/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-21 / end

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# Session Start: Mon Apr 21 00:00:00 2008
# Session Ident: #whatwg
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# [00:34] <annevk> Hixie, requiring title= on <abbr> is silly
# [00:34] <Hixie> using <abbr> without title="" is silly
# [00:35] <Hixie> like using <a> without href=""
# [00:35] <annevk> you use <abbr> without title in the e-mail you sent
# [00:35] <annevk> '<a href="#dhd"><abbr>DHD</abbr></a>'
# [00:35] <annevk> <a> without href is allowed
# [00:35] <Hixie> yeah i wrote that before i changed the spec
# [00:35] <Hixie> yes, <a> is a poor analogy
# [00:36] <Hixie> but it's basically only allowed for placeholders
# [00:36] <Hixie> which makes no sense for <abbr>
# [00:36] <annevk> i use <abbr> without title all the time
# [00:36] <Hixie> why?
# [00:36] <annevk> to indicate it's an abbreviation and not a word
# [00:36] <Hixie> for the sake of it?
# [00:36] <Hixie> isn't it obvious?
# [00:37] <Lachy> do screen readers read things differently if they are marked up as <abbr>, even without title=""?
# [00:37] <annevk> most of the time it probably is, though i wonder if it's worth making all that content non-conforming
# [00:37] <Hixie> i'm sure the 6 people using <abbr> will be devastated
# [00:37] <othermaciej> <pronoun>it</pronoun> <verb>seems</verb> <adjective>obvious</adjective>
# [00:38] <Lachy> IIRC, Joe Clark recommends using <abbr> without title for repeated occurrences of an abbreviation.
# [00:39] <roc> I had a paper rejected by the FOOL workshop
# [00:39] <Hixie> i often disagree with joe clark
# [00:40] <Lachy> so do I, but I agreed with him in this case cause it's more convenient
# [00:40] <Hixie> more convenient than not using the element at all??
# [00:41] <Dashiva> othermaciej: you should be using rdf
# [00:41] <annevk> Hixie, there's no harm in allowing <abbr> without title=""
# [00:41] <Lachy> Hixie, it depends if there are legitimate advantages to using it
# [00:42] <Hixie> the main use case for <abbr> is to provide expansions. by making title="" required, we help authors who use validators catch the occurances where they forgot to provide the expansion.
# [00:42] <Lachy> I'm not saying there are such advantages, but I'm no expert on the UAs that would potentially benefit most from it
# [00:44] <Hixie> as i said in the mail, speech synthesis technology these days is quite capable of determining what's an abbreviation and reading it without annotation, and the times where they are most likely to need <abbr> markup to help them (e.g. all-caps headlines), authors are unlikely to be providing it anyway.
# [00:45] <Lachy> I haven't read the mail yet :-)
# [00:45] <annevk> it's one of the reasons my weblog has the ability for markup in headings
# [00:46] <annevk> though admittedly i don't seem to be using it for <abbr> too much these days
# [00:47] <annevk> I've also stuff like only giving the first <abbr> thingie a title and not later on in the page
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# [00:48] <Lachy> I was just expecting you to fix the bugs with the cross-referencing, not remove it entirely
# [00:48] <annevk> there have been recommendations to that effect in the past
# [00:50] <Hixie> Lachy: heh
# [00:51] <Hixie> i think the cross-referencing idea was just me getting a little too happy
# [00:51] <Hixie> <a href=""> handles it fine in practice
# [00:54] <othermaciej> the cross-referencing was overly complex as designed
# [00:54] <othermaciej> it does seem like a cute feature if a simpler version turns out to be useful
# [00:57] <annevk> the main use case would be spec writing
# [00:59] <othermaciej> I do wonder if there are other use cases
# [00:59] <othermaciej> because if something is only good for technical specifications then that's not a very broad use case
# [00:59] <Philip`> I suppose there's a danger of spec writers writing specs that are biased towards helping spec writers
# [01:01] <Dashiva> Would normative be an element or an attribute?
# [01:01] * jgraham is still wishes it was easy to reference numbered figures and tables in html
# [01:01] <Lachy> Hixie, where you wrote this in the email: "It seems like we'd want to allow, e.g., a link to a list of instances of the term."
# [01:01] <Lachy> "I have defined the opposite, though ..." - where exactly in the spec did you define that? It's not clear to me.
# [01:01] <Philip`> I also suppose most specs get processed to generate the final published HTML version, so they can use whatever non-standard features they like in the source format and have the tools implement the conversion
# [01:03] <jgraham> (with the numbers auto-updating as you add more figures and tables of course)
# [01:03] <Philip`> jgraham: That sounds like it'd be a bit of a pain to do incremental rendering prettily, whenever you have forward references
# [01:03] <Hixie> Lachy: what's the context again? i forget
# [01:03] <annevk> jgraham, CSS should solve that, the markup should simply be pointers...
# [01:03] <annevk> (not that it's entirely clear to me how exactly CSS needs to solve it yet)
# [01:05] <Lachy> Hixie, in the mail, the quote from me beginning with "*Definitions with Links*"
# [01:06] * Hixie goes to find the mail
# [01:06] <Hixie> Lachy: oh
# [01:06] <Hixie> Lachy: dfn dection
# [01:07] <Hixie> section even
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# [01:09] <Lachy> that's what I thought, but I couldn't see anything in the spec that was the opposite of what I had suggested
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# [01:13] <Facedown> do you guys normally prefer validator.nu over w3?
# [01:13] <Facedown> or do you use both?
# [01:14] * Philip` normally uses neither, and writes invalid code
# [01:15] <Facedown> s/sarcasm//g
# [01:16] <Philip`> (That is what I really do :-) )
# [01:16] <jgraham> Philip`: Knowing why it's non trivial to do doesn't make not having it any easier :)
# [01:16] <Lachy> Facedown, if I'm writing HTML5, I use validator.nu. If I'm writing HTML4, I use w3
# [01:18] <Facedown> is there a disadvantage of validator.nu when in combo with html 4.01 strict? which i use
# [01:18] <Facedown> theres no preset for html 4, but there is a parser
# [01:20] <Lachy> The only issue is that validator.nu is still a work in progress, so it's possible that it won't be 100% accurate yet. Though, these days, it could probably be considered reliable enough
# [01:20] <Philip`> jgraham: You could easily write an HTML preprocessor, and do all the non-trivial stuff before publishing since it'll be trivial when you don't have to worry about browsers doing it
# [01:21] <Philip`> validator.w3.org isn't 100% accurate either, so it's more useful to compare their actual accuracy and not just the boolean of whether they're at 100%
# [01:21] <Lachy> Facedown, hsivonen would be the best person to ask about it
# [01:21] <Philip`> (but I have no idea how you would quantify their accuracy, so that's a bit useless)
# [01:22] <Facedown> I just wish it was illegal for having optional end tags on elements that need end tags in html 4.01 strict
# [01:22] <Facedown> in other words, i would want it to give me an error for missing an end tag since its still 'Strict'
# [01:22] <Lachy> Facedown, what?
# [01:22] <jgraham> Philip`: By coming up with a large testsuite of docs with errors and seeing what fraction of the errors they identify
# [01:22] <Facedown> <p>test
# [01:22] <Lachy> The <p> element doesn't need an end tag in HTML 4.01 though, so what you said didn't make sense
# [01:23] <Facedown> that's what i'm talking about
# [01:23] <Facedown> the spec/rules themselves for html 4
# [01:23] <Facedown> at least, 4.01 strict
# [01:23] <Lachy> but what advantage is there?
# [01:23] <jgraham> Facedown: That sounds more like a lint or something to enforce a set of style guidelines
# [01:23] <Facedown> it would make sense to make <p>foo legal in 4.01 transitional, and <p>foo illegal in 4.01 strict imo
# [01:24] <Lachy> the rules for implying an end tag are well defined and implemented (at least for <p>)
# [01:25] <Lachy> but you're ignoring the reasons for why it was made optional to begin with: convenience for authors
# [01:25] <Facedown> oh it's just p.. i assumed it was the majority of block level elements
# [01:25] <Lachy> there are several elements with optional tags
# [01:25] <Lachy> thead, tbody, tfoot, p, html, head, body
# [01:26] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-writing0.html#optional probably mostly matches HTML4
# [01:27] <Lachy> here's a more convenient reference for HTML4's optional tags http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/index/elements.html
# [01:27] <Facedown> ah ty, Lachy.. i was going through elementby element
# [01:28] <Lachy> LOL
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# [01:28] <Facedown> lol.
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# [01:29] <Hixie> Lachy: "An a element that links to a dfn element represents an instance of the term defined by the dfn element.
# [01:29] <Facedown> what text editors do you guys use?
# [01:30] <Hixie> "
# [01:30] <Facedown> i've moved from dw8 to vim like 6 months ago, glad i did
# [01:30] <Facedown> can't live without vim now
# [01:31] <Hixie> emacs baby
# [01:32] <Facedown> were you ever at one time a vi user?
# [01:32] <Hixie> no
# [01:32] <Facedown> i haven't tried emacs
# [01:32] <Lachy> I use TextMate now
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# [01:32] <Lachy> emacs, vi and vim are for crazy people
# [01:32] <Facedown> heh
# [01:33] <Facedown> lachy - if you had 20 lines of text that you had to make a list items out of , how would you do it?
# [01:33] <Philip`> I mostly use the default KDE text editor KPart which doesn't seem to even have a real name
# [01:33] <Facedown> assuming we were on line 5
# [01:33] <Facedown> assuming there are <ul> and </ul> at the top and bottom
# [01:33] <Facedown> of these 20 lines of text
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# [01:34] <Hixie> esc-ctrl-s ^$.+$$ ENTER <li>\1</li> ENTER !
# [01:34] <Philip`> Facedown: Copy-and-paste, which would take about ten seconds and zero brainpower
# [01:34] <Facedown> the copy is not the same for each of the lines
# [01:35] <Facedown> its unique copy
# [01:35] <Facedown> if you're saying copy the same thing over and over
# [01:35] <Philip`> I mean I'd copy the "<li>" and paste it on each line
# [01:35] <Facedown> ah
# [01:35] <Facedown> 10 seconds? would seem like 15 to me
# [01:35] <Facedown> we're tabbing at least once, right?
# [01:36] <Philip`> Brainpower should be expended on content, not on writing one-off scripts for your text editor :-)
# [01:36] <Facedown> but what if you don't have to think about it
# [01:36] <Facedown> if you're used to it
# [01:36] <Facedown> i'm a beginner in vim so i still have to think about it for now
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# [01:37] <Facedown> qaI<li><esc>A</li><esc>j@20 i think is how it would work in vim
# [01:37] <Facedown> i would record myself going to the start of the line, before the very first character and typing <li> then going to the end of the string and typing </li> and repeat that 19 more times
# [01:37] <Facedown> i just dont see how id survive on a normal text editor now
# [01:37] <Facedown> using a mouse you'd have to make sure you point it before the first character for every line and the end
# [01:38] <Philip`> Instead of remembering all the Vim commands, I'd remember that </li> was optional so I could save time by omitting it :-)
# [01:38] <Facedown> hah
# [01:38] <heycam> :.,+19s/.*/<li>&<\/li>/
# [01:38] <Facedown> oh.. an alternative to recording it? mm
# [01:38] <Philip`> Write "<li>", shift-home, ctrl-c, down-arrow, {ctrl-v, down-arrow, home}+
# [01:39] <heycam> yeah, run that substitution from the currently line to 19 lines down
# [01:39] <Facedown> Philip` - i used to do it exactly the same way.
# [01:39] <Facedown> EXACTLy that way.. wow
# [01:39] <Facedown> but if you had to include the end tag, it'd be more of a hassle
# [01:40] <Philip`> Then just do exactly the same, with 'end' instead of 'home'
# [01:40] <Facedown> since you have to reach the first character of the line and thats a little harer than if you dont have to worry about the end tag
# [01:40] <Facedown> right but like
# [01:40] <Facedown> going to and fro
# [01:40] <Facedown> unless you do all the beginning tags first
# [01:40] <Facedown> you'd only have one of them to paste
# [01:40] <Facedown> i might have just pasted the <li> and insert the / at the end for end tags
# [01:41] <Facedown> so paste the <li> before and after, and manually insert the '/' when i'm done
# [01:41] <Lachy> Facedown, I select all the lines, and use the option to wrap each line in an open/close tag (which defaults to li)
# [01:41] <Facedown> doh, heh;)
# [01:41] <Philip`> Do all the <li> first, then all the </li>, since it's much easier to repeat short actions lots of times than a longer action fewer times
# [01:42] <Facedown> so <li>shift home ctrl c down arrow ctrl v for the next 19 lines and go to the first <li> and ctrl end, </li> and paste the '</li>' with ctrl end and ctrl v
# [01:42] <Facedown> that's how i would have done it in dreamweaver
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# [01:43] <Facedown> down arrow, ctrl end, ctrl v
# [01:43] <Lachy> in Dreamweaver, I switch to WYSIWYG mode, highlight the text, click the UL button, and then move the cursor to the beginning of each new point and press enter
# [01:44] <Philip`> If I was lazy and there were lots of lines, I'd probably do perl -ne'print "<li>$_</li>\n"' and copy/paste the text through that
# [01:44] <Lachy> but TextMate's Cmd+Ctrl+Shift+W is easier
# [01:44] <Philip`> (and then I'd probably do it again with chomp)
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# [01:52] <Lachy> Hixie, in what way were people confused about the name <meter>?
# [01:54] <Hixie> people keep thinking it means "number and unit"
# [01:54] <Hixie> they think you can do <meter>5cm</meter>
# [01:55] <Lachy> oh, stupid people.
# [01:56] <Facedown> do pseudo-classes such as :link :visited and :active still have no effect on anything but anchors? (not talking about :hover since i know that can go for any element)
# [01:56] <Lachy> <indicator> wouldn't be too bad, but it's a bit long.
# [01:57] <Lachy> I think the problems with the name <meter> will subside once we get an actual implementation and people see what it does
# [01:57] <Lachy> I mean, it's no where near as confusing as, for example, <address> has been over the years.
# [01:58] <Facedown> oh man.. i'm still confused on address
# [01:58] <Lachy> Facedown, just remember that <address> is not to be used for marking up addresses, and you'll be fine.
# [01:58] <Facedown> that was sarcastic, right? heh..
# [01:59] <Facedown> i know theres a w3 definition that says it should only be used to markup the address of the author of the page or something
# [01:59] <Lachy> sort of
# [01:59] <Facedown> and if you have like lists of houses you shouldn't mark the addresses up with <address>
# [01:59] <Lachy> yeah, a better name for it would have been <contact>
# [01:59] <Facedown> if its a hotel site and an address for the hotel, im using <address>
# [02:00] <Facedown> to contact the hotel that is
# [02:03] <Philip`> I don't like <indicator> since it's not at all obvious what it's indicating
# [02:03] <Philip`> and also "indicator" makes me think of flashing orange lights on cars
# [02:03] <Lachy> Philip`, no, that's what <blink> is for
# [02:04] <Facedown> haha
# [02:04] <Philip`> Lachy: In that specific case, I think I'd be happier in a car that's made of steel rather than HTML
# [02:05] <Philip`> Web browsers have a habit of crashing every few days
# [02:06] <Lachy> ok. I'm happy with my HTML-mobile.
# [02:06] <Lachy> it drives me around the web quite well
# [02:07] <Lachy> of course, my preferred HTML-mobile is the Lynx. :-)
# [02:09] <Philip`> Why not just use <gauge>, and define <guage> as a synonym?
# [02:09] <Lachy> because gauge is a terrible name
# [02:09] <Philip`> (assuming that's the misspelling that people will make)
# [02:10] <Lachy> Philip`, it will be common, just like people misspell language as langauge
# [02:11] <Philip`> http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/attr/langauge vs http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/attr/language - it's not that common an error
# [02:11] <Lachy> hmm. I thought Hixie's stats had shown it was a bit more common
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# [02:12] <Lachy> but maybe I remmber incorrectly
# [02:12] <Philip`> Fortunately his stats are unverifiable, so you can just ignore them as being bad science
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# [02:13] <Lachy> LOL
# [02:20] * Philip` still really needs to find a way to scale that analyse.cgi to sixteen times as much data, and preferably with more ways of looking at the data (e.g. seeing common attribute values)
# [02:22] <Lachy> Philip`, if I ran your scripts on my computer and send you the results, would that help?
# [02:23] <Hixie> the language thing i found was that there were many many many misspellings of language=""
# [02:24] <Philip`> Lachy: The problem is doing the real-time web interface to the data, since it tends to require some tradeoff of disk space and processing time and cleverness
# [02:26] <Philip`> Ah, http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/survey/2007-07-17/analyse.cgi/tag/script does have quite a few different errors
# [02:26] <Philip`> (languaje, langage, maybe lang, ...)
# [02:26] <Hixie> yeah people just can't spell that attribute to save their life
# [02:26] <Philip`> Is it worse than any other attribute?
# [02:27] <Hixie> yes
# [02:27] <Hixie> far worse
# [02:27] <Hixie> width and height get a few misspellings
# [02:27] <Hixie> but e.g. type doesn't get many at all
# [02:27] <Hixie> at least iirc
# [02:27] <Hixie> bbiab food
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# [03:05] <takkaria> CSS3 columns are pretty useless for real content
# [03:05] <takkaria> orphaned headings are a real no-no
# [03:07] <takkaria> oh, it does have them now
# [03:09] <takkaria> how useful. :)
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# [03:15] <takkaria> shame gecko doesn't implement them, though
# [03:22] <jruderman> takkaria: gecko sorta implements parts (-moz-column-count, -moz-column-width
# [03:22] <jruderman> takkaria: i'm not a big fan of the implementation, as roc or dbaron can attest ;)
# [03:26] <Facedown> anyone experienced with inline-block layouts?
# [03:27] <Facedown> if so, how are they compared to floats? of course, on any browser other than gecko based
# [03:27] <jruderman> of course?
# [03:27] <Facedown> since ff2 doesnt support inline-block
# [03:27] <Facedown> not the proprietary property -moz-inline-box or whatever they have
# [03:27] <jruderman> ff3 does
# [03:27] <Facedown> your point?
# [03:28] <Facedown> ff3 hasn't been released and ff2 is the most popular gecko browser
# [03:28] <Facedown> or are you going to tell me to get the beta 5
# [03:28] <jruderman> beta 5? no, that's old, get a nightly :P
# [03:28] <jruderman> j/k, beta 5 is fine
# [03:29] <Facedown> but really, gecko doesnt support it.. as in, the majority of gecko browsers in use on earth
# [03:29] <Facedown> that's what i meant
# [03:29] <jruderman> ok
# [03:29] <takkaria> jruderman: yeah it seems to work almost well enough, just not quite actually well enough. :)
# [03:30] <jruderman> i don't see how an older version of gecko not supporting inline-block is relevant to answering the question "how are they compared to floats", but i guess i don't really understand the question anyway, since i mostly use CSS to crash things rather than build web pages with pretty layout
# [03:32] <jruderman> inline-block can go anywhere in a line whereas floats can only go at the left or right, correct?
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# [03:41] <othermaciej> floats don't really go in a line per se
# [03:41] <othermaciej> I mean
# [03:42] <othermaciej> they intrude into several lines but are really owned by the containing block
# [03:42] <othermaciej> an inline-block is in a specific place on the line
# [03:43] <othermaciej> I don't think there are many places where they are interchangeabe
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# [05:37] <MikeSmith> Hixie, does the spec yet define what a "browsing context keyword" is?
# [05:39] <Hixie> yes
# [05:39] <Hixie> or rather
# [05:39] <Hixie> no
# [05:39] <Hixie> because that term is never used
# [05:40] <Hixie> but the term "browsing context name or keyword" is defined
# [05:44] <MikeSmith> Hixie, OK, I see now, "A valid browsing context name or keyword is any string that is either a valid browsing context name or that case-insensitively matches one of: _self, _parent, or _top."
# [05:44] <MikeSmith> so that seems to implicitly define a keyword as "_self, _parent, or _top"
# [05:44] <MikeSmith> is that right?
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# [05:46] <Hixie> i guess
# [05:47] <Hixie> the two terms are "browsing context name" and "browsing context name or keyword", i didn't intent there to be a "browsing context keyword" term
# [05:47] <MikeSmith> yeah, I realize that now
# [06:07] <MikeSmith> Hixie, fwiw, it seem like the sentence "The rules for chosing a browsing context given a browsing context name are as follows." should be "The rules for chosing a browsing context given a browsing context name or keyword are as follows."
# [06:07] <Hixie> hm yeah
# [06:07] <Hixie> probably
# [06:07] <Hixie> not a big deal
# [06:08] <Hixie> it reads better the way it's written now
# [06:08] <Hixie> what i really should do is find a word that means "name or keyword"
# [06:09] <MikeSmith> yeah, that would be better
# [06:09] <MikeSmith> "browsing context identifier"?
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# [06:12] <Hixie> maybe
# [06:13] <Hixie> mail the list (or ian@hixie.ch) :-)
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# [08:40] <hsivonen> all caps headlines should be CSS
# [08:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: And I don't like making title required, either
# [08:41] <Hixie> all caps headliens should indeed be css, hence why people who have all caps headlines in the source are the least likely to be giving <abbr> elements
# [08:41] <Hixie> what's the use case for <abbr> without title="", and why is it going to be important enough for us to not help authors using <abbr> to give abbreviation expansions?
# [08:48] <hsivonen> Hixie: abbr itself is relatively unimportant compared to other HTML elements, so it shouldn't as for special attention
# [08:49] <Hixie> i love all my children equally
# [08:49] <hsivonen> as for use case, I'd need to research what UAs actually do with it
# [08:49] <hsivonen> annevk seems to believe it is good for something
# [08:50] <hsivonen> by using it
# [08:50] <hsivonen> unless it's just a talisman use
# [08:51] <jwalden> abbr?
# [08:51] <jwalden> I thought some screen readers expanded it
# [08:52] <jwalden> at least the first time they encountered it in a document
# [08:52] <MikeSmith> jwalden, issue is whether abbr without a title attr is useful or now
# [08:52] <MikeSmith> or not
# [08:52] <MikeSmith> as far as screen-reader use, without title, nothing to expand
# [08:53] <jwalden> I also seem to remember seeing at least one tutorial at some point which suggested using title the first time you had the abbr and then only marking up with <abbr></abbr> the remaining times
# [08:53] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: unless the title is picked up from the first instance as suggested in the IRC log
# [08:53] <jwalden> bingo
# [08:53] <hsivonen> which I doubt considering how AT generally suck
# [08:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen, jwalden - ah, OK, I see
# [08:54] <jwalden> it's convenient for authors, that's for sure
# [08:54] <jwalden> easy for editors to support, too, I think
# [08:55] <jwalden> saves space at the edges
# [08:55] <Hixie> there are lots of people who suggest not giving the title=""
# [08:55] <MikeSmith> yep. also addresses case that mpt mentioned where you don't want to AT app reading the expansion every single time the abbr appears
# [08:55] <Hixie> as far as i can tell, that's just a talisman
# [08:55] * MikeSmith yep'ing what jwalden said earlier
# [08:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: by that logic we should me <cite>, <em> and <var> non-conforming. They are only talisman versions of <i>.
# [08:59] <hsivonen> but probably I shouldn't paint this bikeshed
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# [08:59] <hsivonen> since I really don't know about UA support or non-talisman use cases
# [09:00] <hsivonen> s/me/make/
# [09:01] <Hixie> hsivonen: not all all, those have different styling in different contexts
# [09:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: in that case, there's the use case of styling <abbr>s with small caps without caring about expansion
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# [09:11] <Hixie> does that use case happen enough that it outweighs the benefit of helping people using it to show the expansions?
# [09:13] <hsivonen> I don't know
# [09:14] <hsivonen> I guess we'll have to try changing the validator and see if anne et al change their markup to more useful as a result
# [09:21] <mpt> Are you proposing making title= compulsory for <abbr>?
# [09:22] * mpt reads the logs
# [09:23] <Hixie> read your mail :-)
# [09:23] <mpt> ah
# [09:24] <mpt> Your message shows up as blank for me
# [09:24] <Hixie> ?
# [09:24] <Hixie> odd
# [09:24] <mpt> but I can see the message using View Source
# [09:24] * mpt kicks Thunderbird in the goolies
# [09:24] <Hixie> that makes no sense to me
# [09:29] <mpt> Same problem in Evolution
# [09:29] <mpt> The message headers show, but no body
# [09:31] <mpt> Same problem in Claws Mail
# [09:32] <jwalden> which particular message? wfm in Thunderbird if I'm looking at the same one as you
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# [09:33] <mpt> <Pine.LNX.4.62.0804200415040.14701@hixie.dreamhostps.com>
# [09:33] <mpt> ("Feeedback on <dfn>, <abbr>, and other elements related to cross-references")
# [09:33] <jwalden> shows up for me in...
# [09:33] <jwalden> version 2.0.0.12 (20080213)
# [09:33] <mpt> and the "[whatwg] Feeedback on <dfn>, <abbr>, and other elements related to cross-references" mailing list copy
# [09:36] <mpt> Works in Apple Mail, though
# [09:36] <mpt> Hixie has discovered a way to send e-mail messages that are readable only with proprietary software ;-)
# [09:36] <hsivonen> mpt: oh are you still a closet OS X user? :-)
# [09:37] <Hixie> it's just a text/plain message, no?
# [09:38] <mpt> (though in Apple Mail it has the usual 'This message is in MIME format' and '=20' and '=3D""' poop)
# [09:38] <Hixie> really?
# [09:39] <Hixie> how did it end up in mime format
# [09:39] <mpt> Your starts of threads usually are
# [09:39] <mpt> Your responses usually aren't
# [09:40] <mpt> It purports to be multipart/mixed
# [09:40] <mpt> Do you start threads using different software?
# [09:40] <hsivonen> mpt: does your IMAP server take liberties with the format?
# [09:41] <mpt> Not that I know of
# [09:41] <mpt> ah, I think I've found the problem
# [09:41] <mpt> The message claims multipart/mixed, but then doesn't start with the segment boundary
# [09:42] <mpt> whereas other multipart/mixed messages you send do start with one
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# [09:42] <Hixie> all pine
# [09:43] <Hixie> so i guess we've found a pine bug
# [09:46] <mpt> I have thought it strange before that you send a mixture of multipart/mixed and text/plain messages, but I just assumed that you were using your issue tracker software to start the threads or something
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# [09:47] <Hixie> i am
# [09:47] <Hixie> but since my issues tracking software is pine
# [09:47] <Hixie> that doesn't mean much
# [09:47] <Hixie> :-)
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# [09:48] <Hixie> what do people think of footnotes?
# [09:48] <Hixie> should we add markup for them?
# [09:48] <Hixie> or just use internal links?
# [09:49] <hsivonen> does anyone know of a servlet holder implementation that reads from System.in and writes to System.out?
# [09:52] <mpt> Hixie, how about a special value for target=?
# [09:52] <mpt> Then they can behave just like open-in-another-window links in legacy UAs
# [09:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think footnotes suck on continuous media
# [09:53] <mpt> but in UAs that recognize the value, they can open in a Footnote pane at the bottom of the window.
# [09:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think the solution should render as margin notes on continuous media (<aside>?) and footnotes on paged media
# [09:54] <Hixie> hmm
# [09:54] <mpt> Hixie, and then authors could choose either internal or external links as convenient for them -- they'd work the same way.
# [09:55] <mpt> (That doesn't solve the problem of how, for example, a speech browser should know when to stop when it starts reading a footnote.)
# [09:57] <virtuelv> Hixie: what markup did you have in mind?
# [09:57] <mpt> (But it does avoid solving the problem for footnotes but not for endnotes, or vice versa.)
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# [10:00] <virtuelv> I'm not entirely certain I mean what I'm saying now, but: Aren't footnotes in continuous media a disease?
# [10:01] <virtuelv> Wasn't the the hyperlink invented to avoid having to do hacks like footnotes are?
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# [10:03] <mpt> Sure, but, but, but
# [10:03] <mpt> hyperlinks are "heavy"
# [10:03] <mpt> in that they take you out of your context
# [10:03] <mpt> e.g. to a completely different page
# [10:04] <mpt> You can have internal links, but then it's not obvious how to get back to where you were
# [10:04] <mpt> (you can click Back, but many if not most people assume that Back means "the page I was on previously", because that's what it usually does)
# [10:05] <mpt> So people insert special links to go back from a footnote <http://daringfireball.net/2005/07/footnotes>
# [10:06] <hsivonen> in addition to Gruber, Distler uses footnotes in blogging
# [10:06] <mpt> and they do this in ways that might be obvious to sighted humans using graphical browsers, but not in other situations.
# [10:07] <hsivonen> and the footnotes are de facto emphasis, because reading them requires special scrolling effort
# [10:07] <Hixie> i have no opinion at the moment
# [10:07] <Hixie> i'm trying to work out what to do
# [10:08] <mpt> (see also <http://daringfireball.net/2005/08/notes_on_notes>)
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# [10:10] <zcorpan> Hixie: <map> really needs name='', though i think you still have more feedback on that on your pile (from me and hsivonen)
# [10:11] <Hixie> yeah
# [10:11] <Hixie> i do
# [10:11] <Lachy> Hixie, re your comment about data templates and wf2 repetition in the target attr mail, I agree with removing Data Templates, cause they're overly complicated and confusing, but WF2's repetition model should stay
# [10:11] <Hixie> it's all going
# [10:12] <Hixie> the repetition model sucks, and there's a bazillion ways of doing things like those, all of which have their own good points
# [10:12] <mpt> An <a ... target="_note"> attribute, plus markup to specify where a footnote starts and ends, would give Prince enough information to print footnotes as footnotes (or even sidenotes!) rather than endnotes.
# [10:12] <Hixie> the templates things is better than repetition blocks, anyway, it was designed to replace them
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# [10:13] <Lachy> I know it was designed to replace them, but it sucked cause no-one but you could ever understand it
# [10:13] <annevk> Philip` got some of the details too, iirc
# [10:13] <annevk> But yeah, data templates were complicated
# [10:15] <Lachy> annevk, my theory is that's because Philip` and Hixie are the same person. :-)
# [10:15] <Philip`> ( http://philip.html5.org/demos/datatemplate/experimental/002.html )
# [10:16] <Hixie> data templates are simple, they just needed explaining
# [10:16] <Hixie> they're basically xul templates done right
# [10:16] <Hixie> mpt: with an element for the endpoint of the footnote?
# [10:17] <Hixie> mpt: as in, <a href="#f1" target="footnote">1</a> ... <footnote id=f1>...</footnote> ?
# [10:17] <mpt> Hixie, it wouldn't need to be <footnote>, it could be <div> or <aside> or whatever suited them
# [10:18] <mpt> but otherwise, yes
# [10:18] <hsivonen> Hixie: huh? why are repetition templates going?
# [10:18] <Hixie> that seems... not especially awesome
# [10:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: because they're just one way of many ways to solve the problem, and not an especially good way at that
# [10:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: better to leave that stuff up to the script authors
# [10:18] <Lachy> I would prefer to combine the good parts of data templates (assuming there are any) with the simplicity of repetition templates
# [10:19] <Lachy> doing such stuff with script is difficult to do efficiently
# [10:19] <Hixie> then we should fix that
# [10:19] <Hixie> and put in the infrastructure to allow all the various ways to do this to be done
# [10:19] <Hixie> i've spoken with people who have so many different ways to solve this problem
# [10:19] <hsivonen> Hixie: are we now expecting thin-client distributed mobile browsers to keep enough DOM around on the server to do scripted repetition?
# [10:20] <Hixie> and their solutions are not worse than the specs'
# [10:20] <hsivonen> does Opera Mini handle that already?
# [10:20] <Hixie> hsivonen: if the client doesn't keep enough of the DOM around for this kind of thing, it's not conforming anyway
# [10:21] <hsivonen> Hixie: so we're abandoning the noscript case?
# [10:21] <othermaciej> do any distributed mobile browsers handle script running after the initial page load?
# [10:21] <hsivonen> othermaciej: yes
# [10:21] <othermaciej> then they'd better keep DOM around
# [10:21] <hsivonen> othermaciej: the Validator.nu field inter-dependencies work in Mini
# [10:22] <Hixie> hsivonen: for interactive things like that? yes, you need scripting for the more complicated parts anyway
# [10:22] * hsivonen wonders what the RAM footprint of the entire Opera Mini server farm is
# [10:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: but yeah, I can see that the repetition model would be too simple for many things and authors would easily get into situations that need scripting anyway
# [10:23] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'd be happy not to have data templates
# [10:24] <annevk> I think the repetition model gives a very easy way for authors to duplicate form fields. Something that's currently quite tricky to script. (Tricky enough for me to just use 5 rows instead when I first encountered the issue.)
# [10:24] <mpt> Hixie, I'm not claiming awesomeness, I'm just thinking of my ideal GUI for footnotes and working backwards :-) There might be other markup for implementing the same thing.
# [10:24] <annevk> Now if data templates are effectively the same (I couldn't figure that out) that might be acceptable too...
# [10:25] <Hixie> annevk: the repetition model isn't easy in real scenarios
# [10:25] <Hixie> annevk: in fact it gets really freaking messy
# [10:25] <Hixie> it was the result of my trying to address xforms' use cases instead of the web's
# [10:25] <othermaciej> I never understood what the use case for the repetition model is
# [10:25] <hsivonen> annevk: I think the repetition model is acceptable in the spec. data templates aren't, because if all people on this channel don't grok it, it's not going to fly
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# [10:25] <othermaciej> people have tried to claim it is good for shopping carts, but that does not make sense to me
# [10:26] <Hixie> the data templates would be easy to understand if they were explained
# [10:26] <Hixie> it's just that the spec is basically an english translation of code
# [10:26] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://www.esato.com/archive/t.php/t-162718,1.html seems to have some information about Opera Mini servers
# [10:26] <annevk> hsivonen, it might be that I wouldn't have understood repetition templates without the introduction section, so I'm willing to give data templates a chance
# [10:26] <Hixie> without any exposition
# [10:26] <Hixie> not that i'm arguing in favour of them, they're gonna be chopped out too
# [10:26] <Hixie> we should work out what is needed to make scripting these things easier though
# [10:26] <hsivonen> I still think data templates would be easier by going fully to script
# [10:27] <Hixie> e.g. maybe we need some sort of search-and-replace API for attribute values and text content
# [10:28] <annevk> othermaciej, it's for cases where you need to fill in a set of data n times
# [10:29] <othermaciej> I don't recall having encountered a form like that
# [10:29] <othermaciej> maybe it comes up more in corporate settings?
# [10:29] <Hixie> it's pretty rare
# [10:29] <Hixie> like i said
# [10:29] <Lachy> I build a site a few years ago that used repeating form fields. Unfortunately, the site seems to have been rebuilt quite recently
# [10:29] <Hixie> it was the result of my trying to address xforms' use cases instead of the web's
# [10:29] <othermaciej> does any of you know of a form on a public web site where repetition model can apply?
# [10:29] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think the preferrable way for bridging model and view is putting JS closures into the view onchange handlers so that the closures capture the model references appropriately
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# [10:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: if that's non-performant, I'd prefer JS engine improvement over HTML complexity
# [10:30] <annevk> othermaciej, the form I had is gone, besides that I know it would be useful in PHPMyAdmin
# [10:31] <roc> othermaciej: tag fields in the code.google.com bug tracker
# [10:31] <othermaciej> roc: got a specific page example?
# [10:31] <hsivonen> I developed an app with repeating forms three years ago for behind-the-firewall enterprise use
# [10:32] <hsivonen> and it had more than one type of repeating block in one item list, so WF2 repetitions wouldn't have worked
# [10:32] <annevk> othermaciej, http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/entry
# [10:32] <annevk> "Add a row"
# [10:32] <roc> http://code.google.com/p/chronicle-recorder/issues/detail?id=4#makechanges
# [10:33] <Hixie> hsivonen: i have no idea what you're proposing :-)
# [10:33] <othermaciej> I must be slow because I don't see what you guys are referring to on either of those pages
# [10:33] <roc> although I'm not a proponent of declarative repetition, myself
# [10:33] <annevk> othermaciej, maybe you need to be logged in
# [10:33] <othermaciej> I'm logged in with my google account
# [10:33] <othermaciej> but I don't belong to either of those projects
# [10:33] <Hixie> The "Add a row" link at the bottom of anne's page
# [10:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: suppose you have a form field in the view and you want the data in it to be reflected to an XML tree load/saved using XHR
# [10:34] <Hixie> or the "Attach a file" link on roc's
# [10:34] <Hixie> also at the bottom
# [10:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: so when you initialize the binding, you copy the value from the XML tree to the view and install closures as onchange handlers in the view
# [10:34] <Hixie> hsivonen: "in the view"?
# [10:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: so that the right model node gets captured into each onchange closure copy
# [10:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: the form field
# [10:35] <othermaciej> I don't see an "add a row" link on anne's or an "attach a file" link on roc's
# [10:35] <Philip`> othermaciej: Maybe you're using an unsupported browser?
# [10:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm assuming that the data template thing was about binding an HTML view to an XML model
# [10:36] <hsivonen> Hixie: like XUL templates bind a XUL view to an RDF model
# [10:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: i don't really understand all the fancy terms in your description :-)
# [10:36] <roc> othermaciej: try clicking on the link "Add a comment and make changes below" on the LHS
# [10:36] <Hixie> hsivonen: i mean, i understand them in isolation, but strung together like that i don't follow :-)
# [10:37] <othermaciej> ok when I click the "add a comment
# [10:37] <Hixie> hsivonen: what would it look like to the author?
# [10:37] <roc> we have XML and SQL model support now
# [10:37] <roc> no nasty RDF
# [10:37] <othermaciej> "" link I see the attach a file link
# [10:37] <othermaciej> I'll buy that as straight-up repetition
# [10:37] <othermaciej> (though multi-file selection in <input type="file"> might be a better solution for that use case)
# [10:38] <roc> yeah
# [10:38] <roc> we need that
# [10:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: viewfield.value = modelelement.textContent; viewfield.onchange = function () { modelelement.textContent = this.value; }
# [10:39] <zcorpan> hmm i almost replied to an email in the alt thread
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# [10:39] <zcorpan> i figure that's not really needed
# [10:40] <Hixie> zcorpan: feel free to reply to the one on the whatwg, that one's actually making some (minor) progress
# [10:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: isn't that possible already then?
# [10:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: yes. that's the point :-)
# [10:40] <annevk> i tried replying to the alt thread a few times, it resulted in n^2 of collateral damage
# [10:40] <annevk> so I guess I learned my lesson :D
# [10:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: the only problem is that browser developers tell me it doesn't have nice memory footprint
# [10:41] <Hixie> hsivonen: "waah"
# [10:42] <Hixie> my ipod has hundreds of megabytes of memory
# [10:42] <hsivonen> Hixie: so I would rather see work go into making the memory situation less of an issue than trying to work around it by adding complexity to HTML
# [10:42] <Hixie> by the time html5 is done...
# [10:43] <zcorpan> Hixie: ok, sent it
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# [10:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: well, unless I remember incorrectly, hyatt's argument against JS closures and for data templates was about perf/memory characteristics, so if you can convince him about the future iPod memory... :-)
# [10:48] <Hixie> if we keep either of the current templating things, i'm also adding the ~4 other templating ideas that people have discussed with me that are at least as good and all different
# [10:48] <Hixie> such as daniel's html overlays, and the system google maps uses for business information page generation
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# [10:56] <Philip`> Hixie: So HTML5 should add a <media> element for playing video-audio content, because that's at least as good a name as <video>?
# [10:57] <Hixie> it's a matter of functonality, not names
# [10:58] <Philip`> It seems a more general issue that sometimes you have to choose between equally-good options, because making any choice is better than making no choice
# [10:58] * Lachy agrees with hsivonen that "User agents are encouraged to default to being configured to always reuse the current browsing context, or to at least provide that option to the user." should be dropped from the spec.
# [10:58] <Hixie> these aren't equally good options
# [10:58] <Hixie> they're different options that solve different but equally important use cases
# [10:59] <Hixie> Lachy: send feedback to the list please :-)
# [10:59] <Lachy> Hixie, if I sent it to the list, it would just be a "+1"
# [10:59] <Hixie> oh wait, crap, that's what henri was talking about?
# [10:59] <Hixie> i just deleted that message because it looked like it was about alt stuff again and it was just a public-html message
# [11:00] <Lachy> LOL
# [11:00] <Philip`> Adding all the different options would be too complex for implementors and authors, so that's never going to work, and supporting the use cases for one of the options (which probably overlaps partially with those of the other options') seems more useful than supporting none
# [11:00] <Lachy> so you didn't actually read it?
# [11:00] <Philip`> s/'//
# [11:00] <Hixie> i read it, but apparently not in enough detail to determine what it was about
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# [11:01] <hsivonen> alt collateral damage...
# [11:01] <Hixie> Philip`: i'm saying we should support all of them, by providing necessary plumbing to enable all of them to be implemented easily from script
# [11:02] <Philip`> Hixie: Okay, that sounds like a good thing to say :-)
# [11:02] <Hixie> Philip`: i'm just not sure what that plumbing is :-)
# [11:02] <Hixie> hsivonen: oh, i see what happened
# [11:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: i read the subject line and everything you wrote
# [11:03] <othermaciej> failing to open a new window/tab for _blank will just encourage authors to use window.open for that purpose
# [11:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: and didn't read what you were quoting
# [11:03] <Hixie> hsivonen: and i agreed with everything you wrote, so i assumed you were replying to the alt text debate
# [11:03] <othermaciej> or target="randomname" which just introduces opportunity for conflicts if there is no need to reuse the window by name
# [11:03] <Hixie> and nothing in the subject line or the body of your text actually requested a change to the spec
# [11:03] <Hixie> so i ignored it :-)
# [11:04] <Hixie> (and since it wasn't sent to whatwg, i didn't file it to get a reply)
# [11:04] <Hixie> Lachy: so please do reply, but in your text say what should change, so i can file it :-D
# [11:05] <Hixie> othermaciej: the way the spec is written, the code that would fail to open a window for _blank would be the same code that would fail to open a window for window.open
# [11:05] <Hixie> othermaciej: and also target=randomname
# [11:05] <Hixie> othermaciej: all of those hook into the same algorithm, and it's that algorithm that says that UAs are encouraged to just reuse the current window
# [11:06] <othermaciej> then I guess the terrifying next-best alternative is in-window DOM popovers
# [11:06] <othermaciej> which I hate much much more than actual separate windows
# [11:07] <Hixie> those are fine, they just make me close the page without any further damage
# [11:07] <jgraham_> The choice of preferring the user v preferring authors for browser defaults is kind of complex to summarise in a single sentence
# [11:07] <jgraham_> and I don't think generally works as "always prefer X"
# [11:08] <othermaciej> it depends on whether the author has a more-evil workaround, and how evil the original feature is
# [11:09] <othermaciej> for example I think Safari's default cookie policy (which effectively prevents most cookie-based cross-site tracking) is good despite being less author-friendly then always accepting and sending all cookies
# [11:09] <jgraham_> and how evil the workaround is
# [11:09] <Philip`> If window.open reused the current window (in a new tab), hopefully it'd be like Opera (at least on Linux) where you still get a thing that looks like a window with the right size, instead of being a full-screen tab and destroying the layout
# [11:10] <jgraham_> Philip`: I have never found that I really missed explicit window sizes
# [11:14] <Lachy> Hixie, I replied to the thread. But I thought hsivonen's email clearly implied that the recommendation should be removed.
# [11:15] <Hixie> yeah see my comments above -- the only part of his mail that mentioend what he was talking about what hte part where he quoted a (poorly wrapped) diff, which i skipped over when reading his mail, since it wasn't from him
# [11:17] <Hixie> and since i sent the e-mail where i mentioned this to whatwg, i assumed that since his mail was to public-html it was about something else :-)
# [11:17] <Hixie> anyway, replied
# [11:17] <Lachy> ok, well I didn't suggest an explicit change. But I explained why making that the default is a bad idea, from which you should be able to determine an appropriate change
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# [11:26] <Hixie> yeah
# [11:26] <Hixie> i explained why you were wrong :-)
# [11:27] <Philip`> "it's the only part of the spec that creates a new window." - that just means people will use other specs to create a new window
# [11:27] <Lachy> Hixie, and I'm responding to explain why you're wrong :-)
# [11:28] <annevk> Philip`, it's the only spec that defines windows :)
# [11:28] <Hixie> i think i'm just going to not add new footnote markup
# [11:28] <Philip`> annevk: Other specs can reference it (maybe implicitly), and define some API that actually really opens windows
# [11:29] <Philip`> Presumably Flash is one of those things
# [11:29] <Hixie> i can't really come up with a good way of doing them
# [11:29] <othermaciej> Flash and Java can open windows
# [11:29] <Hixie> Philip`: i would recommend that UAs make these prefs apply to those too
# [11:30] <Philip`> Eventually people will find a plugin that simulates sending Ctrl+N keystrokes to the browser to open a new window
# [11:30] <Hixie> i'm ok with that
# [11:30] <Hixie> since i won't have that plugin running
# [11:30] <othermaciej> opening windows in the current browsing context will probably be extra annoying in the JAaa and Flash cases
# [11:30] <othermaciej> *Java
# [11:30] <Hixie> i have java disabled
# [11:30] <Philip`> Hixie: Then all the links will be broken and you won't be able to browse the web
# [11:30] * Lachy never thought he would be defending the default behaviour of opening popus :-/
# [11:30] <othermaciej> probably pretty annoying when you click a help link that is meant to open in a help window
# [11:31] <othermaciej> Hixie: it's not a very good argument to say that default UA settings should cater to your customized UA settings
# [11:31] <Hixie> Philip`: like i said earlier, if a page starts screwing around like that, i just close the tab and go elsewhere
# [11:31] <annevk> yeah, you don't want those help popups in the same window
# [11:31] <annevk> that would be a disaster
# [11:31] <othermaciej> I don't think the encouragement is very relevant anyway
# [11:31] <Hixie> Philip`: the problem i have with new windows is that there the annoyance happens before i can close the window and causes extra damage to closing the window
# [11:31] <annevk> the encouragement leads to advocacy in browser bug databases
# [11:31] <othermaciej> it's not even a real conformance requirement
# [11:31] <Philip`> Oh, reusing the current browsing context instead of just the current window? That sounds like it'd never work, because someone would fill in a complex form and click the 'help' popup link and lose all their data and cry and switch browser
# [11:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: if i want a help link in another window, i command-click it
# [11:32] <annevk> Hixie, i don't
# [11:32] <annevk> my parents don't
# [11:32] <annevk> my friends don't
# [11:32] <annevk> etc.
# [11:32] <othermaciej> Hixie: you are using "I" an awful lot in this discussion about what UA settings are appropriate defaults
# [11:32] <Hixie> annevk: hey!
# [11:32] <annevk> well, apart from you :p
# [11:32] <Hixie> othermaciej: yup :-)
# [11:33] <Hixie> Philip`: that's what the "open link in new tab" ui and the back button are for
# [11:33] <othermaciej> defaults should be set to be right for the typical user
# [11:34] <othermaciej> and none of us here is a very good model of the typical user
# [11:35] <othermaciej> though at least using oneself as an example is more honest than the "my grandmother would..." argument
# [11:35] <Hixie> fine fine, changed it to be a recommendation to provider a pref instead of a recommendation for the default
# [11:39] <Lachy> Hixie, thanks.
# [11:45] <Hixie> dbaron: (discussion on the matter can be found above)
# [11:49] <jwalden> othermaciej: another repetition use case is at the bottom of the advanced search page in bugzilla
# [11:49] <jwalden> where you want and/or with <something> <relationship> <textfield>
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# [12:39] <Lachy> I just read Microsoft's XDR proposal for the first time. It really doesn't seem to offer any advantages over XHR and AccessControl. I don't get why they proposed it.
# [12:40] <annevk> they believe it's more secure
# [12:42] <Hixie> it's less secure
# [12:46] <Lachy> yeah, I'm looking for the explanations on how it's less secure.
# [12:46] <Philip`> Maybe implementations of XDR would be more secure, since it's simpler and it doesn't have to interact with all the existing complex XHR code and so there's significantly less chance of bugs
# [12:50] <annevk> xhr code is not complex
# [12:50] <annevk> or does not have to be anyway
# [12:51] <Philip`> 'Doesn't have to be complex' != 'Isn't complex'
# [12:52] <Philip`> particularly for people like Microsoft who had to implement it before there was a spec
# [12:52] <annevk> Lachy, xdr encourages a design where people have to share their login code of their gmail account for instance, it encourages content sniffing,
# [12:52] <Philip`> (and hence might have an architecture that is incompatible with what the spec is based on, so small changes in the spec require significant changes in the implementation)
# [12:52] <annevk> Philip`, everyone had to implement it before there was a spec, from public available source code webkit shows it does not have to be complex
# [12:53] <annevk> (is this one of your truth finding games again? :) )
# [12:55] <Philip`> (I never know the truth, so everything is trying to find it :-) )
# [12:55] * Philip` tries to find the appropriate bit of WebKit...
# [12:55] <annevk> it's in the xml folder iirc
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# [12:56] <annevk> WebCore/xml
# [12:56] <Philip`> http://trac.webkit.org/projects/webkit/browser/trunk/WebCore/xml/XMLHttpRequest.cpp - that looks like it
# [12:58] <Lachy> annevk, I don't see how it encourages such a design, and can't find any mail in the archive that describes anything like that.
# [12:59] <Philip`> I suppose 800 lines of code and ~200 revisions doesn't seem especially complex
# [13:00] <annevk> Lachy, you're not trying very hard then :)
# [13:00] <Philip`> http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/content/base/src/nsXMLHttpRequest.cpp has ~3 times as much code and a similar number of revisions
# [13:01] <annevk> Gecko isn't know for its pretty source code :)
# [13:01] <annevk> known, even
# [13:01] <annevk> I find the Gecko code quite hard to grasp
# [13:02] <Philip`> About the only Gecko code I've looked at in any detail is the canvas implementation, and that's mostly interfacing with Cairo rather than with Mozilla
# [13:02] <Lachy> annevk, I know. I only skimmed the archives. I will have a better look later when I have time
# [13:02] <Philip`> (or at least I can ignore (or copy-and-paste) the Mozilla-interfacing code without understanding it)
# [13:04] <Philip`> s/Mozilla/Gecko/ or whatever
# [13:04] * Philip` isn't very good at keeping all the terms straight
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# [14:21] <krijnh> Lachy: okay if I stop logging #xhtml ? ;)
# [14:21] <annevk> could you log #css perhaps?
# [14:21] <krijnh> Here?
# [14:21] <annevk> no, on irc.w3.org:80
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# [14:22] <krijnh> I think so
# [14:22] <annevk> it's resolved to be a public channel, but nobody is logging...
# [14:22] <Hixie> i like the #xhtml logs
# [14:22] <krijnh> Hixie: you do at the moment? :)
# [14:22] <Hixie> though nothing exciting has happened recently
# [14:23] <Hixie> i check them occasionally
# [14:23] <Hixie> nothing has happened of interest in months though
# [14:23] <Hixie> partially because they know it's logged
# [14:23] <krijnh> Hmm
# [14:26] <Hixie> bed time
# [14:26] <Hixie> nn
# [14:26] <krijnh> :w
# [14:28] <annevk> just log it
# [14:28] <annevk> make it less prominent on the logging page maybe because it's far less relevant
# [14:36] <krijnh> Done
# [14:36] <krijnh> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/20080421
# [14:52] <Philip`> The #css log is boring
# [14:53] <Philip`> Someone needs to do some trolling in there
# [14:54] <krijnh> :)
# [14:55] <Lachy> krijnh, I left #xhtml today cause I got tired of oedipus telling me he was away
# [14:55] <krijnh> Lachy: Yeah, I logged that
# [14:58] <Lachy> #webapi might be interesting too, though it's quite low traffic
# [14:58] <annevk> same for #wai-aria
# [14:58] <krijnh> -_-
# [14:58] <annevk> #webapi is not a public channel
# [14:58] <Lachy> really?
# [14:58] <annevk> yes
# [14:58] <annevk> though #webapi on freenode might be, not sure if anyone is still there though
# [14:59] <Lachy> yeah, Hixie, othermaciej, deltab and myself are in there. Nothing is ever discussed in there though
# [15:00] <Philip`> Looks like he was emitting an away message every 16 minutes 40 seconds, which is a slightly peculiar timing
# [15:00] <annevk> it's American for 15 minutes
# [15:00] <Lachy> Philip` that's every 1000 seconds
# [15:01] <Philip`> Ah, that makes it sound less peculiar
# [15:01] <Lachy> or 10 minutes in metric time :-)
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# [15:02] <Philip`> If we have to call megabytes "mebibytes" because they're based on binary counting, metric time has to use "deminutes" and "dehours"
# [15:03] <Philip`> otherwise there will be horrible confusion
# [15:04] <annevk> dinutes and dours
# [15:05] <Lachy> it depends what's considered to be the base unit
# [15:06] <Lachy> if the day is the base unit, then we would have milliday, deciday, megaday, etc.
# [15:07] <Philip`> A day is a silly unit
# [15:07] <Philip`> It doesn't correspond exactly to anything physically existent or useful
# [15:07] <Lachy> of course, if star trek is true, we'll all be using star date in the 24th century, so we may aswell switch to that now.
# [15:08] * krijnh thinks about not logging #whatwg anymore either..
# [15:08] <Philip`> Relativity makes time measurement hard
# [15:08] <krijnh> Silly topics in here
# [15:08] <Philip`> We have a hard enough time coping with timezones and leap seconds
# [15:09] <Philip`> (Uh, maybe "hard ... time" wasn't the most appropriate phrase there)
# [15:09] <Philip`> krijnh: They're important topics relating to the standardisation of all aspects of the future world
# [15:10] <Lachy> we should just abolish leap years and leap seconds, by adjusting the rotation of the earth and the orbit of the sun, so that each day is exactly 10 hours, and each year is exactly 100 days.
# [15:10] <Lachy> but then an hour would be ~2.4 times longer than it is now
# [15:11] <Philip`> If you make the Earth spin at 2.4 times its current speed, wouldn't that mean hours would still be the same length?
# [15:12] <Philip`> As a bonus, geosynchronous orbit wouldn't be so far out
# [15:13] <Lachy> no, I meant to adjust the rotation slightly so that a day is exactly 24 hours (current time scale), and then redefine the hour to be 1/10th of a day
# [15:13] <Philip`> Hmm, insufficiently ambitious
# [15:15] <Lachy> then move the earth's orbit away from the sun about 20,000km (which will help with global warming), then speed make it orbit faster (taking relativity into account) so that each year is 100 days.
# [15:16] <Lachy> since we'll be moving faster, time will move slower, and everyone will live longer :-)
# [15:16] <Philip`> If you move it further away and speed it up, it'll end up with a horribly elliptic orbit
# [15:18] <Philip`> ("speed up" in the sense of "radians per second", not "metres per second")
# [15:18] <Lachy> not if we increase the mass of the sun, which will increase its gravity, and thus make the planet orbit faster
# [15:19] <Philip`> Good point
# [15:19] <Lachy> we've got 7 other planets we can throw into it to do that
# [15:20] <Philip`> They have pretty negligible mass
# [15:20] <Lachy> jupiter is significant
# [15:20] <Philip`> Not compared to the Sun
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# [15:20] <Lachy> is it enough to increase the sun's mass by the necessary amount?
# [15:22] <Philip`> Jupiter: 1.8986×10^27 kg
# [15:22] <Philip`> Sun: 1.9891×10^30 kg
# [15:22] <Philip`> 0.1% isn't going to do very much at all
# [15:24] <Lachy> maybe we just wait till Andromeda collides with the Milky Way, and one of those stars will merge with the sun to make it big enough.
# [15:26] <Philip`> Stars don't just merge - the momentum needs to go somewhere
# [15:26] <Lachy> hmm. true
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# [15:27] <Philip`> If you make a little man out of plasticine and stand him on a wall, and shoot him with a rifle with a plasticine bullet, they don't merge into a slightly larger man standing on the wall
# [15:27] <Lachy> what about just moving earth to a larger star?
# [15:28] <krijnh> annevk: can't you change the topic in #css ? :)
# [15:29] <mpt> Philip`, that's because the difference between the bullet's force and the gravitational force is big enough. But that's nothing to do with why stars don't merge when galaxies do.
# [15:30] <Lachy> what would really happen if two stars got close enough, is that they would begin to orbit each other forming a binary system, and gradually get closer and closer.
# [15:30] <Philip`> mpt: Sorry, logical arguments are not allowed in here
# [15:30] <Lachy> I'm not sure what effect the gravitational waves would have upon the earth then, it might tear it apart.
# [15:31] <mpt> Philip`, pants.
# [15:32] <Philip`> Lachy: Depends on their initial relative velocities
# [15:32] <Philip`> They usually wouldn't just happily fall into a circular orbit for no reason
# [15:33] <Lachy> and would also depend on their individual mass too
# [15:33] <Philip`> and I have no idea what conditions would be needed for them to orbit at all, instead of just swinging past each other
# [15:33] <Philip`> mpt: Okay, you win that argument :-(
# [15:37] <annevk> krijnh, everyone can as far as I can tell
# [15:38] <annevk> krijnh, though I made the change I guess you were hinting at...
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# [16:01] <krijnh> Thanks, wouldn't be nice if I were logging without anybody knowing :)
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# [17:20] <hendry> I wonder if that will help my browser stop acting stupid when DNS drops or my net connection is a little unstable
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# [18:28] <zcorpan_> Hixie: <object> doesn't list name='' as its attributes and name is missing in the idl
# [18:40] * zcorpan_ updated html5-elements
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# [19:18] * annevk should update html5-diff
# [19:27] <hsivonen_> krijnh: logging #xhtml is useful
# [19:29] <Dashiva> Maybe the bot should filter away messages :)
# [19:30] <hsivonen_> krijnh: and logging #wai-aria on w3.org would be useful, too
# [19:31] <BenMillard> hsivonen_, +1
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# [19:33] * hsivonen_ is now known as hsivonen
# [19:33] <Dashiva> Pretty warlike convo in xhtml: "our position seems to be getting stronger; TBL seemed to lean our way; think we are winning"
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# [19:34] <Philip`> I'd like a war in which you could win by having someone lean at you, instead of having to bomb and shoot tens of thousands of people
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# [19:35] <Dashiva> Play board games :)
# [19:35] * Philip` dislikes cross-posting public-html and whatwg combined with whatwg's member-only posting and his different email addresses used for each list
# [19:39] <annevk> maybe you should use a single e-mail address :)
# [19:39] <Philip`> That would be too convenient
# [19:40] <Philip`> and I don't want to change any of the ones that I use, for legacy compatibility
# [19:40] <Philip`> (and because I'm lazy)
# [19:41] <Dashiva> I like being able to sort by email address
# [19:43] <annevk> hmm, xtech.org is hit by encoding errors
# [19:43] <annevk> it also uses some weird ass html
# [19:44] <Lachy> I tried filtering by haing different email addresses once. I find it mostly ineffective and useless. Filtering on list-id is better
# [19:46] <Dashiva> Well, it saves you from having to configure the client every time you join a new list
# [19:46] <Dashiva> And it works for non-list mail too :)
# [19:47] <BenMillard> annevk, I noticed lots of <a href="foo" title=""> on there some time ago. But that's really good for accessibility; it uses the title attribute.
# [19:47] <Philip`> In theory, having multiple email addresses lets you work out where spammers are finding your address from
# [19:48] <BenMillard> annevk, having their homepage at http://2008.xtech.org/public/news is weird, though
# [19:48] <Dashiva> Philip`: Yeah. Like I get a lot more spam on my w3c sub than the whatwg one. Odd
# [19:50] <Philip`> I suppose the actual result is that you get all the spam sent to one address, plus all the spam sent to the other address, so you end up with twice as much spam
# [19:50] <Dashiva> Yeah, makes it much easier for the filter to catch it
# [19:50] <Lachy> Before I disabled it, I use to get spam sent to email addresses like [message-id]@lachy.id.au, where they got that from the w3 archives
# [19:52] <Lachy> Dashiva, how does using mutliple email addresses save you from having to configure the client for every new list? Don't you get a new email address for each list?
# [19:52] <Lachy> or do you use each email for a group of lists?
# [19:53] <annevk> BenMillard, setting title to the empty string is good for access?
# [19:53] * annevk isn't sure he got the point
# [19:53] <Dashiva> Lachy: Groups
# [19:53] <Dashiva> Like I have one for all the whatwg lists and non-list whatwg correspondence
# [19:53] <BenMillard> annevk, :D
# [19:55] <Lachy> ok. I use procmail to filter all my mail into appropriate folders on the server side now, typically based on list-id, and most other things go into the inbox
# [19:56] <BenMillard> annevk, it was a joke: the authors or their authoring tool probably think generting title on every <a href> is a good thing, even though it is nearly always the empty string on that site
# [19:56] <annevk> ah :)
# [19:56] <annevk> I mostly use the title attribute if the contents of the <a> element are not clear enough or quite different from the title of the page I'm pointing at
# [19:56] <annevk> of course, given that the Web can always change it's not guaranteed to be accurate :)
# [19:57] * Dashiva used <abbr @title> today
# [19:57] <BenMillard> annevk, it's surprising how many sites I've built where the client has added title="foo" where the link text already said "foo"
# [19:58] <Philip`> Dashiva: Did you use it for writing human/machine-readable dates?
# [19:58] <annevk> that seems kind of pointless :)
# [19:58] <Dashiva> Philip`: No, for the ACM ICPC
# [19:58] <BenMillard> annevk, my suspicion is there's some bullshit SEO crooks making a living from coning clients who don't know better into paying for it
# [19:58] <Philip`> Dashiva: Ah, sounds like you're in the minority then
# [19:58] <BenMillard> making websites is pretty sad at times
# [19:58] <BenMillard> s/coning/conning
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# [19:58] <annevk> nah, making web sites is cool
# [19:59] <Philip`> Making people visit your web site is the sad part
# [19:59] <Philip`> particularly when it's someone else's site, and it's really boring, but they want lots of visitors anyway
# [19:59] <BenMillard> you need to hire an SEO crook!
# [19:59] <Dashiva> Philip`: That sounds like a potential analogy for too many current events
# [20:01] * Philip` fails to understand the reference :-(
# [20:01] <Dashiva> Maybe I should have included an alternate non-subtle representation of the reference
# [20:03] <Philip`> Ah
# [20:03] * Philip` goes home
# [20:04] * Parts: sverrej (n=sverrej@89.10.27.86) ("Ex-Chat")
# [20:07] <Philip`> (but not before noting that http://www.w3.org/Consortium/sup is still an amusing example of SEO)
# [20:08] <annevk> '<meta name="ROBOTS" content="INDEX, NOFOLLOW" />'
# [20:15] * Quits: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu)
# [20:15] <annevk> To keep the WHATWG blog active and useful should we try to post an update of what's going on every two weeks or every week or so?
# [20:16] <annevk> I'm willing to put some effort behind doing that, though I'm pretty sure my writings will be biased. I guess I'm asking the rest of you to be editor for corrections, etc. Either by comments or modifications to the post directly...
# [20:18] <BenMillard> that blog is a soapbox so, bias seems fine to me
# [20:18] <annevk> I'm assuming lots of people will take it as authorative for one reason or another so keeping it as accurate and objective as possible would be good :)
# [20:19] <BenMillard> a summary of what's gone on every 2 weeks sounds great, though
# [20:20] <BenMillard> CSSWG's blog have little messages with resolutions and stuff quite regularly these days
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# [20:54] <Philip`> We should get two very differently biased people, and they can write summaries of alternate weeks, so the biases cancel out
# [20:56] <hsivonen> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/xhtml/20080416#l-156
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# [21:29] <webben> BenMillard: Have you considered setting up a paypal donate button or something else that would make it easy to send you money, btw?
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# [21:33] <BenMillard> webben, considered it but sustainable funding can't be a few people sending a dollar each week
# [21:33] <BenMillard> which, for a niche subject like this, is probably all that would retrieve
# [21:33] <BenMillard> electronic banking (such as BACS) is convenient once you exchange details
# [21:34] <BenMillard> why do you ask? feel like giving me £1,000? :)
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# [21:39] <webben> BenMillard: I wish. Just thinking about Clark's patronage drive for a similar niche thing.
# [21:39] <webben> (not quite as niche, admittedly)
# [21:39] <webben> BenMillard: It might also help if you gave some indication of how much you think would pay for what?
# [21:40] <webben> how much more will accessible with TABLE be if we were to give you £100? Or £500? Or £1,000? Or £10,000?
# [21:41] <webben> granted it's hard to know
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# [21:52] <gsnedders> Error: obsolete example. BAR no longer exist as an F1 team :P
# [21:53] * hsivonen tries to stay out of the abbr thread; writes software instead
# [21:54] <BenMillard> webben, people I've spoken to about sponsorship generally seem unwilling to talk money in public
# [21:54] <BenMillard> webben, but I'm fine with doing so
# [21:54] <BenMillard> webben, I'm pricing the research at £10 as it's just about livable (although drastically less than I can earn making websites)
# [21:54] <BenMillard> £10 per hour, I mean
# [21:55] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben) (Nick collision from services.)
# [21:55] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
# [21:56] <BenMillard> measuring the cost-effectiveness in terms of how many times a user no longer experiences a problem with a table when they would have previously is beyond me
# [21:56] <webben> yeah, I was being a bit flippant
# [21:56] <BenMillard> I think it's a valid question, though :)
# [21:56] <webben> you might try estimating how long you think a given task might take
# [21:56] <webben> in days/weeks
# [21:56] <webben> and costing that way
# [21:57] <BenMillard> Collections of Interesting Data Tables was about 100 hours (somewhere in that order of magnitude)
# [21:58] <BenMillard> that was spread over several months as it wasn't sponsored
# [21:58] <BenMillard> changes to the spec came several months after that
# [21:59] <BenMillard> (they aren't my work, though)
# [21:59] <webben> I wonder if there's a tenured academic who might be interested in some of these tasks.
# [21:59] <webben> they might find it more affordable
# [21:59] <BenMillard> I think having an actual professional content author who is involved with accessibility and standards work brings a lot of benefits...namely realism
# [22:00] <BenMillard> but the more research the merrier
# [22:00] <BenMillard> Philip`'s statistics are fabulous...someone needs to give him a big pile of cash
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# [22:02] * gsnedders has been using Philip` to get HTTP headers, seeming he's been making plenty of requests :P
# [22:06] <BenMillard> I've spammed WAI IG about funding and to raise awareness about the work http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2008AprJun/0021.html
# [22:06] <BenMillard> MikeSmith suggested I send something their way; Shawn Henry pointed me to exactly where
# [22:07] <BenMillard> off for dinner now, then hibernation. bye all!
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# [22:17] <Philip`> I approve of the idea of giving me a big pile of cash
# [22:18] * Philip` transfers £1000 from his bank account to himself
# [22:20] <Philip`> Actually, that's a bad idea since I need that money to pay for accommodation...
# [22:24] * Quits: mpt (n=mpt@canonical/launchpad/mpt) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
# [22:27] <gsnedders> annevk: ping (molly wants to know if you're around)
# [22:27] <annevk> i am
# [22:28] * gsnedders passes message on
# [22:28] <gsnedders> everything thing I say is bullshit, and I'm just a messenger boy :P
# [22:30] * Joins: Molly_ (i=user@ip70-171-193-169.tc.ph.cox.net)
# [22:30] <annevk> hi Molly_
# [22:30] <Molly_> hey anne!
# [22:30] <Philip`> gsnedders: You should get a job as an offline message service for MSN, so someone can give you a message to pass onto their friend once they come online
# [22:30] <annevk> so i guess you saw my twitter :)
# [22:30] <Molly_> Anne: It was your Twitter ping that inspired my visit
# [22:31] <annevk> hehe
# [22:31] <Molly_> Annevk: Yes
# [22:31] <gsnedders> hah.
# [22:31] <Philip`> (Or does MSN do that yet? ICQ has had that for decades...)
# [22:31] <gsnedders> Philip`: MSN doesn't.
# [22:31] <gsnedders> It's what my school uses :(
# [22:31] <gsnedders> (well, everyone at my school)
# [22:31] <Molly_> So here's the thing, I have done NO organization or promotion of this thing
# [22:31] <annevk> Molly_, from all WHATWG fanboys, I believe only Henri and myself will show up
# [22:31] <gsnedders> annevk: not fanbois?
# [22:31] <Molly_> but if we get something out there, we can do something
# [22:31] <gsnedders> :P
# [22:31] <Molly_> you mean to xTech itself?
# [22:31] <annevk> yeah
# [22:32] <annevk> oh right
# [22:32] <annevk> it could be promoted separate from XTech
# [22:32] <Molly_> annevk: it can be, yes, and we can also directly ask people we know will be there
# [22:32] <tomg> er MSN has offline messaging
# [22:32] <gsnedders> Have it on the biggest island of the British Isles!
# [22:32] <gsnedders> tomg: since when? :\
# [22:32] <Molly_> annevk: Something where everyone gets a chance to talk about the Open Web as they see it. They would get a certain amount of time
# [22:33] <tomg> with the official client
# [22:33] <Molly_> that sort of thing? We need to do something with the room
# [22:33] <gsnedders> tomg: Peh! Who uses that!? :P
# [22:33] <tomg> gsnedders: few years?
# [22:33] <tomg> not I
# [22:33] <gsnedders> tomg: the Messenger for Mac doesn't support it
# [22:33] <tomg> not entirely sure why Adium and co don't do it though
# [22:33] <Molly_> annevk: The other thought I had was to do that and/or have a "sandbox" room - informal for people to hang out, maybe a planned "open Mike" or something
# [22:33] <annevk> Molly_, yeah, everyone is required to do their 1 minute pitch and then we go out for a beer
# [22:33] <gsnedders> tomg: So only the official Windows one does.
# [22:34] <tomg> Messenger for Mac barely does anything as it is :)
# [22:34] <Molly_> annevk: I like the way you think LOL
# [22:34] <gsnedders> tomg: next version of the Mac one is meant to have feature parity with the next version of the Windows one, though
# [22:34] <Molly_> annevk: and if only you, Henri, and I show up it'll be three minutes and then off to the pub.
# [22:34] * Philip` likes BitlBee + irssi + screen as an MSN/etc client, though that might be partly because he never talks to anyone and he's happy it sits unobtrusively in the background
# [22:34] <gsnedders> (but likely will still have a horrid UI)
# [22:34] <annevk> Molly_, hehe
# [22:35] <Molly_> annevk: What about David Storey?
# [22:35] <annevk> Molly_, just having an informal chat on where everyone wants to go would be cool
# [22:35] <annevk> i've actually no idea if david will shop up
# [22:35] <annevk> i suppose he might :)
# [22:35] <Molly_> hahaha
# [22:35] <Molly_> if there's beer!
# [22:35] <annevk> and a room to crash in :p
# [22:35] <gsnedders> :P
# [22:35] <tomg> gsnedders: there's not much point in them bothering with Adium around :)
# [22:36] <gsnedders> I tell you, you're as bad as my friends, Molly_ :)
# [22:36] * Molly_ rolls eyes at both annevk and gsnedders
# [22:36] <tomg> I'm so glad this train has automated stop announcements it's so easy to get wrapped up in IRC
# [22:36] <gsnedders> tomg: Until a year or so ago, I would have now bitched about the horridness of its UI :)
# [22:36] <tomg> skins!
# [22:36] <gsnedders> tomg: Proteus looks good out of the box, though. I don't want to spend ten hours making an IM client usable :)
# [22:37] <gsnedders> Or just fit into Aqua at all.
# [22:37] <tomg> well, ok :)
# [22:37] <hsivonen> Molly_: HTML5 side event at XTech?
# [22:38] <annevk> that'd be cool too
# [22:38] <Molly_> hsivonen: Ooh, that could be very cool
# [22:38] <annevk> especially if we can get lots of developers and designers to show up
# [22:38] <hsivonen> were you talking about something else?
# [22:38] <Molly_> hsivonen: what do you think about you and Anne doing a presentation about key topics in HTML5?
# [22:38] <annevk> we weren't really sure yet
# [22:38] <Molly_> that would be awesome!
# [22:39] <Molly_> hell, I'd go to that just as an attendee myself
# [22:39] <annevk> Molly_, you have the room on May 6?
# [22:40] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
# [22:40] * annevk arrives evening May 4
# [22:40] <Molly_> is that the workshop day?
# [22:40] <hsivonen> I suppose I could say a word or two
# [22:40] <annevk> i believe so, yes
# [22:40] <annevk> yeah, May 6 is tutorial/workshop
# [22:40] <annevk> May 7-9 is the conference
# [22:40] <Molly_> yep that's the day
# [22:40] <Molly_> we have it the entire day
# [22:41] <annevk> nice
# [22:41] <hsivonen> I arrive on May 5th, so May 6th works for me
# [22:41] <annevk> now the question is how we reach developers etc. in Dublin
# [22:42] <annevk> Molly_, I guess your blog would work best for that ;)
# [22:42] <Molly_> that's not the problem at all, really - we can all blog it once we agree what we're doing and then get it out on upcoming and facebook
# [22:43] <tomg> Dublin?
# [22:43] <gsnedders> And pay for me to come to Dublin :P
# [22:43] <gsnedders> And get me off school :P
# [22:43] <annevk> tomg, http://2008.xtech.org/
# [22:43] <tomg> ah
# [22:43] <annevk> gsnedders, getting to Dublin is cheap using Ryanair or something
# [22:43] <Molly_> tomg: sorry!
# [22:43] <annevk> I got a 35 EUR ticket from Madrid
# [22:44] <Molly_> tomg: I should have explained myself better
# [22:44] <gsnedders> annevk: true. But school. :(
# [22:44] <tomg> urm. if my 3G will work. which it isn't
# [22:44] <jgraham_> If you could insert an extra week into the year so that I can come too, it would be much appreciated :)
# [22:44] <annevk> 35 EUR is 25 EUR cheaper than a supposedly _free_ ticket from Flying Blue (Air France / KLM "fame")
# [22:44] * Molly_ can write a letter "dear snedds' school, please let him come to Dublin with us. We promise to leave him outside the pub"
# [22:45] <gsnedders> :D
# [22:45] <tomg> dodgy dodgy connection. :(
# [22:45] <gsnedders> I'll probably make it to the TP if there's an HTML WG meeting again
# [22:47] * Quits: billmason (n=billmaso@ip200.unival.com) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [22:48] <jgraham_> Molly_: I think you're OK to take gsnedders _into_ the pub, he just can't have alcohol
# [22:48] <gsnedders> jgraham_: I dunno about Irish law. It's different within the union, yet alone outwith it.
# [22:48] <Molly_> okay, how about this. We'll start at 10, and have an "Open the Web" session which I'll do (I'll get videos and fun stuff from lots of people who can't be there - let me know if you want to do that) . That'll be an hour. Then an HTML5 session with Anne and Henri? Then, lunch on our own, back by 13:30 for "Open the Web" open discussion 'til tea-time around 3pm, then how about an "open mike" style lightening talk where anyone can get up and do 2
# [22:49] <gsnedders> "get up and do 2" (it cut off there)
# [22:49] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Well I found a very non-authoritative looking website that said that
# [22:49] <tomg> ouch
# [22:49] <gsnedders> jgraham_: heh.
# [22:49] <tomg> these conferences are expensive
# [22:49] <Molly_> this day is free
# [22:49] <Molly_> that's the other point btw
# [22:49] <gsnedders> jgraham_: Need to get me out of school first, though, and to Erie
# [22:49] <Molly_> this is open to the public (first come first serve in terms of space) but free
# [22:49] <Molly_> as I'm the one buying the room, not the conference
# [22:50] <gsnedders> Well, I of course have a place if I'm there, but I'm special :P
# [22:50] * Molly_ wonders if gsnedders means special as in "short bus" special or something else?
# [22:50] <jgraham_> gsnedders: I would be more sympathetic if I could make it :)
# [22:50] <hsivonen> Molly_: seems OK
# [22:51] <gsnedders> Molly_: special as in knowing the organiser :)
# [22:51] <Molly_> anyone else have any ideas? All ideas welcome!
# [22:51] <gsnedders> Give me money?
# [22:51] <Molly_> and if you happen to be in Dublin, come!
# [22:51] <Molly_> gsnedders: why would I give you money, even if I had it to give?
# [22:52] <gsnedders> Molly_: Because I'm lovesick (though you don't know that :P) and awesome.
# [22:52] <annevk> Molly_, sounds good to me
# [22:52] <annevk> tomg, you don't have to come to the conference
# [22:53] <Molly_> tomg: that's the point, if you can come along to Dublin you can join us for the conf
# [22:53] <Molly_> er, the day
# [22:53] <annevk> tomg, the place we have on May 6 is paid for by Molly Inc.
# [22:53] <tomg> nice
# [22:53] <Philip`> annevk: You could probably reply to Smylers' "Can you link to examples of such webpages, which have <abbr> elements without title attibutes? What does that mark-up currently achieve?"
# [22:53] <tomg> ohh. get to get off train.
# [22:53] <tomg> er, got
# [22:53] <Philip`> since http://www.w3.org/TR/XMLHttpRequest/ has <abbr>e.g.</abbr>
# [22:53] <tomg> bye!
# [22:53] <Molly_> I just expect everyone to be paying for my beers at the pub. And I'm not a cheap drunk :D
# [22:53] <annevk> see you
# [22:54] * Molly_ waves by to tomg
# [22:54] <Philip`> (although "could" probably doesn't mean "should")
# [22:54] * gsnedders actually marks up e.g. as <i lang="la"><abbr title="exempli gratia">e.g.</abbr></i>
# [22:54] <annevk> Philip`, I think I was just in a marking up phase...
# [22:54] <annevk> Molly_, hah
# [22:54] <hsivonen> Molly_: that would break the pattern :-)
# [22:55] <gsnedders> Molly_: you know I wouldn't :)
# [22:55] * Molly_ is laughing so hard she needs to get a glass of water
# [22:55] <gsnedders> Molly_: Well, at least I'm not making you snort up Pepsi through your nose again :)
# [22:56] <Molly_> the things some people know about me. sheesh. Well, at least I know I've made a mark in this world, however infamous rather than famous it might be
# [22:56] <gsnedders> :P
# [22:56] <jgraham_> gsnedders: OOI it was the 9th May that you wanted to meet up in Cambridge, not the 10th, right?
# [22:56] <gsnedders> jgraham_: Friday.
# [22:56] * jgraham_ needs to avoid double booking himself
# [22:56] <gsnedders> Don't ask me the date!
# [22:57] <Philip`> Friday is the 9th
# [22:57] <jgraham_> gsnedders: Friday is good :)
# [22:57] <gsnedders> Assuming Philip` is right, the 9th therefore.
# [22:57] <Philip`> unless my calendar is lying
# [22:57] <Philip`> or unless my calendar is correct but my clock is lying
# [22:57] <gsnedders> My calendar agrees, FWIW
# [22:58] <Philip`> Ah, so that answer wins best out of three
# [22:58] <jgraham_> Yeah, I knew the 9th was the Friday
# [23:02] <hsivonen> I deployed the new iframe/object browsing context stuff and the abbr-title thing
# [23:02] <gsnedders> jgraham_: <http://flickr.com/photos/gsnedders/2427943333/sizes/o/in/set-72157604643134411/> — that shows the distortion of the lens quite well, FWIW
# [23:03] <gsnedders> (i.e., the tower should be straight)
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# [23:09] <Molly_> @hsivonen: Henri, how do you best like to present? Just talk w/ slides? On a panel? Interview?
# [23:09] <Molly_> I'm thinking it might be fun to do at least part of the HTML5 as an interview
# [23:10] <Molly_> so some "hot topic" questions can be asked
# [23:10] <Molly_> etc.
# [23:10] <Molly_> sorry, I'm twittering too much. everything is now @nick etc.
# [23:10] <Molly_> that would be:
# [23:11] <Molly_> hsivonen: please see above :)
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# [23:27] <hsivonen> hmm. panel/interview means less work for me but also means inconvenient questions. hmm.
# [23:28] <hsivonen> Molly_: I think I'd like to say a something prepared briefly first and then open the mic for questions
# [23:28] <Molly_> hsivonen: Henri, that sounds good. But you'll have to be prepared for some "inconvenience" of course ;)
# [23:29] <hsivonen> yeah :-)
# [23:29] * Molly_ waves at KevinMarks
# [23:29] <hsivonen> Molly_: specifically, I'd like to replay the TPAC bit about commoditizing HTML parsing
# [23:30] <Molly_> hsivonen: One thing that occurs to me is that some people who might show up in the early part of the day won't know too much about HTML5 itself. I want your or Anne or someone to do a "10 things you must know" kind of talk to start off. Then open to questions
# [23:31] <Molly_> hsivonen: then in the afternoon there's room for detailed presentations
# [23:31] <Molly_> hsivonen: what do you think?
# [23:31] <Molly_> all? Anyone? We're putting together a free day of material on HTML5, browsers, open web ideas - free to the public in Dublin on 6 May
# [23:31] <Molly_> help out!
# [23:32] <hsivonen> Molly_: I believe Anne already has a practical "HTML5 in a few slides" presentation
# [23:32] <Molly_> hsivonen: that sounds perfect
# [23:34] <Molly_> last year I called it "Blue Sky" and referred to it as a "Browser Summit"
# [23:34] <Molly_> we should do something with the name
# [23:35] <Molly_> and do them elsewhere too
# [23:35] <Molly_> FutureWeb!
# [23:36] <Molly_> we could go with a FutureShock theme
# [23:39] * Philip` is more interested in LegacyWeb
# [23:40] <Philip`> which I suppose is basically the same thing, since the future is just a continuation of the past
# [23:40] <Philip`> except that in the future we'll have accumulated more mistakes
# [23:41] <Philip`> (Maybe I'm just being pessimistic)
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# [23:45] <annevk> Molly_, FutureWeb! sounds good
# [23:45] <annevk> maybe have a subtitle with HTML5, etc. in it
# [23:46] <Molly_> annevk: I looked up the domain and it isn't available. the .net version is for 3.5k USD
# [23:46] <Molly_> annevk: I'm thinking for future events, etc.
# [23:47] <Molly_> annevk: This is something I want to keep going, and encourage others to do where/when/how they can
# [23:47] <Molly_> hmmmm
# [23:47] <hsivonen> annevk: did your HTML5 intro slides have strategy/economics/anti-lock-in stuff on them or just examples of new features?
# [23:48] <annevk> i had several
# [23:48] <annevk> some talked about design principles and such
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# [23:49] <hsivonen> ok
# [23:49] <Molly_> we need a very basic top 10 things you (devs/designers) need to know about HTML5
# [23:49] <Molly_> then anything branching from that is good
# [23:49] <Molly_> I just think that's really important to start with
# [23:49] <Molly_> that, and q&a
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# [23:50] <annevk> Molly_, there's a similar domain name available but if I mention it here it might get squatted...
# [23:50] <annevk> Molly_, yeah, i can give such a high level intro to HTML5
# [23:50] <Molly_> annevk: send 'em to me private I'll immediately register whatever is yummy :)
# [23:50] <Molly_> annevk: Perfect
# [23:50] <annevk> are you registered on freenode?
# [23:51] <annevk> private messaging on freenode sucks :(
# [23:52] <hsivonen> Molly_: I think the top 10 need to know things do include design principle stuff and evangelism about off-the-shelf parsing
# [23:53] <annevk> Molly_, e-mailed
# [23:53] <Molly_> hsivonen: I understand and agree. Of course, remember that our audience will be very mixed
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# [23:53] <Molly_> so we need a variety of topics from what will seem very basic to you
# [23:53] <Molly_> to more detailed, no?
# [23:53] <hsivonen> yeah
# [23:54] <Molly_> annevk: got it, thx
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# [23:59] <Molly_> annevk: I pwn both .com and .org of that lovely domain now!
# [23:59] <Molly_> now we have to do something with it :)
# Session Close: Tue Apr 22 00:00:00 2008

The end :)