/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-04-23 / end

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# Session Start: Wed Apr 23 00:00:00 2008
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:01] <jgraham_> Philip`: I don't think that's a particularly good analogy. It's like having a public meeting any being annoyed if someone records it
# [00:01] <Hixie> actually it's like being annoyed at the google street view van taking a picture of you
# [00:01] <Hixie> which plenty of people are
# [00:02] <Hixie> but they're wrong to be :-)
# [00:02] <jgraham_> The objections make no sense because anyone can be privately logging the channel and no one would be any the wiser
# [00:02] <Hixie> yup, as i've been doing for years now
# [00:02] <jgraham_> If they need to have secret discussions they should do so elsewhere
# [00:02] <Hixie> like #css-secret
# [00:02] <jgraham_> (or make the channel private again)
# [00:03] <Philip`> #css-secret-treehouse
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# [00:06] <Philip`> jgraham_: It's like having a public meeting and being annoyed if someone releases a recording that loses all the subtleties of context so things can get misinterpreted easily, instead of waiting for the official minutes which everyone present can agree are representative of the meeting
# [00:06] <jgraham_> Philip`: Not at all. The only context that's lost is the realtime nature.
# [00:06] * Quits: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [00:07] <Philip`> jgraham_: That context is often significant
# [00:07] <jgraham_> If you recorded a physical meeting there would be information loss from body language, etc.
# [00:07] * Joins: roc (n=roc@202.0.36.64)
# [00:07] <jgraham_> (assuming audio onlly recording)
# [00:08] <Philip`> e.g. references to current mailing list activity, or to conversations in other IRC channels, would no longer make sense when taken out of the temporal context
# [00:08] <jgraham_> Philip`: I haven't found it to be a problem with the logged channels
# [00:08] <Philip`> Oh, okay then
# [00:09] <Hixie> i agree that it would be like having a public meeting and being annoyed if someone releases an audio or video recording of it
# [00:09] <Dashiva> People have been taking full advantage of #whatwg being logged, and we aren't objecting, are we?
# [00:09] <Hixie> and i think it's dumb to be scared of that
# [00:09] <Hixie> though many people are
# [00:10] <jgraham_> Dashiva: Quite.
# [00:10] <Dashiva> The ACM put pictures of me playing vocalist on the internet, but they removed the context of what song I'm singing, so I just look silly.
# [00:10] <Hixie> we look silly a lot in the #whatwg archives :-D
# [00:11] <Dashiva> Indeed
# [00:11] <Dashiva> Say Hixie, do you still play lggwg?
# [00:11] <Hixie> haven't for a while
# [00:11] <Hixie> waiting for the next version
# [00:11] <Philip`> Dashiva: We aren't objecting, but maybe we should be, since experience shows that people get upset/annoyed/etc by things in the logs that wouldn't have been a problem if those people were part of the conversation
# [00:12] <Dashiva> Philip`: It's a minor inconvenience compared to the improved communication
# [00:12] <Hixie> Philip`: those people find things to be annoyed at whatever we do
# [00:12] <Hixie> Philip`: we shouldn't optimise for them
# [00:12] * jgraham_ notes that Google suggests lggwg might be a misspelling of "logging"
# [00:13] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172)
# [00:13] <jgraham_> Philip`: I would be opposed to the logs being removed
# [00:13] <Philip`> I suppose I don't notice how useful the logs are for communication since I'm connected constantly anyway
# [00:13] <Hixie> hah
# [00:13] <jgraham_> they have good cost/value
# [00:13] <Dashiva> Yeah, that sounds likely
# [00:13] <Philip`> (Irssi uptime: 186d 6h 31m 50s, yay)
# [00:13] <Hixie> (hah @ lggwg/logging)
# [00:14] * Joins: mcarter__ (n=mcarter@ip-12-22-56-126.hqglobal.net)
# [00:14] <Hixie> my uptime is 4 days, but only because someone cut through the trondheim powerlines 5 days ago
# [00:14] <Hixie> killed power to half hte city or something
# [00:14] <Hixie> even the traffic lifghts were out
# [00:14] <gavin_> our shell server was rebooted 13 days ago :(
# [00:14] <Hixie> apparently that delayed the repair people from going to fix it
# [00:14] <Hixie> as they were stuck in traffic
# [00:15] <gavin_> (for kernel updates)
# [00:15] * Quits: mcarter_ (n=mcarter@ip-12-22-56-126.hqglobal.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [00:16] <Philip`> (My server is sufficiently old that the recentish Linux root exploit, introduced in 2.6.17, didn't affect it at all, so I didn't have to reboot for that)
# [00:17] <Dashiva> Security through obsoletedness
# [00:17] <Philip`> (Please don't tell me about any other root exploits that are in 2.6.11, because I'll have to ignore you)
# [00:18] <Lachy> it would be good if systems could be updated without restarting ever
# [00:19] <Philip`> What would you do when there's a bug in the live update code?
# [00:19] <Dashiva> Overwrite it in place
# [00:20] <Lachy> start up a new process, kill the live updater, overwrite the live updater, restart the updater, kill the new process from before and cleanup
# [00:21] <Lachy> basically, any individual component should be able to be killed, updated and restarted without restarting the entire system
# [00:21] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@17.203.15.181) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [00:21] <Philip`> How do you overwrite the live updater, when the live updater is the thing that overwrites files with their updated versions?
# [00:22] <Philip`> ...and when the live updater is buggy, hence the need to update it
# [00:22] <Philip`> (where 'buggy' means 'doesn't work')
# [00:22] <Dashiva> What if there were two processes, one kickstarting the other to overwrite itself and then restart it?
# [00:22] <Lachy> I already answered that. You start a seperate updater program specifically for updating the main live updater
# [00:22] <jgraham_> You download new code that implements a new live updater and uses it to replace to old live updater with itself
# [00:23] <Philip`> If you split things into restartable components, how do you make a component restart without losing all the data contained within that component?
# [00:23] <Lachy> Philip`, magic
# [00:23] <Philip`> (particularly if e.g. its internal data structures have been redesigned)
# [00:23] <Hixie> back in the old days, there were computers that could have their motherboards updated without rebooting
# [00:24] <Philip`> Lachy: Magic is merely sufficiently advanced technology, so you should still be able to explain it :-p
# [00:24] <Hixie> Philip`: that's not what clarke said!
# [00:24] <hsivonen> Philip`: IBM mainframe programmers don't write bugs
# [00:25] <jgraham_> I was under the general impression that lisp proponents cited the ability to update running code in place as one of the big lisp advantages
# [00:25] <Philip`> Hixie: You can still do that in modern computers, if you have sufficient money
# [00:25] <Hixie> Philip`: he didn't say magic was technology, he said sufficiently advanced technology was indistinguishable from magic
# [00:25] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, haven't heard of it recently though
# [00:25] <Lachy> Philip`, there are live update programs that update themselves already. that particular problem is already solved
# [00:25] <Philip`> Hixie: If two things are indistinguishable, you might as well say they're the same thing
# [00:26] <Hixie> Philip`: they could be indistinguishable because of insufficient precision in the measuring instrument
# [00:26] <Lachy> e.g. the Apple Software Updater and Norton Anti-virus Live Update
# [00:26] <Hixie> all updaters pretty much support that
# [00:27] <Philip`> I have a C++ wxWidgets GUI application which was kind of painful to compile/link/run/test, so I've rewritten lots of the GUI stuff into JS, and it automatically reloads the code at runtime when you change it, which is really a much nicer way of developing GUI applications
# [00:27] <hsivonen> even Validator.nu build.py now selfupdates and execs its new self over its old self
# [00:28] <Philip`> but that just throws away all the GUI state when it reloads, which is sometimes a bit of a pain
# [00:28] <Lachy> Philip`, remembering previous states from before the update is also a solved problem
# [00:28] <Hixie> bbl
# [00:29] <Philip`> Lachy: Not when the data structures storing the state have changed incompatibly
# [00:29] <Lachy> Just record sufficient information to disk before closing, and when restarting the updated app, run a conversion program to convert the older data to a new format if necessary and reload
# [00:29] <Lachy> Philip`, changes can be made incrementally to avoid having to throw it all away and start again
# [00:31] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-217-60.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
# [00:32] <Philip`> For an OS kernel, it's hard enough to make suspend-to-RAM work reliably, so I don't hold out much hope for being able to suspend and then rewrite all the data into a new format and then resume a new kernel version :-(
# [00:33] <Philip`> (Hmm, lots of bugs - I shouldn't have left my window open)
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# [00:34] <Philip`> (I hate things that fly at me in bed :-( )
# [00:34] <Dashiva> Make sure you make testcases for each one
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# [00:36] <Lachy> Philip`, the kernel would be written by an infallible intelliegent designer so that it is perfect just the way it is. It never needs updating!
# [00:36] <Philip`> I should employ one, and then I can say it WORKSFORME
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# [00:38] <Dashiva> Lachy: That's why intelligent sort is so awesome
# [00:39] <Lachy> what's intelligent sort?
# [00:39] <Lachy> is that like quick sort?
# [00:39] <Philip`> Is it like bogosort?
# [00:40] <Philip`> The easy way to sort a list of integers is to redefine the order relation so that all integers are equivalent and therefore all lists of integers are already sorted
# [00:43] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
# [00:45] <Lachy> Quantum Bogosort is better
# [00:47] <Dashiva> Lachy: http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/intelligentdesignsort.html
# [00:49] <Lachy> Dashiva, you are Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed in here! ;-)
# [00:50] <Lachy> intelligent sort breaks the 2nd law of bogodynamics!
# [00:50] <Philip`> The problem with the theory of sorting is that it contradicts the second law of thermodynamics - an ordered list has lower entropy than an unordered list, and scientists all agree that the laws of thermodynamics are inviolable, so clearly it is not possible to sort a list
# [00:50] <Dashiva> Philip`: It only seems violated to our imperfect minds
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# [00:58] <Lachy> Dashiva, intelligent sort would mean that it's impossible to ever generate a random number, since the intelligent sorter is always sorting. So the next number in sequence is always predetermined, even if we primitive humans fail to understand how
# [00:59] <annevk> Hixie, I'm still somewhat confused with the process / technical distinction and get flamed enough as it is...
# [01:01] <Dashiva> Lachy: Wonderful, isn't it?
# [01:02] <Lachy> Dashiva, indeed.
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# [01:05] * Lachy goes to join the church of numerology and spread the mathematics of the divine academic
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# [01:07] <Dashiva> Al'Gebra
# [01:07] <Philip`> Lachy: I don't think numerology has much to do with maths
# [01:07] <Philip`> Dashiva: Is he a relation of Al-Khwārizmī?
# [01:10] <Lachy> Philip`, numerology: "The study of the occult meanings of numbers and their supposed influence on human life." - Just because we don't understand the mathematics of the divine, doesn't mean he isn't using maths to control our lives
# [01:11] <roc> you must have taken physics --- you know he's using maths to control our lives
# [01:11] <Philip`> Lachy: Fair enough
# [01:13] <Lachy> roc, quantum physics is the work of the devil! You know he's just messing with you whenever you get close to figuring anything out :-)
# [01:13] <Philip`> roc: Physics only taught me maths that was a horribly crude approximation of reality, and seemed to be hacked together just to match our observations, so I can't tell what really controls our lives
# [01:14] <roc> God loves physicists, and he wanted to give them something to do in the 20th century
# [01:16] <roc> I have to say that physics seems a lot more elegant than, say, the Web
# [01:17] <annevk> maybe in 500 years the Web will seem logical too
# [01:18] <Philip`> Many compost heaps seem more elegant than the Web
# [01:18] <roc> if I try to think about the accumulated cruft of the Web in 500 years, I think I will pass out
# [01:19] <Dashiva> Don't worry, the oil crash will make sure that doesn't happen
# [01:22] <Philip`> Someone will build something that runs on top of the web, but doesn't depend on the web, and then it will become really popular, and nobody will care about the web since it's an implementation detail behind a layer of abstraction, and then the web can be replaced by a new cleaner more appropriate system
# [01:22] <Lachy> given the exponential growth of the web in the last 15 years, which is likely to continue, I wonder if it could ever surpass the limits of a ZFS file system (if that in itself didn't require boiling the oceans)
# [01:23] <Philip`> (See e.g. the internet on top of the old voice phone system, where now nobody cares about the phone system and it's all replaced with high-bandwidth fibre optics and IP)
# [01:23] <Lachy> in fact, I wonder what the physical limit of the web's capacity will be
# [01:24] <annevk> we hit a limit with IP
# [01:24] <Philip`> Lachy: What do you mean by "the web's capacity"?
# [01:24] <annevk> but that's being resolved in some way
# [01:24] <Lachy> there's only so much data that could ever be stored in any possible storate system, given the limits of quantum mechanics
# [01:25] <Philip`> I can make a site that serves a billion files that are each a gigabyte, but that isn't increasing capacity in any useful way
# [01:25] <annevk> hsivonen, yeah http://pastebin.ca/992541 is a good start, thanks
# [01:26] * annevk saves the text in a file somewhere
# [01:26] <Lachy> Philip`, yeah, I'm only considering data that is actually stored and not generated on the fly
# [01:27] <Lachy> but I suppose, the universe is big enough such that the limit won't be reached before human civilisation dies out
# [01:27] <Philip`> Lachy: So you could measure its upper bound as the combined storage space used by all devices connected to the internet? That sounds kind of reasonble
# [01:27] <Philip`> s//a/
# [01:28] <Lachy> yes
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# [01:29] <Philip`> Lachy: You may be underestimating exponential growth
# [01:30] <Hixie> annevk: i just recommend always starting threads publicly :-)
# [01:31] <Philip`> Search engines index about 10^10 pages, and if that doubles every year then in 236 years you'll get 10^80 pages, which is about the number of atoms in the universe
# [01:31] <Dashiva> But how many of those 10^10 are generated?
# [01:31] <Philip`> and civilisation might survive that long
# [01:31] <Lachy> But the IPv4 address range will run out in a few years, and the web will either level off or die out soon after
# [01:32] <annevk> Hixie, fair enough
# [01:32] <Philip`> Dashiva: Search engines cache those pages, so even if they were generated once then they're statically served now
# [01:32] <Dashiva> Does google index e.g. live search?
# [01:33] <annevk> Lachy, if that happens and IPv6 doesn't work we should start working on IPv5 :)
# [01:33] <Dashiva> Recursion! :D
# [01:33] <Lachy> annevk, ipv6 has already failed
# [01:33] <Hixie> ipv6 hasn't failed as much as you might think
# [01:33] <Philip`> Dashiva: archive.org says it has 10^11 pages already, and they're actually stored somewhere
# [01:34] <Lachy> For it to succeed, ISPs should have been distributing IPv4 and IPv6 addresses to subscribers for the past 10 years
# [01:34] <Hixie> e.g. comcast is deploying it internally and most of their set top boxes use it exclusively, because they've run out of IP addresses already for their customers
# [01:34] <Hixie> ipv6 can be used without end-users seeing it
# [01:34] <Philip`> but a few orders of magnitude aren't important, when we're multiplying it by 2^236
# [01:35] <Lachy> does http://ipv6.google.com/ work for anyone here? (I'm assuming it'll work for Hixie)
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# [01:36] <Lachy> it doesnt work for me, so my ISP isn't supporting IPv6 at all
# [01:38] <annevk> I hope IPv6 does have some kind of extension mechanism so we never hit some wall again...
# [01:39] <Philip`> We'll hit plenty of scalability walls before running out of IPv6 addresses
# [01:40] <Philip`> largely in things that are nothing to do with IP
# [01:40] <Lachy> annevk, ipv6 won't need it. It's 128 bit address space is large enough to last for billions of years
# [01:40] <Lachy> 3.4×10^38 addresses
# [01:40] <annevk> We never know what kind of thing needs an IP going forward...
# [01:40] <Hixie> the problem isn't the number of addresses
# [01:41] <Hixie> it's the way they are given out
# [01:41] <Philip`> Lachy: Not really, since you can't just pick the next unused number and give it to somebody
# [01:41] <Hixie> e.g. with ipv6, isps can and probably will give out 1000 IPs to their users
# [01:41] <Philip`> since it has to be split up hierarchically
# [01:41] <Philip`> Uh, like what Hixie's saying
# [01:41] <Lachy> Philip`, yeah, I know, but ipv6 has better allocation strategy than ipv4
# [01:42] <Hixie> that's possible
# [01:42] <Hixie> i'm just saying it's not a matter of numbers
# [01:43] <Philip`> There seems to have been some concern in the internet routing world in the past few years, because autonomous networks get a unique 16-bit ID, and they're running out of numbers
# [01:43] <Philip`> and they don't have a nice way of transitioning to an updated version of the protocol
# [01:44] <Philip`> but at least there's 2^16 fewer people involved than with IP
# [01:44] <Hixie> 16 bits isn't much for that kind of thing
# [01:44] <Hixie> wow
# [01:46] <Philip`> http://bgp.potaroo.net/cidr/autnums.html
# [01:46] <Philip`> Each number is usually a fairly big organisation
# [01:46] <Hixie> woot AS15169
# [01:46] <Philip`> but the world has too many fairly big organisations
# [01:47] <Philip`> AS36561 too
# [01:47] <Lachy> Philip`, that site won't load for me
# [01:47] <Hixie> damn microsoft has a ton of these
# [01:48] <Hixie> AS6432 too
# [01:48] <Hixie> hehe
# [01:48] <Philip`> Google has at least 9
# [01:48] <Hixie> oh?
# [01:48] <Philip`> On that page, search for "google" :-p
# [01:49] <Lachy> hmm. weird. It will load in Safari, but in Firefox it just gives up
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# [01:49] <roc> these are not fairly big organizations
# [01:50] <roc> they are every man and his dog
# [01:50] <Hixie> Philip`: oh i guess the page hadn't loaded yet
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# [01:52] <Lachy> I don't understand what those numbers are representing
# [01:52] <Philip`> roc: At least they're fairly big compared to individual IP address users
# [01:52] <Philip`> and I say anything larger than me is big
# [01:53] <roc> how big is this page?
# [01:54] <roc> ah finished
# [01:54] <Hixie> less than 64k lines, i guess
# [01:54] <Philip`> Lachy: They're the numbers used to identify nodes in the routing graph of the internet
# [01:55] <Philip`> Lachy: (where each node is actually a whole network, usually administered by a single entity)
# [01:55] <roc> it's at least 128K lines, there's all these AS1.xxxx numbers plus some random other stuff at the end
# [01:58] <Hixie> roc: ah
# [01:59] <Philip`> ASxxxx.xxxx is from the new 32-bit extension, but I have no idea how widely deployed or usable it is yet
# [01:59] <Philip`> Someone should place bets on which fixed-size integer field in an internet protocol is going to run out of space next
# [02:00] <Hixie> oh hey, i finally got that e-mail to which i received a reply two hours ago
# [02:00] <Hixie> (al's e-mail about alt="")
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# [02:56] <Hixie> woah
# [02:56] <Hixie> this e-mail suggests adding elements for all the following:
# [02:56] <Hixie> verbs, proper nouns, words that score over 30 in Scrabble, palindromes, words that can be written upside-down on calculators, words defined in the Oxford English Dictionary
# [02:56] <Hixie> (ok so it's being sarcastic. but still.)
# [02:57] <Philip`> Hixie: It would have been clearer that it was sarcastic if you hadn't rejected the <sarcasm> element
# [02:58] <Hixie> -_-
# [02:59] <Hixie> i still love the question i got from the xhtml2 camp when i gave my talk at xtech in 2004
# [02:59] <Hixie> (or 2005?)
# [02:59] <Hixie> 2005 i think
# [02:59] <Hixie> after explaining how we were doing things in the open, etc
# [02:59] <Hixie> they were like "well, how are you going to handle people who ask for an <irony> element???"
# [03:00] <Hixie> apparently the concept of just saying "no" to requests hadn't come up before
# [03:00] <Dashimon> Hixie: Maybe they were being ironic
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# [03:01] <Hixie> maybe
# [03:01] <Philip`> Hixie: If you keep saying no to requests, you'll work yourself out of a job since there won't be any unrejected requests left to work on
# [03:02] <Hixie> same happens if i say yes: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html
# [03:03] <Philip`> Either you have been processing issues very chaotically and travelling backwards and forwards in time, or Opera 9.2 has canvas bugs
# [03:04] <Dashimon> I'm seeing two green lines in 9.2
# [03:04] <Philip`> Hopefully at some point people will start writing test cases, and finding lots of issues in the spec, so the line will start shooting up again
# [03:05] <Dashimon> 9.5 gets the green line right, but only shows blue for the very latest week
# [03:05] <Philip`> That's because the blue data only exists for the last week
# [03:07] <Dashimon> How non-buggish
# [03:08] <Hixie> heh
# [03:09] <Hixie> if anyone wants to go back and pull every version of the spec back to last september and count the number of XXX/big-issue markers over time, be my guest :-D
# [03:09] <Dashimon> I'm sure Philip` is already doing it
# [03:10] <Hixie> on the extreme off-chance that some crazy person wants to do this, the times and dates for which i have green dots are the times and dates in this file: http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.csv
# [03:10] <Philip`> I think I'll go to bed instead :-p
# [03:10] <Hixie> :-)
# [03:11] <Philip`> (Does XXXX count as one?)
# [03:11] <Philip`> (Not that I really care since I'm not going to do anything with this)
# [03:12] <Hixie> my algorithm is: ... @issues = $spec =~ m/(XXX|big-issue)/gos; return scalar @issues;
# [03:12] * Dashimon hides from the perl
# [03:12] <Hixie> also, if you did want to do this, but not do it for every day, the script already supports just having data for a few random days
# [03:12] <Philip`> <p class=big-issue>Big Issue! Get yer Big Issue here!</p>
# [03:12] <Hixie> it'll just draw the line straight across any points its missing
# [03:12] * takkaria chuckles
# [03:12] <Hixie> it's
# [03:14] * Philip` once saw someone trying to sell the Big Issue by saying "spare a shekel for an old ex-leper" repeatedly
# [03:15] <Philip`> (I'm not sure how successful that strategy was)
# [03:17] <Dashimon> Hixie: So if it were to be done (which it won't) it would only be worthwhile to check points that have email data?
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# [03:18] <Philip`> Hixie: When Dashimon implements this, what should happen on days that have multiple commits and multiple distinct XXX counts?
# [03:19] * Dashimon is now known as Dashiva
# [03:19] <Philip`> s/Dashimon/Dashiva/
# [03:19] <Dashiva> I figured I would simply (except I won't) take the commit closest to thet email ts
# [03:20] <Hixie> Dashiva: well, if we get more data out of this than the precision of the green line, i'll have to rewrite the script that generates the graph to handle missing green dots too
# [03:20] <Hixie> Dashiva: which would be work for me :-)
# [03:20] <Hixie> Philip`: the .csv file has exact timestamps
# [03:20] <Hixie> Philip`: so there's no ambiguity
# [03:20] <Philip`> Ah
# [03:20] <Dashiva> Man, we have it all figured out, too bad we aren't going to do it
# [03:23] <Hixie> indeed
# [03:23] <Hixie> how about if i give 15 points to someone for doing it
# [03:23] <Dashiva> Nooo
# [03:24] <Dashiva> I'm secretly going to do it in secret without telling anyone in a few days, but now it'll seem it was for the points
# [03:24] <Hixie> lol
# [03:24] * Hixie makes a note to secretely not do any work in a few days since his server is going to be crushed by the load of 1000+ checkouts
# [03:25] <takkaria> secretly doing it in secret without telling anyone seems like a lot of secrecy for one person to maintain. :)
# [03:25] <Dashiva> How did you know I was going to do a new checkout for each timestamp?
# [03:25] <Hixie> Dashiva: how else would you do it?
# [03:26] <takkaria> svn update to a given time would be more efficient
# [03:26] <Hixie> on your side maybe :-P
# [03:26] <Hixie> svn update requires the server to do a diff :-P
# [03:26] * takkaria grins
# [03:27] * Hixie makes a note to increase his RAM allocation for a bit
# [03:27] <Philip`> Use svnsync to make a local copy of the repository, then do checkouts on that
# [03:27] <Hixie> heh
# [03:28] <takkaria> even better, Hixie should just tarball up the repo and put it online briefly
# [03:28] <Hixie> not sure how to do that
# [03:28] <Dashiva> I recould reverse the commit timeline using the archive of commit-watchers
# [03:28] <Hixie> heh
# [03:28] <Hixie> i guess you could!
# [03:29] <Hixie> if you really do want to do this, i really would just encourage you to do the simple route of a bunch of timestamp checkouts :-)
# [03:29] <Hixie> do you want the code i used to get the counts?
# [03:30] <Dashiva> Well, for now I'm just going to sleep. We'll see if I remember about it when I wake up :)
# [03:30] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/312
# [03:30] <Hixie> nothing special
# [03:30] <Philip`> Hmm, svnsync goes pretty slowly
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# [03:36] <Philip`> svn cat http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/source -r "{`date -u --rfc-3339 seconds -d 'Sun Apr 20 03:08:19 2008'|cut -c-19`}"|perl -e'local $/; print scalar (() = <> =~ /XXX|big-marker/g)'
# [03:37] <Philip`> That's the easy way to get the count for any given timestamp
# [03:37] <Hixie> well
# [03:37] <Hixie> you're nearly done then!
# [03:38] <Hixie> put a loop around that and mail me the results and i'll add them to the data file :-D
# [03:38] <Philip`> Oh, I don't want to be done, because then I'd have been wrong when I said I wasn't going to do it
# [03:38] <Hixie> haha
# [03:38] <Hixie> Dashiva: put a loop around it, then you'll be the one who did it :-)
# [03:38] <Philip`> Anyway I'm just seeing if svnsync will make it run quicker from a local repository than remote
# [03:38] <Philip`> except svnsync is taking forever
# [03:44] <Hixie> <abbr> has optional title="" again.
# [03:44] <Hixie> and i added another example to <abbr> to show this.
# [03:51] <Philip`> cut -c19-42 data.csv|xargs -d '\n' -n 1 -I blah -- date -u --rfc-3339 seconds -d 'blah'|cut -c-19|perl -ne'chomp; print "$_ \t", scalar (() = `svn cat http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/source -r "{$_}"` =~ /XXX|big-marker/g), "\n"'
# [03:51] <Philip`> That does it for all the timestamps, I think
# [03:52] <Philip`> Maybe that would help whoever's going to do this
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# [03:56] <Philip`> Hixie: The "Philip`" looks ugly with punctuation :-p
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# [03:58] <Philip`> Smallcaps styling seems a reason to have <acronym>, since you normally only want smallcaps on acronymic abbreviations and not any other kind of abbreviation
# [03:58] <Hixie> class="" baby
# [03:58] <Hixie> anyway, bbl
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# [04:13] <Philip`> Ooh, svnsync finished, so now I have a 50MB copy of the whole revision history
# [04:14] <Philip`> and 'svn cat' works very much faster than on svn.whatwg.org
# [04:15] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
# [04:17] <Philip`> Oh, someone should have told me that I wrote big-marker instead of big-issue
# [04:21] <Philip`> Hixie: Dashiva just emailed me http://philip.html5.org/misc/spec-issue-marker-count.txt
# [04:21] <Philip`> I guess I was too late :-(
# [04:22] <Philip`> but I suppose that doesn't matter since I can't even remember what the point of this was
# [04:22] * Philip` sleeps
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# [04:49] <Hixie> man you guys are all crazy and awesome
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# [04:56] <Hixie> wtf did i do on Fri Apr 11 09:06:28 2008,504
# [04:57] <Hixie> oh.
# [04:57] <Hixie> WebIDL XXXs.
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# [05:22] <Hixie> who implements <event-source> these days other than opera?
# [05:26] <othermaciej> we had a preliminary patch for WebKit at one point
# [05:27] <othermaciej> I think we were waiting for the design simplifications to settle
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# [05:30] <Hixie> they're pretty settled now
# [05:30] <Hixie> i have no pending feedback
# [05:30] <Hixie> just replied to the last mail on the topic
# [05:31] <jwalden> there was a preliminary patch for Mozilla, too, circa 200612 or so, if I remember right
# [05:47] <weinig> Hixie: would you say that the postMessage spec is also pretty settled now?
# [05:48] <Hixie> no
# [05:48] <Hixie> there's a bunch of feedback still outstanding on it
# [05:48] <Hixie> in particular about sync vs async
# [05:48] <Hixie> will probably address it tomorrow
# [05:49] <Hixie> (i'm waiting for one piece of feedback in particular)
# [05:49] <Hixie> (which should be coming tomorrow)
# [05:52] <weinig> Hixie: ok
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# [06:01] <Hixie> what's an example of a list that gets edited a lot?
# [06:02] <roc> firefox 3 release blocker bugs
# [06:12] <Hixie> hmm, that's a good one
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# [06:29] <jruderman> that doesn't really get edited as a list, though
# [06:34] <jwalden> a fault of the UI rather than of the mental model, I think
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# [08:02] <mcarter> Hixie, thanks for your quick solution with the lastEventId
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# [08:19] <Hixie> mcarter: my pleasure, though i should emphasise that you're actually just lucky :-)
# [08:19] <Hixie> mcarter: i just happened to be going through folders that only had 1 e-mail
# [08:20] <mcarter> Hixie, how did my email end up being the only one in a folder?
# [08:20] <Hixie> mcarter: there was no other outstanding feedback for event-source
# [08:20] <mcarter> so I've got a number of suggestions I'm working on for tcp connection
# [08:20] <mcarter> any advice on how to make those go to just the right folder? ;-)
# [08:25] <othermaciej> if I were offering bets on features in the final spec, I would give tcp connection slim odds of making the cut
# [08:25] <mcarter> othermaciej, I think you're spot on giving its current state and lack of interest
# [08:26] <mcarter> othermaciej, but I've succcessfully implemented it in javascript, on top of sse implemented in javascript, and I have a number of suggestions that might help
# [08:27] <othermaciej> mcarter: I don't see how that is possible
# [08:27] <mcarter> othermaciej, and even if it doesn't make it into browsers right away, having a spec to base the javascript implementation(s) on is very nice
# [08:27] <mcarter> othermaciej, well, obviously not the protocol
# [08:27] <othermaciej> since the whole point of the feature is that it makes a raw TCP connection
# [08:27] <othermaciej> and does two-way messaging over the single established socket
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# [08:27] <mcarter> i'm not saying i've perfectly emulated a native implementation
# [08:28] <mcarter> rather that if you make your sse server open the actual socket, and allow the sse server to receive upstream over xhr requests and have some way of identifiying messages to a particular connection
# [08:28] <othermaciej> I do think a full duplex communication feature would be great
# [08:28] <mcarter> then you end up with a nearly identical api to tcpconnection
# [08:28] <othermaciej> but I a not a fan of the specific design of TCPConnection
# [08:28] <mcarter> is it the api provided by tcpconnection, or the underlying protocol?
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# [08:29] <othermaciej> by TCPConnection
# [08:29] <othermaciej> but I don't think the API is the big value add
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# [08:30] <othermaciej> if you want to emulate full duplex messaging and don't care how many connections you use, you can just use XHR
# [08:30] <MacDome> another CD came! yay!
# [08:31] <mcarter> othermaciej, so what is it that you think is wrong with TCP Connection?
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# [08:32] * MacDome wonders if mcarter is talking about the SVG 1.2 Connection object...
# [08:33] <MacDome> or something entirely different
# [08:34] <Hixie> mcarter: just sending feedback to whatwg@whatwg.org is enough
# [08:34] <mcarter> MacDome, http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/#tcp-connections
# [08:34] <Hixie> mcarter: it'll be put in the right folder when i read it :-)
# [08:34] <mcarter> Hixie, heh, the way othermaciej frames it, the right folder will be the trash
# [08:34] <Hixie> MacDome: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#network
# [08:35] <Hixie> i guarentee to reply to all actionable feedback sent to whatwg@whatwg.org
# [08:35] <MacDome> hum...
# [08:35] <MacDome> sounds scary
# [08:35] * MacDome wonders if Hixie saw mjs's feedback on SVG 1.2 Connection
# [08:35] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html tracks my progress on that front :-)
# [08:35] <Hixie> MacDome: SVG 1.2 Connection was a disaster compared to this
# [08:36] <Hixie> MacDome: though maciej things this is a disaster too, so... :-)
# [08:36] <Hixie> thknks
# [08:36] <Hixie> thinks
# [08:36] <mcarter> Hixie, the first two proposals are api, and I'll send them when i finish. I think there should be an explicit connect() function, and one more ready state (before connect() is called is a new readystate)
# [08:36] <MacDome> Hixie: well, I'm just glad you're the one specing this
# [08:36] <MacDome> Hixie: but in general I would trust mjs over you in this area (nothing personal)
# [08:36] <mcarter> Hixie, also, I have a pretty reasonable suggestion about the protocol, using HTTP upgrades instead of a custom protocol. I'll send that when i get it ready as well
# [08:37] <mcarter> just giving you a bit of heads up
# [08:37] * MacDome would have to think about what sort of evil things are possible with Connection
# [08:37] <Hixie> MacDome: his feedback is in the pile somewhere, and i have no intention of ignoring it :-)
# [08:37] <MacDome> Hixie: again, why I'm glad you're specing this :)
# [08:37] <Hixie> mcarter: cool, thanks
# [08:37] <MacDome> his SVG 1.2 Connection feedback was ignored :(
# [08:37] <Hixie> shocking
# [08:38] <Hixie> MacDome: iirc my biggest problem with mjs' feedback was that he wants it to use HTTP instead, and that seems like a giant amount of work for the server side
# [08:38] <MacDome> (for those who don't read Hixie, he's being facetious)
# [08:38] <MacDome> Hixie: http is definitely a smaller problem space
# [08:38] <MacDome> Hixie: and is stateless
# [08:38] <Lachy> Hixie, these statement's seem redundant in the spec: "If a dl element contains only dt elements, then it consists of one group with names but no values."
# [08:38] <Lachy> "If a dl element contains only dd elements, then it consists of one group with values but no names." - Since those cases are covered by the 2 subsequent conditions
# [08:38] <MacDome> Hixie: but I'd have to give it some thought
# [08:39] <Hixie> Lachy: hm, true, i guess
# [08:39] * MacDome just now realizes that he's in #whatwg instead of #webkit
# [08:39] * MacDome goes back to friendlier waters :)
# [08:39] <mcarter> Hixie, if you use http you could tunnel through proxies a lot easier AND stop worrying about connections to the SMTP servers without adding yet another simple protocol to the world
# [08:39] <Hixie> aww, MacDome, don't go away :-)
# [08:40] <MacDome> Hixie: I'm never far. and you have plenty of ways to reach me ;)
# [08:40] <Hixie> mcarter: but if you use http the server side goes from a ten line perl script to a 3000-line perl script
# [08:40] <Hixie> mcarter: and you'll end up with nobody ever actually writing a compliant server
# [08:40] <MacDome> Hixie: or you just put your stuff behind an http frontend
# [08:40] <Hixie> MacDome: how?
# [08:41] <MacDome> Hixie: how not?
# [08:41] <mcarter> Hixie, how about a protocol that is a strict subset of http such that you only need to know how to read a couple of headers and send back an error or ok header?
# [08:41] <Hixie> MacDome: the problem we're trying to solve is real-time duplex communication
# [08:41] <Hixie> mcarter: then it's not HTTP
# [08:41] <Hixie> mcarter: at which point, why bother with the pretense
# [08:42] <MacDome> Hixie: which is possible with two HTTP connections, no?
# [08:42] <mcarter> Hixie, the pretense is mostly there so that it starts as an http request and can use the browser's proxy settings to establish the connection
# [08:43] <mcarter> Hixie, i think http is a bad solution for a tcp connection, but practically speaking we *really* want to get through locked down systems
# [08:43] <Hixie> MacDome: the web browser can't receive connections, it's behind NAT typically
# [08:44] <Hixie> mcarter: can't you tunnel anything through 443?
# [08:44] <MacDome> Hixie: I meant that the browser could open up two conenctions, one which it sends on, the other which it receives on
# [08:44] <MacDome> i mean, I guess you should be able to do it with one
# [08:45] <Hixie> MacDome: if you layer that on top of an http frontend, you end up with two processes, where you really just want one
# [08:45] <Hixie> MacDome: onthe server
# [08:45] <mcarter> Hixie, the main issue isn't really the port number so much as the forward proxy sitting between you and the outside world (where "you" is some poor student or employee.)
# [08:45] * MacDome goes back to fixing CSS3 bugs
# [08:45] <Hixie> mcarter: do https: connections go through said proxy?
# [08:45] <mcarter> Hixie, yeah
# [08:46] * MacDome claims ignorance for all networking issues
# [08:46] <Hixie> mcarter: i thought the way https worked was that all data was just forwarded through untouched
# [08:46] <Hixie> mcarter: how does https work?
# [08:46] <mcarter> Hixie, they start with a CONNECT, and then after that all data is untouched
# [08:46] <Hixie> oh
# [08:46] <Hixie> interesting
# [08:46] <Hixie> didn't know that
# [08:46] <Hixie> well we probably want to do something similar then, i agree
# [08:47] <mcarter> but we can't just open a connection to an arbitrary external address
# [08:47] <mcarter> we actually have to open the connection to the forward proxy, then use a CONNECT to specify the external address
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# [08:47] <Hixie> sure
# [08:47] <Hixie> that's ok
# [08:47] <Hixie> can't we just define that that is how this protocol is handled when there's a proxy?
# [08:47] <Hixie> i.e. that you proxy it over whatever HTTP proxy is set up?
# [08:48] <mcarter> so as long as the browser agrees to expose the proxy information to their TCPConnection implementation, and use connect, then it could work out
# [08:48] <mcarter> exactly
# [08:48] <Hixie> makes sense to me
# [08:48] <mcarter> I'll put together a proposal that outlines the problem and that solution over the next couple of days and send it in
# [08:48] <Hixie> that would be awesome
# [08:48] <Hixie> thanks!
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# [08:49] <Hixie> basically my main requirements are that: (1) there be the ability for one process to have a full-duplex communication channel to the script running in the web page
# [08:50] <Hixie> (2) the server-side be implementable in a fully conformant way in just a few lines of perl without support libraries
# [08:50] <Hixie> (3) that it be safe from abuse (e.g. can't connect to smtp servers)
# [08:50] <Hixie> (4) that it work from within fascist firewalls
# [08:50] <mcarter> yeah, those requirements are spot on
# [08:51] <mcarter> (2) is a bit tricky when you start requiring HTTP or even a subset of it
# [08:51] <Hixie> right
# [08:51] <mcarter> i still think there are a couple of other reasons why http might be a good idea, but i need to think about it more. I too want this to be as simple as possible so long as it works
# [08:51] <Hixie> oh i agree that there are a number of compelling reasons to base this on http
# [08:52] <Hixie> just not reasons that i would classify as requirements :-)
# [08:52] <mcarter> heh
# [08:52] <mcarter> so the spec seemed to indicate no resolution on the same-source origin policies for tcpconnection
# [08:52] <mcarter> i think there was some comment about "maybe allowing cross-domain" connections or something
# [08:53] <Hixie> yeah
# [08:53] <mcarter> even for cross-subdomain stuff you have the afore-mentioned dns rebinding attack
# [08:53] <Hixie> i plan to cut out all the crap about local network connections and peer to peer stuff and broadcast stuff
# [08:53] <Hixie> and to make it cross-domain
# [08:53] <mcarter> which a Host header you can solve dns rebinding
# [08:53] <Hixie> yeah
# [08:53] <Hixie> i was about to say i think we should include an equivalent to the Host header
# [08:54] <Hixie> that would allow for shared hosting, too
# [08:54] <mcarter> right
# [08:54] <Hixie> in some future where there's some cool thing that everyone is doing using this
# [08:54] <mcarter> also, i'm not convinced it makes sense to create a protocol that can't identify what version of the protocol it is
# [08:54] <Hixie> yeah, people always think you should version protocols
# [08:54] <Hixie> it's ok
# [08:54] <Hixie> you grow out of it :-)
# [08:55] <mcarter> haha
# [08:55] <mcarter> at any rate, I really do have a pretty neat implementation of the TCPConnection api, but over sse and xhr
# [08:55] <mcarter> it makes for a nice dream, of some day having that be native =)
# [08:55] <Hixie> you don't need to version the protocol if it's designed in a way that it extends with well-defined behaviour in down-level clients
# [08:55] <Hixie> :-)
# [08:56] <Hixie> (e.g. css and html aren't versioned)
# [08:56] <Hixie> (html4 and before look like they're versioned, but they're not really)
# [08:56] <mcarter> I'm not convinced
# [08:56] <Hixie> versioning doesn't work when you have multiple implementations and an evolving spec
# [08:57] <mcarter> well, thats a good point I suppose
# [08:57] <mcarter> Thats what headers are for
# [08:59] <mcarter> I don't actually care too much if we use http or not, i just need to put all my thoughts down somewhere and come up with coherent comparison of advantages and disadvantages
# [08:59] <mcarter> and send it to the list
# [08:59] <Hixie> that would be great
# [09:00] <mcarter> I am sort of hoping that a cross-browser implementation of the api (both server-side and client side, via javascript hackery and a server-side xhr/sse->socket proxy) can help push the standard forward in the face of browser non-adoption
# [09:01] <mcarter> so with the orbited project (open source comet server in python www.orbited.org) we are getting close to that, and even if TCPConnection it drops out of the specification, its a nice abstraction for server-side and javascript-side developers
# [09:01] <mcarter> I'll keep you posted
# [09:03] <inimino> that would be excellent
# [09:03] <inimino> (TCPConnection with a back-compat JS library)
# [09:04] <mcarter> inimino, yeah, and we've already got all the proof of concept work done on it. So you can expect it in the near future
# [09:05] <Hixie> please do (keep me posted). this sounds cool.
# [09:05] <Hixie> man i hope the forms stuff gets resolved soon
# [09:05] <Hixie> i have so many WF2 and WF3 feedback e-mails
# [09:06] <inimino> Hixie: how much of the WF2 stuff do expect to survive?
# [09:06] <inimino> (and what's WF3?)
# [09:06] <Hixie> i expect most of it to survive other than the repetition blocks stuff
# [09:07] <Hixie> though some minor buts might get axed or simplified
# [09:07] <inimino> ok, good
# [09:07] <Hixie> WF3 is the next version of WF2
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# [09:07] <Hixie> of course, if the w3c xforms crowd gets their way and the browsers all misteriously change their minds and agree with them, then wf2 could die altogether
# [09:07] <Hixie> i give that pretty low odds though
# [09:07] <inimino> is WF3 published somewhere?
# [09:08] <inimino> Hixie: yeah, I'm betting on XForms not going anywhere in browsers...
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# [09:08] <Hixie> inimino: there is no wf3 yet, just a lot of proposals in e-mail
# [09:09] <inimino> Hixie: ok
# [09:10] <hsivonen> well, title on abbr didn't last long
# [09:10] <annevk> "The new custom-* attributes are an attempt to address these requests."
# [09:10] <annevk> oops
# [09:10] <Lachy> Hixie, is WF3 just waiting for the results for the forms tf before starting?
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# [09:11] <Hixie> Lachy: no, wf3 is mostly html6
# [09:12] <Hixie> annevk: heh, oops. data-...
# [09:12] <zcorpan_> <section> This is the first paragraph. <del>This sentence was deleted. <div></div> This sentence was deleted too.</del> End of second paragraph... </section>
# [09:12] <zcorpan_> s/</</
# [09:13] <zcorpan_> Hixie: isn't the above 2 paragraphs with 1 del element marking the end of the first and the start of the second?
# [09:17] <Hixie> zcorpan_: it's two paragraphs and a div
# [09:18] <zcorpan_> Hixie: hmm, yeah ok
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# [09:24] <Lachy> it's interesting that for all the reasons given to allow title="" to be omitted from <abbr>, the only convincing one was the styling issue.
# [09:25] <Hixie> yeah
# [09:25] <Lachy> The thread could have been a lot shorter if people stopped giving non-convincing arguments.
# [09:25] <Hixie> in their defence they didn't know which would convince me :-)
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# [09:27] <Lachy> ignorance is no excuse! :-)
# [09:33] <Hixie> annevk: i think you should look up the word "explicit" (as compared to its antonym "implicit") :-)
# [09:34] <annevk> if I omit the argument it's an explicit choice :)
# [09:34] <Hixie> no it's not :-)
# [09:36] * gsnedders notes that the commit about plurals doesn't actually really define anything
# [09:36] <Hixie> hm?
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# [09:36] <gsnedders> Actually, it defines that the number in @title must match the number in the content
# [09:36] <gsnedders> But that's all
# [09:37] <gsnedders> implicitly I suppose it suggests not using <abbr title="working group">wg</abbr>s
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# [09:37] <krijnh> Hixie: Don't worry :)
# [09:38] <Hixie> gsnedders: it gives an example showing both :-)
# [09:38] <Hixie> it admittedly doesn't really answer the question the www-html guy asked
# [09:38] * gsnedders is too tired
# [09:38] <gsnedders> zcorpan_'s theory is definitely right. Everything I say is bullshit :)
# [09:39] <gsnedders> Hixie: My point is that it doesn't define which to use
# [09:39] * gsnedders nowadays always marks up the singular, though he used to use either the singular or plural
# [09:40] * gsnedders heads off to school
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# [09:42] <annevk> Hixie, the parser thing about <span> doesn't seem to be in any feedback folder
# [09:43] <annevk> oh, but it's a marked issues it seems
# [09:44] <Hixie> ?
# [09:44] <Hixie> the idea of having <span><section> or whatever?
# [09:45] <annevk> yeah
# [09:45] <Hixie> i replied to that already iirc
# [09:45] <annevk> no, not that
# [09:45] <annevk> stuff like <p><i><div><p>
# [09:45] <Hixie> iirc i replied both when i specced it and when i removed it again
# [09:45] <Hixie> oh
# [09:46] <annevk> I thought it was just <span>, but it's <i> too
# [09:46] <annevk> The thing that also allows <ul> in <p>
# [09:46] <Hixie> i have no idea what you're talking about
# [09:46] <annevk> <p><span><ul></ul></span></p> or something
# [09:46] <Hixie> right
# [09:46] <Hixie> the stuff that's in the spec as XXXSPAN
# [09:46] <Hixie> iirc i replied both when i specced it and when i removed it again
# [09:47] <annevk> but shouldn't the parser support it?
# [09:47] <Hixie> how does it not?
# [09:47] <Hixie> i am very confused
# [09:48] <annevk> search for '<p class="big-issue">This doesn't match browsers.</p>'
# [09:48] <Hixie> ah
# [09:48] <Hixie> ok
# [09:48] <Hixie> well if it's in the spec
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# [09:56] <annevk> In other news, why do we need a telcon for Access Control if the IE Team has yet to reply to all the issues raised...
# [09:57] <Hixie> dunno, ask
# [09:57] <Hixie> is there a list of issues they haven't replied to?
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# [09:59] <annevk> s/Access Control/XDomainRequest/ makes more sense
# [09:59] <annevk> Hixie, no, though some e-mail from Kris was quite complete
# [10:00] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapi/2008Apr/0056.html
# [10:01] <hsivonen> people don't change positions during telecons anyway, because they don't have enough time to think and verify claims to make an informed change of opinion
# [10:01] <Hixie> YUP
# [10:01] <Hixie> er
# [10:01] <Hixie> yup
# [10:02] <Hixie> been saying that for months
# [10:02] <Hixie> if not years by now
# [10:02] <Hixie> same with f2fs
# [10:03] <Lachy> I hate telcon's cause it doesn't give enough time to think and give a well thought out response either
# [10:04] <annevk> replied
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# [10:09] <jruderman> Hixie: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3Cobject%20data%3Dflash%3E
# [10:09] <jruderman> Hixie: in firefox, it somehow acquires a type attribute
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# [10:10] <hsivonen> jruderman: I don't see a type attribute in Firefox 3b5
# [10:10] <jruderman> try adding a space at the end
# [10:11] <jruderman> seems like it only happens if ./flash is cached
# [10:11] <hsivonen> whoa
# [10:11] <Hixie> jruderman: yeah isn't it awesome
# [10:12] <annevk> oh yeah, I noticed some scary activity in a bug report related to that
# [10:12] <jruderman> a mozilla bug report?
# [10:12] <annevk> yes
# [10:12] <jruderman> i'm having trouble finding it
# [10:13] <hsivonen> Hixie: I must say that the hardship of the datagrid content model is largely due to the content model being very abnormal
# [10:13] <annevk> jruderman, https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=395110
# [10:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: it's exceedingly weird that <datagrid><table/>foo</datagrid> is non-conforming but <datagrid>bar<table/>foo</datagrid> is conforming
# [10:14] <Hixie> annevk: i think it would be helpful to list a bunch of e-mails they haven't replied to
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# [10:16] <Hixie> annevk: did they ever send technical comments on XHR and AC, btw?
# [10:17] <annevk> there might be one where they agreed not sending cookies would be good
# [10:17] <hsivonen> Hixie: I think they sent one basically saying that the XHR spec was too detailed
# [10:17] <annevk> oh yes, they did e-mail comments on XMLHttpRequest, sorry
# [10:17] <annevk> though it mostly came down to what hsivonen says :(
# [10:18] <Hixie> i meant technical feedback
# [10:20] <jruderman> annevk: i don't think that bug mentions the mysterious appearance of a type attribute
# [10:20] <annevk> jruderman, could be, but that's the bug with the scary comments :)
# [10:21] <annevk> Hixie, I don't remember if the offlist feedback they gave a couple of years back contained technical comments
# [10:21] <annevk> Hixie, other than that I don't think so
# [10:23] <jruderman> filed https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=430424
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# [10:26] <zcorpan> Hixie: Error loading the folder list: Internal Server Error. Let Hixie know.
# [10:26] <Hixie> reload
# [10:26] <Hixie> haha
# [10:26] <Hixie> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/38482/XDRorNot/results
# [10:26] <Philip`> You're not allowed to see the results of this questionnaire.
# [10:27] <Hixie> annevk: what's the timeline on ac and xhr?
# [10:27] <jruderman> i wish it were more obvious which URLs on w3.org are password-protected
# [10:27] <Hixie> that url is the result of a vote on xdr
# [10:27] <Hixie> the results are 11 vs 2
# [10:27] <Philip`> Which are for/against?
# [10:28] <hsivonen> Philip`: that's Member-only information :-(
# [10:28] <Hixie> put it this way
# [10:28] <Hixie> 2 microsoft people voted
# [10:28] <Philip`> Ah
# [10:28] <Hixie> the vote was actually yes, no, concurr, and a space for rationale
# [10:29] <Philip`> hsivonen: It's not Member-only any more :-)
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# [10:29] <Hixie> the results were 2/7/4, with the two yesses having no rationale
# [10:29] <Hixie> and most of hte nos giving different reasons for voting no
# [10:30] <Hixie> it's just funny how the only votes without rationale are the yesses and two of the concurrs
# [10:31] <Hixie> i understand not having a rationale if you concurr
# [10:31] <Hixie> but if you vote yes, you'd think you could give one
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# [10:32] <jruderman> what's the difference between concur and yes?
# [10:33] <Hixie> if there are more nos than yesses, concurr means no
# [10:33] <Philip`> What if the no and yes counts are equal?
# [10:34] <Hixie> who knows
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# [10:35] <annevk> Hixie, AC depends on pending feedback from Mozilla which is still not there...
# [10:35] <annevk> Hixie, XHR is in Last Call and will hopefully go to CR in June
# [10:36] <Hixie> i meant xhr2
# [10:36] <Hixie> xxx if you will
# [10:37] <Hixie> not sure what to do about ac
# [10:38] <Hixie> i guess you could try to summarise the use cases we want to deal with
# [10:38] <jruderman> Hixie: err... how is it different from abstain, then?
# [10:38] <Hixie> and what the various concerns are
# [10:38] <Hixie> so we could try to come up with solutions
# [10:39] <hsivonen> jruderman: it affects quorum in some other voting cases
# [10:39] <Hixie> jruderman: again, who knows
# [10:39] <Hixie> voting is dumb
# [10:40] <hsivonen> uh. not quorum but how much over 50% the majority goes
# [10:40] <jruderman> lol
# [10:40] <annevk> xhr2 pretty much depends on ac
# [10:40] <Hixie> annevk: yeah
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# [10:41] <annevk> i think jonas is still saying we need a better solution for cookies, but it's a bit unclear to me why and how
# [10:41] <annevk> mostly why at this point, because i thought we already discussed it and the moz sec team was eventually convinced but then it was too late
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# [10:42] <Hixie> annevk: in that case, propose to move it to LC and see what happens
# [10:44] <inimino> Hixie: why was that mailing list message removed from www-archive?
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# [10:45] <Lachy> inimino, because Hixie responded to an off-list message by CCing www-archive, and Dean complained to the W3C that he didn't have permission to publish it publically
# [10:45] <inimino> I see, thanks, Lachy
# [10:48] <annevk> Hixie, I did and Jonas didn't like it
# [10:48] <annevk> Hixie, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-appformats/2008Apr/0043.html
# [10:50] <krijn> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080422#l-1148 - yeah, thanks Philip` ;)
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# [12:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: what's the chance of you banning nested forms in XHTML5 in order to make HTML5 and XHTML5 more consistent with each other?
# [12:26] <Hixie> pretty good if you mail the list :-)
# [12:27] <Hixie> although the chances are zero until i get to wf2
# [12:28] <hsivonen> ok
# [12:28] <annevk> forms :(
# [12:29] <hsivonen> aaarrgh!!! I've been trying to write code against a faulty set on test cases
# [12:29] <hsivonen> no wonder XPath seems crazy
# [12:36] <Hixie> jesus, "Uniform access to descriptions" is a long www-tag thread even for ww-tag
# [12:37] <annevk> is it interesting?
# [12:37] <annevk> i autodelete that thread
# [12:38] <Hixie> no idea, didn't look at a single message
# [12:39] <hsivonen> the moon message was funny if it was in that thread
# [12:40] <hsivonen> no, it was a different thread
# [12:40] <hsivonen> this one: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Mar/0026.html
# [12:45] <Hixie> wow
# [12:46] <Hixie> that takes architectural astronauts to a whole new level
# [12:46] <hsivonen> that's why it's funny
# [12:47] <Hixie> good lord
# [12:47] <Hixie> that thread gets worse
# [12:47] * Hixie closes the window
# [12:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: email about nested forms sent
# [13:05] <Hixie> thanks
# [13:10] <hsivonen> let's see if there's any way to shorten this list based on current spec text... http://bugzilla.validator.nu/buglist.cgi?component=HTML5+schema&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED
# [13:13] <annevk> Hixie, XHR2 also depends on progress events
# [13:13] <annevk> apart from that it's done imo although it doesn't get getRequestHeader what Julian would really like to see because he's been the only one to suggest that so far to me
# [13:14] <annevk> oh, and it doesn't have examples and an introduction ...
# [13:14] <hsivonen> if I implement checking for WF2 email addresses and mailto: URIs, which spec for email addresses should I be reading?
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# [13:15] <hsivonen> make that mailto: *IRI*s
# [13:15] <hsivonen> IIRC, the original RFC is nuts and allows crazy tokens that no one supports
# [13:18] <Hixie> the wf2 spec should sidestep that
# [13:18] <Hixie> iirc
# [13:18] <Hixie> anyway, bed time
# [13:18] <hsivonen> nn
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# [16:20] * Philip` wishes Gmail didn't keep going out of sync with itself
# [16:21] <Philip`> (It claims a message received from public-html has the label [Imap]/Drafts even though I sent it ten minutes ago)
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# [17:30] <Philip`> Oh, WF2 has a form attribute? That looks potentially useful
# [17:30] <Philip`> (but less useful when I need things to work in IE6)
# [17:32] <zcorpan> Philip`: i think there's at least one js implementation
# [17:32] <hsivonen> WF2 is designed to be emulatable in IE6
# [17:33] <hsivonen> (I don't know if form='' in particular is emulatable)
# [17:34] <takkaria> hehe, that TAG thread is amazing
# [17:34] <takkaria> they should go read some philosophy of language
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# [17:36] <Philip`> http://code.google.com/p/webforms2/wiki/ImplementationDetails doesn't seem to say it supports @form
# [17:37] <hsivonen> I wonder if Gecko and WebKit have a JS API for the form pointer
# [17:37] <Philip`> Is anybody able to access http://webforms2.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/ or does it give the "your query looks similar to automated requests from a computer virus or spyware application" error?
# [17:37] <annevk> hsivonen, <input>.form ?
# [17:38] <takkaria> Philip`: I can get it
# [17:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: I can GET it
# [17:38] <Philip`> takkaria: Okay, I guess Google just hates me
# [17:39] <BenMillard> Philip`, me too
# [17:39] <BenMillard> Philip`, I mean, I can get it too
# [17:39] <hsivonen> annevk: is that settable?
# [17:39] <annevk> hsivonen, no
# [17:39] <hsivonen> doesn't help then
# [17:40] <annevk> oh, I see what you mean, yeah, form="" is new and brav
# [17:40] <annevk> e
# [17:41] <hsivonen> http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/cwl/charter
# [17:42] <hsivonen> "Then CWL will realize a language barrier free world in the web and will also enable computers to extract semantic information and knowledge from web pages accurately."
# [17:43] * hsivonen believes the way to deal with the language barrier that actually works is *people* investing effort in learning English
# [17:43] <annevk> i doubt that's what tye
# [17:43] <annevk> they mean*
# [17:43] <hsivonen> annevk: what do they mean?
# [17:44] <annevk> i suppose people will have to modify said web pages first :)
# [17:44] <annevk> ah, it says that in the previous paragraph :)
# [17:46] <hsivonen> Esperanto and Interlingua aren't doing so great in enabling Finnish-Dutch communication
# [17:46] <hsivonen> perhaps CWL will
# [17:47] <othermaciej> language barrier free world?
# [17:48] <othermaciej> what?
# [17:49] <hsivonen> othermaciej: looks like RDF will free people from the oppression of having to learn English: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/cwl/XGR-cwl-20080331/
# [17:49] <Philip`> On the subject of natural language programming, I saw http://www.inform-fiction.org/ recently, which looks kind of neat
# [17:49] <Philip`> where you can write source code that looks like http://www.inform-fiction.org/I7Downloads/Examples/bronze/source_7.html
# [17:50] <zcorpan> hsivonen: LOL
# [17:52] <othermaciej> I see, so we'll solve the translation problem by just writing everything in the form of machine-understandable assertions
# [17:53] <othermaciej> all we have to do to solve the hard problem of translation is solve an even harder problem
# [17:53] <Philip`> You solve the problem by automatically converting from one natural language into a common machine-understandable intermediate form, and then converting back into another natural language
# [17:54] <Philip`> so you don't have to write everything (or anything) as machine-understandable assertions
# [17:54] * Lachy published a new blog entry http://blog.whatwg.org/reverse-ordered-lists
# [17:54] <othermaciej> instead of confusing English, I'll be able to read and write statements like agt(purchase(icl>buy(agt>person,obj>thing)).@entry.@past), I)
# [17:55] <Philip`> At least that's how I assume they intend to solve problems, because anything else seems silly...
# [17:55] <Philip`> ("CWL [...] shall enables [sic] users to develop conversion systems between CWL and each natural language." etc)
# [17:58] <Lachy> othermaciej, for those of us who are still stuck in the past with english, care to translate that? :-)
# [17:58] <othermaciej> Lachy: isn't it obvious?
# [17:59] <Philip`> "I bought a person thing"?
# [18:00] <takkaria> frankly they should just use lojban
# [18:00] <othermaciej> this is better, lojban with RDF syntax!
# [18:01] <takkaria> at least a couple hundred people already read lojban though. :)
# [18:01] <hsivonen> takkaria: lojban isn't doing great in terms of supporting existing content and legacy agents
# [18:02] <zcorpan> Lachy: it can be written as reversed="" in xhtml
# [18:02] <Philip`> Millions of people have experience with the language Oddle Poddle
# [18:03] <Philip`> and it's much less wastefully expressive than English, making it far easier for foreigners to learn
# [18:03] <Lachy> zcorpan, yeah, I know, but people are more familiar with the expanded form
# [18:05] <Philip`> Lachy: That blog post has fancy quotes in its example HTML, so it'll break miserably when someone tries to copy-and-paste it
# [18:05] <Lachy> oops, where?
# [18:06] <Lachy> I thought I removed them all
# [18:06] <zcorpan> also has <!– instead of <!--
# [18:06] <Philip`> Lachy: Everywhere
# [18:06] <Lachy> oh, no, that's WordPress automatically replacing them :-(
# [18:07] <zcorpan> does writing " help?
# [18:07] <zcorpan> or just omitting the quotes?
# [18:08] <zcorpan> "The reversed attribute is a boolean attribute. If present, .... If the attribute is present, ...."
# [18:09] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^ "if present" twice
# [18:12] <takkaria> I think that to prove CWL is expressive enough, they should write a copy of the spec in it
# [18:12] <Lachy> oh no, something has happened to blog.whatwg.org. It's not responding
# [18:13] <Lachy> ah, it's back now
# [18:14] <Lachy> fixed the quotes
# [18:14] <Lachy> time to go home, cya
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# [18:31] <Philip`> Philip`: When Lachy gets back, remember to tell him that <ol reversed="reversed" start="10"> should say 100 instead
# [18:32] * Quits: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [18:32] <Philip`> and s/Movies Sagas/Movie Sagas/
# [18:37] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@ti200710a340-2662.bb.online.no)
# [18:42] <Philip`> Lachy: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080423#l-910
# [18:42] <Philip`> Also it still says "<!– Items omitted here –>" instead of "<!-- ..."
# [18:46] <Lachy> aargh! I hate WordPress! Why is it replacing my -- with en-dashes!?
# [18:47] <hasather_> Lachy: yes, especially in <code>
# [18:47] <didymos> Philip`, damn, I commented on the start="10", failed to see here first :)
# [18:47] <didymos> s/see/look/
# [18:47] <Philip`> Lachy: It thinks bloggers are stupid and can't do punctuation, so it has to do it for them
# [18:48] <Philip`> or maybe it thinks bloggers are lazy and don't want to write –, and don't have an en-dash key on their keyboards
# [18:49] <Lachy> bloggers should just learn to type Option+- or Alt+0150 to get en-dashes
# [18:49] <Philip`> I don't have an Option key
# [18:49] <Philip`> or a numpad
# [18:50] <annevk> 쌬ame issue here
# [18:50] <annevk> ooh, what happened there :)
# [18:50] <annevk> maybe something does work
# [18:50] <annevk> 쌬 is what I get for ALT+0150
# [18:50] <Lachy> Philip`, you'll have to get a external number pad and install windows on your machine
# [18:51] <Philip`> Hmm, how wide is ─?
# [18:51] <Lachy> annevk, it doesn't work linux
# [18:51] * BenMillard joins the party by testing Alt+0150–.
# [18:51] * Philip` can't tell if it's en- or em-
# [18:51] <Philip`> Lachy: Um, no thanks :-p
# [18:51] <annevk> hmm, windows sounds like a nasty requirement
# [18:51] <Lachy> 0150 is en-dash, ,0151 is em-dash on windows
# [18:51] <didymos> Philip`, since it is monospaced, you really cannot tell :)
# [18:51] <hasather_> I use Caps Lock as a Compoes key, and use Compose+..- for en dash, --- for em dash
# [18:51] <hasather_> *Compose
# [18:52] <Lachy> hasather_, on which system, or which editor?
# [18:52] <hasather_> Ubuntu
# [18:52] <takkaria> hasather_: how do you set that up?
# [18:52] * Philip` has never found out how to configure his keyboard to do more than the default
# [18:52] <hasather_> takkaria: System > Prefs > Keyboard
# [18:53] <Philip`> (where the default is altgr+, == ─ and various other things on other keys)
# [18:53] <hasather_> takkaria: Layout Options > Compose key
# [18:54] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
# [18:54] <hasather_> and it's --. for en dash, not ..-
# [18:57] <takkaria> hasather_: v.useful, ta
# [18:58] <hasather_> takkaria: np, see also: http://www.hermit.org/Linux/ComposeKeys.html
# [19:02] <Lachy> wow, so far 3 different people have told me about that start="10" error using 3 different methods.
# [19:03] <Philip`> Lachy: Well, it is a very blatant error :-p
# [19:03] <Lachy> maybe if I had actually pressed save, they would stop telling me :-)
# [19:03] <Philip`> It's even in bold
# [19:04] <Lachy> I think it's odd that everyone has said it's the 10 that's in error, not the 100 in the sentence before it :-)
# [19:05] <Philip`> Nobody could believe that creationists only use 10 logical fallacies
# [19:05] <Philip`> and it said "counting down from 100" and "Top 100", so the 100 was used twice and was therefore most likely to be the intended value
# [19:06] <Lachy> That's what I thought too. It was 10 in my first draft, then I thought should put it up a bit :-P
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# [19:08] <Philip`> blog.whatwg.org says: Internal Server Error
# [19:09] <Lachy> wtf?
# [19:10] <Lachy> sometimes it doesn't respond, sometimes it gives errors, other times it works perfectly
# [19:12] <Philip`> It's strange how hard it is to make a computer accept a network message and send a file back without just randomly failing for no observable reason
# [19:12] <Lachy> I haven't changed anything settings on the server for quite a while, so maybe dreamhost is having more troubles
# [19:13] <Lachy> does anyone remember which server Hixie's site is running on? Is it Spunky?
# [19:15] <Lachy> dreamhost status is only reporting mail issues with spunky, so that wouldn't explain it
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# [19:48] <BenMillard> I've had a few people e-mail me about scope being absent from <td>: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-tabular.html#the-td
# [19:49] <BenMillard> they want it back for authoring convenience, mainly for row headers
# [19:49] <annevk> if it's header, shouldn't <th> be used?
# [19:49] <BenMillard> they don't want centered bold text
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# [19:50] <annevk> interesting, I thought accessibility was all about semantics :)
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# [19:50] <BenMillard> these peeps work in the real world, with designers and managers
# [19:50] <Philip`> The semantics could be defined so that <td scope> was a heading
# [19:50] <BenMillard> Philip`, yes that's what I think should be the case
# [19:51] <annevk> whatwg@whatwg.org :)
# [19:51] <takkaria> BenMillard: th { font-weight: normal; text-align: left; }?
# [19:51] * annevk wonders about potential counter arguments
# [19:52] <annevk> i guess it makes it less clear when to use <th>
# [19:52] <BenMillard> takkaria, that kills column header styles as well
# [19:52] <takkaria> ah. true
# [19:52] <zcorpan_> tbody th { ...
# [19:52] <annevk> th:first-child { }
# [19:53] <Philip`> th.plain { ... }
# [19:53] <BenMillard> zcorpan, that kills column header styles as well because nobody uses <thead> outside the blogs of markup enthusiasts :)
# [19:53] <Philip`> Your selectors are all far to complex :-p
# [19:53] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: :)
# [19:53] <annevk> th[scope] { }
# [19:53] <zcorpan_> annevk: doesn't work in ie6
# [19:53] <zcorpan_> moreover, why do you need scope if you use <th>?
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# [19:54] <BenMillard> indeed, if you use <th scope="row"> and then undo it with CSS you may as well use <td scope="row"> imho
# [19:54] <zcorpan_> just <td>?
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# [19:55] <Philip`> BenMillard: "nobody" is a dangerous thing to say -
# [19:55] <Philip`> s/end of line//
# [19:55] <Philip`> http://www.budapestinfo.hu/ looks like a counter-example, since it's a touristical site and not a blog :-p
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# [19:55] <Philip`> and it seems to actually use <thead> sanely
# [19:56] <annevk> If td and scope needs to work the next thing you get is headers pointing to td
# [19:56] <BenMillard> annevk, yes I thought headers+id should match <td id>
# [19:57] <annevk> that's not the case currently
# [19:57] <annevk> I like the current model more, to be honest
# [19:57] <annevk> But I don't really feel strongly about this
# [19:58] <BenMillard> I think the advice we give should be "use <th> for all your headers. set styling with CSS"
# [19:58] <BenMillard> but supporting existing content and current authoring practices makes me think <td scope> and suchlike should also work
# [19:59] <annevk> should they be conforming?
# [19:59] <BenMillard> probably. if they work, why complain?
# [20:00] <annevk> true
# [20:01] <BenMillard> mind if I send the mail to public-HTML rather than WHATWG? that's where the people who mailed me will expect to see any discussion
# [20:01] * Philip` is happy with anything that isn't cross-posted :-)
# [20:02] <annevk> BenMillard, heh, no need to ask me permission where you'd like to send e-mail :)
# [20:04] <zcorpan_> BenMillard: mail it to Hixie and cc the secret whatwg cabal
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# [20:04] <BenMillard> zcorpan, shhh, don't talk about that in public...
# [20:04] <zcorpan_> oops!
# [20:05] <BenMillard> :D
# [20:05] <annevk> what, you're saying this channel is logged?
# [20:05] <Philip`> Don't worry, we can delete that line from the logs
# [20:05] * annevk though this was the secret hangout of the whatwg cabal
# [20:05] <annevk> thought, even
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# [20:05] <zcorpan_> krijn: gotta help us out here
# [20:06] <BenMillard> I'm putting together a little e-mail to start a thread on public-HTML about <td scope> and <td> with headers+id now
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# [20:18] <hsivonen> BenMillard: I'd rather have align back
# [20:19] <Philip`> hsivonen: That wouldn't solve the boldness problem
# [20:19] <Philip`> and I don't think <th></b>Not bold text</th> could be made to work
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# [20:21] <zcorpan_> Philip`: would have worked in mosaic if it supported <th>, i guess
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# [20:22] <annevk> yet more flames: http://intertwingly.net/blog/2008/04/19/Ingrates#c1208969184
# [20:23] <annevk> "... I haven’t been tracking who’s on what side of the train wreck that is HTML5 ..."
# [20:23] <Philip`> At least it's clear enough which side he's on
# [20:24] <Philip`> Anyway, I like train wrecks, they make me think of Half Life 2
# [20:24] <BenMillard> e-mail sent
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# [20:27] <BenMillard> "Allowing <th scope> to avoid incorrect values also seems potentially useful." actually that's stupid and wrong and I feel stupid for writing it :P
# [20:27] <BenMillard> simply writing <th> does that already
# [20:28] <hsivonen> Philip`: why is the default bold a problem?
# [20:28] <BenMillard> hsivonen, designs don't always want bold table headers
# [20:29] <BenMillard> it's rather a heavy-handed style in designs which are otherwise light
# [20:29] <hsivonen> turning it off in CSS is trivial
# [20:29] <Philip`> hsivonen: Changing alignment in CSS is similarly trivial, so why would you rather have align back?
# [20:30] <hsivonen> Philip`: cell alignment tends to be contextual
# [20:30] <BenMillard> hsivonen, the problem is when some headers should be bold but others should not. commonly, bold column headers and non-bold row headers
# [20:30] <hsivonen> while th font tends to be a site-global thing
# [20:31] <hsivonen> BenMillard: hmm. that seems like a weird thing to want
# [20:31] <BenMillard> hsivonen, that's why you and I aren't a designers :)
# [20:31] <hsivonen> tbody th { font-weight: normal; }
# [20:31] <BenMillard> hsivonen, that was suggested a bit earlier
# [20:32] <hsivonen> I have a really hard time believing that a designer can have enough clue to use scope/headers but not enough clue to write the above style rule
# [20:33] <hsivonen> I know, sense of logic at the door, but *still*
# [20:33] <BenMillard> it's a fair point
# [20:34] <BenMillard> the problem is it requires <thead> and <tbody> in the markup to work
# [20:34] <Philip`> hsivonen: Enough clue to use scope/headers, or enough clue to use them correctly?
# [20:34] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: the designer isn't necessarily the one writing the html and css
# [20:34] <hsivonen> BenMillard: actually, it only requires thead in the markup :-)
# [20:34] <BenMillard> hsivonen, pfeh :P
# [20:35] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: well, it's hard to believe that the person writing the HTML couldn't write the style rule
# [20:35] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: but <tbody> is shorter than </thead>
# [20:35] <Philip`> <thead> appears to be used much less than @scope
# [20:35] <Philip`> Everybody uses <tbody> but that's probably just output from tools
# [20:35] <hsivonen> Philip`: I thought the assumption was that the baseline was using them to point at the right cells
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# [20:36] <BenMillard> philip`, that's in line with what I find amongst companies I work with
# [20:36] <BenMillard> they've never seen a <thead> element, probably never noticed <tbody>, but have seen scope="col" and scope="row"
# [20:37] <Philip`> http://www.banfill-locke.org/ uses a 'tbody th' rule but doesn't actually have any <th> elements
# [20:39] <Philip`> http://finance.sina.com.cn/ used to have '#changeTop5 tbody th {text-align:left; font-weight:normal; padding-left:10px;}' but seemingly no more
# [20:39] <BenMillard> the things authors currently do to get around default styling a pretty awful
# [20:39] <BenMillard> s/a/are
# [20:40] <Philip`> http://www.espoo.fi/peruskoulut/kuitinmaki had a a 'table.Calendar td, table.Calendar tbody th {' but I can't access that site now
# [20:40] <Philip`> s/a //
# [20:40] <Philip`> So, it's not a very commonly used technique at the moment
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# [20:41] <BenMillard> it actually takes quite a lot of imagination if you aren't a markup expert
# [20:41] <Philip`> Oh, the page loaded, and it still has the calendar thing plus a 'table.Calendar thead th {'
# [20:42] <Philip`> and seems to be using thead correctly
# [20:43] <Philip`> so that's one page in 130K that uses CSS inside the HTML page (i.e. ignoring external CSS files) to style th differently in thead and tbody
# [20:43] <BenMillard> the first row in the <thead> is navigation either side of a title; not a set of table headers imho
# [20:44] <Philip`> Well, by "correctly" I only really mean "at the top of the table with some sort of headery stuff" (as opposed to e.g. wrapping the entire page in a thead in a layout table)
# [20:45] <BenMillard> yes, for that definition it is "correct" :)
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# [20:45] <Philip`> I automatically lower my expectations whenever I'm looking at web content :-)
# [20:46] <BenMillard> lots of bgcolor and style attributes (some just style="") yet it has a <link rel="stylesheet"> and a <style>
# [20:47] <BenMillard> it will be nice when everyone writes markup as good as we can
# [20:47] <BenMillard> I'm unsure if that will ever happen, though
# [20:47] * andersca is now known as ac_lunch
# [20:49] <Philip`> I don't think you should call my markup good, judging by some of what I seem to have written
# [20:50] <Philip`> It's far better than average, judging by what I've seen of average code, but much of mine is definitely not at all good :-)
# [20:53] <Philip`> Oops, looks like it'll start getting dark soon - time to go home...
# [20:53] <BenMillard> Philip`, useful stats and use cases as always :)
# [20:53] * hsivonen wonders if < and > comparisons with NaN in XPath are true or false
# [20:55] <Philip`> Maybe they are Not-a-Boolean
# [20:56] <hsivonen> Philip`: everything in XPath can be coerced to truthiness
# [20:57] <Philip`> Is everything necessarily coerced into a single deterministic state of truthiness, or could you split into a quantum superposition of every possible state?
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# [21:02] <hsivonen> I think test for attribute presence before trying to coerce into a number
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# [21:21] <Hixie> ~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!`````````````1111
# [21:22] <hasather_> Hixie: did your cat just walk on the kwyboard?
# [21:23] <virtuelv> looks like something stuck between the ~ and 1?
# [21:24] <hsivonen> custom kb layout?
# [21:24] <Hixie> yes
# [21:24] <Hixie> sorry about that
# [21:24] <Hixie> love them dearly, but they need to learn to not sit on my laptop
# [21:25] <Hixie> Lachy: i have a dreamhost ps, and it is configured to use slightly less cpu and ram than is sometimes necessary
# [21:26] <hsivonen> Hixie: can Dreamhost VMs grow and shrink RAM/CPU elastically?
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# [21:28] <Hixie> hsivonen: yes, but you have to request the amount if you want it to chanve
# [21:30] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok. It seems to me that Dreamhost and Amazon EC2 need some off-the-shelf Google App Engine-ish software for managing on-demand resource usage
# [21:30] <Hixie> heh
# [21:31] <Hixie> well google app engine has the same problem really
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# [21:31] <Hixie> if you hit your quota, you start serving 500s or some such
# [21:31] <Hixie> i don't see any way to avoid that
# [21:31] <hsivonen> credit card number and free license to grow on demand :-)
# [21:31] <annevk> e-mail / sms when you nearly hit it and allow for grow on demand
# [21:31] <Hixie> i'll take donations :-)
# [21:32] <hsivonen> free as in not restricted
# [21:32] <hsivonen> I took a look at what Amazon EC2 would offer for Validator.nu
# [21:33] <hsivonen> with the current load, it would be more expensive than the current host
# [21:33] <hsivonen> and the real problem with EC2 is that everyone needs to reinvent a system that fires up more VMs on demand and shuts them down on demand
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# [21:35] <hsivonen> (Validator.nu could be a good fit for App Engine for Java, since there's no writing to persistent storage or log-in, hence, the BigTable/Google Accounts lock-in risk would be avoided)
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# [21:45] <Lachy> Hixie, the spec doesn't clearly address this use case http://blog.whatwg.org/reverse-ordered-lists#comment-25249
# [21:45] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-forms/2008Apr/att-0099/2008-04-23.html#topic9
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# [21:45] <Lachy> although, maybe that's because the use case itself isnt entirely clear. But, in any case, authors should be allowed to use ol for that instead of wasting time finding work arounds
# [21:46] <annevk> ^^ Forms WG on Forms TF
# [21:48] <Hixie> Lachy: i guess the strict answer is you use CSS, but yeah, few people are going to die if you just use <ol reversed>
# [21:50] <Lachy> hixie, yeah, it's not so hard to style a ul with numbers, but when the spec causes people to seriously question borderline cases like that, it's sometimes easier to fix the spec than to get people to realise they're wasting time and effort
# [21:51] <othermaciej> annevk: willI be depressed reading that?
# [21:51] <Lachy> But I can't think of a way to fix the spec, without blurring the distinction between ol and ul.
# [21:51] <Lachy> This makes little sense: "I think the disagreement is whether a core XForms processor should respond to the HTML brand of syntax. In the tag soup example, no, but if you had well-formed XML, would we expect an XForms processor to do that? Maybe RFC-2119 with May or Should instead of Must."
# [21:52] <Philip`> Which/whose disagreement are they referring to?
# [21:53] <Lachy> AFAICT, the suggestion is to use a relaxed conformance criteria in a way that leaves a big choice for implementers between 2 very different processing requirements.
# [21:53] <Lachy> which is, of course, a great way to achieve interop. :-)
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# [21:55] <Philip`> It sounds to me (in the absence of knowledge and context) like the question is whether all XForms processors must support the XHTML forms syntax, or whether that should be an optional feature that only some people (e.g. browser developers) will implement
# [21:56] <Lachy> ah, that makes a little more sense
# [21:57] <Philip`> (where "XHTML forms syntax" is something that's backward-compatible with current form usage but gets mapped onto an underlying XForms processing model, or something, I guess)
# [21:57] <othermaciej> I think they are talking about their proposal for a more HTML-like syntax for XForms
# [21:57] <othermaciej> (but still with many of the XForms differences from classic HTML forms, like <select1>)
# [21:59] <Lachy> I think, rather than focussing on syntax, they should be focussing on architectual consistency between the DOM/HTML's Form Processing model, and their XForms model. Syntax should be left entirely up to the HTMLWG
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# [22:00] <annevk> That depends on whether anyone is actually interested in implementing an XForms model
# [22:00] <annevk> Any of the browser vendors, that is.
# [22:01] <Lachy> annevk, I don't think any of the browser vendors would be.
# [22:01] <othermaciej> Lachy: according to them, syntax is architecture
# [22:01] <annevk> SVG WG has similar sentiments
# [22:01] <othermaciej> also, they assume that HTML Forms should transition to having an underlying XForms processing model
# [22:02] <othermaciej> also they seem to feel that "who specified this first" is architecture
# [22:02] <othermaciej> "Part of the issue there is that at the broader architectural level, one of the principles I was trying to get across is that all of the efforts to improve HTML going forward should adopt the principle that features that people would like to have that are already expressed in a prior recommendation of the W3C, that those prior recommendations should take priority on how to make that feature."
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# [22:02] <annevk> fortunately HTML was defined first :)
# [22:03] <annevk> (though that's a lame argument, see CSS Ani vs SVG Ani)
# [22:03] <hsivonen> it's a lame argument, yes
# [22:04] <hsivonen> but indeed HTML forms were here first and have awesome deployment and network effects
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# [22:06] <Lachy> maybe the problem is that the XForms WG are working on this backwards. They already have their solution, and their trying to map that solution onto HTML Forms, instead of looking directly at the problems with HTML forms and working out how to solve them without pre-conceived solutions
# [22:06] <othermaciej_> well, their architecture is already perfect
# [22:07] <othermaciej_> so they just have to figure out how to fix the flawed HTML Forms model to map to it
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# [22:08] <hsivonen> I don't see what their XForms business continuity case is once the outcome gets far enough from XForms code-wise
# [22:08] <takkaria> I'm not quite sure what "We should ask how Web Forms 2.0 tables and repetition map into a recognized data layer, with their syntax?" means, esp. "recognised data layer"
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# [22:09] <Slant> Has anyone noticed that the CSS keywords "thin" and "thick" aren't includedi n the sanitization rules?
# [22:10] <annevk> Slant, if you're talking about the wiki page on that, dunno, feel free to edit it :)
# [22:11] <Slant> annevk: I did a long time ago, and apparently it was reverted. I also reported it August of '07 on the Google Code issue tracker.
# [22:11] <Slant> I'm wondering what proper way to go about fixing this is?
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# [22:11] <Slant> (Write a script to go through the CSS spec and pull all the keywords?)
# [22:11] <annevk> I don't really have an opinion on the matter :)
# [22:12] <annevk> Did you add it to the talk page?
# [22:12] <takkaria> oh, people might be interested, I got accepted to work on a C-language HTML5 parser in Google's summer of code
# [22:13] <annevk> takkaria, html5lib like or for a product?
# [22:14] <annevk> Hixie, nice work on the FAQ :)
# [22:15] <takkaria> annevk: it's a standalone library intended to be used in a lightweight newish web browser
# [22:15] <annevk> cool
# [22:19] <hsivonen> takkaria: congratulations
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# [22:19] <hsivonen> takkaria: will it be libxml2-API-compatible
# [22:19] <hsivonen> ?
# [22:20] <annevk> othermaciej, yo, I raised an issue on DOM3Events and namespaces
# [22:20] <othermaciej> annevk: cool
# [22:21] <annevk> othermaciej, it seems MS is not that interested either
# [22:21] <takkaria> hsivonen: my current plan is to build a tree directly using libxml2 structures, so libxml2 API calls should work with it
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# [22:25] <annevk> issue-123 :)
# [22:28] <Philip`> takkaria: Sounds useful :-)
# [22:28] <Philip`> When are you going to be working on that?
# [22:28] <Philip`> (I need to try to finish my C++ parser before then :-p )
# [22:29] <takkaria> Philip`: from whenever ink arrives for my printer til September
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# [22:48] <hsivonen> ouch. progress has *lots* of inequalities to satisfy...
# [22:49] <Hixie> only three!
# [22:50] <Hixie> annevk: wasn't much work, but it needed it
# [22:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: there are many pairwise inequalities
# [22:51] <hsivonen> also, value and max sometimes coming from textContent is not helping
# [22:51] <Hixie> yeah
# [22:52] <hsivonen> I'm semisecretly hoping that the textContent alternative just went away, because doing it correctly in an internationalized way is going to be really complex
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# [22:53] <hsivonen> and leaving it English-only is a long list thread waiting to erupt
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# [23:07] <Dashiva> Hixie, Philip`: This is where I say "I told you so" :P
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# [23:10] <Philip`> Dashiva: Thanks for collecting all that graph data and sending it to me last night
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# [23:22] <Lachy> annevk, I just sent the proposal to drop NSResolver from selectors api to public-webapi
# [23:23] <annevk> heh, some people will experience a no namespace overflow now
# [23:24] <Lachy> yeah, I noticed. I wasn't expecting the issue to be raised againsed DOM3 Events
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# [23:25] <annevk> me neither, but I felt like saying it during the telcon and then I raised it so it was not forgotten
# [23:25] <Lachy> I filled out the arguments a bit more from what I had sent internally. I tried to cover all the possible counter arguments I could think of
# [23:25] <annevk> nice
# [23:26] <annevk> though namespace fans will be glad to know that the first spec I take to CR will be about namespaces :)
# [23:26] <Lachy> which spec is that?
# [23:26] <annevk> css3-namespace
# [23:27] <Hixie> Dashiva: about what? :-)
# [23:28] <Dashiva> <Dashimon> I'm sure Philip` is already doing it
# [23:28] <Hixie> ah
# [23:28] <Hixie> hehe
# [23:28] <Hixie> thanks!
# [23:28] <Philip`> Dashiva: You were wrong about that, since I wasn't already doing it when you said that
# [23:28] <Hixie> the graph is nicely flat
# [23:28] <Philip`> In fact, I never did it at all, I don't know what you're talking about
# [23:28] <annevk> will the lines ever cross :)
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# [23:30] <Philip`> By the way, if anybody ever wants to do something like 'svn blame' on the spec and doesn't want to hurt Hixie's server, I've got a local copy of the SVN repository on an otherwise-idle machine, though I suppose I have high latency and am therefore not very useful
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# [23:31] <hsivonen> does blame show anything else but blame Hixie for everything_
# [23:31] <hsivonen> ?
# [23:31] <gsnedders> or someone could just make a git clone of it…
# [23:32] <gsnedders> hsivonen: revision, date
# [23:32] <hsivonen> ah right
# [23:32] <gsnedders> (then other people could just clone the git clone)
# [23:32] <Philip`> It show the revision in which each line was Hixie's fault
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# [23:32] <Philip`> s//s/
# [23:32] <gsnedders> But we already know it's Hixie's fault, so who care's when he made the mistake :P
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# [23:32] <gsnedders> (And yes, I know there is a valid use-case)
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# [23:35] <Philip`> gsnedders: Why would a git clone be better than svnsync?
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# [23:36] <gsnedders> Philip`: because it stores it more efficiently, and blame itself is far quicker.
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# [23:47] <hsivonen> Hixie: unless I'm mistaken, just the attribute cases (ignoring textContent altogether) yield 20 different assertions
# [23:48] <hsivonen> first each pairwise inequality with attributes present and then comparisons against 0 or 1 when min/max is absent
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# [23:49] <Philip`> gsnedders: Who cares about efficiency? svn blame only takes 5m22.461s
# [23:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: sounds like you're doing it in a more complicated way than necessary
# [23:50] <Hixie> hsivonen: just get the values, set them to defaults if they're missing, and then check the inequalities in three steps
# [23:50] <Hixie> assuming you have a language like python that can do chain inequalities
# [23:50] <Hixie> otherwise, as 7 steps
# [23:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: would that lead to an error message that sucks?
# [23:51] <Philip`> Revision 1 is the most stable, with 8277 lines unchanged since then; then 1037, 1310, 1033 and 1036 still have more than a thousand lines remaining in the latest version
# [23:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: now I have 20 different error messages
# [23:51] <Hixie> hsivonen: ah well if you want to report each case differently then yes, you may well have a lot fo different checks
# [23:53] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, XPath isn't that great
# [23:54] <Philip`> XPath should have a python("...") function
# [23:54] <hsivonen> indeed
# [23:55] <hsivonen> or scheme()
# [23:55] <hsivonen> or at least conditional experssions
# [23:55] <hsivonen> or Python-style 'or' and 'and' return values
# [23:56] <hsivonen> I suppose with Jython, it would be possible to make a Schematron flavor that used Python as its query language
# [23:57] <Philip`> Or use Rhino and JS
# [23:58] <Lachy> hsivonen, I've got a small feature enhancement idea for the validator.
# [23:59] <hsivonen> Lachy: what is it?
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# [23:59] <Lachy> A general purpose metadata/atribute value inspection tool to help authors inspect the values of title="" attributes (especially for <abbr>), href attributes for links, etc.
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# Session Close: Thu Apr 24 00:00:01 2008

The end :)