/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-06 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Apr 06 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  8. # [00:14] <annevk> it also makes sense for internal consistency, imo
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  10. # [00:37] <Philip`> How come nobody uses IE's datasrc/datafld thing?
  11. # [00:40] <Philip`> Oh, some people do use it
  12. # [00:41] <Philip`> but only, like, two people in 2^17
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  14. # [00:48] <Hixie> yeah <t:video>
  15. # [00:48] <Hixie> people don't use many of IE's weird extensions, it's kind of funny
  16. # [00:48] <Hixie> is there a faster way to parse an xml file into a DOM in python than xml.dom.minidom.parse() ?
  17. # [00:51] <hober> I think lxml is faster
  18. # [00:52] <Hixie> k
  19. # [00:52] <Hixie> thx
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  21. # [00:55] <jgraham_> lxml != DOM
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  23. # [00:55] <Philip`> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cbody%3E%0D%0A%3Cxml%20id%3Dx%3E%0D%0A%3Cr%3E%0D%0A%20%3Ci%3E%3Ca%3ECheese%3C%2Fa%3E%3Cb%3E250g%3C%2Fb%3E%3C%2Fi%3E%0D%0A%20%3Ci%3E%3Ca%3ERhino%3C%2Fa%3E%3Cb%3E3%20tbsp%3C%2Fb%3E%3C%2Fi%3E%0D%0A%3C%2Fr%3E%0D%0A%3C%2Fxml%3E%0D%0A%0D%0A%3Ctable%20datasrc%3D%23x%3E%0D%0A%20%20%3Ctr%3E%0D%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctd%3E%3Cdiv%20datafld%3Da%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E%0D%0A%20%20%20%20%3Ctd%3E%3Cdiv%20datafld%3Db%3E%3C%2Fd
  24. # [00:55] <Philip`> It's not even that hard to use or anything
  25. # [00:56] <jgraham_> (it depends if you want a real DOM or if some other representation will do. If you do want a real DOM minidom still isn't a good choice)
  26. # [00:57] <Philip`> (Oops, got cut off...)
  27. # [00:58] <Philip`> (but the bit that got cut off is obvious, so fix it yourself if you care)
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  29. # [01:08] <Dashiva> Should add an automatic tinyurl-generator to the dom viewer
  30. # [01:09] <Philip`> I suppose it doesn't help that IE's documentation talks about DSOs with OLE DB APIs and binding agents, instead of giving simple examples that work
  31. # [01:11] <Philip`> Also they give a totally excellent example with "<H1 ID=COMPSR_FIRST>Hector</H1> <MARQUEE ID=COMPSR_LAST>Berlioz</MARQUEE> ... <TEXTAREA ID=COMPSR_FIRST>Franz</TEXTAREA> <XMP ID=COMPSR_LAST>Liszt</XMP> ..."
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  42. # [02:51] <Hixie> if i have two text files, and one has a marker in it which i want to replace with the other text file, is there some easy way to do that?
  43. # [02:52] <Philip`> I think sed can do that
  44. # [02:53] <Dashiva> There's also python, perl, etc with a read/replace/write
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  46. # [02:54] <Hixie> aha!
  47. # [02:54] <Hixie> sed '/INCLUDE/ r file' <in >out
  48. # [02:55] * Philip` was just trying to find that in the man page :-)
  49. # [02:55] <Hixie> the sed manpage is abysmal
  50. # [02:55] <Philip`> It seems a little more complex if you want to delete the marker
  51. # [02:55] <Hixie> sed '/INCLUDE/ { r file d
  52. # [02:55] <Hixie> }'
  53. # [02:55] <Hixie> with newlines
  54. # [02:56] <Dashiva> A lot of the basic tool man pages seem to assume you already know how the program works...
  55. # [02:57] <Philip`> The newline thing makes sed really awkward to use on the command line
  56. # [02:58] <Philip`> Much easier to do perl -ne'print /INCLUDE/ ? `cat file` : $_' in
  57. # [02:58] <Hixie> yeah but i'm trying to learn new tools
  58. # [02:59] <Philip`> If you want to do that, you could write a VB.NET program that uses COM to make Word open a file and replace text
  59. # [03:02] <Hixie> i'm on a unix system
  60. # [03:03] <Philip`> Do it over rdesktop
  61. # [03:04] <Hixie> &CounterClockwiseContourIntegral
  62. # [03:04] <Hixie> what a name
  63. # [03:05] <Philip`> Please allow a synonym &AntiClockwiseContourIntegral
  64. # [03:05] <Hixie> hah
  65. # [03:05] <Hixie> &FilledVerySmallSquare;
  66. # [03:05] <Hixie> i wish i was making these up
  67. # [03:06] <Philip`> It'd be better to just add &{ANTICLOCKWISE CONTOUR INTEGRAL} allowing standard Unicode names, instead of making up a new list of names for characters
  68. # [03:07] <Philip`> Unicode only seems to have SMALL SQUAREs and MEDIUM SMALL SQUAREs
  69. # [03:07] <Hixie> U+025AA
  70. # [03:07] <Dashiva> A large square probably wouldn't fit in a single glyph :)
  71. # [03:08] <Philip`> U+25AA BLACK SMALL SQUARE
  72. # [03:08] <Philip`> (says gucharmap, at least)
  73. # [03:09] <Philip`> Oh, the MathML table already says that too
  74. # [03:09] <Philip`> (<http://www.w3.org/TR/MathML2/mmlextra.html>)
  75. # [03:13] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#entities
  76. # [03:13] <Hixie> sigh
  77. # [03:14] <Philip`> Ooh, non-BMP characters - that's going to make things funner
  78. # [03:15] <Philip`> (although I suppose most of the non-BMP problems I've seen are in the JSON test harnesses, and those should be fixed already)
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  115. # [08:46] <Pavlov> anyone know if any browsers support font-stretch?
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  134. # [11:18] <annevk> shouldn't COPY come before COPY; ?
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  136. # [11:26] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-doctypes-960302
  137. # [11:36] <annevk> seems Dan has been doing the URI thing for 12 years now :)
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  139. # [11:36] <annevk> at least
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  141. # [11:40] <annevk> heh, that document mentions <!doctype html>
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  145. # [12:05] <zcorpan_> "A start tag whose tag name is "svg", if the current node is an annotation-xml element in the MathML namespace." hmm, shouldn't that be / whose tag name is "svg"// ?
  146. # [12:05] * zcorpan_ forgot the s in s///
  147. # [12:06] <annevk> no, because then <apply/> elements and all would end up in the wrong namespace
  148. # [12:06] <zcorpan_> ah
  149. # [12:07] <zcorpan_> so you can't put html in annotation-xml
  150. # [12:07] <annevk> yes
  151. # [12:08] * hsivonen notes that it would be trivial to support all the four know vocabularies by dispatching on encoding='...'
  152. # [12:08] <hsivonen> s/know/known/
  153. # [12:08] <zcorpan_> was that a yes as in "correct" or a yes as in "yes you can"
  154. # [12:08] <annevk> as in, yes you can't put html in annotation-xml
  155. # [12:08] <zcorpan_> ok
  156. # [12:09] <annevk> hsivonen, I'm not really sure why we bother for SVG even... annotation-xml should just be non-conforming :)
  157. # [12:10] <hsivonen> annevk: depends on how much we want to push our opinions on the MathML folks
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  159. # [12:13] <annevk> It seemed to me that the MathML folks cared about content MathML and that's taken care of
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  163. # [12:16] <annevk> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/2005-09-01/#parsing :)
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  169. # [12:51] <annevk> the SVG fixups magic has to happen in "in body" too
  170. # [12:51] <annevk> s/fixups/fixup/
  171. # [12:51] <annevk> same for xmlns for both SVG and MathML
  172. # [12:51] <annevk> and xml:* maybe
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  185. # [15:17] * gsnedders feels dumb
  186. # [15:18] * gsnedders can't think how to write an SQL query
  187. # [15:18] * gsnedders then realises that it would be pointless data to get
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  189. # [15:23] * gsnedders wonders whether to delete headers for URIs that already exist
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  191. # [15:26] <gsnedders> I need average number of each name field for each value of the uri header
  192. # [15:38] <hsivonen> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/xhtml/20080402#l-139 What meeting??
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  197. # [15:59] <annevk> is it acceptable in a humor context to frame the opposite of "foreign land" as "promised land"?
  198. # [16:00] <hsivonen> those aren't opposites
  199. # [16:01] <annevk> true
  200. # [16:02] <annevk> guess i'll use "home safe" as in the irc logs
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  202. # [16:12] <hsivonen> looks like I could roughly double the Validator.nu performance by zapping Schematron...
  203. # [16:14] <gsnedders> An amazing number of pages send a content-location header for something that is ignored.
  204. # [16:14] * Lachy_ is now known as Lachy
  205. # [16:15] <hsivonen> gsnedders: automatic Apache feature
  206. # [16:18] <gsnedders> hsivonen: in what version? in what cases?
  207. # [16:18] <hsivonen> gsnedders: any version, multiviews enabled
  208. # [16:18] <hsivonen> IIRC
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  210. # [16:22] <annevk> HTML5 "propaganda" (well and for my weblog :p ): http://annevankesteren.nl/2008/04/html5-foreign
  211. # [16:23] <annevk> since not everything on the list seems to reach the world outside I'm interested in what people will say
  212. # [16:23] <roc> "/> is no longer a token of faith"
  213. # [16:23] <roc> what does that mean?
  214. # [16:24] <gsnedders> roc: it is suitable for atheists for foreign elements :P
  215. # [16:24] <annevk> I think at some point there was a remark in HTML5 for <br/> syntax that the / was a token of faith
  216. # [16:24] <gsnedders> roc: the spec used to say the solidus was a token of faith
  217. # [16:24] <annevk> because it's equivalent to <br>
  218. # [16:24] <roc> ookay
  219. # [16:25] <hsivonen> hmm... http://www.w3.org/2008/03/validators-chart
  220. # [16:25] <gsnedders> roc: "Then, if the element is one of the void elements, then there may be a single U+002F SOLIDUS (/) character. This character has no effect except to appease the markup gods. As this character is therefore just a symbol of faith, atheists should omit it."
  221. # [16:25] <gsnedders> roc: http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080122/#start
  222. # [16:25] <roc> hmmm
  223. # [16:25] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah, I don't get their DOCTYPE endorsements and why non well-formed application/xhtml+xml would be HTML5...
  224. # [16:26] <roc> I'm not sure making HTML elements terminate the math context is the right move
  225. # [16:26] <roc> I sure hope <svg><foreignObject><p> doesn't escape
  226. # [16:26] <annevk> ah, yes, that still works
  227. # [16:26] <annevk> I should clarify that
  228. # [16:26] <roc> and to be honest I'd like to retain the option of <svg><p> 'working'
  229. # [16:27] <gsnedders> hsivonen: cases of that seem to outnumber those that are the infamous IIS bug
  230. # [16:27] <roc> although that's not as important as solving this issue, so good work
  231. # [16:27] <annevk> roc, I think that if a major UA like Firefox is willing to do that it might be fine, the fear is mostly breaking pages
  232. # [16:32] <roc> we're known to be less afraid of breaking pages than some other UAs :-)
  233. # [16:33] <annevk> I added: "The MathML elements mi, mo, mn, ms, and mtext and the SVG elements foreignObject, desc, and title provide bridges so that the aforementioned magic list of HTML element names can be nested safely inside SVG and MathML (in the HTML namespace, too). They also allow for SVG in MathML and vice versa."
  234. # [16:34] <hsivonen> annevk: :-( re: the TAG minutes you linked to
  235. # [16:35] <annevk> bikeshed coming up
  236. # [16:35] <annevk> but yeah
  237. # [16:35] <hsivonen> a huge, huge, bikeshed
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  240. # [16:37] <hsivonen> as an aside, the economists say decisions shouldn't be based on sunk cost...
  241. # [16:37] <annevk> I'm reading a book on recent Africa history and it has this chapter titled "The Passing of the Old Guard" which sounded familiar
  242. # [16:38] <annevk> hsivonen, what do you mean?
  243. # [16:39] <hsivonen> annevk: when deciding a course of action, the cost of what you've done already shouldn't matter per se. the cost from where you are now to anticipated decisions consequences should matter, though
  244. # [16:39] <hsivonen> annevk: example:
  245. # [16:40] <hsivonen> the amount of money that has been put into SVG in browsers is not the point when adopting SVG for HTML. The point is that using what SVG functionality there already is to implement SVG-in-text/html is less costly than starting from scratch
  246. # [16:41] <hsivonen> so the effort the W3C has put into XML should not matter
  247. # [16:41] <hsivonen> the cost from getting from the current state of adoption to somewhere we want to go should be considered instead
  248. # [16:42] <hsivonen> and the cost of replacing text/html with something else would still be huge
  249. # [16:42] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-44-37-113.range217-44.btcentralplus.com)
  250. # [16:42] <annevk> lets use that and others when it comes to the anticipated clash
  251. # [16:46] <hsivonen> http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/CamelsandRubberDuckies.html
  252. # [16:49] <hsivonen> also: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000018.html
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  263. # [17:33] <hsivonen> annevk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunk_cost#Loss_aversion_and_the_sunk_cost_fallacy
  264. # [17:38] <gsnedders> Philip`: adding the extra headers (bringing the database to just over 1.1 million headers) has changed the result set quite a bi
  265. # [17:38] <gsnedders> *Bit
  266. # [17:40] <Philip`> gsnedders: I imagine the changes come from e.g. most of cnn.com being removed from dmoz
  267. # [17:40] <gsnedders> Philip`: just plain removed from dmoz, or…?
  268. # [17:40] <gsnedders> Philip`: filtered out?
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  270. # [17:43] <Philip`> gsnedders: Removed from the data published by dmoz.org
  271. # [17:43] <gsnedders> Philip`: k
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  273. # [17:44] <hsivonen> http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=concorde+fallacy
  274. # [17:44] <hsivonen> interesting stuff
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  277. # [18:00] <gsnedders> for those interested in some basic HTTP data before I have a full UI: <http://pastebin.ca/974108>
  278. # [18:00] <annevk> hsivonen, cool stuff
  279. # [18:05] <gsnedders> hah! Lovely misuse of the Server header: Powered By Pure Caffeine
  280. # [18:05] <gsnedders> I actually found that by looking at the page that has a "Main source of energy" header
  281. # [18:06] <gsnedders> Main source of energy: Running on beer & pizza!
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  296. # [19:40] * weinig|zZz is now known as weinig
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  303. # [20:14] <annevk> http://www.netsurf-browser.org/ is interesting
  304. # [20:16] * webben has that installed somewhere
  305. # [20:16] <webben> it's not half-bad, but needs more CSS support IIRC
  306. # [20:17] <annevk> it's cool that they're implementing HTML5 parsing
  307. # [20:17] <annevk> http://www.netsurf-browser.org/projects/hubbub/
  308. # [20:17] <annevk> though http://source.netsurf-browser.org/trunk/hubbub/ is broken
  309. # [20:17] * Joins: wakaba_ (n=w@201.162.210.220.dy.bbexcite.jp)
  310. # [20:18] <webben> neat :)
  311. # [20:28] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-67-160-251-228.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
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  313. # [20:33] <annevk> hmm, I tried e-mailing but the list seems moderated
  314. # [20:33] * annevk tries John-Mark Bell
  315. # [20:34] <webben> annevk: I see your email.
  316. # [20:34] <annevk> interesting
  317. # [20:35] <annevk> that's slightly weird
  318. # [20:35] <webben> maybe the list indexy thing just hasn't updated yet
  319. # [20:35] <annevk> well, it's there too, but the weird thing is the e-mail I got
  320. # [20:35] <annevk> saying I could still cancel the posting and all :)
  321. # [20:36] <webben> hmm. strange
  322. # [20:37] <annevk> either they're really prompt or the moderating system fails
  323. # [20:38] <webben> I guess you could write a 2nd email about /that/
  324. # [20:38] <webben> see if it happens a second time
  325. # [20:39] <annevk> ah, got a reply, there is some moderation apparently
  326. # [20:39] <webben> I don't understand how I saw your email so fast if there's moderation.
  327. # [20:39] <webben> just luck a mod checked their inbox at that moment?
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  338. # [21:25] <annevk> Another C HTML5 parser (not complete): http://vlists.pepperfish.net/pipermail/netsurf-dev-netsurf-browser.org/2008-April/000398.html
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  341. # [21:27] <gsnedders> peh! Real-life!
  342. # [21:28] <annevk> didn't you know? all HTML5 parsers are written in VL
  343. # [21:28] <gsnedders> VL?
  344. # [21:35] <csarven> Is VL short for VRML? :)
  345. # [21:36] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  346. # [21:36] <annevk> RL <-> VL
  347. # [21:36] * annevk thought it was obvious :)
  348. # [21:41] <csarven> heh.. is it VL or VR?
  349. # [21:54] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
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  360. # [23:27] <annevk> hehe, Flash evangelists are "attacking" HTML5: http://aralbalkan.com/1305
  361. # [23:28] * qwert666__ is now known as qwert666
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  363. # [23:39] * jgraham discovers that using a full programming language as a configuration format is not conducive to helping noobs who don't understand that language
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  365. # [23:45] <annevk> Shelley makes no sense to me
  366. # [23:45] <annevk> she thanks me for the summary but then starts flaming based on misguided assumptions about a discussion she claims she didn't follow
  367. # [23:50] <annevk> heh, RDF fanatics use " and <em> for quotes
  368. # [23:50] <annevk> there goes the semantic Web
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  370. # [23:57] <annevk> Hixie, heh, working on those 600+ e-mail reply now?
  371. # Session Close: Mon Apr 07 00:00:00 2008

The end :)