/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-07-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jul 22 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  12. # [00:55] <gsnedders> Hixie: I can't see why "meaning that a regular </a> end tag" isn't linked in the postprocessor
  13. # [00:57] <Hixie> no idea
  14. # [00:57] <gsnedders> (thus I won't fix the fact it isn't in my copy)
  15. # [00:57] <gsnedders> (in compat.)
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  17. # [01:01] <gsnedders> Hixie: http://pastebin.ca/1078900 — those need to be fixed
  18. # [01:02] <Hixie> cool thanks
  19. # [01:02] <Hixie> will do
  20. # [01:02] <gsnedders> Then no need for --w3c-compat for HTML5 :)
  21. # [01:05] * Philip` 's attempt to test floating point numbers in SpiderMonkey ends up finding a buffer overflow in SpiderMonkey instead :-(
  22. # [01:06] <gsnedders> :D
  23. # [01:13] <Philip`> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=446494 - great fun
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  28. # [02:12] * gsnedders pokes michaeltwofish
  29. # [02:12] * gsnedders laughs at him
  30. # [02:12] * gsnedders runs
  31. # [02:12] <michaeltwofish> gsnedders: I told you I was sensitive :p
  32. # [02:13] <gsnedders> Hixie: When do you think you'll change all the em and the like used for xref currently, BTW?
  33. # [02:13] <Hixie> about an hour or two from now
  34. # [02:13] <gsnedders> Ah :)
  35. # [02:13] <gsnedders> Then no more --w3c-compat! Yay!
  36. # [02:13] <Hixie> :-)
  37. # [02:13] <gsnedders> But libxml2's HTML parser mungles the DOCTYPE :(
  38. # [02:13] * Hixie waves his "specgen 1.2" flag
  39. # [02:13] <gsnedders> :D
  40. # [02:14] <gsnedders> Which leads to it outputting no DOCTYPE using that parser, meaning html5lib has to be used, which is annoying slow.
  41. # [02:14] <gsnedders> HTML 4.01 for ever!
  42. # [02:14] <Hixie> i can fix up the doctype in post
  43. # [02:14] <Hixie> no biggie
  44. # [02:15] <gsnedders> Probably quicker to do it that way around than use html5lib
  45. # [02:15] <gsnedders> Hopefully we can eventually get libxml2's HTML parser to be an html5 parser anyway
  46. # [02:15] <Hixie> hopefully
  47. # [02:15] <gsnedders> We can always dream :P
  48. # [02:16] <gsnedders> I'll try and push a first beta release of 1.0 tomorrow
  49. # [02:16] <gsnedders> Hopefully only need one, then I can get out an RC, while will hopefully become the final version without changes
  50. # [02:17] <gsnedders> (The main thing needed now is just docs)
  51. # [02:17] <gsnedders> The only thing that doesn't work is the XML input/output mode.
  52. # [02:17] <gsnedders> And I think that'll just be pushed to 1.1
  53. # [02:18] <gsnedders> Then after that you can get your beloved release :P
  54. # [02:18] <Hixie> push it to 1.3! 1.3! :-D
  55. # [02:18] <gsnedders> :D
  56. # [02:18] <gsnedders> And have what in 1.2?
  57. # [02:18] <gsnedders> I have nothing else in my to-do list for 1.2 yet! :P
  58. # [02:18] <jcranmer> 1.2 be an experimental release?
  59. # [02:19] <gsnedders> jcranmer: So a re-release of 1.1, just experimental? I like that idea.
  60. # [02:19] <Hixie> 1.2 is the one where you have the ability for the Web Workers spec's cross-references to HTML5 to be automatically done
  61. # [02:19] <jcranmer> although typically it's the odd numbers that are experiments...
  62. # [02:19] <Hixie> all the spans that have faded green thick underlines in: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-workers/current-work/
  63. # [02:19] <gsnedders> Hixie: Push XML to 1.3, you mean?
  64. # [02:20] <Hixie> ...should be links to HTML5
  65. # [02:20] <Hixie> yes
  66. # [02:20] <gsnedders> It isn't that much work
  67. # [02:20] <gsnedders> Maybe an hour or so
  68. # [02:20] <gsnedders> I just want to ship 1.0 :P
  69. # [02:20] <Hixie> see, that delays my feature by an hour!
  70. # [02:20] <gsnedders> 1.0 = Keeping Hixie somewhat happy
  71. # [02:20] <gsnedders> 1.1 = Keeping annevk and Lachy happy
  72. # [02:20] <jcranmer> gsnedders: what exactly is it you're working on?
  73. # [02:20] <gsnedders> 1.2 = Making Hixie happy
  74. # [02:21] <Hixie> that's pretty cunning
  75. # [02:21] <Hixie> make me think i'm important but actually put me second, i like it :-P
  76. # [02:21] <gsnedders> Hixie: No, you're just more demanding than the others :P
  77. # [02:21] <Hixie> sounds familiar
  78. # [02:21] <gsnedders> jcranmer: Basically a clone of the CSS WG's postprocessor, so it does xrefs and toc building, and things like date substitution
  79. # [02:22] <jcranmer> ah
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  81. # [02:22] <Hixie> a clone that's faster
  82. # [02:22] <Hixie> the speed being the main feature
  83. # [02:22] <gsnedders> … and better.
  84. # [02:22] * jcranmer is more of a spec complainer than a spec writer
  85. # [02:22] <Hixie> better in 1.2!
  86. # [02:22] <gsnedders> Hixie doesn't care much about the better part.
  87. # [02:22] <gsnedders> He just wants speed.
  88. # [02:22] <Hixie> :-)
  89. # [02:22] <Hixie> what's better about it anyway?
  90. # [02:22] <gsnedders> "i need the section numbering, the table of contents, the cross-referencing, and i think that's all. oh and speed. speed is the most important. oh and the date substitution, maybe, but that i can do myself if necessary."
  91. # [02:23] <gsnedders> (and that's more or less the entire feature list of 1.0)
  92. # [02:23] <Hixie> heh
  93. # [02:23] <Hixie> what are anne and lachlan getting?
  94. # [02:23] <gsnedders> Hixie: Anne just wants one or two things like dfn with header linking to header
  95. # [02:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: Lachlan wants things like biblio
  96. # [02:24] <Hixie> btw if you're still looking for ways to make date substitution faster, just stop doing substitution after the TOC
  97. # [02:24] <gsnedders> That's not overly expensive
  98. # [02:24] <Hixie> hm, <dfn> in the first paragraph after a section header linking to the header would be quite nice, yes
  99. # [02:24] <gsnedders> Anne meant <h1><dfn>foo</dfn></h1>
  100. # [02:25] <Hixie> oh
  101. # [02:25] <Hixie> well that'd be ok too
  102. # [02:25] <gsnedders> http://bugs.gsnedders.com/issues/show/5
  103. # [02:25] <Hixie> actually linking to the paragraph instead of the dfn in the general case wouldn't be bad probably
  104. # [02:25] <Hixie> internal error
  105. # [02:26] <gsnedders> Hmm.
  106. # [02:26] <gsnedders> the dangers of running unstable versions of bug tracking software
  107. # [02:26] <gsnedders> Hixie: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080603#l-556
  108. # [02:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: It just quotes three lines from that, annevk at :36, :37, and :58
  109. # [02:27] <gsnedders> Another thing in 1.1 is indexing
  110. # [02:28] <takkaria> gsnedders: I imagine you'll see a speedup when hubbub can be used with libxml2... given that for my google summer of code project I'll have to write some kind of hubbub<->libxml2 binding, it's not too far off
  111. # [02:28] <gsnedders> takkaria: Then I have to wait for it to get a fair way downstream :P
  112. # [02:28] <takkaria> oh, I suppose so
  113. # [02:28] <takkaria> that will take time
  114. # [02:29] <takkaria> unless someone writes a C to python compiler, but I suppose that defeats the purpose
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  116. # [02:30] <gsnedders> Hixie: I have this lovely option now for the CLI: --w3c-compat-crazy-substitutions
  117. # [02:30] <gsnedders> Which does the rewriting of http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-XXX
  118. # [02:32] * jcranmer wishes he could use WF2 in his intranet
  119. # [02:33] <Hixie> so far i've only really had one hit with html5
  120. # [02:33] <Hixie> namely, postMessage()
  121. # [02:33] <Hixie> that's the only thing that's been implemented by all four major browsers
  122. # [02:33] <jcranmer> <input type="date" /> makes me salivate
  123. # [02:34] <Hixie> i want <menu> and <datagrid>
  124. # [02:34] <jcranmer> because rolling a custom date input that is sane is not fun
  125. # [02:34] <Hixie> yeah
  126. # [02:34] <gsnedders> I want input@type='color'
  127. # [02:34] <takkaria> Hixie: not the DOM storage stuff?
  128. # [02:34] <gsnedders> actually, I _want_ input@type='colour' :P
  129. # [02:34] <Hixie> takkaria: opera and safari haven't got Storage, i don't think, do they?
  130. # [02:35] <Philip`> jcranmer: Custom date inputs are easy - just do <script src="custom-date-input-widget.js">
  131. # [02:35] <Hixie> he said "sane"
  132. # [02:35] <jcranmer> input type=color would also be useful, but I'd want implemented in about five different ways
  133. # [02:35] <Philip`> since you're not the first person on the web to want a date widget, so someone must have a made a decent one already
  134. # [02:35] <jcranmer> Philip`: I forgot to mention one of the requirements: it works without JS
  135. # [02:36] <Hixie> type=color is unlikely to happen, just see how many types of colour pickers mac os x has
  136. # [02:36] <takkaria> Hixie: webkit svn has had --with-dom-storage as a configure option for a while
  137. # [02:36] <Hixie> ah
  138. # [02:36] <jcranmer> the problem with type=color is that people want different things
  139. # [02:36] <Hixie> and opera?
  140. # [02:36] <gsnedders> Hixie: OS X just has a single one, and options within it :P
  141. # [02:37] <jcranmer> chooseable RGB/HSL is common (generally with "recent"), but "select from these options" is also common
  142. # [02:37] <Hixie> mac os x has a colour picker picker
  143. # [02:37] <gsnedders> True.
  144. # [02:37] <gsnedders> Oh well, I better head off to sleep.
  145. # [02:37] <Hixie> nn
  146. # [02:37] <jcranmer> g'night gsnedders
  147. # [02:37] <gsnedders> I expect a fixed HTML 5 by when I awaken! :P
  148. # [02:38] <Hixie> :-)
  149. # [02:38] <Hixie> i'll try :-)
  150. # [02:38] <gsnedders> Not only is Hixie demanding, but so am I :P
  151. # [02:40] <takkaria> Hixie: I thought it had, but maybe it doesn't
  152. # [02:40] <takkaria> still, three out of four, when one of the three is IE, I'd class that as a hit
  153. # [02:40] * jcranmer can't find a bug in mozilla for <input type="date" />
  154. # [02:42] <takkaria> jcranmer: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=344614 would cover it
  155. # [02:42] <Hixie> ok, a platinum and a gold? :-)
  156. # [02:42] <Hixie> not that IE8 has shipped yet
  157. # [02:42] <jcranmer> takkaria: but that's a metabug
  158. # [02:43] <Hixie> also, they tried to embrace and extend DOM Storage, so counting it is dubious
  159. # [02:43] <jcranmer> if you look at deps, you'll see other <input type=""> as bugs
  160. # [02:43] <takkaria> aye, I just saw that
  161. # [02:44] <takkaria> Hixie: MS embrace and extend things they see as a threat, so take it as a compliment :)
  162. # [02:46] <Hixie> oh i had already taken it as a compliment
  163. # [02:46] <Hixie> that's a whole different issue :-)
  164. # [02:48] <jcranmer> if IE supports WF2 in IE 8, I think WebKit + Gecko will bump it up on the todo list
  165. # [02:49] <takkaria> is it going to?
  166. # [02:49] <jcranmer> AFAICT, no
  167. # [02:50] <jcranmer> they're too busy hyping CSS 2.1 support
  168. # [02:51] <jcranmer> and uber-fashionable stuff like WebSlices
  169. # [02:51] <jcranmer> something that every web developer would simply die to have is obviously not on their radar
  170. # [02:51] <Hixie> does anyone actually care about WebSlices?
  171. # [02:51] <jcranmer> outside of MS
  172. # [02:52] <Hixie> i've never heard anyone but microsoft talk about them
  173. # [02:52] <jcranmer> probably not
  174. # [02:52] <takkaria> mozilla labs are doing something with them
  175. # [02:52] <Hixie> oh?
  176. # [02:53] <Hixie> oh you mean the microsummaries stuff?
  177. # [02:53] <Hixie> that's in ff3
  178. # [02:54] <Hixie> webslices seem like a less powerful version of safari's snippets
  179. # [02:54] <jcranmer> since FF already has a datepicker, you'd think that proper input@type=date shouldn't be too hard to add
  180. # [03:00] <Philip`> I'm not familiar with many date pickers but I noticed the one in Vista's clock is actually pretty nice, because it zooms pleasantly, so e.g. if it's showing a list of months and you click a month then it zooms in on it and shows all the days
  181. # [03:01] <Philip`> and you can go century -> decade -> year -> month -> day just by clicking without getting lost and without having nasty fiddly drop-down lists or tiny arrows
  182. # [03:01] <Hixie> this is the clock for setting the system time?
  183. # [03:03] <Philip`> Yes
  184. # [03:03] <Philip`> (I'm not sure if it's used elsewhere)
  185. # [03:03] <Hixie> and it lets you pick centuries?
  186. # [03:03] <Philip`> No, it's limited to the current century (actually 1990-2099) at the outermost zoom level
  187. # [03:04] <Hixie> ah ok
  188. # [03:05] <Hixie> seriously wtf, why do i keep timing out from irc.w3c.org
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  191. # [03:18] <Hixie> ok i fixed the things gsnedders pointed out; I also remove title="" attributes from <em> elements so it's likely that there will be cross-reference problems until i start using his script to gen the spec
  192. # [03:18] <Hixie> hsivonen: the validator seems much slower than it was
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  198. # [04:12] <aroben> Hixie: the bb element's interface is currently called "HTMLCommandElement" -- seems like a typo
  199. # [04:19] <Hixie> duuuuh
  200. # [04:19] <Hixie> me stoopid
  201. # [04:19] <Hixie> thanks fixed
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  205. # [04:47] <Lachy> Hixie, why was command renamed to bb?
  206. # [04:47] <Hixie> it wasn't
  207. # [04:47] <Lachy> oh, sorry, misunderstood
  208. # [04:51] <Lachy> so, if I've understood correctly, is <bb> designed to allow web pages to include commands within the webpage itself to perform user agent functions, somewhat analogous to a link like <a href="javascript:print()">, but in a non-scripted way?
  209. # [04:53] <Hixie> yes
  210. # [04:53] <Hixie> indeed we might add <bb type="print">Print this page</bb> at some point
  211. # [04:54] <Hixie> it's just an idea though, i'm mostly curious to see how othermaciej responds when I post my reply to the list (I'm still writing it)
  212. # [04:54] <Hixie> i think i addressed his concerns
  213. # [04:54] <Hixie> but i'm not 100% sure
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  215. # [04:54] <Lachy> wouldn't action="" be a better name for the attribute?
  216. # [04:54] <Hixie> i guess
  217. # [04:54] <jcranmer> sounds useful, except for the fact that one of the underlying principles in my intranet project is that "it should work without JS unless you have a compelling reason to require JS"
  218. # [04:54] <Hixie> i didn't really think about what to call it
  219. # [04:55] <Hixie> jcranmer: this works without js
  220. # [04:55] <jcranmer> Hixie: I should also mention an IE requirement ;-)
  221. # [04:55] <Hixie> well, IE doesn't support standalone webapps at all, so that point is moot
  222. # [04:55] <jcranmer> in any case, there was one feature I added not too long ago that required FF
  223. # [04:56] <othermaciej> I will read the email and see what I think
  224. # [04:56] <jcranmer> justified on the fact that the only people using it are the people who use FF and actually ask us if it's safe to upgrade to the next minor version :-)
  225. # [04:57] <Hixie> we just hit r1900!
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  236. # [07:21] <gsnedders> Hixie: Well, start using it today :P
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  239. # [07:24] * gsnedders has an obscenely sore stomach and can't sleep
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  242. # [07:42] <Hixie> hm, only Firefox and Safari had window.toolbar
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  251. # [08:03] <gsnedders> Hixie: http://stuff.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/html5.html— output of spec-gen html5.src.html html5.html (i..e, with no options)
  252. # [08:03] <gsnedders> and therefore not in w3c compat mode
  253. # [08:05] <gsnedders> Hixie: The only thing that breaks at all is what I mentioned in the email yesterday
  254. # [08:08] <Hixie> you have some <a>s inside <code>s
  255. # [08:08] <Hixie> i fixed what you mentioned yesterday
  256. # [08:08] <Hixie> the <em>s
  257. # [08:09] <Hixie> oh nevermind
  258. # [08:09] <Hixie> you don't
  259. # [08:10] <gsnedders> Of course I don't. I wrote the code, so therefore it's right.
  260. # [08:12] <Hixie> aw man, now i have double underlines
  261. # [08:13] <Hixie> i don't have the selectors i need to make this work
  262. # [08:13] <gsnedders> Make better selectors!
  263. # [08:13] <gsnedders> :P
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  265. # [08:13] <Hixie> people didn't like my proposal for :matches()
  266. # [08:13] <gsnedders> :uber-html5-selector()
  267. # [08:14] <Hixie> i guess we'll have to switch the <a> and the <code> around
  268. # [08:14] <Hixie> sigh
  269. # [08:20] <gsnedders> We need a parent selector! :P
  270. # [08:20] * gsnedders runs
  271. # [08:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: I guess you don't stand by, "That's easily fixable" :)
  272. # [08:27] <Hixie> guess not
  273. # [08:27] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.132.15)
  274. # [08:28] <gsnedders> Hixie: The thing is, there are already places like http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dynamic0
  275. # [08:31] * Quits: virtuelv (n=virtuelv@192.80-203-77.nextgentel.com) ("Leaving")
  276. # [08:33] <gsnedders> The only thing that matches //code//a in my copy is "identity matrix, and then invoke the transform", where transform is a span inside a code
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  279. # [08:41] <gsnedders> Hixie: Oh well, there's always --w3c-compat-xref-a-placement (which thereby only does that, and no other compat. stuff)
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  289. # [09:46] <hsivonen> aargh. Apache on validator.nu has died again. this time differently.
  290. # [09:47] * Quits: jruderman (n=jruderma@guest-225.mountainview.mozilla.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  291. # [09:48] <hsivonen> time to upgrade the server I guess
  292. # [10:03] <hsivonen> I see "[error] server reached MaxClients setting, consider raising the MaxClients setting" in the Apache logs
  293. # [10:04] <hsivonen> surely Apache shouldn't die if MaxClients is reached?
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  295. # [10:06] <Dashiva> If the clients are hanging/locking up, then there's be none left for new requests, and the server would look pretty dead
  296. # [10:07] <hsivonen> Shouldn't a robust HTTP server recover from such a situation somehow?
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  299. # [10:11] <Dashiva> Apparently there's backlog of waiting requests, but that too has a limit
  300. # [10:14] <hsivonen> how do people generally deal with situations like this? I can't be the first person running Apache.
  301. # [10:15] <hsivonen> as far as I can tell from access logs, there hasn't been any horrid DoS attack going on
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  304. # [10:17] <hsivonen> unless, of course, the relevant last log lines are lost in a situation like this
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  307. # [10:19] <wilhelm> hsivonen: I've had the same issues on my Ubuntu mirror. I just increased the limit significantly.
  308. # [10:19] <wilhelm> As long as the hardware survives, that shouldn't be a problem.
  309. # [10:20] <hsivonen> wilhelm: I'll try that. thanks
  310. # [10:21] <wilhelm> How much traffic is there?
  311. # [10:22] <hsivonen> wilhelm: I don't have numbers at hand, but from looking at the raw logs, not enough to explain this
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  317. # [10:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: how does XHR work from workers if DOM nodes aren't visible in workers?
  318. # [10:40] <virtuelv> <arve> I can provoke Opera into showing me any random number of context menus
  319. # [10:41] <virtuelv> err, wrong clipboard
  320. # [10:41] <virtuelv> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/21/font-embedding-on-the-web.aspx
  321. # [10:43] <jgraham> hsivonen: I was under the impression that XHR didn't work in Workers, but I might be wrong
  322. # [10:44] * Philip` sees https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=437152
  323. # [10:45] <Philip`> (including #c9)
  324. # [10:45] <hsivonen> jgraham: there's a red box in the worker spec implying that XHR is available
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  330. # [10:59] <Hixie> hsivonen: it works well, just without the "XML" part
  331. # [10:59] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok
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  338. # [11:27] <hsivonen> :-( things are going really wrong with Apache on validator.nu
  339. # [11:28] <Hixie> :-(
  340. # [11:37] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-177-105.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  341. # [11:41] <gsnedders> Why is that I am monumentally more productive sitting on the pier with a notebook than here?
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  344. # [11:45] * gsnedders guesses: no internet
  345. # [11:48] <hendry> hsivonen: need some help?
  346. # [11:49] <hsivonen> hendry: possibly, but I need to look into this some more to have smart questions to ask
  347. # [11:52] * hsivonen sees Timeout 300
  348. # [11:53] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  349. # [11:53] <hendry> hsivonen: i am thinking of trying to get css validator going on one of my machines.
  350. # [11:54] <hendry> don't know why the W3 haven't done anything on the GNU output front. Holidays?
  351. # [11:55] <hsivonen> hendry: I don't know what the usual feature request fulfillment time is for the CSS validator
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  354. # [11:56] <hendry> afaik they need to drop in the template which i helped make and restart the server ;)
  355. # [11:59] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
  356. # [12:00] <Hixie> i think spec authors and working groups should be required to work on a dozen vaguely related things instead of allowing any one group to focus on one specific problem
  357. # [12:00] <Hixie> i think having too much expertise on one problem leads to overengineered specs that do too much.
  358. # [12:00] * Hixie gets off his soapbox
  359. # [12:01] * hsivonen wonders which WG inspired the soapboxing this time
  360. # [12:01] <Hixie> CMML/annodex
  361. # [12:01] <Hixie> and timed text
  362. # [12:01] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (Client Quit)
  363. # [12:02] * hsivonen is not a fan of the W3C timed text spec
  364. # [12:04] <hendry> is it a sin to markup my audio oggs in a video tag?
  365. # [12:05] <hsivonen> hendry: I have installed software from an unofficial but distribution-specific apt source. do I need to do something specific before I upgrade the distrobution in place?
  366. # [12:05] <wilhelm> Hm. Is the <bb> element supposed to replace stuff like this?: <form action='./delete/' method='post'><input type='submit' value='Delete'></form>
  367. # [12:06] <hsivonen> wilhelm: as far as I can tell, the purpose of <bb> is to provide a trigger for turning a Web app into a Dock icon
  368. # [12:06] <hendry> hsivonen: no.. just: sudo apt-get update && sudo apt-get -u dist-upgrade
  369. # [12:07] <hsivonen> hendry: ok. thanks
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  379. # [12:33] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: you around?
  380. # [12:33] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I appear to be
  381. # [12:35] <MikeSmith> so I know you've almost got a complete workalike of the CSS module postprocesser thing done, but if you still have time and interest, maybe it would be used for rethinking something better than that
  382. # [12:36] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Re-thinking in what way?
  383. # [12:36] <MikeSmith> well, in terms of the markup I forces me to put in my source -- the CSS module postprocessor system seems kind of broken by design
  384. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> the [FOO] macro stuff
  385. # [12:37] <gsnedders> Ah. I already had a relatively long discussion about that.
  386. # [12:37] <MikeSmith> OK
  387. # [12:38] <gsnedders> On the face of it, it would be nice to use <!--foo--> instead, but then you can't do <link rel="stylesheet" href="http://www.w3.org/StyleSheets/TR/W3C-[STATUS]">
  388. # [12:39] <gsnedders> I'd be happy to implement something nicer, pending something found without large flaws
  389. # [12:39] <MikeSmith> well, for the Web IDL spec, heycam came up with something that I think is pretty good
  390. # [12:40] <MikeSmith> hang on, lemme get you a URL
  391. # [12:41] <hsivonen> fwiw, my bibliography generator uses [Foo] in text content as the bibliography trigger
  392. # [12:42] * Joins: mitsuhiko (n=nnnnnmit@ubuntu/member/mitsuhiko)
  393. # [12:43] <gsnedders> hsivonen: postprocesser does [[foo]]
  394. # [12:43] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/html5/pubnotes/Overview.src.html?rev=1.316&content-type=text/plain;%20charset=utf-8
  395. # [12:44] <MikeSmith> see the <header> stuff
  396. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> viewing the rendered version of the source gives this:
  397. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> it minimizes
  398. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> whoops
  399. # [12:45] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/pubnotes/Overview.src.html
  400. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> and the processed result looks just like other WDs
  401. # [12:46] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/html5/pubnotes/Overview.html
  402. # [12:46] <Lachy> hmm, interesting.
  403. # [12:47] <Lachy> for the class=person and other stuff within, it might be better to use hCard
  404. # [12:47] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-177-105.dsl.telstraclear.net)
  405. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> I cribbed the basics of that from heycam's stuff here:
  406. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2006/webapi/WebIDL/Overview.xml?rev=1.83&content-type=text/plain
  407. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> Lachy: true
  408. # [12:48] <Lachy> hmm, maybe not, cause hcard can be a bit verbose
  409. # [12:48] <Lachy> and its class names aren't really author friendly.
  410. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> well, it's something people may have familiarity with already at least
  411. # [12:48] <MikeSmith> what I have there is just ad-hoc
  412. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> or actually it might be based on docbook
  413. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> anyway, the general idea is to minimize that markup that authors need to put in the source
  414. # [12:49] <MikeSmith> and just move all the boilerplate stuff to the processor
  415. # [12:50] <gsnedders> Stuff like the status section is really W3C specific, and I don't want that much W3C specific stuff
  416. # [12:51] <MikeSmith> you can of course make that configurable
  417. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> or just omit it from the source
  418. # [12:52] <MikeSmith> in which case the processor doesn't need to do anything with it
  419. # [12:53] <gsnedders> or to phrase it another way, it's something I won't use, and thus have little interest in writing code for :)
  420. # [12:53] <Lachy> gsnedders, maybe there's a way to make it more generic, so instead of hard coding W3C specific stuff into the spec-gen, allow authors to provide some sort of boiler-plate text config file that declares things like <!--status--> and its replacement
  421. # [12:54] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: what Lachy said
  422. # [12:54] <gsnedders> Lachy: And then you need a database of long/short forms of statuses; the status boilerplate for each status, which varies from WG to WG
  423. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> boilerplate for status doesn't vary from group to group, actually
  424. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> it's mostly the same
  425. # [12:55] <MikeSmith> some strings in it are different
  426. # [12:56] <Lachy> gsnedders, parts of the status are the same for everyone and other parts are customised for each spec. That's not a problem
  427. # [12:56] <MikeSmith> btw, I was recently told that there's no requirement to mention the W3C activity or domain in the status
  428. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> so those can be ommitted
  429. # [12:57] <Lachy> but even if they were different, then just let each WG provide their own config file with customised boilerplate text
  430. # [12:57] <MikeSmith> the only thing in the W3C status boilerplate that's really W3C specific is the IPP thing
  431. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> all the other variables there are general
  432. # [12:58] <MikeSmith> 1) a group name 2) a mailing adress for comments 3) a URL for archive of the mailing list
  433. # [12:59] * Lachy wonders what Rob is smoking. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0273.html
  434. # [12:59] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2008Jul/0267.html
  435. # [13:00] * Lachy is resisting the urge to respond cause it'll only end up being a flamewar
  436. # [13:01] <MikeSmith> Lachy: yep
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  439. # [13:02] <MikeSmith> on the good-news side, John Resig recent blog entry about performance of DocumentFragment is kinda nice
  440. # [13:05] <Lachy> MikeSmith, link?
  441. # [13:05] <hsivonen> Lachy: replying wouldn't be productive
  442. # [13:06] <Lachy> hsivonen, I know, that was my point.
  443. # [13:07] <Lachy> http://ejohn.org/blog/dom-documentfragments/
  444. # [13:08] <zcorpan_> funny that he calls hsivonen ignorant about dtds
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  447. # [13:17] <gsnedders> http://comox.textdrive.com/pipermail/wp-hackers/2008-July/021076.html — more WP fun
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  462. # [13:47] <zcorpan_> http://wimleers.com/blog/whatwg-truly-open-participation-for-designing-the-next-foundation-of-the-internet makes me smile :)
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  465. # [14:11] * hsivonen sees a LATERed bug (http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5833) despite REMIND and LATER being considered harmful
  466. # [14:12] * Philip` wishes Opera's JS implementation supported 'for each'
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  468. # [14:21] <Lachy> hsivonen, why are LATER and REMIND harmful?
  469. # [14:22] <hsivonen> Lachy: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13534 https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35839
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  475. # [14:40] <Lachy> aargh! NO! I just deleted a bunch of files I shouldn't have :-(
  476. # [14:41] * Lachy will have to recreate them :-(
  477. # [14:41] <Philip`> Look in the Recycle Bin
  478. # [14:43] <Lachy> Philip`, out of habbit, I emptied the trash straight away without realising that the wrong file had been selected. The problem was I didn't notice I'd
  479. # [14:43] * Joins: virtuelv_ (n=virtuelv@213.236.208.247)
  480. # [14:45] <hsivonen> Lachy: no Time Machine?
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  483. # [14:47] <Philip`> The data's probably still on disk, so just "hexdump -C /dev/sda" or whatever the non-Linux equivalent is
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  485. # [14:48] <Lachy> I have no idea what the Mac equivalent for that would be
  486. # [14:49] <Lachy> maybe I can install it. But what does that command do?
  487. # [14:49] <gsnedders> /dev/disk0s1 is the root drive, IIRC
  488. # [14:49] <hsivonen> Lachy: you can read the disk with 'less' on Mac
  489. # [14:49] <gsnedders> (You can look up that in Disk Utility)
  490. # [14:49] <gsnedders> But you probably just want /dev/disk0 actually
  491. # [14:49] <Philip`> /dev/sda is just a file that gives direct access to the hard disk
  492. # [14:50] <Lachy> hsivonen, how do I use 'less'?
  493. # [14:50] <Philip`> and hexdump is kind of like cat except it dumps stuff in hex
  494. # [14:50] <Philip`> (and hexdump -C is a nicer format output)
  495. # [14:50] <Lachy> should I just use: less /dev/sda
  496. # [14:50] <gsnedders> Lachy: You want /dev/disk0, and not /dev/sda
  497. # [14:51] <Philip`> Reading a hundred gigabytes of data through 'less' might not be the best idea ever :-p
  498. # [14:51] <gsnedders> Why not? :P
  499. # [14:51] * gsnedders runs away
  500. # [14:51] <gsnedders> To the pier!
  501. # [14:51] <gsnedders> (with a notebook)
  502. # [14:52] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.132.148)
  503. # [14:52] <gsnedders> (I'm more productive sitting there with a notebook than I am with the internet and everything else to distract me at home, unless I meet someone I know)
  504. # [14:52] <Lachy> ok, so do I just keep going through the all the output till I see the file I want?
  505. # [14:52] <hsivonen> Lachy: sudo less -f /dev/disk0s1
  506. # [14:53] <hsivonen> Lachy: less has search
  507. # [14:53] <Philip`> You'd probably have to search for part of the file's content, not its filename
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  509. # [14:54] <Lachy> Philip`, how do I search for it?
  510. # [14:54] <Philip`> How large is the file?
  511. # [14:54] <Lachy> the important one was just a python script
  512. # [14:54] <hsivonen> Lachy: press slash and then type a string that is unique in the contents of the file and hit enter
  513. # [14:54] * Philip` would have thought there'd exist some kind of undeleter program that would be easier to use than less :-)
  514. # [14:55] <Lachy> Philip`, there is, but they cost money
  515. # [14:56] <Philip`> Lachy: That seems an unfortunate side-effect of using OS X
  516. # [14:57] <Lachy> I guess I can just rewrite the script again if I can't get it. It was based on this one http://junkyard.damowmow.com/322
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  519. # [14:58] * Philip` thinks he has never actually bought any software ever, except for games
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  533. # [15:24] <Lachy> I couldn't recover the files from my disk, but luckily I can redownload most of them from the original sources and rewrite the python script
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  549. # [16:44] <Lachy> this time, I checked the script into CVS so I won't lost it again. http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/html5/html-author/utils/
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  552. # [16:53] <hsivonen> why is the WHATWG copy of the spec lacking a doctype?
  553. # [16:57] <zcorpan> because quirks mode is the new shit
  554. # [16:57] * Quits: gavin_ (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) ("leaving")
  555. # [16:58] <zcorpan> or because http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/header-whatwg has <!DOCTYPE html> and the css post processor strips the doctype in that case
  556. # [16:59] * Joins: gavin_ (n=gavin@people.mozilla.com)
  557. # [16:59] <Lachy> zcorpan, then why would the DOCTYPE still be in the W3C copy?
  558. # [16:59] <zcorpan> i guess Hixie is waiting for gsnedders' 1.2 specgen
  559. # [16:59] <zcorpan> Lachy: i guess the w3c copy has a different header
  560. # [17:00] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Likely because my spec-gen is being used for the WHATWG copy, and with the libxml2 HTML parser being used, it vanishes
  561. # [17:01] <gsnedders> Actually, that can't be it
  562. # [17:01] <zcorpan> gsnedders: oh is hixie already using your specgen?
  563. # [17:01] <gsnedders> zcorpan: Not yet, it seems
  564. # [17:01] <zcorpan> ok
  565. # [17:01] <gsnedders> The stuff he wants in 1.2 is completely new stuff: 1.0 does everything he needs that already happens
  566. # [17:02] <gsnedders> But yeah, the W3C copy has a different header
  567. # [17:02] <gsnedders> And pubrules stipulate that a normative copy of the spec must exist as HTML 4.01 or XHTML 1.0
  568. # [17:03] <Philip`> The multipage W3C one is HTML 4, so that can be the normative copy :-)
  569. # [17:03] <gsnedders> :P
  570. # [17:04] <hsivonen> anyway, I just deployed a fix for http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=5796
  571. # [17:04] <hsivonen> which makes errors go away when validating the spec
  572. # [17:05] <zcorpan> i like that hyatt is an editor for the w3c version but not for the whatwg version
  573. # [17:05] <gsnedders> He wrote the status section for the W3C, I guess.
  574. # [17:05] <gsnedders> :P
  575. # [17:06] <hsivonen> I guess the data templates stuff is partially hyatt's.
  576. # [17:06] <hsivonen> even if Hixie expressed it in writing
  577. # [17:06] <zcorpan> and now Hixie's gonna drop it :(
  578. # [17:07] <gsnedders> "Special thanks and $10,000 to David Hyatt who came up with a broken implementation of the adoption agency algorithm that the editor had to reverse engineer and fix before using it in the parsing section."
  579. # [17:07] <gsnedders> Isn't that a conflict of interest?
  580. # [17:07] <zcorpan> did he actually get $10,000?
  581. # [17:07] <gsnedders> No :P
  582. # [17:07] <Philip`> hsivonen: People who come up with ideas go in the acknowledgements section; the people in the editors section should be the people who edit
  583. # [17:08] <zcorpan> gsnedders: :(
  584. # [17:08] <gsnedders> Which is why he could just edit the status section of the W3C copy, and then he's an editor of that but not the WHATWG copy :P
  585. # [17:08] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/2413
  586. # [17:08] <gsnedders> Philip`: Heh.
  587. # [17:09] <gsnedders> I still like http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/3770
  588. # [17:10] <gsnedders> Philip`: And for you, http://quotes.burntelectrons.org/3653
  589. # [17:12] <gsnedders> http://stuff.gsnedders.com/spec-gen/html5.html — that the latest copy of the WHATWG spec from my spec-gen
  590. # [17:14] <zcorpan> gsnedders: are you stipping optional tags per html5 rules or not at all?
  591. # [17:14] <zcorpan> not at all it seems
  592. # [17:14] <gsnedders> zcorpan: I'm following html5lib's defaults.
  593. # [17:15] <gsnedders> Whatever they are :)
  594. # [17:15] <zcorpan> ok
  595. # [17:15] <Philip`> The table of contents ought to have newlines so the source is readable
  596. # [17:15] <gsnedders> Yeah, it ought to.
  597. # [17:15] <gsnedders> I never got round to doing that, though.
  598. # [17:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: it's for browsers to read. the pre-specgen version is for humans
  599. # [17:16] <zcorpan> why would you read the source of the toc?
  600. # [17:17] <Philip`> hsivonen: Humans read what is published, and the post-specgen version is what's published
  601. # [17:17] <gsnedders> I think that's the only thing that I generate that is unreadable
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  604. # [17:18] <takkaria> zcorpan: puts you to sleep quickly at night, I'd say
  605. # [17:18] <Philip`> zcorpan: Reading the spec's source is sometimes interesting because it has comments and jokes and stuff, and when reading the spec's source you inevitably see the giant ugly lump of TOC code while scrolling down
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  607. # [17:19] <hsivonen> Philip`: the comments also have interesting SVG parsing stuff :-)
  608. # [17:21] <Lachy> Philip`, there's a reveal comments bookmarklet you can use for that, so you don't need to look at the source for them http://lachy.id.au/dev/utilities/
  609. # [17:21] <zcorpan> <h5 id=the-xml:base-attribute-(xml-only)> -- omg that wouldn't be xml-namespace-valid if converted to xml
  610. # [17:21] <gsnedders> zcorpan: It doesn't try to be, though :)
  611. # [17:22] <gsnedders> zcorpan: It does different stuff in HTML 4.01 documents to keep them conforming, with stricter @id syntax
  612. # [17:22] <gsnedders> zcorpan: And when I get around to getting XML working, it will be all right there too
  613. # [17:22] <Philip`> Lachy: But I'm too lazy to learn how to use bookmarklets, and I already know how to open 'view source' quickly
  614. # [17:22] <zcorpan> gsnedders: so the w3c and whatwg copies end up having different ids?
  615. # [17:22] <hsivonen> Lachy: cool. it beachballs firefox 3 on the spec, though
  616. # [17:23] <gsnedders> zcorpan: hmm. true.
  617. # [17:23] <MikeSmith> if the generated TOC doesn't have newlines, it makes a gigantic diff any time a single change is made to one section title in the spec
  618. # [17:23] <Lachy> hsivonen, only for a few seconds
  619. # [17:23] <zcorpan> gsnedders: i think it'd make sense to have the same rules for all even though text/html html5 allows more characters than xml or html4
  620. # [17:23] <Lachy> Philip`, all you do is drag it to your bookmarks toolbar and then click on it to use it
  621. # [17:24] * MikeSmith sees that he just re-stated what Philip had already said better
  622. # [17:24] <Philip`> MikeSmith: Not if the diffs are done on the pre-specgen version
  623. # [17:24] <MikeSmith> Philip`: true
  624. # [17:24] <gsnedders> zcorpan: I'd rather not, but just make it an option
  625. # [17:24] <Philip`> Lachy: I don't have a bookmarks toolbar
  626. # [17:24] <hsivonen> Philip`: my bookmarks toolbar is for bookmarklets
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  630. # [17:27] <Lachy> Philip`, I'm sure Opera has several toolbars available in which you could add it as a button or something
  631. # [17:29] <Lachy> this is sad http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2008/07/21/font-embedding-on-the-web.aspx
  632. # [17:29] <Philip`> Lachy: Whenever I change my browser UI at all, the differences disturb me for days :-(
  633. # [17:29] <zcorpan> Philip`: commit-watchers does diffs on both the generated and the source versions
  634. # [17:30] <gsnedders> http://bugs.gsnedders.com/projects/roadmap/spec-gen
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  637. # [17:32] * hsivonen hasn't heard of Ascender Corporation before
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  640. # [17:42] * hsivonen discovers that allowing full DTD functionality without the Same Origin Policy or Access-Control would allow cross-site data leakage
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  642. # [17:56] <gsnedders> hsivonen: how?
  643. # [17:57] <hsivonen> gsnedders: yeah. I had thought about many bad sides of DTDs but not external parsed entities (or sensitive entities in general)
  644. # [17:58] <hsivonen> gsnedders: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=22942#c103
  645. # [18:01] * hsivonen is amused by "(Non-normative) <cite>Inter Gravissimas</cite>, A. Lilius, C. Clavius. Gregory XIII Papal Bulls, February 1582."
  646. # [18:07] <hsivonen> at least the Microsoft partner is acknowledging the existence of the top four browsers in the lower left corner: http://www.fontembedding.com/
  647. # [18:15] * Philip` wonders why Rob Burns thinks XML requires documents to have a doctype
  648. # [18:18] <takkaria> it's all about how you read the spec
  649. # [18:18] <hsivonen> takkaria: you mean like it's all a point of view? :-)
  650. # [18:18] <Philip`> I read it by opening the spec and searching for all mentions of "doctype" and "document type" and trying to find anything that indicates you must have one, and entirely failing
  651. # [18:19] <takkaria> hsivonen: well, in his field, he must argue a lot about how to best read a text; about the author's intentions, and such. and also what the most useful reading of a text would be
  652. # [18:19] <Philip`> I suppose you could read it by not actually reading it, and just knowing what it's surely meant to say, and if it turns out that's not what it says then the spec must be wrong
  653. # [18:19] <takkaria> when you get into literary theory, not even a good spec is straightforward. :)
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The end :)