/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-02 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri May 02 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
  3. # [00:00] <Philip`> Presumably a problem is that it has to wait until after the font has been downloaded
  4. # [00:01] <Hixie> font download presumably will be defined to delay onload
  5. # [00:01] <Hixie> hmm
  6. # [00:06] <Philip`> (By the way, I'd probably want graph labels to be aligned to what http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Typography_Line_Terms.svg calls 'cap height' instead of 'ascender height', since fancy cursive fonts shouldn't get placed so far down that there's space for all their large ascenders, since that'd look ugly)
  7. # [00:08] <Hixie> there's another problem, similar to the issue you raised about needing to align to the top, which is that to support Devanagari, Gurmukhi, Bengali, and other hanging indic scripts that want to render multiple font sizes we need to be able to tell the drawHText() method to use a hanging baseline instead of the alphabetic baseline
  8. # [00:08] * Joins: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@daz48.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl)
  9. # [00:08] <Hixie> yes, i meant the top of the em box actually
  10. # [00:08] <Hixie> not the top ascent height
  11. # [00:08] <Hixie> my bad
  12. # [00:09] <Dashiva> We need a typography5 to make line-height and other font stuff make sense to regular people...
  13. # [00:09] <Philip`> Reinventing CSS sounds like a bad idea
  14. # [00:10] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@124-168-117-1.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  15. # [00:10] <Dashiva> Wouldn't need to. Just add enough syntactic sugar around it so it's possible to use :)
  16. # [00:10] <Philip`> It seems easier and more powerful to have a drawElement() method (which marks the canvas as origin-unclean if it draws anything dodgy likes images or iframes or visited-vs-unvisited links)
  17. # [00:10] <Philip`> and then people don't have to learn lots of new API
  18. # [00:11] <Hixie> easier? no.
  19. # [00:11] <Philip`> (learn/define/implement)
  20. # [00:11] <Hixie> there are so many issues with that that i don't even want to go there.
  21. # [00:13] * Philip` wonders what some of the issues are
  22. # [00:15] <Hixie> plugins, rendering off-screen, defining what it means to render an element at all (e.g. what about backgrounds of elements that contain it), what happens with floats near the element in the document, what happens if the element isn't in a document, rendering elements that have 'display' of none, table-column, table-row, etc, compact, run-in, etc, working out where the top-left of an element is, etc etc etc
  23. # [00:15] <Hixie> not to mention that it relies on css being implemented
  24. # [00:18] <Philip`> Define it as deep-cloning the element, moving it into an empty new HTML document, then rendering that document in a viewport of size w*h, then copying the output back. Easy :-)
  25. # [00:18] <Philip`> (and you can probably do that already in Mozilla, with iframes and drawWindow)
  26. # [00:19] <Philip`> ((except for drawWindow not being web-accessible))
  27. # [00:19] <Hixie> uh huh
  28. # [00:19] <Philip`> Reliance on CSS seems like only a theoretical concern, given where this is going to be implemented
  29. # [00:20] <Hixie> yeah, the css issue is a real issue but one we could ignore
  30. # [00:20] <Philip`> Well, maybe there's some minor details I omitted :-p
  31. # [00:25] * Joins: jgraham (n=james@81-86-215-216.dsl.pipex.com)
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  34. # [00:28] <Hixie> anyone here speak japanese, chinese, or korean, even just a little bit?
  35. # [00:29] <Hixie> i want to pick a CJK character for an example without offending native speakers...
  36. # [00:30] <Hixie> wikipedia to the rescue!
  37. # [00:41] * Quits: htmlfivedotnet (n=dcostali@c-76-16-59-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
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  40. # [00:44] * Philip` hopes Hixie accidentally picks a piece of rude CJK wiki-vandalism
  41. # [00:45] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@clm-laptop.infotech.monash.edu.au)
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  44. # [00:52] <myakura> Hixie: i do speak japanese so might help you
  45. # [00:53] * Quits: jgraham (n=james@81-86-215-216.dsl.pipex.com) ("I get eaten by the worms")
  46. # [00:53] <Dashiva> Hixie: Just take the 'symbol' symbol :)
  47. # [00:58] * Joins: htmlfivedotnet (n=dcostali@c-76-16-59-120.hsd1.il.comcast.net)
  48. # [00:58] <Hixie> myakura: i ended up picking the 私 character
  49. # [00:58] <Hixie> is that ok?
  50. # [01:00] <myakura> yeah, that means "I" the first person in japanese
  51. # [01:01] <Hixie> right
  52. # [01:01] <Hixie> is there a good glyph i could use that very clearly is lined up on the ideographic baseline?
  53. # [01:02] <Dashiva> 国 maybe?
  54. # [01:03] <myakura> yeah, that's a nice pick
  55. # [01:04] <Hixie> ooh that works
  56. # [01:04] <Hixie> what does it mean?
  57. # [01:05] <Hixie> actually that one seems has a line on the alphabetic baseline, so it is misleading
  58. # [01:06] <Hixie> or maybe that's just the font i'm using
  59. # [01:06] <Dashiva> Where is the ideographic baseline?
  60. # [01:06] <Dashiva> Between the bottom of the king and the bottom of the square?
  61. # [01:07] <Hixie> (king?) it's below the alphabetic baseline and above the bottom of the em square
  62. # [01:07] <Hixie> just below the alphabetic baseline
  63. # [01:08] <Hixie> 匮 is more obviously aligned on the baseline
  64. # [01:10] <Hixie> 遺 even more
  65. # [01:11] <myakura> or 辺?
  66. # [01:12] <Hixie> yes
  67. # [01:12] <Hixie> is that one good?
  68. # [01:12] <myakura> that means "border" or "edge"
  69. # [01:13] <Hixie> so "私辺" isn't rude or anything then? :-)
  70. # [01:14] <Hixie> meaningless is fine, the alphabetic part of this example at the moment reads "Á ÿ f Ω"
  71. # [01:14] <Dashiva> 私達
  72. # [01:14] <myakura> "私辺" is meaningless, so fine :)
  73. # [01:15] <myakura> ah, 私達 ("we" or "us") is nice
  74. # [01:16] <Hixie> cool, i'll use that
  75. # [01:17] <Hixie> hey Dashiva did i add you to the acknowledgements yet?
  76. # [01:17] <Dashiva> Hehe. I don't think so.
  77. # [01:18] <Hixie> what's your name?
  78. # [01:19] <Philip`> (Dashiva: Make up an amusing joke name!)
  79. # [01:19] <Dashiva> (Philip`: Do you think he'll add it out of spite?)
  80. # [01:20] <Dashiva> I sent it in a private message so our log watchers won't find out!
  81. # [01:20] <Philip`> (Dashiva: Shh, he might hear us)
  82. # [01:20] <Dashiva> (Not that it can't be found in 5 minutes via google)
  83. # [01:20] <Philip`> The log watches could just look at the HTML5 diff
  84. # [01:20] <Philip`> *watchers
  85. # [01:22] <Dashiva> I'm gonna have to make an actually pseudonymous pseudonym
  86. # [01:23] <Dashiva> On the other hand, it's convenient to have a recognizable handle too
  87. # [01:25] * Quits: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@daz48.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
  88. # [01:28] * Parts: myakura (n=myakura@p1215-ipbf3008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("off to work")
  89. # [01:28] <Hixie> how about someone who speaks Devanagari? :-)
  90. # [01:29] * Hixie hopes that the Devanagari? letter "AA" isn't rude
  91. # [01:29] <BenMillard> I can't even pronounce "Devanagari"...
  92. # [01:29] <Dashiva> Can't help you on that one. My quaternary and quinary languages are German and Latin
  93. # [01:29] <Philip`> I can't even read the Devanagari page on Wikipedia - it's just full of boxes
  94. # [01:30] <Philip`> This is where you need the i18n expertise of the relevant W3C WGs :-)
  95. # [01:30] <Hixie> yeah
  96. # [01:31] <jgraham_> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070428
  97. # [01:31] <Hixie> luckily i've spent too many csswg meetings exposed to the i18n people :-P
  98. # [01:31] <Hixie> jgraham_: hah
  99. # [01:31] <Hixie> must've been the acid3 acks
  100. # [01:31] <Dashiva> jgraham_: That was for acid3
  101. # [01:32] <Dashiva> I was in the credits in the directory containing the unfinished test :)
  102. # [01:33] * Joins: roc_ (n=roc@121-72-173-175.dsl.telstraclear.net)
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  104. # [01:40] <Hixie> http://junkyard.damowmow.com/317
  105. # [01:40] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-175-169.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  106. # [01:40] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-f1e6328ee033494e)
  107. # [01:42] <BenMillard> I'm off for lunch, bye all.
  108. # [01:42] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
  109. # [01:42] <Philip`> Hixie: The font's too small
  110. # [01:42] <Philip`> Er, at least the small label font is - the others are probably large enough
  111. # [01:42] <Hixie> hmm
  112. # [01:47] <Philip`> (You should make it SVG and then I could zoom in and couldn't complain that it's too hard to read :-p )
  113. # [01:48] <Hixie> be my guest
  114. # [01:48] <Hixie> the original is pixel-aligned HTML :-D
  115. # [01:48] <Hixie> is http://junkyard.damowmow.com/318 ok ?
  116. # [01:49] <Philip`> It's easier to read than 317, but it would still make me unhappy if my eyesight was worse
  117. # [01:50] <Hixie> sure
  118. # [01:51] <Philip`> Could the labels be moved up by one pixel, so they don't merge with the similarly-coloured lines below them?
  119. # [01:52] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-82fd92d492d44864)
  120. # [01:52] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-82fd92d492d44864) (Client Quit)
  121. # [01:52] <Dashiva> Hixie: What if you made the image like 5 times bigger and then scaled it down in regular display?
  122. # [01:52] <Philip`> (You could ignore me because I'm just being too picky now :-) )
  123. # [01:53] * Joins: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-1d5ba7798817b52f)
  124. # [01:53] <Philip`> Dashiva: The nice sharp straight lines would disappear or go all smudgy
  125. # [01:53] <Philip`> and the text would be ugly since it wouldn't have the right hinting
  126. # [01:54] <Hixie> Philip`: http://junkyard.damowmow.com/320
  127. # [01:55] <Dashiva> Hey, that's practically readable when I zoom in
  128. # [01:55] <Philip`> Hixie: That looks better again
  129. # [01:55] <Philip`> The important question is, what's a suitable alt text for this image?
  130. # [01:56] <Hixie> a very long paragraph
  131. # [01:56] <Hixie> which i would include anyway
  132. # [01:56] <Hixie> and thus the alt will be alt=""
  133. # [01:59] <othermaciej> drawing an element into the canvas would be handy functionality
  134. # [01:59] <othermaciej> computing what is "origin-unclean" in there would be complex
  135. # [02:00] <Hixie> drawing an element into the canvas would be handy functionality, but i'm not doing it instead of text drawing functions
  136. # [02:03] <Philip`> If drawElement isn't impossible for implementors, I'd kind of like to have the simple text-drawing API (single font, single colour, single line, etc) and keep it as simple as is possible for labelling graphs, then have drawElement for full flexibility (mixing various font styles in a single piece of text, line-wrapping, word-spacing, line-spacing, etc)
  137. # [02:04] <Philip`> I wouldn't particularly like to have only one, since one is too simple and the other is too complex
  138. # [02:05] <roc_> oh, that again
  139. # [02:05] * roc_ is now known as roc
  140. # [02:05] * Quits: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp) ("Tiarra 0+cvs-1.158(2004/08/22)+svn-3004:4748: SIGTERM received; exit")
  141. # [02:06] <Hixie> Philip`: there are many reasons to have a drawing api, i just don't want to go down that rathole just yet
  142. # [02:06] <Hixie> i agree that we shouldn't go overboard with the text drawing api
  143. # [02:07] <roc> othermaciej: there are also issues like drawing the contents of file upload controls, which you may not want the page to 'see'
  144. # [02:08] <Philip`> roc: You can set the canvas as origin-unclean whenever something potentially unsafe is drawn to it (which, in the crudest approximation, is whenever drawElement is used at all), and then the page can't use toDataURL/getImageData to recover any information from it
  145. # [02:08] * Parts: hasather (n=hasather@90-231-107-133-no62.tbcn.telia.com)
  146. # [02:09] <Philip`> It'd be nice if using drawElement didn't disable toDataURL/etc, but in any case it's still better than not having drawElement at all
  147. # [02:09] <roc> yeah, that's what I did when I proposed canvas.drawWindow as a Web API
  148. # [02:09] <roc> one problem with drawElement is that if you pass an element that's not in a document, you have no style data so you can't really draw it
  149. # [02:10] <roc> drawWindow avoids that problem
  150. # [02:10] <roc> but it's not a biggie
  151. # [02:11] <Philip`> Hixie: If it's plausible that an HTML-element drawing API could be added in a future version, it seems like that'd be worth mentioning somewhere, so that people don't get worried by thinking that the simple text-drawing API is all they're ever going to get and start trying to jam all possible features into it
  152. # [02:11] <Hixie> since all the features have to go through me, there is little chance of any jamming going on :-)
  153. # [02:12] <Hixie> but if i don't include such a note, remind me to add one once i do the checkin
  154. # [02:12] <Hixie> i'm still researching at the moment
  155. # [02:12] <Philip`> That's why it's only "trying", by sending emails with elaborate proposals, which will get ignored and cause misery to the proposers
  156. # [02:12] <Hixie> right now i'm trying to work out how much of the alignment information should be in the method call and how much should be in out-of-band style
  157. # [02:13] * Joins: jacobolus (n=jacobolu@dhcp-0000036913-b5-5e.client.fas.harvard.edu)
  158. # [02:13] <Philip`> I think everything (except string and position) should be out-of-band (in attributes), because that's how the rest of the canvas API works
  159. # [02:13] <Hixie> makes sense i guess
  160. # [02:13] * Parts: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@wikia/Dashiva)
  161. # [02:14] <Philip`> Also the arguments have no natural ordering, so nobody will remember whether it's drawText(..., maxWidth, textAlign, ...) or drawText(..., textAlign, maxWidth, ...)
  162. # [02:16] <Hixie> true
  163. # [02:16] <Philip`> Also the string argument should come before the position arguments, to be consistent with drawImage and putImageData
  164. # [02:17] <Hixie> .baseline = 'top' 'hanging' 'middle' 'alphabetic' 'ideographic' 'bottom'; .textAlign = 'start' 'middle' 'end'; ?
  165. # [02:18] * Joins: Kuruma (n=Kuruman@h123-176-107-050.catv01.catv-yokohama.ne.jp)
  166. # [02:18] <Hixie> i hate start/middle/end
  167. # [02:18] <Philip`> .textPosition = '(top|hanging|...) (start|...)'; ? Nobody's going to want to read the values back, and nobody's going to want to set one without setting the other, so they might as well be one attribute
  168. # [02:19] <Philip`> Is anything wrong with left/center/right?
  169. # [02:19] <Hixie> most people will rarely set .baseline
  170. # [02:19] <Hixie> or at least never set it to anything but top or bottom
  171. # [02:19] <Hixie> people in other locales will set it once to set their baseline
  172. # [02:19] <Hixie> left/center/right doesn't work for drawVText() if you're passing vertical text
  173. # [02:20] <Hixie> (i guess it does work if you're passing latin text, since then it renders inline sideways)
  174. # [02:20] <Philip`> Ah, okay
  175. # [02:20] <Philip`> (about both things)
  176. # [02:20] <Philip`> It should be .textBaseline rather than .baseline because otherwise it's not clear that it's related to text drawing
  177. # [02:20] <Hixie> yeah
  178. # [02:21] <Philip`> Could allow left/start/top as aliases, and center/middle and right/end/bottom
  179. # [02:21] <Philip`> though maybe that'd just be horribly confusing
  180. # [02:21] <Hixie> i wonder what css3 does
  181. # [02:22] <Hixie> "In vertical text, 'left' aligns to the edge of the line box that would be the start edge for left-to-right text."
  182. # [02:22] <Hixie> i wonder what the start edge for left-to-right text is
  183. # [02:23] <Philip`> Horizontal text seems (based on my reading a Wikipedia article) more common than vertical text, even in CJK (at least in the computer world), so it makes sense to optimise for the common case
  184. # [02:23] <Hixie> yes
  185. # [02:23] <Hixie> totally
  186. # [02:23] <othermaciej> this is starting to sound scary complicated
  187. # [02:23] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's actually not that bad
  188. # [02:23] <othermaciej> I hope it does not require implementing a third text layout engine
  189. # [02:24] <Hixie> othermaciej: i'm explicitly going to make this require the use of the css engine
  190. # [02:24] <othermaciej> (in WebKit, although we share as much code as we can, we effectively have two for CSS and SVG)
  191. # [02:24] <othermaciej> ok
  192. # [02:24] <Hixie> and i'm thinking of not including drawVText() for now
  193. # [02:24] <Philip`> Would it be sensible to forbid newlines? (e.g. replace \n with ' ')
  194. # [02:24] <othermaciej> as long as all the state translates readily to CSS parameters
  195. # [02:24] <Hixie> but i want to make sure it's specced sanely first, then just have it commented out
  196. # [02:24] <Philip`> since presumably newlines make layout harder
  197. # [02:24] <Hixie> Philip`: newlines will just be stripped
  198. # [02:24] <Philip`> Okay
  199. # [02:28] <Hixie> hm, seems that we just want different alignment stuff for HText and VText
  200. # [02:28] * Quits: aroben (n=aroben@unaffiliated/aroben)
  201. # [02:30] <Hixie> well it seems css handles it by having complicated rules (different complicated rules in each draft) but i guess we can just leverage those
  202. # [02:31] * Philip` notes that mozDrawText seems to just not bother with bidi text at all
  203. # [02:32] <Hixie> that's ok for a demo experimental api, but the i18n guys, while less aggressive than the accessibility guys, still bite
  204. # [02:32] <Philip`> The users are a more important consideration than the i18n guys
  205. # [02:33] <Hixie> to you maybe! i don't want to be bitten!
  206. # [02:33] <Philip`> but if the i18n guys are aligned with the interests of the users then it doesn't make that much difference in practice, so hopefully that's the case :-)
  207. # [02:33] <Hixie> :-)
  208. # [02:33] <Hixie> i18n is far more complex than accessibility, but also far less subjective
  209. # [02:34] * Quits: eseidel (n=eseidel@nat/google/x-1d5ba7798817b52f)
  210. # [02:34] <Philip`> It also affects far more users
  211. # [02:34] <Hixie> it affects all of them :-)
  212. # [02:36] <Philip`> Text is hard, I want to stay with pictures and colours
  213. # [02:36] * Quits: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
  214. # [02:38] <Philip`> Could one argue that the text drawing API is intentionally designed to not harm accessibility, by being so limited (to a single line of text with no markup) that it won't encourage people to move any significant text from out of their HTML and into their inaccessible canvas?
  215. # [02:39] <Philip`> Maybe it's safer to omit the "intentionally", but otherwise that seems true
  216. # [02:40] <Philip`> (e.g. if you have a caption for a graph, you'd write it as HTML below the canvas, where it's easy for everyone to read, because it's too painful to try to print it all directly in the canvas)
  217. # [02:41] <Hixie> i'm not even going to go near that
  218. # [02:41] <othermaciej> text drawing on canvas is bad for more than just accessibility
  219. # [02:41] <othermaciej> you can't select the text, copy it, do text find in it...
  220. # [02:42] <othermaciej> but of course people already do images of text which create the same problems
  221. # [02:42] <Philip`> Browsers could still offer text-selection features
  222. # [02:42] <Philip`> They just need to be a tiny bit cleverer about it
  223. # [02:42] <Philip`> (and will break if people use putImageData)
  224. # [02:44] <othermaciej> offer text selection features how?
  225. # [02:44] <Philip`> Keep a vector approximation of the canvas, to remember the positions of the text boxes, and clip that against every other shape that gets drawn, and you'd end up with a way of mapping from any pixel back to the text that is visible under that point
  226. # [02:44] <othermaciej> by making the canvas backing store a scene graph?
  227. # [02:45] <Philip`> You only need to store the visible extents of each text box, and don't have to worry about remembering any of the other shapes
  228. # [02:45] <Hixie> ocr
  229. # [02:45] <Hixie> then it would work for other images too
  230. # [02:45] <othermaciej> maybe you could keep an SVG DOM as the <canvas> backing store
  231. # [02:45] <Hixie> the spec does suggest that already :-D
  232. # [02:46] <othermaciej> that would sort of defeat the point of canvas as an immediate-mode graphics API
  233. # [02:46] <Hixie> i didn't say it made sense
  234. # [02:46] <Philip`> The point of the immediate-mode API is that it's an immediate-mode API, not that it happens to be implemented on top of a bitmap
  235. # [02:47] <Hixie> actually the spec iirc just mentions it in an aside as a hypothetical way to support toDataURL("image/svg+xml")
  236. # [02:47] <Philip`> The IE VML canvas emulation is still an immediate-mode API, even though the implementation is totally not
  237. # [02:48] <Philip`> Then again, in real life people care about performance, and the performance characteristics of bitmaps and vector scene graphs are very different
  238. # [02:48] <othermaciej> and that makes it lack the actual technical advantages of immediate mode (e.g. no RAM explosion when you draw a huge number of shapes)
  239. # [02:49] <roc> supporting bidi wouldn't be that hard as long as you don't have to support styled text runs
  240. # [02:49] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-THREE-O-EIGHT.MIT.EDU)
  241. # [02:49] <roc> I mean multiple styles in the same string
  242. # [02:49] <Hixie> indeed, none of that in this api
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  246. # [02:52] <othermaciej> for cases where you want to apply bitmap-level effects to characters or otherwise use glyphs as graphical elements, a straight drawing API makes sense
  247. # [02:52] <othermaciej> but for use cases like chars, a convenient way to have a text layer on top of the canvas containing real text would be superior
  248. # [02:52] <othermaciej> *charts
  249. # [02:53] <othermaciej> because then select/copy/find works on your chart ticks
  250. # [02:53] <othermaciej> you can sort of do this now by positioning other elements over the canvas but that is hard to do right
  251. # [02:53] <othermaciej> it would be unfortunate if the only easier path led to a worse user experience
  252. # [02:55] <Hixie> i'm open to ideas
  253. # [02:55] <othermaciej> my "text layer on top" suggestion is not even a quarter baked
  254. # [02:55] <othermaciej> but I could try making a more detailed proposal
  255. # [02:56] <Hixie> sure
  256. # [02:57] <Hixie> i expect most people just want the text in the bitmap though
  257. # [02:57] <Hixie> so they can do things like layer crosshairs over the top or whatever
  258. # [02:58] <othermaciej> you mean for charts?
  259. # [02:58] <Hixie> yeah
  260. # [02:58] <Hixie> consider http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html
  261. # [02:59] <othermaciej> the chart on this page would clearly be better if the text was real: <http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080317-firefox-3-goes-on-a-diet-eats-less-memory-than-ie-and-opera.html>
  262. # [02:59] <Hixie> well for that kind of static thing i'd recommend using svg, not canvas
  263. # [02:59] <othermaciej> sure, but you could make similar charts from live data
  264. # [03:00] <othermaciej> like a stock price graph
  265. # [03:00] <Hixie> yep
  266. # [03:00] <othermaciej> or web site traffic stats
  267. # [03:01] <Hixie> why does the safari line just stop on that chart
  268. # [03:01] <Hixie> and is safari any better now? :-)
  269. # [03:01] <Philip`> Use a static SVG graph template, and then dynamically modify one of its <path>s to have d="M $x[0] $y[0] L $x[1] $y[1] ..."
  270. # [03:01] <Philip`> "Safari 3 and Internet Explorer 8 could not be benchmarked because they crashed during the test."
  271. # [03:02] <othermaciej> I think Safari for Windows crashed on that benchmark when the Firefox guys ran it
  272. # [03:02] <othermaciej> not for us though, on the latest SafariWin
  273. # [03:02] <othermaciej> and yes, memory use is better now
  274. # [03:03] <Hixie> cool
  275. # [03:03] <Hixie> someone should redo that graph
  276. # [03:03] <othermaciej> in this case Ars Technica did not rerun the benchmark they just posted Pav's results
  277. # [03:03] <othermaciej> which is lazy reporting
  278. # [03:03] <othermaciej> I think we'll post some memory use benchmark results eventually
  279. # [03:10] * Philip` tries to think of a use case for applying transformations to text
  280. # [03:10] <Philip`> If you've played Unreal Tournament, in DM-Morpheus there's that bit where it has a scrolling text display along one wall of a building to say who's currently winning the game
  281. # [03:10] <Philip`> I want one of those in my canvas 3D FPS, because they look cool
  282. # [03:11] <Hixie> the baseline values make no sense for drawVText
  283. # [03:11] <Hixie> for drawVText() we'd just want left, middle, right
  284. # [03:11] <jruderman> othermaciej: "eventually" = "when we catch up with gecko"? :P
  285. # [03:11] <Philip`> Is vertical text ever drawn left/right aligned, instead of middle-aligned?
  286. # [03:12] <othermaciej> jruderman: not necessarily, I'm not philosophically opposed to posting benchmarks we don't win yet
  287. # [03:12] <Hixie> Philip`: well
  288. # [03:12] <Hixie> Philip`: you always want it middle aligned
  289. # [03:12] <Philip`> othermaciej: Are there no marketing people controlling what benchmarks you publish? :-)
  290. # [03:13] <Hixie> Philip`: but you might want it anchored using a point on the left or right
  291. # [03:13] <Philip`> Hixie: Oh, right
  292. # [03:13] <Hixie> i guess you always know the em height, since you set it using 'font'
  293. # [03:13] <Hixie> so really this will always just offset your x by +/-0.5em
  294. # [03:13] <othermaciej> Apple publishes benchmark results and controls what goes on the apple.com/safari page
  295. # [03:14] <othermaciej> the WebKit blog is mainly about technical information and not as influenced by marketing concerns
  296. # [03:14] <othermaciej> though obviously we prefer to post when we have good news
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  299. # [03:28] <Hixie> ooh, first actual casualty of the way canvas doesn't have separate path objects
  300. # [03:28] <Hixie> you can't draw text along a path to a path
  301. # [03:28] <Hixie> or rather you can't draw two pieces of text along two different paths to the same path
  302. # [03:33] * othermaciej is not following
  303. # [03:33] <othermaciej> two different paths to the same path?
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  305. # [03:34] <Hixie> path3.addTextToPath("foo", path1); path3.addTextToPath("bar", path2);
  306. # [03:34] <Hixie> no way to do that in <canvas> without adding path objects
  307. # [03:34] <Philip`> Can you use text as a path to draw text around?
  308. # [03:34] <Hixie> i am considering both drawing text to a path and drawing text on a path
  309. # [03:34] <Philip`> You could make a neat fractal pattern like that
  310. # [03:34] <Hixie> but i wished to do both
  311. # [03:35] <Hixie> see e.g. the demos at the bottom of http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs/Drawing_text_using_a_canvas in ff3
  312. # [03:36] <jruderman> Philip`: ooh, that sounds neat
  313. # [03:36] * Quits: alp (n=alp@host-84-9-46-160.dslgb.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  314. # [03:36] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#text (see the idl block earlier in that section for more details for the api i'm looking at so far)
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  316. # [03:36] <Hixie> (this is just for drawing text straight to the canvas using 'fill' so far
  317. # [03:37] <Hixie> but i might either add to or replace this with an api that does path stuff)
  318. # [03:38] <othermaciej> I hope drawing text on a path has SVG-compatible text layout semantics
  319. # [03:39] <Hixie> believe me, i have every intention to take every possible shortcut in defining this
  320. # [03:39] <othermaciej> it sounds like the Mozilla API does not
  321. # [03:39] <Hixie> which means relying heavily on css and svg
  322. # [03:41] <Philip`> Hixie: drawHText should be called drawText, because many people will only ever do horizontal text and won't even think about the existence of vertical text, so they won't understand what the H is for. The H just makes things confusing for those people, and harder to type even for people who understand the reasoning, and it doesn't benefit anyone to keep the H in there
  323. # [03:41] <Hixie> i guess that makes sense, since the opposite doesn't apply to users of drawVText()
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  325. # [03:42] <Hixie> othermaciej: dude, you're replying to yourself now on that bikeshed? :-)
  326. # [03:42] <Philip`> People who write vertical text seem to be equally familiar with horizontal text, so presumably they can cope fine with the differences between them
  327. # [03:42] <othermaciej> Hixie: I had another random idea
  328. # [03:42] <Hixie> othermaciej: (btw, rel values are "or"ed, not "and"ed)
  329. # [03:43] <Hixie> othermaciej: (so rel="icon 20x20" means it's two links, one for an icon, and one for a 20x20)
  330. # [03:43] <Philip`> Also the canvas API, and the whole of HTML5, and the whole web standards community, are strongly biased towards English (because e.g. all the method names and specs are written in English), so it's too late to be politically correct by balanacing drawVText and drawHText :-)
  331. # [03:43] <othermaciej> Hixie: "alternate stylesheet" is a counterexample to that (though perhaps a special exception)
  332. # [03:43] <Philip`> s/a//
  333. # [03:43] <othermaciej> Hixie: I like my sizes idea best, just wanted to jot that one down
  334. # [03:43] <Philip`> Oh, also it should be drawVerticalText instead of drawVText, so that people can work out what it means from the name
  335. # [03:43] <Hixie> Philip`: i don't buy that, i have no intention of biasing new apis against the majority of web users just because the standard is written in english
  336. # [03:44] <othermaciej> Hixie: it would be handy for Safari/WebKit purposes to have a ruling on this btw to spare us having to make something up
  337. # [03:44] <Hixie> othermaciej: for the icon thing? i didn't realise it was important for you too
  338. # [03:45] <othermaciej> Hixie: that is why I am telling you now :-)
  339. # [03:45] <Hixie> othermaciej: if i can ask, is this for iphone use, or for something else?
  340. # [03:46] <Hixie> othermaciej: (just trying to get an idea of what the use cases are)
  341. # [03:46] <othermaciej> Hixie: well, iPhone already has an iPhone-specific proprietary rel value to specify an iPhone-sized icon for use on the home screen
  342. # [03:46] <Philip`> Hixie: In terms of method naming, "drawVText" is already totally biased towards English, because it's using English words and abbreviations, which is unavoidable
  343. # [03:46] <othermaciej> it would be preferable for it to adopt a common thing
  344. # [03:46] <Hixie> othermaciej: k
  345. # [03:47] <othermaciej> I would also like apps like Fluid and Prism to be able to use proper OSX-compliant icons, thus the multisize thing
  346. # [03:47] <othermaciej> as for Apple's future plans, I am not at liberty to be specific
  347. # [03:47] <Hixie> sure
  348. # [03:47] <Hixie> Philip`: sure, but i try to keep that to a minimum
  349. # [03:47] <Hixie> Philip`: anyway, in this case it doesn't matter
  350. # [03:48] <othermaciej> tagging scalable/anysize icons is more for completeness but they could be a good alternative to multisize in many cases
  351. # [03:48] <Hixie> Philip`: as vertical text isn't as common as horizontal anyway
  352. # [03:48] <othermaciej> (if you provide vector art, the UA could always render it down to a multisize bitmap if that is what the OS wants)
  353. # [03:48] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah
  354. # [03:48] <Hixie> right, dinner time
  355. # [03:48] <Hixie> bbl
  356. # [03:49] <Philip`> Hixie: I think maxWidth should be optional - it's only useful if it's used correctly, and it's actively harmful if it's used incorrectly (because authors will get confused about why some of their text keeps getting squashed), and it's not trivial to use it correctly, so people should not be forced to supply a value for it
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  368. # [04:44] <Philip`> Hmm, getting into the IE8 Technical Beta program (which offers the privilege of being able to report bugs) is surprisingly easy
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  431. # [10:53] <Hixie> hsivonen: i say "speak perl" etc, too
  432. # [10:55] <hsivonen> ok.
  433. # [10:58] <Philip`> It's slightly painful when you have to speak Perl over the phone to a non-programmer for them to type it in
  434. # [10:58] <Hixie> i actually had to do that the other day
  435. # [10:58] <Hixie> though it was over video iChat
  436. # [10:58] <Hixie> so instead i just asked to use screen sharing and did it manually
  437. # [10:59] <Hixie> i wish there was an option in iChat "ask to open ssh connection"
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  439. # [11:00] <hsivonen> I need to learn some way to shield my mood from the negativity of bikeshedding
  440. # [11:02] * hsivonen does some therapeutic tokenizer hacking
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  443. # [11:08] <Hixie> i recommend blowing shit up in gta4
  444. # [11:08] * Hixie fires up his console
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  448. # [11:26] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/05/canvas-text-and-cjk.html
  449. # [11:31] <krijn> alt="Japanese Typography"
  450. # [11:31] <krijn> Yay \o/
  451. # [11:39] <Hixie> hm
  452. # [11:39] <Hixie> i had good hopes for the doc he links to
  453. # [11:39] <Hixie> but it turns out to not say anything especially useful
  454. # [11:39] <Hixie> it's mostly abotu layout
  455. # [11:39] <Hixie> which doesn't affect us
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  459. # [11:55] <Lachy> It's interesting though. I didn't realise they mixed verically stacked letters and rotated letters like that, each for different purposes.
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  461. # [11:58] <Hixie> sure
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  463. # [11:58] <Hixie> that's what "full width" characters are for, basically, as i understand it
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  469. # [12:22] <takkaria> http://www.marcozehe.de/2008/05/01/social-bookmarking-feature-added-to-blog/ terrifies me. people with screenreaders have 45 images to skip over with near-identical alt text
  470. # [12:24] <Philip`> Don't screenreaders have a "skip to next paragraph" key, that would let you avoid all those images easily?
  471. # [12:24] <Lachy> oh, wow. I had hoped the silly craze of putting subscription links like that would be over by now.
  472. # [12:25] <takkaria> Philip`: we can hope
  473. # [12:26] <hsivonen> that's sad
  474. # [12:26] <hsivonen> all those icons are useless
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  476. # [12:26] <hsivonen> I have a bookmarklet for the social bookmarking service I actually use
  477. # [12:26] <Philip`> When I last used Links (a few days ago), I was looking at a page that happened to have a "skip to content" link at the top before all the navigation menu stuff, but the browser just complained "cannot find #content" when I tried using the link :-(
  478. # [12:27] <takkaria> as far as I can tell, it's mainly done by people who aren't very popular but who really want to be and think that by including those links they'll becoming more so
  479. # [12:27] <krijn> Philip`: could've been a site I've built :$
  480. # [12:28] <krijn> That happens a lot, when making templates for some backend company who just doesn't care
  481. # [12:30] <roc> takkaria: Marco is blind, for what it's worth
  482. # [12:30] <roc> so if it sucks for screenreaders, he'd probably know
  483. # [12:31] <hsivonen> at least it sucks visually
  484. # [12:31] <roc> it's his revenge!
  485. # [12:32] <krijn> Gheh
  486. # [12:32] <othermaciej> roc: is that really a safe assumption? many sighted people design UIs that are unbelievably bad for sighted users
  487. # [12:33] <takkaria> roc: oh, ok. interesting
  488. # [12:33] <mpt> It's begging for a parody
  489. # [12:34] <roc> othermaciej: true. But still, he cares about this stuff more than most of us
  490. # [12:35] <takkaria> mpt: I actually thought it /was/ a parody when I first saw it...
  491. # [12:35] <mpt> http://web.archive.org/web/19970205051143/www.stale.com/cmp/options.html#printable
  492. # [12:36] <roc> that was such a great site.
  493. # [12:38] <mpt> What was that Weblog that Mark Pilgrim did anonymously? Something about platypuses That had huge amounts of administrivia, too
  494. # [12:38] * mpt stares at his "." key
  495. # [12:40] <hsivonen> www.ragingplatypus.com ?
  496. # [12:40] <mpt> oh, that was syndication buttons
  497. # [12:40] <mpt> http://web.archive.org/web/20030313032419/http://www.ragingplatypus.com/#metaplat
  498. # [12:40] <Hixie> gta4 has internet cafes where you can "browse the web"
  499. # [12:40] <Hixie> is it bad that my first thought was to try to go to see how it does on the acid3 test
  500. # [12:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: how did it do?
  501. # [12:41] <Hixie> "page not found"
  502. # [12:43] <Hixie> wow
  503. # [12:43] <Hixie> this web is like a total parody of the real one
  504. # [12:45] <roc> I assume if you get frustrated with your Web browsing experience you can blast the computer to smithereens
  505. # [12:45] <Hixie> and then firebomb the internet cafe, seems likely
  506. # [12:46] <othermaciej> are you browsing on the iFruit?
  507. # [12:46] <Lachy> wikipedia says "There are over 100 accessible, fictitious websites within the game"
  508. # [12:46] <Lachy> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Theft_Auto_IV
  509. # [12:46] <roc> crazy
  510. # [12:47] <Hixie> wow, there are possibly more porn sites on the gta4 web than the real one
  511. # [12:47] <Lachy> LOL
  512. # [12:47] <othermaciej> no way
  513. # [12:48] <Lachy> Hixie, I think you may be seriouly underestimating the amount of porn on the real web. :-)
  514. # [12:48] <roc> they should just stick a real browser in there with real internet access
  515. # [12:49] <roc> also, they should support video chat with the outside world
  516. # [12:49] <Hixie> Lachy: well, i mean, relative to the total size, not in absolute numbers, obviously :-)
  517. # [12:49] <roc> so you can call your friends from in-game and they'll see your avatar
  518. # [12:49] <roc> then they'll watch you get blown up because you're not paying attention
  519. # [12:50] <Hixie> this fake web is remarkably true to the real one
  520. # [12:50] <Lachy> any well known sites included within it?
  521. # [12:51] <Hixie> there's a page antfarmcam.net that claims to have a webcam of an antfarm, except the camera is down
  522. # [12:51] <Hixie> and there are three comments on this blog
  523. # [12:51] <Hixie> first is "WTF! This lame cam has been down for months! [...]"
  524. # [12:51] <Hixie> second is full of swear words
  525. # [12:52] <Hixie> and the last is from "5 months ago" and says "I hop ur antz is ded/ LOL Ants stink"
  526. # [12:52] <Lachy> what, no "first post" troll?
  527. # [12:56] <Hixie> ok let's see if i really can blow up these computers
  528. # [12:56] <Hixie> HAHAHAHA
  529. # [12:56] <Hixie> oh yeah
  530. # [12:56] <Hixie> hm i scared the other customer
  531. # [12:57] * hsivonen awaits out-of-context IRC log quotes to show up on mailing lists
  532. # [12:58] <deltab> http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2008/05/01/grand-theft-auto-iv-story-time-with-ben-and-frank
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  535. # [13:25] <Philip`> Seems like GTA4's developers have registered all their virtual-internet domain names on the real internet, but they haven't even got DNS records, which seems like an odd waste of a marketing opportunity
  536. # [13:26] <Hixie> some do
  537. # [13:26] <Hixie> the jazz station in gta4 is better than most real jazz stations i've listened to
  538. # [13:30] * Philip` has always wondered how much it cost to license all the music that's used in the games
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  540. # [13:35] <hsivonen> what are XHTML compact forms? http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/xhtml/20080430#l-108
  541. # [13:37] <Philip`> hsivonen: Probably http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2008/ED-xhtmlmime-20080423/#C_10
  542. # [13:38] <Philip`> s/Probably/Maybe/
  543. # [13:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
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  556. # [15:27] <hsivonen> How is "foo<!--->bar" supposed to parse in [R]CDATA?
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  558. # [15:32] <hsivonen> hmm. I suppose the second hyphen turns escape on and > turns it off
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  564. # [16:10] <hsivonen> the html5lib test cases rock
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  569. # [16:25] * Philip` wonders if "hash backet" is a common term, or if it's just a spelling mistake in this hash table implementation that nobody has bothered to fix
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  571. # [16:26] <hsivonen> oh yeah, still only 7925 bytecodes
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  573. # [16:28] <Philip`> Can you get bytecode optimisers to make it smaller?
  574. # [16:28] <hsivonen> Philip`: I don't have one
  575. # [16:28] <hsivonen> Philip`: If I need to make it smaller, I'll move string concatenation for error messages into another method
  576. # [16:29] <Philip`> Invalid HTML is the most common case, so you should be optimising the generation of error messages :-)
  577. # [16:29] <hsivonen> heh
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  579. # [16:48] <hsivonen> getting rid of the content model flag and the escape flag wasn't as big a win as I expected, but now HEAD beats the latest release even on PPC Client VM
  580. # [16:49] <Philip`> How fast does it parse now, in megabits per second?
  581. # [16:50] <hsivonen> http://about.validator.nu/htmlparser/perf3.zip
  582. # [16:50] <hsivonen> Philip`: I haven't measured it that way
  583. # [16:56] <Philip`> Hmm, it can parse a 53KB file about 30K times in one minute, so it's around 200Mbit/s
  584. # [16:56] <Philip`> which is faster than the network interface on that machine
  585. # [16:56] <Philip`> so it seems unlikely to be the bottleneck in the kinds of thing I'd use it for
  586. # [16:57] <Lachy> http://www.bestkungfu.com/archive/date/2008/05/alt-and-the-flickr-defense/
  587. # [16:57] <Lachy> ... seems to be more of the same.
  588. # [17:00] <Philip`> (XML=55301, methods=26961, switch=27660, Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 1.6.0-b105, mixed mode))
  589. # [17:00] <Philip`> (running for 1 minute)
  590. # [17:01] <Philip`> (since I'm too lazy to leave it for longer)
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  596. # [17:33] <Lachy> Interesting statistics http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200804/validation_statistics_from_nikita_the_spider/
  597. # [17:33] <Lachy> I would have though unescapted & would rate higher than missing alt though, but it seems not
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  599. # [17:35] <Lachy> though it seems the results are limited to pages where authors explicitly validated their page, rather than a general web crawl. So it's possible the results could be a bit biased in some ways.
  600. # [17:37] <Philip`> That's total number of occurrences, not number of pages, which is slightly dodgy since a few pages with thousands of images could distort the results
  601. # [17:38] <Philip`> They got 55K altless images out of 10K pages, i.e. 5.5 per page; I got 69K out of 8K pages, i.e. 9 per page
  602. # [17:39] <Philip`> Out of all pages with <img>, I saw 20% of those pages never using alt
  603. # [17:40] <Philip`> Out of all pages in total, I saw 30% with unencoded ampersands
  604. # [17:40] <Philip`> (but I don't know how many unencoded ampersands per page)
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  650. # [21:46] <mcarter> hello
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  676. # [23:01] <Philip`> Does anyone happen to know if CSS3 Color drafts have changed since the 2003 CR in a way that would affect (to pick a totally arbitrary example) canvas fill/stroke colours?
  677. # [23:01] <Philip`> (All I've noticed so far is the dropping of flavor)
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  680. # [23:18] <Hixie> dbaron: 23:12 < Philip`> Does anyone happen to know if CSS3 Color drafts have changed since the 2003 CR in a way that would affect (to pick a totally arbitrary example) canvas fill/stroke colours?
  681. # [23:19] <dbaron> All the changes are described in http://csswg.inkedblade.net/spec/css3-color
  682. # [23:19] <Hixie> Philip`: ^
  683. # [23:19] <Hixie> dbaron: thanks
  684. # [23:19] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/images/baselines.png is the image i was talking about btw
  685. # [23:19] <dbaron> I think some of those technically do affect things
  686. # [23:19] <Hixie> in case you spotted any problems
  687. # [23:20] <dbaron> e.g., handling of out-of-range values for hsl(), hsla(), and rgba() was undefined.
  688. # [23:20] <Hixie> was undefined and is now defined, or was un-defined?
  689. # [23:20] <Hixie> i assume the former! :-)
  690. # [23:20] <dbaron> the former
  691. # [23:20] <dbaron> mostly
  692. # [23:20] <Hixie> heh
  693. # [23:20] <dbaron> it's now mostly but not completely defined
  694. # [23:21] <Philip`> dbaron: Aha, thanks
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  697. # [23:25] <Philip`> Hixie: Would there be any point in producing an SVG version of that image? It would seem nicer than the current PNG with 5-pixel tall characters since you could zoom in to read it, but it'd probably be a waste of time if the spec just wants to stick with PNG for browser compatibility
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  701. # [23:35] <Hixie> Philip`: i'm certainly happy for you to create an svg image and would be happy to link the png to the svg image
  702. # [23:36] <Hixie> Philip`: but i expect i'll stick to png as the main one
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The end :)