/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-05-15 / end

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1. # Session Start: Thu May 15 00:00:00 2008
2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
3. # [00:00] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Oh, yes
4. # [00:00] * Philip` wonders what the ratio of normative to non-normative text is
5. # [00:00] <zcorpan_> Philip`: in terms of file size, it could also use less whitespace and less markup and less comments
6. # [00:00] <gsnedders> Philip`: No, you get the problem of the real spec gen when you try and parse it multiple times
7. # [00:00] <Philip`> (or, equivalently, the ratio of informative to uninformative text)
8. # [00:00] * Joins: Camaban (n=alee@85-211-73-27.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk)
9. # [00:01] <zcorpan_> Philip`: you could count paragraphs that contain normative keywords
10. # [00:02] <Hixie> Philip`: dropping features happens
11. # [00:07] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Hmm, only 36%
12. # [00:07] <Philip`> (counting <p> elements that match /\b(must|required|should|recommended|may|optional)\b/i)
13. # [00:07] <gsnedders> jgraham__: I'm getting a lot of errors with latest lxml and html5lib SVN
14. # [00:07] <zcorpan_> Philip`: i meant "paragraphs" as defined in html5! not <p> elements! ;)
15. # [00:08] <Hixie> you'd have to count sentences, not paragraphs
16. # [00:08] <Hixie> and unfortunately some sentences make entire sections normative
17. # [00:08] <Hixie> e.g. the algorithms introduced by "must do this"
18. # [00:08] <Hixie> or the entities table
19. # [00:08] <gsnedders> jgraham__: Actually, if I svn up, then it works. Remembering to do that helps :P
20. # [00:09] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Get a browser to implement document.getParagraphs() and then I'll count that
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22. # [00:09] <zcorpan_> Philip`: if you file a bug on that i can buy a beer to the relevant developer to get it implemented in opera
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24. # [00:11] <gsnedders> 16.032 seconds on my 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo laptop to parse html5 (the source version, not the postprocessed version) into a lxml structure
25. # [00:11] <gsnedders> my only issue is the lack of support of XPath 2 :P
26. # [00:12] <Philip`> gsnedders: If you save it as XML, how long does it take to parse it back again?
27. # [00:12] <gsnedders> Philip`: next to nothing
28. # [00:12] <Hixie> uh
29. # [00:12] <Hixie> that's a long time
30. # [00:12] <Hixie> that's probably about as long as the current processor
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34. # [00:13] <Philip`> Hixie: You should write the spec as XHTML
35. # [00:13] <jgraham__> gsnedders: For postprocessing, saving it to a python pickle is possibly even faster than saving to XML
36. # [00:13] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@17.203.15.172) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
37. # [00:13] <Hixie> Philip`: people should write better parsers :-P
38. # [00:13] <gsnedders> Philip`: The bottleneck is html5parser.py:141(normalizedTokens)
39. # [00:13] <jgraham__> gsnedders: ?! Really?
40. # [00:14] <jgraham__> Surely the bottleneck is in the input stream?
41. # [00:14] <gsnedders> jgraham__: I'm doing this locally, so no
42. # [00:14] <Philip`> Seems it'd be quickest to have an external HTML-to-XHTML tool written in a real language, and then Python code can quickly load it and do whatever fancy processing it wants
43. # [00:15] <jgraham__> gsnedders: Even for local disk access I expect getChar or charsUntill to take most of the time
44. # [00:15] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: I haven't yet developed an opinion about the script issue, although I don't like the suggestion as a knee-jerk reaction
45. # [00:15] <jgraham__> Because they are slooow and get called a lot of times
46. # [00:15] <gsnedders> jgraham__: charsUtil takes 6 secs
47. # [00:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: as for dispatch on qName, I'm very convinced based on information not in email that dispatch on qName is being put forth
48. # [00:16] <jgraham__> So that's 1/3 of the time. How much does notmalizeToken take?
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50. # [00:16] <jgraham__> normalize
51. # [00:16] <hsivonen> based on f2f info that is
52. # [00:17] * gsnedders reruns it, so he can just pastebin it
53. # [00:17] <gsnedders> jgraham__: http://pastebin.ca/1018429
54. # [00:17] <gsnedders> Now, back to working for my English exam in 12.75 hours
55. # [00:18] <gsnedders> s/12/9/
56. # [00:19] <jgraham__> gsnedders: You're reading the wrong column
57. # [00:19] * gsnedders looks again
58. # [00:19] <gsnedders> seemingly yes :)
59. # [00:19] <jgraham__> The first column is the interesting one
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61. # [00:20] <gsnedders> and charsUntil is the only significant one
62. # [00:20] <jgraham__> (the third column includes time in code called by that function, so for normalizedTokens that's the whole tokenizer
63. # [00:20] <gsnedders> jgraham__: yeah, I know
64. # [00:20] <gsnedders> jgraham__: I was looking quickly :)
65. # [00:20] <gsnedders> (too quickly)
66. # [00:20] <jgraham__> Did you get this from parse.py?
67. # [00:21] * jgraham__ wonders why the output isn't sorted
68. # [00:21] <Philip`> The first column seems misleading since you could make the bottleneck not be the bottleneck by splitting it into lots of small functions
69. # [00:21] <gsnedders> jgraham__: see the top line
70. # [00:21] <jgraham__> gsnedders: Ah, OK
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72. # [00:22] <jgraham__> Philip`: Still if a single function is taking 1/3 of the total runtime is is a bottleneck...
73. # [00:22] <gsnedders> Hixie: Can I just ignore your edge case until we have a html5 parser as a python extension? :P
74. # [00:25] * Hixie invites the tag to review html5 so that they don't come back in three years saying "you didn't invite us to review it! that's why we're sending you this feedback so late!"
75. # [00:25] <Hixie> gsnedders: depends if you want me to use your script or not :-P
76. # [00:25] * Quits: qwert666_ (n=qwert666@dax94.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) ("Leaving")
77. # [00:26] * gsnedders doesn't have strong feelings either way
78. # [00:26] * gsnedders just used you to get a subset of features that is actually used :P
79. # [00:33] <Lachy> jgraham__, yt?
80. # [00:33] <jgraham__> Lachy: Yep
81. # [00:33] <Lachy> re the title for our presentation
82. # [00:34] <Lachy> HTML5: From Use Cases to Solutions was ok, but I'd prefer to find something a little better
83. # [00:34] <jgraham__> Lachy: Yeah, I agree it's not great
84. # [00:36] <jgraham__> Do you have any ideas?
85. # [00:36] <Lachy> these are the areas the talk will cover, and we need a title that sort of reflects them:
86. # [00:36] <Lachy> 1. Introduction to HTML5 - discuss the aims and objectives (5 min)
87. # [00:36] <Lachy> 2. The design principles (10 min)
88. # [00:36] <Lachy> 3. Constructing web sites with HTML5 - use cases, markup and DOM APIs (20 min)
89. # [00:36] <Lachy> 4. Talk about the HTML WG, WHATWG and the community surrounding it (10 min)
90. # [00:39] <Lachy> Understanding HTML5: [insert subtitle]
91. # [00:40] <Hixie> i recommend "HTML5"
92. # [00:40] <Lachy> that's a bit boring
93. # [00:41] <Hixie> if the excitement of your talk is dependent on the excitement of your title, you've got bigger problems :-)
94. # [00:41] <jgraham__> Hixie: Whilst the title isn't really important for making the talk good, it might be important for making people turn up
95. # [00:42] <jgraham__> This conference seems to be for people who value aesthetics
96. # [00:42] <Hixie> "HTML5: Sex, Drugs, and Rock and Roll"?
97. # [00:43] * Quits: smedero (n=soypunk@mdp-nat251.mdp.com)
98. # [00:43] <Lachy> LOL
99. # [00:43] <jgraham__> Glad it's worked like that for you, Hixie
100. # [00:43] <jgraham__> :)
101. # [00:44] <jgraham__> Something about moving the web forward?
102. # [00:45] <gsnedders> "No sex, no drugs, no rock, no roll, when it comes to today"
103. # [00:46] <Hixie> "HTML5: Why everyone else is wrong and we're right"
104. # [00:46] <Hixie> you'd probably get people in for that one
105. # [00:46] <gsnedders> "HTML5: It's not XHTML2"
106. # [00:46] <Lachy> "HTML5: It's not that bad"
107. # [00:46] <Philip`> "HTML5: Free money if you come to our talk"
108. # [00:47] <jgraham__> How I learnt to stop worrying and love HTML5
109. # [00:47] <Lachy> The HTML5 Generation
110. # [00:47] <jgraham__> Or maybe just HTML5: How I learnt to stop worrying and love endless tedious arguments about alt
111. # [00:47] <gsnedders> "HTML5: Not quite yet 2π"
112. # [00:48] <Dashiva> jgraham__: ow
113. # [00:48] <Lachy> HTML5: More Bikesheds than Anyone Else
114. # [00:48] <Dashiva> How about just sticking to the classic? Understanding HTML5: 5 > 2
115. # [00:48] * andersca_ is now known as andersca
116. # [00:48] <Hixie> we by far don't have more bikesheds than anyone else
117. # [00:48] <Hixie> html5 has fewer bikesheds than most wgs i've been involved in
118. # [00:48] <Hixie> by some quite wide margin
119. # [00:48] <Lachy> yeah, I guess
120. # [00:49] <takkaria> HTML5: Architectually Inconsistent, as declared by the TAG
121. # [00:49] <Dashiva> What's your top three list, Hixie?
122. # [00:49] <jgraham__> No architecture astronauts please, we're HTML5
123. # [00:49] <Hixie> Dashiva: everyone else is tired for first spot. :-P
124. # [00:49] <zcorpan_> "HTML5: More Powerplants than Anyone Else"
125. # [00:49] <Philip`> How ironic that http://code.google.com/doctype/ has a broken doctype
126. # [00:49] <Lachy> "Painting HTML5: Design, Development and the Community"
127. # [00:49] <takkaria> 2005: An HTML5 Odyssey
128. # [00:50] <gsnedders> "HTML5: Hixie is God"
129. # [00:50] <Dashiva> HTML5: A whitespace odyssey?
130. # [00:50] <jgraham__> Lachy: That is almost good
131. # [00:50] <Lachy> takkaria, it's 2008 now :-)
132. # [00:50] <takkaria> I must have missed the year change again
133. # [00:50] <jgraham__> HTML5: Hixie's Text Markup Language
134. # [00:50] <Hixie> hah
135. # [00:50] <Dashiva> +1
136. # [00:51] <gsnedders> jgraham__: No, s/Text/Tough/
137. # [00:51] <jgraham__> Toy?
138. # [00:51] <Dashiva> Terrible?
139. # [00:51] <jgraham__> Terrible?
140. # [00:51] * gsnedders expects we can come up with loads
141. # [00:51] <Dashiva> Wait, there's that word
142. # [00:51] * gsnedders falls asleep
143. # [00:51] <Dashiva> Someone used it in a mail... transigent!
144. # [00:51] <takkaria> HTML5: With Added RFC2119 Goodness
145. # [00:52] <Philip`> Dashiva: Is that really a word?
146. # [00:52] <Lachy> HTML5: You MUST Come"
147. # [00:52] <Dashiva> Philip`: It's intransigent without in
148. # [00:52] <Hixie> bbl
149. # [00:52] <Lachy> are you sure you didn't mean transient?
150. # [00:52] <Philip`> The closest thing in my dictionary is transignification
151. # [00:52] <Dashiva> Lachy: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/intransigent
152. # [00:53] <Dashiva> I find the meaning fits really well too
153. # [00:54] <Lachy> oh good, cause one definition of transient is "Decaying with time"
154. # [00:54] <Dashiva> Hixie's Transsiberian Markup Language
155. # [00:55] <Lachy> HTML5: Building the Foundation of the Web
156. # [00:55] <Philip`> "Satanism manifests itself in different countries under various forms and names, such as Nihilism, Intransigentism, Petrolean Communism."
157. # [00:56] * Quits: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@nat/google/x-a8a41c29bad6a7dd) ("The computer fell asleep")
158. # [00:56] <Philip`> Uh, does anyone happen to know what 'Petrolean' is?
159. # [00:56] <jgraham__> Lachy: It would be good to get the idea across that we're not just going to blather on for an hour about the process but we're going to give people an idea of how they can use bits of HTML5 today
160. # [00:56] <Dashiva> Venezuela?
161. # [00:56] <Dashiva> HTML5: What will it do for you lately?
162. # [00:57] <j4_james> suck
163. # [00:57] <Lachy> Dashiva, ask not what HTML5 can do for you, ask what you can do for HTML5!
164. # [00:58] <Dashiva> Lachy: Sure, but that's after you get them into the room
165. # [00:58] <jgraham__> HTML The Second Coming
166. # [00:59] * jgraham__ wonders what fraction of the audience you could offend with that
167. # [01:00] <Dashiva> You could always smooth it over with Second Parsing or something like that
168. # [01:00] <Lachy> nothing wrong with offending people. It helps get people talking.
169. # [01:00] <Philip`> The "browser compatibility" tables in e.g. http://code.google.com/docreader/#p(doctype)s(doctype)t(DialogElement) seem totally bogus
170. # [01:00] <Dashiva> Again, after you get them into the room :)
171. # [01:02] <jgraham__> So are we any closer to a serious idea?
172. # [01:03] <Dashiva> "HTML5: Who, what and why"
173. # [01:04] <Lachy> I liked "HTML5: Building the Foundation of the Web" (maybe s/Building/Developing/)
174. # [01:04] <Dashiva> That sounds really like "replacing what we already had with something new and better" rather than "formalizing what we have and making it better" to me
175. # [01:05] <Lachy> How about just "HTML5 Development"
176. # [01:05] <takkaria> how about HTML5? :)
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178. # [01:06] <jgraham__> Lachy: My main problem with "Building the foundation of the web" is that it doesn't communicate the practical aspect of how to use it
179. # [01:06] <jgraham__> HTML 5: A kickstart guide
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181. # [01:07] <jgraham__> Getting your hands dirty with HTML5
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183. # [01:07] <Lachy> yeah, that one is ok
184. # [01:08] <jgraham__> Great. Now all we need is a short summary of the talk
185. # [01:08] <Lachy> or how about we use this channel's topic: HTML5: Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!
186. # [01:09] <jgraham__> I would love to go with that but I don't know what effect it would have
187. # [01:09] <Lachy> hmm, true. getting your hands dirty is fine
188. # [01:10] <jgraham__> Given there has been quite a lot of negative blogging about HTML5 it might be best not to play up to that image (unless we could make it work for us, but given the short timescales and the logistical difficulties, it seems risky)
189. # [01:10] <Lachy> ok, for the summary, we can just write 1 or 2 paragraphs that expand on that list of topics
190. # [01:11] <jgraham__> Shall we both have a go and then edit them together somehow
191. # [01:11] <jgraham__> Or google docs?
192. # [01:11] <Lachy> sure, how does google docs help us work together?
193. # [01:12] <jgraham__> (or write first then set up a collaborative document to edit)
194. # [01:13] <Lachy> yeah, that would be better
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215. # [02:51] * Hixie finally dives into the day's alt nonsense
216. # [02:52] <othermaciej> oy vay
217. # [02:52] <Dashiva> If you don't say something in 30 minutes, we'll send in a search time
218. # [02:52] <Dashiva> *team
219. # [02:53] <othermaciej> one day of that thread burned me out
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221. # [02:53] <roc> I haven't read a single message of it, but I can feel the pain from here
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223. # [02:57] <Dashiva> It's surreal at times. "We must make @alt mandatory to encourage good behavior via people desiring conformance" and then "Pages that aren't hand-written and don't get author input must resign themselves to being non-conforming"
224. # [02:57] <Lachy> that alt thread is ridiculous. There were around 40-50 posts on it just today, and I just can't keep up with it
225. # [02:57] <Hixie> the entire concept of requiring pages to be non-conforming
226. # [02:57] <Hixie> is utterly non-sensical
227. # [02:58] <Hixie> it's like having a minimum speed limit sign with a value higher than the speed limit sign next to it
228. # [02:59] <Dashiva> The other thing that bugs me is that there seems to be an implicit assumption that AT aren't allowed to use the same techniques on non-conforming pages and conforming pages
229. # [02:59] <Hixie> or a four way intersection with every exit marked with the "no entry" sign
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231. # [03:01] <Dashiva> (But if you hate people driving cars, that's not so unlikely ;)
232. # [03:03] <Philip`> Hixie: It's sensical in some cases - e.g. if I want to make a page with tables for layout, then it's required to be non-conforming - so how is the distinction drawn between things that can be done in a conforming way and things that can't?
233. # [03:04] <Hixie> you're not allowed to make a page with tables for layout
234. # [03:04] <Hixie> and you should never do so
235. # [03:05] <Hixie> that differs from this case, where there are people suggesting that in some cases, omitting alt (or giving bad alternate text) is what should happen
236. # [03:05] <Hixie> despite making it non-conforming
237. # [03:06] <Philip`> Ah, so it would be consistent if they said that when you want to make a page with omitted alt you should actually not make that page at all
238. # [03:06] <Hixie> such an argument would not be persuasive
239. # [03:07] <Hixie> but it would at least be consistent
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243. # [03:09] * Philip` thinks "conforming" vs "non-conforming" is not a particularly useful way to look at pages - it's much more useful to look at a list of ways you can improve the quality of your page, and you should be disappointed when there are no suggestions left (because you've reached the limits of the conformance criteria)
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247. # [03:13] <Hixie> Philip`: yeah, maybe.
248. # [03:13] <Hixie> Philip`: not sure how to formalise that though
249. # [03:17] <Philip`> Require that conformance checkers have a friendly popup character saying "Hey! You might want to write &amp; instead of & here, to make sure it will never confuse a browser. Click here for a detailed explanation!" instead of a red box saying "Error: Text after & did not match an entity name."
250. # [03:17] <Philip`> That would help people think of it as advice rather than admonishment
251. # [03:19] <Hixie> ye-es
252. # [03:19] <Dashiva> Wouldn't that just raise even more resistance, for "watering out" the concept of conformance?
253. # [03:19] <Philip`> Hixie: You don't sound convinced :-(
254. # [03:25] <roc> why don't you just have the checker transform the document to make it transforming
255. # [03:25] <roc> to make it conforming, I mean
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258. # [03:35] <mpt> because that wouldn't improve the Web
259. # [03:35] <mpt> because if a checker can do it, a browser can do it too
260. # [03:37] <roc> the author can check the transformed document to make sure it still matches the author's intent
261. # [03:37] <roc> browsers can't do that
262. # [03:38] <mpt> aha
263. # [03:39] <mpt> That's something that could be tested -- what percentage of authors would bother to check the autocorrected output
264. # [03:40] <roc> I'm assuming they'd at least view the page
265. # [03:40] <Lachy> roc, there are utilities that do such things. e.g. HTML Tidy
266. # [03:41] <Philip`> If it presented the autocorrected document as a big lump of code, they'd be unlikely to check it all; I imagine it wouldn't be nearly so bad if it printed a suggested correction (or several) beside each error message, so authors could use that as a guide for fixing their code semi-manually
267. # [03:43] <mpt> And for the particular issue of alt text, showing them the page won't help (unless you show it lynx-style)
268. # [03:44] <mpt> (btw, alt="[A picture of a cat looking at pictures of cats]"? oh dea)
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271. # [03:44] <mpt> r
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273. # [03:46] * Philip` guesses that IE8 stopping using alt for tooltips will do a lot to decrease the usage of alt
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275. # [03:48] <mpt> iirc Microsoft's reasoning for doing alt= as tooltip in the first place was to increase use of alt=
276. # [03:48] <mpt> (in IE3, I think it was)
277. # [03:49] <mpt> at which it undoubtedly succeeded, but with the wrong sort of contents
278. # [03:49] <Dashiva> Oh, what wicked webs we weave
279. # [03:49] <mpt> and it's been a long, slow walk back
280. # [03:50] <Dashiva> Maybe some more focus should be put on @importantimage (or @realalt)
281. # [03:50] <Philip`> It does make sense to make metadata visible, so that people actually notice it and use it
282. # [03:50] <mpt> title= is metadata. alt= is data. ;-)
283. # [03:51] <Philip`> I'd say the data is the image :-)
284. # [03:51] <mpt> That's alternative data
285. # [03:51] <Dashiva> Is invisible data worse or less bad than invisible metadata?
286. # [03:51] <Philip`> The alt text is describing the image data, hence it's metadata
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288. # [03:51] <Philip`> (for a loose sense of 'describing')
289. # [03:52] <mpt> Minus 5 points for using "describing" and "alt text" in the same sentence
290. # [03:52] <Philip`> Dashiva: Invisible data is usually SEO spam, so it's bad
291. # [03:54] <Dashiva> wget needs an AI mode to detect which URLs with get parameters are duplicates, and which are successive pages of multipage content
292. # [03:56] <Dashiva> (I just now stopped a gallery download at 600 MB, and discovered only 20 MB of it was images)
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296. # [04:05] * mpt imagines a world full of blind people, and search engines that only understand images, not text
297. # [04:06] * Philip` can't imagine who is publishing those images in such a world
298. # [04:06] <Dashiva> mpt: Couldn't you just take a screenshot of the text you wanted and search for that? :)
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301. # [04:11] <mpt> Dashiva, right, and then Google gets confused by all the SEO spam images that contain that word, while human visitors see only the text
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303. # [04:12] <mpt> (or hear, rather)
304. # [04:15] <Philip`> Hmph, the page I found a while ago with a 10KB alt attribute on an image has been changed and no longer has that image :-(
305. # [04:25] <mpt> A picture is worth a thousand decabytes?
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311. # [04:42] <Lachy> I have to find a way to work some of these into the presentaion :-) http://icanhascheezburger.com/tag/html/
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364. # [09:47] <Hixie> wow, the e-mail i just sent was a reply to 41 e-mails of spiralling confusion
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366. # [09:56] <hsivonen> Hixie: IIRC Maciej said Safari uses QuickTime on Windows
367. # [09:56] <Hixie> the details don't matter in this particular instance
368. # [09:58] <mcarter> I wonder how many people in here reside somewhere near silicon valley? I don't suppose you guys ever get together for an html5 lunch?
369. # [09:59] <Hixie> i'm in mountain view and would be up for #whatwg social outings, so long as i don't have to organise them :-)
370. # [09:59] <Hixie> it hasn't happened so far though
371. # [09:59] <Hixie> a number of us are in the area
372. # [09:59] <mcarter> hmm, I'm in mountain view more than half the time
373. # [10:00] <mcarter> I'll see about putting together a wiki somewhere for a social meeting
374. # [10:00] <mcarter> i finally conquered IE tonight.. that is, just got sse working in IE with only a small caveat or two for a server-side implementer
375. # [10:01] <Hixie> nice
376. # [10:02] <mcarter> there's apparently no way to keep IE from downloading things that don't have content-type "text/html" or "text/plain", as far as I can tell
377. # [10:02] <Hixie> as in it pops up a dialog box?
378. # [10:02] <Hixie> when doing what?
379. # [10:02] <Hixie> surely image/jpeg doesn't get downloaded
380. # [10:02] <mcarter> well, i meant as an iframe src
381. # [10:03] <Hixie> yeah i always hate it when browsers cause you to download stuff when an _iframe_ has content that isn't supported
382. # [10:03] <Hixie> that's just dumb
383. # [10:03] <Hixie> though i may have made html5 require that behaviour. oops. i'll have to check that out.
384. # [10:03] <mcarter> i never noticed it until i tried to implement this sse stuff for IE
385. # [10:04] <mcarter> I can't think of any other way to do it then to locally poll a plain text iframe, and parse the contents
386. # [10:06] <mcarter> you can expect that feedback for TCPConnection on friday... particularly now that I've got a working demo
387. # [10:06] <mcarter> and with that, i'm off to bed (do you ever sleep?)
388. # [10:08] <Hixie> cool, nn
389. # [10:08] <Hixie> i sleep around 4am - 1pm
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391. # [10:21] <Philip`> Hixie: "the ratio of the correct rendered width of each pixel to the actual width of each pixel in the image (i.e., the multiple by which the video's intrinsic width must be multiplied to obtain the rendered width that gives the correct aspect ratio)" - that seems like an abuse of the word "must"
392. # [10:22] <Hixie> oops
393. # [10:22] <Hixie> will fix
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395. # [10:33] <Lachy> Hixie, which video formats require pixelratio="" in the markup?
396. # [10:34] <Hixie> h.263, at least
397. # [10:34] <Lachy> ok.
398. # [10:34] <Hixie> youtube also suggested it so that misencoded videos (very common apparently) can be fixed up without reencoding them (since that's really expensive)
399. # [10:34] <Lachy> I thought all that info would have been specified in the container format, if not in the codec itself.
400. # [10:34] <Hixie> yeah, me too
401. # [10:35] <Hixie> i pushed back on it quite a bit but apparently anamorphic videos are quite common and common formats don't handle them
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404. # [10:35] <Lachy> wow. I thought only DVDs used anamorphic content, since they needed to scale to fit 4:3 and 16:9 TVs.
405. # [10:35] <Hixie> Philip`: fixed
406. # [10:36] <Hixie> intentionally anamorphic video is common in professional workflows
407. # [10:36] <Lachy> ok
408. # [10:36] <Hixie> when i was an amateur projectionist at university we had to deal with anamorphic lenses all the time for both 16mm and 35mm movies
409. # [10:36] <Hixie> but pixelratio is more intended for misencoded videos
410. # [10:37] <Hixie> they also asked for things like fixing up brightness and contrast, but i figured css filters were a better solution to that
411. # [10:37] <Hixie> the last thing they really asked for which i thought made sense was a way to detect if the UA was throttling the download speed
412. # [10:38] <Lachy> I thought youtube reencoded all videos anyway, since it has to convert them all to the right format for flash
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414. # [10:38] <othermaciej> how are you supposed to detect that? (the UA just admitting it?)
415. # [10:38] <Hixie> right
416. # [10:38] <othermaciej> why do they want to know that?
417. # [10:38] <Hixie> video.throttling or video.isDownloadThrottled were the two proposals i had for attribute names
418. # [10:39] <othermaciej> is it more useful info than whether a firewall or a traffic shaping kernel module are throttling the download speed?
419. # [10:39] <Hixie> othermaciej: the spec allows UAs to artificially throttle downloads to prevent videos from being downloaded until the user wants them
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422. # [10:40] <othermaciej> Hixie: I guess I am asking what the use case for this information is
423. # [10:40] <Hixie> othermaciej: but the argument is that video players (such as youtube's) aren't going to want to be sitting there saying "bandwidth too low! stalled!" when in fact it's just the UA that's blocking the download
424. # [10:40] <Hixie> since they'd look silly :-)
425. # [10:40] <Hixie> better to be able to say "download paused" in some way
426. # [10:41] <othermaciej> in WebKit what we would likely do is load right away but not play the video until the user switches to that tab (if autoplay is set and it is in a background tab)
427. # [10:42] <Hixie> (actually the throttling feedback was from the google video team's experience, not youtube. but there's little practical difference these days.)
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430. # [10:43] <Hixie> othermaciej: right but some people want to be able to tell their UA to just not download the video at all yet, or to stop downloading it
431. # [10:43] <Hixie> the example given in this e-mail was a 3 hour clip on google video, where the user wants to stop the download after 5 minutes are downloaded
432. # [10:43] <Hixie> so he right clicks and chooses "pause download" or whatever the UA (probably opera) provides
433. # [10:44] <Hixie> now google video's player doesn't want to say "eep! your connection died!" it just wants to say "(download paused)"
434. # [10:44] <othermaciej> so is throttled just supposed to represent stopping/pausing the load, or does anyone actually want to keep loading but at reduced bandwidth?
435. # [10:45] <othermaciej> (not sure we care about a way to stop short of closing the page but that seems like at least conceivably a good idea)
436. # [10:46] <Hixie> well the spec already provides the bits-per-second-over-the-last-few-seconds information (bufferingRate) so you could distinguish the two cases (paused vs throttled) by seeing if that number was non-zero
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440. # [10:46] <Hixie> <Hixie> well the spec already provides the bits-per-second-over-the-last-few-seconds information (bufferingRate) so you could distinguish the two cases (paused vs throttled) by seeing if that number was non-zero
441. # [10:47] <Hixie> and i'd be shocked if opera didn't want to support precise control over the download rate
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443. # [10:47] <othermaciej> sorry about the flaky connection here
444. # [10:47] <othermaciej> really? does opera have download rate controls for other things?
445. # [10:47] <Hixie> opera has ui to do everything under the sun
446. # [10:47] * othermaciej tries not to actually use Opera's UI when testing in it
447. # [10:50] <Hixie> ok bufferingThrottled is probably the value that most closely fits in with the existing API
448. # [10:51] <Hixie> i wish other video sites had sent feedback
449. # [10:54] <Hixie> crap, that's all the video feedback i had
450. # [10:54] <Hixie> that means <iframe> is next
451. # [10:56] <Hixie> good
452. # [10:56] <Hixie> ak
453. # [10:57] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2008May/0163.html
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459. # [11:08] <Hixie> hsivonen: http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0262.html
460. # [11:08] <Hixie> http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0182.html specifically
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463. # [11:09] <Hixie> wow, guido was involved in the web early
464. # [11:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
465. # [11:10] <Hixie> tbl's original reply to <img>: http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0186.html
466. # [11:11] <othermaciej> shades of his turn to the dark side
467. # [11:11] <Hixie> that message contains the first example of alternate text, btw, as far as i can tell from his vague description of how it should work, except that it is terible alternate text if so...
468. # [11:13] <Hixie> i don't think he realised that's what it was for though, or at least he didn't mention it was for that
469. # [11:14] <Hixie> thank goodness we didn't go down THIS path http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0202.html
470. # [11:15] <othermaciej> img is so much better than either of those options
471. # [11:15] <Hixie> ok i can firmly say that there is absolutely nothing in that thread talking about alternatives to visual media
472. # [11:15] <othermaciej> (though with benefit of hindsight we might prefer if it had spelled out "image" and not been a void element)
473. # [11:16] <Hixie> ooo, while we're at it: DanC saying that "most of the technical issues in the HTML spec have been ironed out": http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0041.html
474. # [11:17] * Hixie notes that FIFTEEN YEARS LATER we're still fixing issues that were relevant and not resolved back then
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479. # [11:19] <Philip`> http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q3/0985.html
480. # [11:19] <Philip`> Oh, http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q3/0461.html seems earlier
481. # [11:21] * Philip` doesn't see any earlier references on that site
482. # [11:22] * Joins: zcorpan (n=zcorpan@pat.se.opera.com)
483. # [11:25] <Hixie> so it took 6 months for someone to suggest alt="", and even then it was for text browsers not blind users
484. # [11:25] <Hixie> heh
485. # [11:25] <Hixie> bolt-on indeed
486. # [11:25] <Philip`> http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q3/0995.html would have been a nicer way of doing it
487. # [11:26] <Hixie> yep
488. # [11:26] <Hixie> the funny thing about that (which is what <object> does, btw) is that there is no way to omit vs not omit the alt attriute
489. # [11:27] <Hixie> which means there's no way to distinguish inaccessible images from decorative images
490. # [11:28] <Lachy> Hixie, re this comment from a few days ago "<Hixie> i think for explaining <meter> better we should have some pictures of gagues", I have such images that I used in a previous presentation, if you want them.
491. # [11:28] <Hixie> sure!
492. # [11:28] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
493. # [11:29] <Lachy> they're in these powerpoint slides. http://lachy.id.au/dev/presentation/developing-with-html5/ - I can send you the originals when I get home later this evening
494. # [11:40] <tomg> ohh, http://code.google.com/doctype/ is nice
495. # [11:43] * Philip` didn't see much on it other than invalid HTML, failure to work in Opera, incorrect test results, and advocacy of yet another JavaScript library, but maybe he was looking too cynically :-)
496. # [11:44] <Hixie> ooo, ppt opens in keynote
497. # [11:44] <Hixie> Philip`: send comments to mark pilgrim :-)
498. # [11:45] <Philip`> Hixie: I don't have any comments much more constructive than "the site doesn't work, and when it does work it's wrong" :-p
499. # [11:45] <Hixie> :-)
500. # [11:45] <tomg> iWork is brilliant
501. # [11:45] <hsivonen> notes that Google is breaking the Web by moving addressing after the hash
502. # [11:46] <Hixie> Lachy: i only saw one <meter> in that ppt and it was a rating example, not a gauge :-)
503. # [11:47] <Hixie> hsivonen: yeah, i'm not a huge fan of that either
504. # [11:48] <Lachy> I have others that weren't used in the presentation. I may have a gauge at home.
505. # [11:48] <Lachy> if not, I'll make one.
506. # [11:48] <Hixie> cool :-)
507. # [11:49] <hsivonen> I wonder how Google search is going to index Google docreader using public HTTP spidering
508. # [11:50] <hsivonen> that is, if someone else writes a similar reader, what happens to Web search?
509. # [11:50] <Philip`> http://www.google.com/search?q=inurl%3Acode.google.com%2Fdocreader
510. # [11:50] <Philip`> I think the answer to how it'll index it is "not very well"
511. # [11:50] <Hixie> you don't have to use the ajax reader
512. # [11:50] <Hixie> there's a separate view of the wiki that isn't ajax
513. # [11:51] <hsivonen> Hixie: what if people out there link to the ajax reader?
514. # [11:51] <Hixie> then the links don't contribute pagerank
515. # [11:51] <Hixie> i didn't say it was a good idea :-)
516. # [11:51] <Hixie> i was just providing further information
517. # [11:51] <hsivonen> ok :-)
518. # [11:52] <Philip`> Is there a way to access the non-AJAX version without disabling JS or copying-and-pasting the non-JS URL?
519. # [11:53] <Hixie> i don't believe there are any links on http://code.google.com/doctype/ that don't rewrite themselves to point to the ajax reader, no
520. # [11:53] <Hixie> but i don't know
521. # [11:53] <Hixie> open in new tab seems to work
522. # [11:54] <tomg> sigh. could someone throw away the british rail network please.
523. # [11:54] * Philip` notes that Googlebot follows <a href="window.location='foo'"> links, and seemingly no other search engine does
524. # [11:55] <Philip`> Uh
525. # [11:55] <Philip`> <a href="javascript:...">
526. # [11:56] <Hixie> how cunning of us
527. # [11:56] <Philip`> as well as following any strings in <script>s that start with a '/' character, even if they're commented out
528. # [11:57] <Philip`> (where 'strings' means quote-delimeted strings)
529. # [11:57] <Philip`> s/incorrect spelling/correct spelling/
530. # [11:57] <Hixie> really?
531. # [11:57] <Hixie> that seems like a bug
532. # [11:57] <Hixie> do you have a test page showing this?
533. # [12:00] <virtuelv> Philip`: does that mean it's possible to DoS googlebot?
534. # [12:02] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
535. # [12:02] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
536. # [12:02] <Philip`> Hixie: http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/bottest.html and http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/bottest2.html and http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/bottest3.html
537. # [12:03] <hsivonen> I noticed that XTech caused me to forget to rerun the monthly V.nu stats for April
538. # [12:03] <Philip`> and my logs show requests from Googlebot for http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/bottest-requests.txt
539. # [12:05] <Hixie> Philip`: that's really odd
540. # [12:05] <Hixie> Philip`: i've seen the code that picks urls and i don't understand how you re getting those results
541. # [12:06] <Philip`> Oh, there's also NextGenSearchBot following all the links except for /1 on bottest3.html
542. # [12:06] <Philip`> but that's the only one
543. # [12:07] <hsivonen> hmm. I think Gez's latest email can lead to constructive discussion
544. # [12:08] <hsivonen> but before I reply, I think I should write some code
545. # [12:08] <hsivonen> because otherwise the mailing list will starve my code writing tasks
546. # [12:08] <Philip`> Hixie: Well, don't ask me :-p
547. # [12:12] <hsivonen> it's a shame that Google doctype doesn't have Opera 9.5 in its test matrix
548. # [12:13] * hsivonen didn't know <plaintext> had @align
549. # [12:13] <tomg> yes
550. # [12:13] <Hixie> hsivonen: it's a wiki :-D
551. # [12:14] <Hixie> though, is 9.5 out yet?
552. # [12:14] <othermaciej> Google doctype says some things that seem wrong
553. # [12:14] <hsivonen> Hixie: FF3 isn't either
554. # [12:14] <tomg> or IE8 :)
555. # [12:15] <othermaciej> http://code.google.com/docreader/#p(doctype)s(doctype)t(DocumentParentWindowProperty)
556. # [12:15] <othermaciej> I don't think it is correct to claim that no browser implements it
557. # [12:15] <othermaciej> or rather, if that is true, why is it documented at all?
558. # [12:16] <othermaciej> but I am pretty sure IE does actually in fact support it
559. # [12:17] <tomg> as does Opera
560. # [12:17] <othermaciej> also it seems odd that the DOM reference includes vendor extensions but the CSS reference seemingly does not
561. # [12:17] <othermaciej> (except for broken vendor extensions that aren't prefixed)
562. # [12:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: fair enough
563. # [12:19] <Hixie> othermaciej: it's a wiki, feel free to edit it :-)
564. # [12:19] <othermaciej> so 'accelerator', 'behavior' and 'layer-background-image' are included but not -webkit-box-shadow
565. # [12:19] <tomg> can you add pages?
566. # [12:19] <Hixie> othermaciej: i assume CSS stuff will be added in due course
567. # [12:19] <Hixie> tomg: sure
568. # [12:19] <tomg> oh yes
569. # [12:19] <othermaciej> I certainly do not have the personal resources to do research on CSS properties
570. # [12:19] <Hixie> othermaciej: as far as i know there's no policy to exclude prefixed extensions
571. # [12:19] <tomg> that'll be the New Page link then ;)
572. # [12:19] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah join the club :-)
573. # [12:20] <tomg> it'll be good to document Opera and WebKit stuff
574. # [12:20] <tomg> they are both really lacking in documentation
575. # [12:20] <othermaciej> it would be handy if it were marked which are part of what standard (if any) in addition to listing browser support
576. # [12:21] <othermaciej> is there a bug tracker other than "it's a wiki, you can edit it"?
577. # [12:21] <tomg> heh
578. # [12:21] <tomg> yes it really needs a mass-import of DOM references and APIs
579. # [12:22] <Philip`> Is there any HTML element for which the browser compatibility table is correct?
580. # [12:22] <othermaciej> because I am willing to file bugs but not willing to do the research to personally fix them
581. # [12:22] <Philip`> tomg: Why import, rather than just linking to MDC?
582. # [12:22] * Philip` prefers not having too many sources for the same information
583. # [12:23] <tomg> er, because the MDC is for Gecko?
584. # [12:24] <othermaciej> funny that someone made automated test cases for all of these but did not make the compat tables match
585. # [12:24] <tomg> you'd have thought with making a cross-browser reference you'd want to at least start with a page about every CSS extension
586. # [12:25] <Philip`> tomg: The MDC is (mostly) for standards, and the DOM references and APIs should be for standards too
587. # [12:25] <othermaciej> tomg: wow, the html element tables are so wrong it is scary
588. # [12:25] <tomg> yes
589. # [12:26] <othermaciej> I love the one for the <video> element
590. # [12:26] <tomg> errrrrrrrr
591. # [12:26] <tomg> that needs some amending
592. # [12:27] * othermaciej wonders if "giant repository of incomplete and largely wrong information" is a useful service
593. # [12:27] <othermaciej> but then again, people find wikipedia useful
594. # [12:28] <Philip`> Are all the compatibility tables hard-coded into the wiki pages, so there's no way to run tests automatedly and update the tables?
595. # [12:28] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, there's an issues database
596. # [12:28] <tomg> nothing supports <video> does it>
597. # [12:28] <othermaciej> Safari 3.1 supports <video>
598. # [12:28] <tomg> oh.
599. # [12:28] <tomg> yes
600. # [12:28] <othermaciej> also supports styling it
601. # [12:29] <Hixie> othermaciej: http://code.google.com/p/doctype/issues/list
602. # [12:29] <tomg> that's the only one
603. # [12:29] <Hixie> http://code.google.com/p/doctype/issues/entry to file a new one
604. # [12:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: thanks
605. # [12:30] <Hixie> Philip`: thanks for the links, i have learnt something new about google that i didn't before. :-)
606. # [12:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: you aren't acking the self-closing flag on isindex. Why is that?
607. # [12:38] <Hixie> isindex isn't valid anyway
608. # [12:38] <hsivonen> so why produce one more error?
609. # [12:38] <Hixie> you don't have to show it :-)
610. # [12:39] <Hixie> if you want the spec changed send mail
611. # [12:39] <Hixie> i don't really have a strong opinion
612. # [12:39] <Hixie> i just didn't want to ack anything that wasn't valid
613. # [12:39] <hsivonen> making the delta between normative and shown errors bigger is not nice for interoperable test cases
614. # [12:39] <Hixie> (there's no real good reason for such wants)
615. # [12:39] <hsivonen> you ack wbr
616. # [12:39] <Hixie> doesn't wbr come along with a bunch of valid elements?
617. # [12:40] <Hixie> as far as i recall i just did whatever was the smallest change
618. # [12:42] <hsivonen> email sent
619. # [12:43] <annevk> wbr should become valid anyway :)
620. # [12:43] <annevk> or maybe just nobr, hmm
621. # [12:43] <hsivonen> that too
622. # [12:44] <hsivonen> speaking of test cases and the self-closing flag, we need to change the tokenizer test format
623. # [12:44] <hsivonen> for backwards compat, we probably should make self-closing appear in JSON only when true
624. # [12:44] <annevk> wtf is up with this ARIA debate
625. # [12:45] <annevk> "Next steps for the ARIA syntax discussion"
626. # [12:45] <Hixie> i think the next step is called "shipping"
627. # [12:45] <hsivonen> lol
628. # [12:46] <hsivonen> also, do we want test cases to track the self-closing flag on end tag tokens?
629. # [12:46] <annevk> yeah, maybe it's better to not reply for a month or so than put energy into this
630. # [12:47] <Hixie> i was telling hsivonen earlier that my recommendation is just to reply to the tag e-mail, quoting just the part that suggests a colon, and say, basically: "we have a requirement that the same script access to the attribute value work in XML and HTML without syntactical differences in the markup. this doesn't address that requirement."
631. # [12:47] <Hixie> in no more than one paragraph
632. # [12:47] <Hixie> without any fluff
633. # [12:50] <annevk> "But I am also in the small minority of HTML authors who have read the spec and try to follow it." after he just said that <b> and <i> are obsolete and you need to use <span> instead...
634. # [12:51] <othermaciej> if Google actually uses this bogus UA check code internally then I am very afraid: http://code.google.com/docreader/#p(doctype)s(doctype)t(ArticleUserAgent)
635. # [12:54] <hsivonen> did someone already put hendry's vim script on the WHATWG wiki?
636. # [12:56] <Hixie> othermaciej: what's wrong with it?
637. # [12:56] <othermaciej> well, I filed a bunch of things I found wrong here: http://code.google.com/p/doctype/issues/detail?id=8
638. # [12:57] <othermaciej> I would expect there are also mistakes relating to browsers where I am less familiar with the UA string
639. # [12:57] <annevk> Hixie, the blacklist is in AC as well for the theoretical case of another spec wanting to do something similar to XHR
640. # [12:58] <Hixie> annevk: like what?
641. # [12:58] <annevk> another type of XMLHttpRequest
642. # [12:59] <Hixie> othermaciej: oh, those aren't major issues
643. # [12:59] <Hixie> othermaciej: i thought you'd found major problems :-)
644. # [12:59] <annevk> I don't think we should have that, but the spec could handle it in theory
645. # [12:59] <othermaciej> using indexOf() to implement the check is pretty bad
646. # [12:59] <othermaciej> as is identifying Safari as "khtml"
647. # [12:59] <annevk> that's why the spec also defines the preflight request itself, etc.
648. # [12:59] <Hixie> annevk: i don't understand why you'd ever want to allow all headers on an author-controlled cross-domain request
649. # [13:00] <Hixie> othermaciej: *shrug* it doesn't break anything though
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651. # [13:00] <annevk> Hixie, but then we'd be stuck with Accept and Accept-Language ...
652. # [13:00] * Joins: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
653. # [13:01] <Hixie> othermaciej: i agree it's not perfect, don't get me wrong; but it's not stop-ship or anything
654. # [13:01] <Hixie> annevk: so? we are anyway, no?
655. # [13:01] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
656. # [13:01] <annevk> the current proposal handles arbitrary headers
657. # [13:01] <annevk> though it requires a preflight request for those not in the whitelist nor in the blacklist
658. # [13:01] <annevk> in the GET case
659. # [13:02] <othermaciej> it's also pretty sloppy code in general
660. # [13:02] <othermaciej> certainly not worthy of being held up as an example
661. # [13:03] <annevk> hmm
662. # [13:03] <annevk> Jonas' second case might be solved by simply converting \ to /
663. # [13:04] <annevk> which I think is what some UAs already do...
664. # [13:04] <othermaciej> if the utility functions are really used by google then they make good fodder for possibly APIs to add as native
665. # [13:07] <hendry> hsivonen: not from the recent changes page i can see
666. # [13:09] <Hixie> <Hixie> othermaciej: i agree it's not perfect, don't get me wrong; but it's not stop-ship or anything
667. # [13:09] <Hixie> i agree it's not good sample code, certainly
668. # [13:10] <Hixie> but this is just the first release :-)
669. # [13:10] <othermaciej> I am guessing (perhaps wrongly) that since this stuff has goog.whatever all over it that it comes from some internal code snippet repository
670. # [13:10] <othermaciej> thus I hope fixes make it back to the original
671. # [13:11] <othermaciej> Hixie: I have found much more bogus UA checks in Google apps before though, so I guess it could be worse
672. # [13:11] <Hixie> annevk: wait so you _can_ set arbitrary headers? i thought it was excluively whitelist limited.
673. # [13:11] <Hixie> othermaciej: i don't know if this stuff is from a particular widely used framework, actually
674. # [13:11] <Hixie> particularly
675. # [13:12] <BenMillard> Lachy, on 13th May 2008 you wrote "what we really need for the alt discussion to get somewhere is a study that looks at the reasons why people use alt="" or alt="bogus, validator friendly content" or whatever. The difficulty is in figuring out how to perform such a study" -- http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080513#l-546
676. # [13:12] <annevk> Hixie, yes you can
677. # [13:12] <Hixie> annevk: oh. then nevermind, the blacklist does take effect.
678. # [13:12] <annevk> Hixie, hence the proposal from Jonas I guess to restrict it somehow to only what the server allows
679. # [13:12] <BenMillard> Lachy, the approach I used for Collections of Interesting Data Tables could fit that? http://sitesurgeon.co.uk/tables/
680. # [13:12] <othermaciej> (I recall one trying to identify Safari based on having document.contains and lacking some method on element, which broke when we moved contains() from Node to Element to match IE)
681. # [13:13] <Hixie> othermaciej: heh
682. # [13:13] <othermaciej> Hixie: the sad thing is that it was then using this weird way of detecting Safari to make assumptions about completely unrelated things, like which editing APIs are present
683. # [13:14] <Hixie> that's sad
684. # [13:14] <othermaciej> I think someone got the idea that capability testing is better than UA testing but the message got garbled in transmission
685. # [13:14] <Hixie> yeah really
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689. # [13:23] <Lachy> they were probably trying to work around the problem of browsers lying about user agent strings. But such detection is only necessary when you actually want to use the APIs your testing for.
690. # [13:26] <Lachy> BenMillard, it could work. But, as I said a few minutes after that, how do you determine an authors reasons based solely upon what they did?
691. # [13:28] <hsivonen> Lachy: you hire an economist :-)
692. # [13:28] <Lachy> if the hypothesis is that validators insisting upon the alt attribute encourage people to simply make the validator happy, then what predictions can be made from that, which can be tested?
693. # [13:28] <Dashiva> Lachy: That some useful images will have alt=""
694. # [13:29] * Joins: Philip` (n=philip@zaynar.demon.co.uk)
695. # [13:29] <Dashiva> (and alt="image" and alt="alt" and alt="stop bothering me stupid validator I hate accessibility" :)
696. # [13:29] <BenMillard> Lachy, e-mailing every author whose markup I collect to ask why they did it that way might actually work, although I understand hsivonen's reservations about that
697. # [13:30] <BenMillard> but what authors actually do is more relevant than why they do it, imho
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700. # [13:32] <Lachy> BenMillard, no, why they do it is more relevant when trying to defend a position that is itself a reason for why
701. # [13:32] <Lachy> we already know roughly what authors do
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703. # [13:33] <hsivonen> you could ask people why in the hope that one of them does not lie
704. # [13:33] <hsivonen> then you mitigate the risk of you not inventing all possible reasons
705. # [13:34] <hsivonen> but once you have an array of possible reasons, you need to test if the actual behavior matches
706. # [13:34] <Hixie> <iframe src="data:text/html,<!DOCTYPE HTML> <p>Hello <p title=&quot;cruel&quot; <p>World"></iframe>
707. # [13:35] <Hixie> that wouldn't be too bad, you'd only have to escape &, ", and maybe '.
708. # [13:35] <BenMillard> hsivovnen, that makes sense
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710. # [13:35] * Hixie is looking for ways to use iframe to embed comments without an http request and without it being ugly and unmaintainable (e.g. base64)
711. # [13:35] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
712. # [13:36] <Hixie> othermaciej: dude, what's up with your network? i'd go batty if my ssh connections kept dropping
713. # [13:36] <BenMillard> lachy & hsivonen, it's a question of whether the sponsorship I hope to get will cover that kind of work. hopefully it will, if it's useful to HTML5 accessibility
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718. # [13:38] <Lachy> maybe, instead of just asking "Why do you insert alt text?", which is very subject to lying, what if we instead presented a page to web developers and asked them to fix it, without actually telling them we're looking specifically at alt text.
719. # [13:39] <BenMillard> Lachy, I don't understand what you and hsivonen mean by authors lying in this context
720. # [13:40] <Lachy> We include a whole bunch of different errors, including several missing alt, then they have to fix the errors in the best way they can..
721. # [13:40] <Hixie> Lachy: what are we trying to learn?
722. # [13:40] <Lachy> we're trying to learn what alt text use and *why* they use it.
723. # [13:41] <Hixie> ah, interesting
724. # [13:41] <Hixie> i predict most use it because they learnt that they were supposed to
725. # [13:41] <Hixie> and that they forget to do so half the time :-)
726. # [13:41] <Hixie> and have no idea how to do a good job
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728. # [13:41] <Lachy> so if validation is all they're trying to achieve, then we would expect authors to simply insert alt="" or alt="bogus". But if they actually care about accessibility, we would get real alt text
729. # [13:42] <BenMillard> Hixie & Lachy, we can make educated guesses easily enough
730. # [13:42] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
731. # [13:42] <BenMillard> part of my commercial work is retrofitting accessibility and training authors; usually they don't know alt even exists
732. # [13:42] <Hixie> Lachy: anecdotally, it seems that they try (and mostly fail) to use it for its intended purpose
733. # [13:43] <Hixie> BenMillard: indeed
734. # [13:44] <BenMillard> I think Lachy is suggesting a more scientific (with a small "s") way to figure out what reasons are common and uncommon, along with typical levels of alt text quality
735. # [13:44] <Lachy> there's still a few problems with my ideas. How do we set up appropriate controls and elimiate as many other issues as possile
736. # [13:44] <Lachy> *possible
737. # [13:44] <Lachy> BenMillard, I'm trying to make it as scientific as possible. Obviously, it needs improvement
738. # [13:46] <BenMillard> Lachy, selection bias is an issue. anything that requires voluntary work (like correcting a sample page) will get bloggers, students, a few standardistas and maybe some HTML4all type peeps but no mainstream authors
739. # [13:47] <annevk> hmm, copying over what HTML5 currently says does not seem like a good solution
740. # [13:47] <annevk> and there's nothing else
741. # [13:48] <Lachy> BenMillard, the sample only needs to consist of people who actually care about validation. People who don't care about validation are irrelevant, since they won't be affected by what the validator says.
742. # [13:48] <hsivonen> Lachy: unless you are looking for spillover effects
743. # [13:48] <BenMillard> Lachy, that doesn't quite match my experience.
744. # [13:48] <Lachy> but there's still selection bias problems if we inadvertenly get a lot of people who care a lot about accessibility
745. # [13:49] <zcorpan> couldn't it be possible to search in forums for people who ask about the alt attribute in the context of validation? although that only catches authors who validate *and ask*, not authors who validate and "fix" without asking
746. # [13:49] <Lachy> so we would need some way of measuring the experience of each subject
747. # [13:49] <zcorpan> but could still be interesting to look into
748. # [13:49] <BenMillard> Lachy, I find websites (particularly in the public section) who "need" to comply with standards, hence validate, but whose developers don't really care about validation or accessibility
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751. # [13:49] <Lachy> cool, then they might be the kind of people we should target
752. # [13:50] <BenMillard> zcorpan, I've considered collecting tutorials, forum topics, blog entries, national standards and suchlike to analyse where they contradict and where they line up
753. # [13:53] <Hixie> this is one case where it would be important to define the predictions and how to determine whether they are right or not before collecting any data, i think
754. # [13:53] <zcorpan> BenMillard: ok, cool
755. # [13:53] <Lachy> Hixie, indeed
756. # [13:54] <Hixie> ok bed time
757. # [13:54] <Hixie> nn
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760. # [13:56] <hsivonen> nn
761. # [13:57] <annevk> Hixie, the loadstart thing was called out some time ago
762. # [13:57] <annevk> Hixie, and you said back then it didn't match the semantics of HTML5 video that well so you used a different name intentionally
763. # [14:02] * annevk wonders if the other Philip TAYLOR realizes he's alerting a string
764. # [14:02] <annevk> (rather than testing any of the assertions made)
765. # [14:09] <annevk> (i was wrong about Hixe saying something about loadstart above)
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767. # [14:11] <Lachy> a more accurate test case: javascript:<!--alert("FAIL");%0Aalert("PASS");
768. # [14:12] <zcorpan> annevk: btw, some of the tests on tc.labs rely on reparsing
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771. # [14:15] <Lachy> HTML4.01 states "The JavaScript engine allows the string "<!--" to occur at the start of a SCRIPT element, and ignores further characters until the end of the line. JavaScript interprets "//" as starting a comment extending to the end of the current line. This is needed to hide the string "-->" from the JavaScript parser."
772. # [14:15] <Lachy> but it doesn't make any normative reference to any spec for JS or ECMAScript
773. # [14:16] <Lachy> so that statement was probably just based on defacto behaviour back then too
774. # [14:17] <annevk> zcorpan, ah, I guess I forgot about that when writing the tests, feel free to fix
775. # [14:17] <othermaciej> the ES4 folks were reluctant to add an actual specification for <!-- comments
776. # [14:17] <othermaciej> or at least Brendan was
777. # [14:17] <Lachy> oh. why?
778. # [14:18] <Lachy> is it supported in any JavaScript engines that are used outside of HTML?
779. # [14:18] <annevk> I think it's because ES has use cases beyond the Web and therefore Web influences should be limited or something
780. # [14:18] <Lachy> what about in ActionScript (which I think is based on ECMAScript)
781. # [14:18] <annevk> I'm not entirely sure I like that approach. Fortunately CSS does define handling of <!-- and -->
782. # [14:20] <Lachy> if it's not specced in ECMAScript and only applies to HTML+JS implementations, then maybe HTML5 should require support for it somehow
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787. # [14:24] <annevk> I think it is supported in the ES runtime as it works in external files too
788. # [14:25] <Lachy> annevk, which ES runtime implementation are you referring to?
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790. # [14:27] <hsivonen> I'm thinking I may not want to be specwise correct on the handling of xmlns attributes
791. # [14:30] <Lachy> hsivonen, in what way do you want to handle them differently?
792. # [14:30] <Lachy> do you want to flag them with warnings?
793. # [14:31] <hsivonen> Lachy: I think I want to drop them on the floor and synthetize ns mappings upon ns context change
794. # [14:31] <hsivonen> which is what I do with <html> now
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798. # [14:42] <Lachy> how does that differ from the spec? I thought xmlns was ignored in text/html for the purposes of determining an element's namespace?
799. # [14:42] <Philip`> Opera 9.2 doesn't treat <!-- the same as //
800. # [14:42] <Philip`> (but 9.5 does seem to)
801. # [14:42] <Lachy> although, I'm not really familiar with the mathml parsing section
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804. # [14:49] <hsivonen> Lachy: the spec says you put the xmlns attributes into the DOM instead of throwing them away and generating new clean ones
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809. # [15:00] <annevk> replied to the TAG crap
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811. # [15:04] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/mid/op.ua64w7nk64w2qv@annevk-t60.oslo.opera.com
812. # [15:07] <hsivonen> annevk: thank you!
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815. # [15:12] <zcorpan> annevk: indeed, thanks
816. # [15:13] <zcorpan> Philip`: how does 9.2 treat <!-- differently from // ?
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818. # [15:15] <Philip`> zcorpan: Hmm, I was mistaken - I forgot that <!-- resulted in the </script> being escaped and not ending the script element, which in Opera 9.2 causes the script to not run
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820. # [15:16] <MikeSmith> annevk: thanks for taking time to write the TAG reply
821. # [15:16] <zcorpan> Philip`: ok
822. # [15:18] <Philip`> zcorpan: Opera 9.2/9.5 is a bit funny on http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0D%0A%3Cscript%3E%0D%0A%3C!--%20foo%0D%0A%3C!--%20bar%0D%0A%2F%2F%20--%3E%0D%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E%0D%0A
823. # [15:18] <Philip`> since the 'foo' line disappears from the DOM view
824. # [15:21] <zcorpan> Philip`: oh wow, that's a bug
825. # [15:21] <zcorpan> Philip`: thanks
826. # [15:21] <Philip`> zcorpan: Crazy browser :-)
827. # [15:24] <hsivonen> I think I've now implemented MathML tree construction...
828. # [15:24] <hsivonen> perhaps I should sync test cases now...
829. # [15:26] <zcorpan> Philip`: most browserse are :)
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832. # [15:28] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: thanks also (for TAG reply)
833. # [15:29] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: you're welcome
834. # [15:30] <zcorpan> i wonder if i should reply saying that the analysis doesn't bring up anything that wasn't considered 6 months ago, afaict
835. # [15:30] <zcorpan> it claims to have new discoveries, but i don't see them
836. # [15:30] <zcorpan> (other than a firefox bug that is unrelated to the colon)
837. # [15:31] <zcorpan> (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Apr/0242.html )
838. # [15:32] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: yeah, it would actually be helpful to point that out. lest others be left with the impression that the original decision that led to the implementations was not very carefully considered
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841. # [15:34] <MikeSmith> btw, for those who care, there's another chat with the Internet Explorer team at 10am US/Pacific today
842. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> Chris Wilson said he will be on that
843. # [15:35] <MikeSmith> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/05/13/may-chat-with-the-ie-team-on-thursday.aspx
844. # [15:36] <Lachy> MikeSmith, what timezone is US Pacific?
845. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> PST
846. # [15:36] <MikeSmith> GMT -5 I think
847. # [15:36] <Lachy> nevermind, the blog gives the UTC time as well
848. # [15:36] * hsivonen thinks it's PDT this time of year
849. # [15:37] <Lachy> it says 17:00UTC, so that makes it -07:00
850. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> GMT -8 actually
851. # [15:37] <Lachy> must be DST
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853. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> yeah
854. # [15:37] <MikeSmith> you guys are right
855. # [15:37] <Lachy> ah, that's right. Pacific is on the west coast in the USA.
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857. # [15:38] <Lachy> I'm so used to the pacific being on the east where I'm from :-)
858. # [15:38] <BenMillard> shortest distance is probably going North from here (UK)
859. # [15:38] <MikeSmith> anyway, the MS online chat app they use for those chats blocks Opera and Safari and does not seem to work correctly in Opera or Safari even when you do UA header spoofing
860. # [15:39] <Lachy> ok. I can use Firefox for it
861. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> but it doesn't block Firefox or Minefiel
862. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> Minefield
863. # [15:39] <MikeSmith> Lachy: yeah, it seems to work as expected in FF3 and Minefield
864. # [15:40] <Lachy> how long do they normally go for?
865. # [15:40] * Philip` finally manages to find the IE8 Tech Beta Survey
866. # [15:40] <Philip`> They do quite a good job of hiding these things
867. # [15:40] <Lachy> I have my podcast interview at 20:00 my time (UTC+2), and I need to do some revision beforehand.
868. # [15:40] <Lachy> so I may have to skip it
869. # [15:41] <Philip`> Hmm, Microsoft is nicer than Google since their survey admits that Opera exists
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872. # [15:42] <MikeSmith> Lachy: I think they last for one hour
873. # [15:43] <aaronlev> othermaciej: do you know if your developers looking at ARIA have taken a look at the ARIA implementor's guide we're working on?
874. # [15:44] <Philip`> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/chatroom.aspx?ctl=hlp&lang=en-US says it ought to work in Safari 1.2
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911. # [16:32] <Dashiva> ow
912. # [16:32] <Dashiva> Lisa called you Anna, annevk :)
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915. # [16:34] <Philip`> Dashive: That's an easy mistake to make
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920. # [16:43] * annevk wonders what setAttribute() bug Opera has
921. # [16:45] <Dashiva> That table he made seems very cavalier about dismissing consistency with html
922. # [16:45] <Philip`> annevk: http://www.w3.org/XML/2008/04/ARIA-Testing/ - "contrary to e.g. the definition of GetAttributeNode in the DOM specification, it matches the argument to GetAttribute against the local name, rather than the nodeName, of the attribute nodes it checks."
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924. # [16:45] <annevk> it seems PFWG members also have some weird notion of what they're working on "Losing the namespaces architectures seems to brake a lot of the original aim of what we set out to do."
925. # [16:46] <annevk> it seems to me they set out to create a low-level accessibility API
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928. # [16:48] <annevk> Philip`, ah, that's probably a bug, though DOM Level 3 Core clearly states that using getAttribute() does not give predictable results in namespace aware environments
929. # [16:50] <annevk> Dashiva, I replied to that e-mail on www-archive
930. # [16:50] <annevk> Given Henry's latest I've the feeling I'm wasting my time though
931. # [16:51] <annevk> He clearly lives in another world where namespaces are so important that pragmatism can simply be ignored and complex solutions are preferable over simple ones.
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941. # [17:20] * gsnedders guesses he has broken his local copy of html5lib seeming nothing passes
942. # [17:21] <annevk> hsivonen might have made some changes to the tests from what I've read
943. # [17:22] <virtuelv> what happens if <script async> does a document.write?
944. # [17:25] <annevk> same as injecting some script into the document with document.write does now
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946. # [17:27] <virtuelv> annevk: that's not at all clear
947. # [17:27] * MikeSmith happy to discover that Google Doctype is directly accessible through http://code.google.com/p/doctype/wiki/Welcome (as alternative to use DocReader interface)
948. # [17:28] <virtuelv> annevk: my point being, given that I have a DOM that is "script async, foo1, foo2, foo3"
949. # [17:28] <virtuelv> and assume the script does a document.write, and the document has parsed foo2 but not foo3
950. # [17:28] <virtuelv> does the write insert the content before foo1 or after foo2?
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956. # [17:33] <MikeSmith> Google Code wikis don't provide any way to view change history for a particular wiki page?
957. # [17:33] <annevk> ok, I'm going through the 460 checkins now and summarizing them
958. # [17:34] <soypunk> MikeSmith: I think the only way you can view the history of a wiki page is through SVN
959. # [17:35] <soypunk> example: http://code.google.com/p/doctype/source/browse/wiki/ADisabledAttribute.wiki
960. # [17:35] <soypunk> (well that's their web interface to SVN anyway...)
961. # [17:36] <soypunk> (so I guess you have two routes. web or actually looking at SVN diffs.)
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963. # [17:36] * soypunk is now known as smedero
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965. # [17:37] * smedero is now known as soypunk
966. # [17:37] * soypunk grrs
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968. # [17:38] <soypunk> seems to be in Colloquy where it doesn't update the IRC nickname preferences. :/
969. # [17:38] <soypunk> seems to be a bug.
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972. # [17:43] <gsnedders> I have something that mostly works to replace charsUntil, jgraham__
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984. # [18:12] <gsnedders> jgraham__: http://code.google.com/p/html5lib/issues/detail?id=69 — that's a "someone else can do this" issue :P
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995. # [18:23] <annevk> anyone know how to add a contact to your skype list?
996. # [18:23] <Lachy> annevk, there should be a + button at the bottom of the window
997. # [18:24] <Lachy> though it might be different on linux from what it is on mac
998. # [18:24] <annevk> ah, indeed
999. # [18:24] <annevk> that dialog looked so complex, i thought it was for something else :)
1000. # [18:25] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p5047-ipbf1403marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
1001. # [18:26] <MikeSmith> annevk: which 460 changes you talking about?
1002. # [18:27] <annevk> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?limit=460
1003. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> annevk: might want to take a look at this too:
1004. # [18:27] <annevk> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/html5/diff/#changelog
1005. # [18:27] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/pubnotes/FPWDdiff-colored.html
1006. # [18:29] * Quits: webben (n=benh@nat/yahoo/x-b3598392a632c04c) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
1007. # [18:30] <annevk> interesting stuff
1008. # [18:30] * Joins: hober (n=ted@unaffiliated/hober)
1009. # [18:35] <virtuelv> baby lolcats, document.write has interop issues
1010. # [18:42] <virtuelv> This is a mess I wish I hadn't started testing
1011. # [18:44] <Philip`> virtuelv: The world will love you for it
1012. # [18:45] <virtuelv> Philip`: let's just say that in a test set of three browsers, no two are entirely consistent with each other
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1014. # [18:45] <virtuelv> I just wish we could forbid all use of document.write outright
1015. # [18:45] <Philip`> virtuelv: If you only got three different results, that's pretty good going
1016. # [18:45] <virtuelv> Banner advertising is destroying the web
1017. # [18:45] <virtuelv> Philip`: in some cases I do, yes
1018. # [18:46] <Philip`> It's worse when browsers are not even consistent with themselves
1019. # [18:51] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@207.47.11.2.static.nextweb.net)
1020. # [18:52] <zcorpan> annevk: s/formet/format/
1021. # [18:52] <zcorpan> annevk: s/dataSet/dataset/
1022. # [18:52] <zcorpan> btw, shouldn't pixelratio be on <video> as well as <source>?
1023. # [18:53] <zcorpan> and shouldn't <audio><source pixelratio> be disallowed?
1024. # [18:54] <zcorpan> Hixie: ^
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1028. # [19:04] <virtuelv> Philip`: it sucks even more than you can imagine
1029. # [19:10] <annevk> zcorpan, fixed those offline
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1032. # [19:19] <virtuelv> there is enough wtf's in this thing to create an acid test all on its own
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1042. # [19:42] <zcorpan_> Hixie: vLinkColor should be vlinkColor and likewise for aLinkColor
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1045. # [20:00] * Philip` sees "Q: [120] How are you doing with ACID3 ? A: Not really a relevant test for us right now. We're very focused on improving our standards compliance in CSS, HTML and DOM; the Acid3 test chases browser bugs.
1046. # [20:00] <Philip`> Our number has improved from IE7, but we're not really focused on it. If the author gets around to writing a guide to it, we might be able to break it apart more quickly."
1047. # [20:01] <gsnedders> Philip`: Where's that?
1048. # [20:02] <Philip`> gsnedders: The IE8 Experts chat thing
1049. # [20:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: Ah. that thing that claims to work in Saf1.2 and later but not your current browser when using Saf3.1.1
1050. # [20:02] <hober> link?
1051. # [20:03] <Philip`> hober: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone/chats/default.mspx
1052. # [20:03] <Philip`> but there's only a minute left
1053. # [20:03] <Philip`> gsnedders: You should get yourself a proper browser, like Minefield
1054. # [20:03] <gsnedders> Philip`: It only lists Saf1.2 or later as being supported on OS X :P
1055. # [20:04] <gsnedders> Philip`: But Minefield works (Fx 2.0 doesn't)
1056. # [20:05] <zcorpan_> acid3 doesn't need a guide for breaking it apart quickly
1057. # [20:07] * Parts: BenMillard (i=cerbera@cpc1-flee1-0-0-cust285.glfd.cable.ntl.com)
1058. # [20:07] <gsnedders> Philip`: Not that I can find anywhere to report a bug
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1086. # [22:17] <Hixie> not a single reply to my e-mail to the tag
1087. # [22:17] * Hixie is sad
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1091. # [22:20] * gsnedders gives Hixie a hug in compensation
1092. # [22:20] <gsnedders> (not that I expect Hixie wants a hug, but hey)
1093. # [22:22] <Hixie> well they could at least tell me i'm being rude or something
1094. # [22:23] <Philip`> Hixie: The email you sent yesterday? I would have thought they'd at least need a teleconference to set an action to respond, and another to then agree on the response
1095. # [22:23] <Hixie> aah
1096. # [22:23] <Hixie> good point
1097. # [22:23] <Hixie> i keep forgetting that people put up artificial barriers to progress
1098. # [22:25] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
1099. # [22:38] <gsnedders> jgraham__: OK, you win. //comment()[normalize-space(.) = 'toc'] takes 0.021s
1100. # [22:38] <gsnedders> And I don't think I'll be using anything any more complex
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1106. # [23:00] <hsivonen> my display broke... now do I buy from Apple or do I shop for alternatives...
1107. # [23:01] <jgraham__> gsnedders: Do you have any idea if the regexp thing actually is faster?
1108. # [23:02] <gsnedders> jgraham__: I dunno. Due to the insane number of error it causes, it may well be just that which makes it slower currently
1109. # [23:02] <jgraham__> hsivonen: For a desktop machine, I assume?
1110. # [23:03] <jgraham__> I read somewhere that apple displays have poor colour saturation
1111. # [23:04] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
1112. # [23:04] <jgraham__> OTOH, buying displays in general is hard because the one piece of information that gives you some idea of the panel characteristics is the one that no one reveals
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1115. # [23:05] <hsivonen> jgraham__: laptop actually but used like a desktop because apple doesn't have a desktop without integrated display between mini and pro
1116. # [23:05] <hsivonen> but yeah, I'm buying a desktop screen
1117. # [23:05] <jgraham__> That makes sense.
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1119. # [23:06] <jgraham__> How much do you care about quality? If you care about size more than colour reproduction I expect non-Apple is the way forward. Otherwise it's a bit harder
1120. # [23:11] <gsnedders> jgraham__: Apple's actual desktop monitors are meant to be very good
1121. # [23:11] <gsnedders> But expensive.
1122. # [23:12] <jgraham__> gsnedders: I agree that they're good (and expensive). I did read somewhere that they have relatively poor colour saturation but that might not actually be true
1123. # [23:12] <gsnedders> I'd go for Dell's UltraSharp range — they use (in the 20", 24", and 30" cases) the same LCD panels as the Apple monitors, and tend to be otherwise just as good if not better, as well as being far cheaper
1124. # [23:12] <gsnedders> jgraham__: I've never seen that in any review, nor has it been my experience in the one I had :P
1125. # [23:13] <gsnedders> jgraham__: What they've used in the latest iMacs suffered from that, though, IIRC
1126. # [23:13] <hsivonen> I like quality but I don't need the best possible panel. at some point price and the looks of the case matter more
1127. # [23:13] * Hixie got an apple cinema display for his mini
1128. # [23:13] <Hixie> and i'm very happy with it
1129. # [23:13] <jgraham__> Well I might be confused
1130. # [23:13] <hsivonen> the easy thing with apple is that you only need to pick a size
1131. # [23:13] <Hixie> sadly the mini can't drive the biggest cinema displays, but oh well
1132. # [23:13] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Well, the Apple one certainly looks better than the Dell one, though the Dell one is far from ugly.
1133. # [23:14] <jgraham__> (I ended up buying a HP LP2065 which isn't as big as I would like but has nice colours and is slightly affordable)
1134. # [23:14] <gsnedders> (It looks nothing special for a monitor, but it isn't easy to find huge flaws with though)
1135. # [23:14] <hsivonen> thanks. I'll look up Apple, Dell and HP
1136. # [23:14] <gsnedders> Hixie: Silly Apple not putting dual-link DVI on it!
1137. # [23:15] <gsnedders> Though I doubt the onboard graphics could cope with the resolution :)
1138. # [23:15] <Hixie> (we use dell ones at work, they're pretty good, lots of ports)
1139. # [23:15] <jgraham__> I /think/ I have a Dell Ultrasharp at work (an oldish 24" widescreen one) but its a little bright and hard to adjust
1140. # [23:15] * gsnedders just re-implemented textContent for lxml: return u"".join(Element.xpath("child::text()")) :P
1141. # [23:16] <jgraham__> gsnedders: That's a more intelligent way of doing it than I thought of
1142. # [23:16] <gsnedders> jgraham__: XPath is really rather powerful. It saddens me that it doesn't support XPath 2.0, though :P
1143. # [23:17] <gsnedders> jgraham__: It's the first way I thought of doing it without manually looping over it (which I expect will be a thousandth of a second quicker)
1144. # [23:18] <jgraham__> gsnedders: I just used recursion, which is probably slower as you have to manually check for comment nodes
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1148. # [23:19] * Joins: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
1149. # [23:23] <gsnedders> There isn't even a function to lowercase a string in XPath 1.0
1150. # [23:25] <gsnedders> is @id case sensitive in HTML?
1151. # [23:25] <hsivonen> gsnedders: use translate()
1152. # [23:25] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Yeah, I know
1153. # [23:26] * Joins: othermaciej_ (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
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1156. # [23:28] <gsnedders> Hmm, a string containing both ' and " cannot be represented in XPath 1.0
1157. # [23:28] * Joins: KevinMarks (n=KevinMar@207.47.11.2.static.nextweb.net)
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1165. # [23:34] <Lachy> My podcast interview went well earliet
1166. # [23:35] <Lachy> *earlier
1167. # [23:35] <Hixie> cool
1168. # [23:35] <Hixie> what did you talk about?
1169. # [23:35] <Hixie> is it online yet?
1170. # [23:35] <Lachy> A lot of it was based upon the ALA article I wrote before
1171. # [23:35] <Lachy> not yet
1172. # [23:35] <gsnedders> work around for today: xpath_string = u"concat('" + u"', \"'\", '".join(id.split("'")) + u"')"
1173. # [23:36] <Lachy> I talked a lot about the community and empahsised that anyone can get involved with the blog, forum, mailing lists, etc.
1174. # [23:36] <Lachy> Then I discussed a few features that are available in browsers today or are being implemented
1175. # [23:37] <Lachy> like canvas and cross document messaging
1176. # [23:37] * Joins: jwalden (n=waldo@RANDOM-THREE-O-EIGHT.MIT.EDU)
1177. # [23:40] <Lachy> Then I did an interview with annevk about selectors api for standardssuck.org
1178. # [23:43] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl027-178-204.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Connection timed out)
1179. # [23:44] <Hixie> Lachy: cool
1180. # [23:44] <Hixie> i'm so glad y'all are doing these talks and interviews and stuff
1181. # [23:45] <Lachy> me too
1182. # [23:45] <Hixie> i'd never have the time to edit the spec if i had to do it :-)
1183. # [23:45] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host217-42-131-213.range217-42.btcentralplus.com) ("Partying in teh intarwebs")
1184. # [23:46] <Lachy> oh, I got some feedback from the podcast guy...
1185. # [23:46] <Lachy> He would like to see a page maintained that describes the current state of implementations of HTML5 features
1186. # [23:47] <Lachy> it would be good if there were someone here capable of maintaining such a page
1187. # [23:47] <Hixie> the annotations in the spec have that info
1188. # [23:47] <smedero> There is this: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Implementations_in_Web_browsers
1189. # [23:47] <Hixie> you could probably write a page that uses those dynamically
1190. # [23:48] <Lachy> yeah, but the spec isn't such a friendly place to send people looking for implementation info
1191. # [23:48] <Hixie> sure but i mean we could make a separate page
1192. # [23:48] <Hixie> that presented the same info
1193. # [23:48] <Hixie> using the same back-end protocol
1194. # [23:48] <Philip`> Would be nice to have a basic test case for each feature so you can easily see which ones your browser supports
1195. # [23:48] <Hixie> and it could even support editing the info
1196. # [23:48] <Lachy> ok
1197. # [23:48] <Hixie> the annotation system supports listing test cases
1198. # [23:48] <Hixie> and demos
1199. # [23:48] <Hixie> too
1200. # [23:49] <Lachy> what would it take to write such a page? Is there some sort of API for it?
1201. # [23:49] * Quits: roc (n=roc@75.144.23.241)
1202. # [23:50] * Joins: aruner (n=chatzill@guest-226.mountainview.mozilla.com)
1203. # [23:51] <Philip`> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/toc-status.html / http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Makefile uses the API
1204. # [23:52] <Hixie> i don't think it's documented, but yes, there's an API
1205. # [23:53] <Lachy> cool. Anyone have time to write the script for it?
1206. # [23:54] <hober> I might give it a go this weekend, but don't quote me on that.
1207. # [23:55] * Lachy makes a note to quote hober on the weekend about it.
1208. # [23:55] <hober> damn.
1209. # Session Close: Fri May 16 00:00:00 2008

The end :)