/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2008-11-23 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Nov 23 00:00:00 2008
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  5. # [00:15] <Lachy> "It is easy to make the case that the general video uploader would find it an undue hardship to caption their videos. Undue hardship is a legitimate exemption in every relevant piece of legislation. So let’s assume that you the video uploader wouldn’t have to do it. Fine.
  6. # [00:15] <Lachy> "But what about your host? Google could afford to do it for you, though they wouldn’t want to. Should they have to?"
  7. # [00:15] <Lachy> http://www.alistapart.com/comments/thisishowthewebgetsregulated?page=1#10
  8. # [00:15] <Lachy> Clearly, Joe Clark doesn't have a clue about just how much video content is uploaded to YouTube and Google Video
  9. # [00:16] <Lachy> last I heard, it was something like 10 minutes worth of video uploaded every minute
  10. # [00:17] <Lachy> somehow I think captioning 240 hours of video every day would be impossible for any organisation
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  12. # [00:22] <Philip`> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7730679.stm - "13 hours every minute"
  13. # [00:22] <Philip`> You're off by a few orders of magnitude :-)
  14. # [00:28] <Lachy> woah
  15. # [00:29] <Philip`> They must have quite a few servers doing video transcoding
  16. # [00:30] <Philip`> It would work fine if Google just farmed out the captioning jobs to the Amazon Mechanical Turk
  17. # [00:31] <Philip`> Offer $0.02 to caption a minute of video, and it'll only cost ~$8M/year
  18. # [00:33] <Lachy> yeah, cause captioning 1 minute of video would take someone about 10-15 minutes worth of work for an expert (including transcribing it and syncing up the text, etc.) and someone's time is really only worth $0.10/hour anyway
  19. # [00:35] <jgraham> I'm not sure you could find ~10,000 people to caption video for that much
  20. # [00:35] <Philip`> These are not just "someone" - they're someone who's decided to scrounge for money on Mechanical Turk, so they're not going to have very high expectations
  21. # [00:36] <jgraham> Even if you could pay 100 times that, which would make the cost prohibitive
  22. # [00:36] <Philip`> And Google could cut down the work hugely by detecting videos with pretty much the same audio track as others, since they're mostly songs or clips from TV shows posted a zillion times
  23. # [00:37] <Philip`> and you don't really need to get a thousand people to independently caption Rick Astley if you can figure out that the repeats
  24. # [00:37] <Lachy> Google should just develop speech recognition and produce captions on the fly
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  26. # [00:38] <Philip`> Hmm, but those would only be subtitles and not captions
  27. # [00:39] <svl> Google should just heal every possible kind of auditory impairment people could suffer from, so captioning wouldn't be necessary anymore.
  28. # [00:39] <Lachy> except for people who need to keep the volume turned down low for some reason
  29. # [00:39] <jgraham> I wonder what fraction of the content on youtube is duplicates
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  31. # [00:40] * Philip` has probably already mentioned several times that he played Portal with no speakers or headphones, and its captioning worked pretty nicely
  32. # [00:41] <Philip`> (complete with textual versions of gameplay-relevant sound effects)
  33. # [00:44] * jgraham wonders why Rob Sayre thinks that his issue with the parser spec indicates a faliure of process
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  35. # [00:50] <Philip`> It seems he is saying that since it is not perfect, that invalidates claims that the way it is written is better than other ways
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  37. # [00:54] <Lachy> he must be completely ignoring the fact that in its current state, it's still better than the state of any other prior spec written using alternative methods
  38. # [00:54] <Philip`> http://philip.html5.org/misc/portal-caption.jpg
  39. # [00:55] <Philip`> although, oddly, the audio says "and then there will be" in place of "[garbled]"
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  63. # [03:34] <sayrer> jgraham, all I meant was that it's not stable
  64. # [03:36] <sayrer> "the parsing work is stable to the extent that it can be without having implementations in major-marketshare browsers"
  65. # [03:36] <sayrer> I do not think this is true
  66. # [03:37] <sayrer> and if someone wanted to work on that piece as a separate document, that might be reasonable
  67. # [03:37] <sayrer> not automatically dismissed with something along the lines of "our way is the best way, move along"
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  85. # [04:30] <sayrer> hmm, looks like html5lib doesn't parse the contents of the noscript element
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  87. # [04:36] <Hixie> i don't understand this interest in splitting out html5 using this new scheme
  88. # [04:36] <Hixie> i've never seen a spec do this before
  89. # [04:37] <Hixie> (the "implementation" vs "authoring" split that some people want)
  90. # [04:38] <sayrer> that one doesn't make much sense to me either. DOM initialization vs. post DOM initialization is more sensible (parser/script dependencies notwithstanding). another more sensible split would be old stuff vs. new stuff
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  92. # [04:43] <Hixie> sayrer: which "consistency and stability claims" are overblown and how are they overblown?
  93. # [04:44] <Hixie> sayrer: also, how is the HTML5 change control unsatisfactory?
  94. # [04:45] <sayrer> Hixie, well jgraham is claiming that the parser section is so stable that nothing further can happen without major browser implementation
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  97. # [04:45] <sayrer> yet html5lib doesn't even do what the spec says regarding noscript
  98. # [04:45] <Hixie> sayrer: i doubt he thinks that _nothing_ further can happen
  99. # [04:46] <sayrer> "the parsing work is stable to the extent that it can be without having implementations in major-marketshare browsers"
  100. # [04:46] <Hixie> but it's certainly true that we're mostly just waiting for wide-scale implementation experience
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  102. # [04:46] <Hixie> well that's true
  103. # [04:46] <Hixie> it's as stable as it can ever be without wide-scale implementation experience
  104. # [04:46] <Hixie> that doesn't mean nothing further can happen
  105. # [04:46] <Hixie> even a completely stable spec can change
  106. # [04:47] <Hixie> just not much
  107. # [04:47] <Hixie> even a shipped product (the epitomy of stable) can change, e.g. security fixes
  108. # [04:47] <Hixie> CSS2 was as stable as it gets, yet look at the amount of change _it_ went through
  109. # [04:49] <sayrer> just saying there's an obvious delta between the spec and a library that most major html5 contributors have commit access to
  110. # [04:49] <Hixie> so?
  111. # [04:50] <sayrer> surprised it could happen
  112. # [04:50] <Hixie> really?
  113. # [04:50] <Hixie> dude, all software has bugs
  114. # [04:50] <Hixie> all specs have bugs
  115. # [04:50] <sayrer> well, surprised it's never even been noticed
  116. # [04:50] <Hixie> i hate to be the one to break it to you
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  119. # [04:52] <Hixie> sayrer: also, how is the HTML5 change control unsatisfactory?
  120. # [04:52] <sayrer> Hixie, I don't like the explicit private feedback challenges
  121. # [04:52] <sayrer> er
  122. # [04:52] <sayrer> channels
  123. # [04:53] <Hixie> yeah, nor do i
  124. # [04:53] <sayrer> like, I am guessing you did not invent MessagePort
  125. # [04:53] <sayrer> maybe I am wrong about that
  126. # [04:53] <Hixie> sadly, some people don't want to say anything in public because their products are secret, or whatnot
  127. # [04:53] <Hixie> invent how?
  128. # [04:53] <sayrer> it was quite different from the Apple and Mozilla proposals as I recall
  129. # [04:54] <Hixie> proposals for what?
  130. # [04:54] <Hixie> do you mean the worker stuff?
  131. # [04:54] <sayrer> yeah
  132. # [04:54] <Hixie> workers are unrelated to messageport really
  133. # [04:54] <Hixie> though i did reuse them for that purpose since it seemed useful
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  135. # [04:55] <sayrer> well, at any rate, I never proposed a course of action
  136. # [04:55] <Hixie> (messageport though, the api, was basically something i wrote up based on a series of proposals related to capabilities APIs through messages)
  137. # [04:55] <sayrer> I just don't think other editorial splits are obviously bad
  138. # [04:56] <Hixie> oh some are definitely good
  139. # [04:56] <Hixie> like we should split out the storage stuff eventually
  140. # [04:56] <sayrer> especially if someone is willing to do a document
  141. # [04:56] <Hixie> since that's pretty self-contained
  142. # [04:56] <sayrer> even if you don't suggest it
  143. # [04:56] <sayrer> anyway, gtg
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  145. # [04:56] <Hixie> later
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  164. # [08:04] <Hixie> there's no way to install ubuntu that doesn't require installing X?
  165. # [08:07] <hdh> i hear the server edition doesn't install X
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  167. # [08:10] <Hixie> man that's hard to see on their site
  168. # [08:11] <Hixie> thanks
  169. # [08:11] <Hixie> that's what i want
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  189. # [12:09] <jgraham> Yeah, we should probably have provided feedback from html5lib that we wanted to (at least optionally) behave like a scripting UA even with no scripting support
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  193. # [12:57] <takkaria> Hubbub has a scripting/no-scripting flag too
  194. # [13:03] <Dashiva> I wonder how much all this noise about reaching rec faster is contributing to slowing down rec :)
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  200. # [13:33] <gsnedders> SNOW!
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  209. # [16:29] <maikmerten> Question about the media API: Seeking works by setting currentTime to a new value (in seconds). Is there a special reason why currentTime isn't readonly and seeking works e.g. with a method seek(), taking a relative value (zero to one), which would cover the case when the duration of the stream isn't known (but it's filesize is) and rough seeking shall still be available.
  210. # [16:29] <maikmerten> s/./?
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  212. # [16:30] <maikmerten> (there are media formats without a header containing duration, so all you got is the byte position if the client shouldn't try to find a timestamp at the end of the bytestream)
  213. # [16:31] <gsnedders> zero to one relative to the filesize?
  214. # [16:31] <gsnedders> (seeming the length isn't known)
  215. # [16:32] <maikmerten> yeah, if the duration in "proper time" isn't known one can still seek to an approximate position using the position of the bytestream
  216. # [16:33] <maikmerten> this, however, only works if seeking is not taking absolute time. The client can then find a fitting representation
  217. # [16:34] <maikmerten> if duration is known: Seek to the position (in seconds or whatever)
  218. # [16:34] <maikmerten> if only the length of the bytestream is known: Well, just jump to a position in there
  219. # [16:35] <maikmerten> I'm currently trying to implement a subset of the HTML5 media specs for a Java playback applet, which only knows bytepositions and thus always seeks relative
  220. # [16:37] <maikmerten> I *could* estimate the total duration in seconds given the current byteposition and the current timestamp the media stream has
  221. # [16:38] <maikmerten> but that means the duration will change during playback (and given how dynamic video bitrate is this estimate can be like 1000% off)
  222. # [16:38] <maikmerten> (the estimate will first be horrible and be more accurate at the end)
  223. # [16:39] <maikmerten> this isn't just specific to this applet thingie, but for some formats the clients really have to seek to the end of the file and find a timestamp befor the duration is known
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  225. # [16:40] <nessy> it's why doublec has asked for a duration attribute
  226. # [16:40] <maikmerten> ah, I see :)
  227. # [16:40] <maikmerten> same solution as for my applet ;-)
  228. # [16:40] <nessy> not sure it will come though - and whether it's a good solution, because not every author may include that info
  229. # [16:40] <maikmerten> most won't
  230. # [16:41] <nessy> yeah, so the estimate is probably the best you can do
  231. # [16:41] <maikmerten> quite frankly I'd hope that currentTime would be currentPosition, which can either be seconds *or* byte position
  232. # [16:41] <maikmerten> and a flag indicating what it is
  233. # [16:41] <maikmerten> same for duration
  234. # [16:42] <maikmerten> but this smells like a hack
  235. # [16:42] <nessy> or a value marker (e.g. sec,B)
  236. # [16:42] * BenMillard has radically simplified his Public-HTML message filter: it now marks everything without me in either the To or CC line as Read.
  237. # [16:42] <maikmerten> right
  238. # [16:43] <nessy> well, width/height take pixels, em and other entities, too
  239. # [16:43] <nessy> why not currentPosition
  240. # [16:43] <Philip`> BenMillard: You could simply unsubscribe from the group :-)
  241. # [16:43] <maikmerten> http://people.xiph.org/~maikmerten/demos/bigbuckbunny-applet.html <-- applet without duration given. Will still allow seeking (relative to byteposition) and display a progress bar (also byteposition). Works out okay in practice
  242. # [16:43] <nessy> yeah
  243. # [16:43] <nessy> write an email to the list suggesting this, I'd say
  244. # [16:44] * nessy has to get some sleep
  245. # [16:44] <maikmerten> sweet dreams!
  246. # [16:44] <maikmerten> and yeah, will write a mail
  247. # [16:44] <nessy> yeah - 2:30am here :)
  248. # [16:44] <nessy> cool, cya
  249. # [16:44] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-171-15-183.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  250. # [16:45] <BenMillard> Philip`, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Jul/0096.html
  251. # [16:46] <gsnedders> BenMillard: Lazy so and so
  252. # [16:46] <hsivonen> Lachy: FWIW, .srt goes almost all the way considering the feature set of subtitling in Northern Europe (it lacks italics and placing text sometimes at the top of the frame)
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  255. # [17:00] <BenMillard> jgraham, it seems column headers are applied to the column headers on their right and row headers are applied to the rows below them in the HTML5 (November 2008) mode: http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.py?input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fprojectcerbera.com%2Fblog%2F2008%2F09%2Funtangle&source=&algorithm=html5b
  256. # [17:01] <BenMillard> Step 1.5.5 and Step 1.5.10 seem to be the parts of HTML5 which are supposed to prevent that, by block associations coming from headers of the same height or width (depending on the axis)
  257. # [17:01] <BenMillard> s/block/blocking/
  258. # [17:02] <BenMillard> (re: the "steps" in here: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/tabular-data.html#header-and-data-cell-semantics)
  259. # [17:08] <BenMillard> jgraham, only highlighting when clicking around a table makes checking the associations a dream
  260. # [17:10] <BenMillard> jgraham, Smart Headers works correctly across column headers and down row headers: http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.py?input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fprojectcerbera.com%2Fblog%2F2008%2F09%2Funtangle&source=&algorithm=smartheaders
  261. # [17:16] <maikmerten> (my proposals on relative seeking: http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2008-November/017387.html )
  262. # [17:17] <maikmerten> (oh, nessy did leave the room)
  263. # [17:22] <jgraham> BenMillard: OK, I will have a look at what I did wrong
  264. # [17:27] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@72.14.224.1)
  265. # [17:29] <jgraham> BenMillard: Does that do what you expect now?
  266. # [17:36] <BenMillard> jgraham, that fixes the bug I reported without regressions in the data cells
  267. # [17:37] <jgraham> BenMillard: I had forgotten to prevent header cells from ever forming associations
  268. # [17:37] <BenMillard> right, so in HTML5 headers don't associate with headers, ever, even when they have different spans and are next to each other?
  269. # [17:38] <BenMillard> (that's my reading of HTML5, btw, which your inspector now follows perfectly)
  270. # [17:38] <jgraham> I believe that is correct
  271. # [17:39] <gsnedders> Why can we not have headers associating with headers?
  272. # [17:39] <BenMillard> gsnedders, I think HTML5 will change in this respect (Smart Headers has always allowed header cells to have header cells)
  273. # [17:40] <jgraham> gsnedders: Hixie doesn't think that it makes sense for some reason I always forget
  274. # [17:40] <gsnedders> jgraham: silly Hixie.
  275. # [17:40] <jgraham> I think he is worried about UI issues (too much information being reported)
  276. # [17:41] <jgraham> But I think removing that information is premature optimisation and that UAs should be free to compete on which of the associations they read out in different circumstances
  277. # [17:42] <jgraham> e.g. travelling across a table they might only read the headers that changed, but on a keypress might read everything
  278. # [17:42] <BenMillard> jgraham, indeed
  279. # [17:42] <jgraham> Which I think largely eliminates the problem
  280. # [17:43] <BenMillard> in particular, it's needed when there are multiple levels of header cells and the lower levels have repetitve text which is disambiguated by the upper levels. such as: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2007Aug/att-0003/offset-mess.htm
  281. # [17:44] <BenMillard> in HTML5, reading across level 2 of the column headers doesn't report whether you are in the "Quirks Mode" or "Standards Mode" section of the table: http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.py?input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fwww-archive%2F2007Aug%2Fatt-0003%2Foffset-mess.htm&source=&algorithm=html5b
  282. # [17:44] <BenMillard> (similarly, level 3 doesn't report whether you are in <body> or <html> for either "Quirks Mode" or "Standards Mode")
  283. # [17:45] <BenMillard> in Smart Headers, the headers do associate with each other (so, for example, a user could query the final "scroll" to header "Standards Mode, <html>" which disambiguates where they are): http://james.html5.org/tables/table_inspector.py?input_type=type_uri&uri=http%3A%2F%2Flists.w3.org%2FArchives%2FPublic%2Fwww-archive%2F2007Aug%2Fatt-0003%2Foffset-mess.htm&source=&algorithm=smartheaders
  284. # [17:45] <BenMillard> s/to header/to hear/
  285. # [17:48] <BenMillard> (I discussed this with Hixie over IRC a couple of months ago, which is why I think it will change: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20080926#l-238)
  286. # [17:48] <BenMillard> gsnedders, ^^^
  287. # [17:52] * Joins: Mustafa51 (n=mustafa@122.164.152.47)
  288. # [17:53] <BenMillard> perhaps I should include a diagram to explain the terminology my comparison document uses
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  295. # [19:18] <Hixie> maikmerten: the browser is required to work out the duration
  296. # [19:18] * Joins: smerp (n=smerp@cpe-066-057-061-202.nc.res.rr.com)
  297. # [19:19] <maikmerten> Hixie, that is a pretty heavy requirement
  298. # [19:20] <Hixie> yup
  299. # [19:20] <maikmerten> heh :)
  300. # [19:21] <maikmerten> what about concatenated files?
  301. # [19:21] <maikmerten> seeking to "the end" once is a reasonable requirement, I guess
  302. # [19:22] <maikmerten> I just wonder what to do in the nastier cases
  303. # [19:22] <maikmerten> (x files concatened, total duration would have to determined by determining "the end" for each segments, basically meaning a binary search for each)
  304. # [19:23] <maikmerten> oh the nastyness of media containers - seeking tables in the headers suck, not having those suck, too ;)
  305. # [19:28] <Hixie> you have to work out the time corresponding to the start and end of every set of bytes you have
  306. # [19:28] <Hixie> to populate the bufferedTimes attribute
  307. # [19:33] <maikmerten> pretty ambitious, but if all browser vendors implement this properly this'll be pretty cool stuff
  308. # [19:33] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@207.59.145.201)
  309. # [19:36] <maikmerten> anyway, one question about API design. I have no doubt it has received considerable... consideration. Why are some actions (let's take seeking) triggered by altering an attribute, while others (starting playback etc) are methods?
  310. # [19:44] <Hixie> play() does more than set paused to false
  311. # [19:44] <Hixie> it might also call load()
  312. # [19:45] <Hixie> which is why it's a method
  313. # [19:45] <Hixie> currentTime just seeks and sets currentTime
  314. # [19:50] <maikmerten> hmmm... won't it also alter other things? The video stops while the buffers need to be refilled etc. etc.
  315. # [19:50] <maikmerten> but anyway, I assume this just doesn't matter
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  321. # [19:59] <Hixie> it's not a great worry to me, no :-)
  322. # [20:00] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  323. # [20:16] <maikmerten> :)
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  348. # [22:24] <BenMillard> just noticed this in my feeds: http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/11/w3c_validator_now_with_html5.html
  349. # [22:25] <BenMillard> the "More Options" link opens an area with a "Document Type" dropdown, where "HTML5 (experimental)" is the 2nd option: http://validator.w3.org/#validate_by_uri+with_options
  350. # [22:26] <KrocCamen> http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fcamendesign.com&charset=(detect+automatically)&doctype=Inline&group=0 :)
  351. # [22:28] <BenMillard> krijnh, parentheses inside a URI works better in the logs than in Opera. well done B)
  352. # [22:29] <BenMillard> KrocCamen, I think this one is more interesting: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fprivacy.html&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&group=0&user-agent=W3C_Validator%2F1.606
  353. # [22:30] <KrocCamen> It’s only HTML5 by doctype though.
  354. # [22:30] <KrocCamen> No section / header / footer tags &c.
  355. # [22:31] <KrocCamen> Everybody should switch to the HTML5 doctype really though. I’m never writing another HTML4 site again, even if I don’t use HTML5 tags in order to support IE (which my site doesn’t).
  356. # [22:31] <BenMillard> KrocCamen, it's still conforming HTML5 on a google.com property :)
  357. # [22:31] <KrocCamen> Many of the Mozillians and W3C editors are at Google.
  358. # [22:31] <KrocCamen> Now Microsoft - that’s a different story
  359. # [22:31] <KrocCamen> Silverlight Ahoy!
  360. # [22:33] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  361. # [22:35] <BenMillard> KrocCamen, you wrote "For a 12 year old piece of software, the VB6 IDE still does it for me. Pure bliss." and I totally, if rather guiltily, agree! :D (http://camendesign.com/tweet/vb6-ide)
  362. # [22:36] <KrocCamen> It’s an odd piece of software. Not much software ages well.
  363. # [22:37] <KrocCamen> Everything else from that era is unusable. TextMate might age quite well. It is perfectly usuable and doesn’t need to do anything more.
  364. # [22:38] <BenMillard> the syntax highlighting is very conservative and all the better for it; the auto-indention does what I expect; I use Shift+F2 all the time; setting tab orders in the Forms view Works with a big W
  365. # [22:38] * gsnedders dislikes TextMate
  366. # [22:38] * gsnedders can never remember why
  367. # [22:38] <BenMillard> (my comment was about the VB6 IDE, btw)
  368. # [22:38] <gsnedders> Whenever I try it I like for around five minutes, then get really annoyed at it
  369. # [22:39] <KrocCamen> Hmm Mac text editors are important to users. It’s not like Windows where everything sucks equally.
  370. # [22:39] <KrocCamen> People rag on about BBedit, and I can’t personally bear it.
  371. # [22:39] <gsnedders> Urgh
  372. # [22:39] <gsnedders> BBEdit was good on OS 9
  373. # [22:39] * jgraham couldn't get the indentation to work in textmate
  374. # [22:39] <gsnedders> But now, it still seems as if it should be in BBEdit
  375. # [22:40] <gsnedders> *OS 9
  376. # [22:40] * gsnedders is too tired
  377. # [22:40] <BenMillard> I eventually cobbled together my own MDI text editor in VB6 so I could see how hard it is to make a text editor I like...turns out to be harder than I thought
  378. # [22:40] <jgraham> First rule of text editors: Unless you indent as well as emacs it is really hard for me to like you
  379. # [22:40] <BenMillard> especially since I'm plain awful at programming :P
  380. # [22:40] <KrocCamen> Before I switched to Mac, I used my own text editor for four years because I couldn’t find anything adequate, commercial or not, on Windows.
  381. # [22:42] <KrocCamen> There’s a feature I had though, that I’ve never seen in any other editor, and that I still pine for in TextMate.
  382. # [22:42] <KrocCamen> --Split Folder / File view.
  383. # [22:43] <KrocCamen> Screenshot here http://camendesign.com/InlineASP.png
  384. # [22:44] <jgraham> Just the directory tree thing on the left?
  385. # [22:45] <jgraham> Isn't that quite common?
  386. # [22:45] <BenMillard> (that Google Privacy page uses <meta charset="utf-8"> as well as <doctype html>, omitting a lot tags which are also optional in HTML4)
  387. # [22:45] <KrocCamen> Yeah. If a folder contains 1’000 files, you don’t want the folder tree that far apart.
  388. # [22:46] <gsnedders> jgraham: I could never get into emacs or vim. Both are just horrid for a UX POV
  389. # [22:46] <KrocCamen> I’ve never seen it in another editor. It’s always combined folder/file view.
  390. # [22:46] <jgraham> Oh, I see you mean the way that the files are shown below the directories rather than in the same tree
  391. # [22:47] <BenMillard> KrocCarmen, I don't see the point in that. Windows Explorer provides that, from which you can drag and drop multiple files, folders, mixtures of both, etc
  392. # [22:47] <jgraham> gsnedders: emacs may not be pretty and may have weird keyboard shortcuts but it has awesome functionality and I am only a very trivial user
  393. # [22:47] <KrocCamen> It’s different in a web project, really. I used it for four years and I swear by it.
  394. # [22:49] <jgraham> gsnedders: For example the indentation in python-mode is better than anything else I have ever tried, AucTeX is the only thing that makes writing LaTeX bearable, js2 mode is wonderful
  395. # [22:50] <jgraham> This makes up for the weird modal interface and all the things that make UI people cry
  396. # [22:50] <jgraham> I have ever learnt more vi than how to quit it when I accidentially launch it though :)
  397. # [22:51] * gsnedders just uses Ctrl + C to quit vim :)
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  400. # [22:57] <jgraham> BenMillard: Do you have an eta on the tables comparison thing?
  401. # [22:58] <jgraham> (don't worry if not, I'm just interested)
  402. # [22:59] <BenMillard> jgraham, my deadline is 1st December 2008
  403. # [23:00] <BenMillard> I expect to make it available before then so I gather feedback and correct it
  404. # [23:00] <jgraham> BenMillard: OK. I may not be around much next week, epecially at the end but if you email me and I see it, I will have a look
  405. # [23:01] <jgraham> (assuming you are interested in my feedback of course :)
  406. # [23:03] <BenMillard> jgraham, of course I am!
  407. # [23:03] <BenMillard> jgraham, by next week do you mean the next 7 days, or the 7 days after that?
  408. # [23:03] <BenMillard> s/next 7 days/next 6 days/
  409. # [23:03] <jgraham> I mean the 7 days leading up to the 1st
  410. # [23:03] <jgraham> I should have said this week :)
  411. # [23:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: that's still ambiguous
  412. # [23:04] <BenMillard> jgraham, in that case I'll throw it online right now (in it's very rough state) so you can take a look
  413. # [23:04] <jgraham> Well the week starts on a Sunday, right?
  414. # [23:04] <gsnedders> jgraham: Depends who you ask :)
  415. # [23:04] * jgraham expects gsnedders to quote some ISO standard at him now
  416. # [23:05] <gsnedders> ISO 8601 defines what first day of the week is
  417. # [23:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: ISO weeks start on Monday
  418. # [23:06] <jgraham> Yeah, I just looked that up...
  419. # [23:06] * gsnedders just looked that up too
  420. # [23:06] <hsivonen> It's confusing when airline or hotel booking UIs use non-ISO weeks
  421. # [23:07] <gsnedders> I might not know what the standard says, but I know what standard to look at :P
  422. # [23:07] <jgraham> OK, Ben, I will not be around much at the end of the nex ISO 8601 week
  423. # [23:07] <gsnedders> :D
  424. # [23:07] <jgraham> is that clear? :)
  425. # [23:07] <hsivonen> (when the UI has a date picker with a week per row)
  426. # [23:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: I guess :P
  427. # [23:08] <jgraham> hsivonen: Week starts Sunday is common in colloquial usage in the UK
  428. # [23:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: No, it isn't.
  429. # [23:08] <jgraham> gsnedders: Yes it is
  430. # [23:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: It's common in England. I can tell you Scotland is different.
  431. # [23:08] <hsivonen> jgraham: then your colloquial usage is non-conforming :-)
  432. # [23:09] * Joins: smerp (n=smerp@cpe-066-057-061-202.nc.res.rr.com)
  433. # [23:09] <jgraham> gsnedders: In Scotland men wear what, and let's not beat about the bush here, is effectively a skirt
  434. # [23:09] <jgraham> so I'm not sure your opinion counts for much
  435. # [23:09] <jgraham> ;)
  436. # [23:09] <gsnedders> It is not!
  437. # [23:09] <hsivonen> on a more serious note, the really crazy part is that there are countries whose week numbering is non-conforming to ISO 8601
  438. # [23:10] * jgraham has a Scotish father
  439. # [23:10] <jgraham> Now non-conforming week numbering would indeed suck
  440. # [23:10] <Dashiva> hsivonen: Well, we wouldn't need two ways if nobody used the other way
  441. # [23:10] * gsnedders has a Scottish grandfather
  442. # [23:11] <jgraham> Although week numbering strikes me as decidedly odd anyway
  443. # [23:11] <hsivonen> my parents had to deal with a Portuguese company that made up their own week numbers, which sucked
  444. # [23:11] <BenMillard> jgraham, gave you the link (it's not ready for public review yet)
  445. # [23:11] <jgraham> BenMillard: Thanks :)
  446. # [23:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: http://flickr.com/photos/jgraham/3053429409/ — That's awesome
  447. # [23:13] <jgraham> gsnedders: I had forgotten that I had just uploaded those
  448. # [23:13] <gsnedders> :D
  449. # [23:13] <jgraham> I need to write descriptions
  450. # [23:13] <jgraham> :)
  451. # [23:13] <gsnedders> Needless to say, it is still awesome
  452. # [23:15] <jgraham> Thanks :)
  453. # [23:16] * Quits: heycam` (n=cam@210-84-43-45.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
  454. # [23:17] <hsivonen> jgraham: are you still in NZ?
  455. # [23:19] * Quits: smerp (n=smerp@cpe-066-057-061-202.nc.res.rr.com)
  456. # [23:24] <jgraham> hsivonen: No, sadly not
  457. # [23:24] * jgraham is just being rather slow at uploading photos
  458. # [23:25] * gsnedders has been going through photos from August today
  459. # [23:30] * Quits: JohnResig (n=JohnResi@74.201.254.36) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
  460. # [23:31] * Joins: JohnResig (n=JohnResi@74.201.254.36)
  461. # [23:32] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  462. # [23:33] * Joins: sverrej (n=sverrej@cm-84.208.153.202.getinternet.no)
  463. # [23:33] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
  464. # [23:34] <hsivonen> http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/11/21/ie-6-now-coming-to-a-cell-phone-near-you/
  465. # [23:38] <KrocCamen> It’s almost like they’re unaware of the iPhone.
  466. # [23:38] <jgraham> Interesting. I guess it might not be popular enough for people to target it
  467. # [23:38] <jgraham> So there may be no practical effect
  468. # [23:38] <gsnedders> http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2008/11/11/internet-explorer-mobile-6.aspx which is what that cites says no such thing
  469. # [23:39] <hsivonen> gsnedders: http://blogs.msdn.com/windowsmobile/archive/2008/11/11/internet-explorer-mobile-6.aspx#9063740
  470. # [23:39] <KrocCamen> If anybody were to enter the mobile IE team’s office with an iPhone, I think they’d die.
  471. # [23:40] <gsnedders> hsivonen: Nowhere does it say that it is based on WinIE6
  472. # [23:40] <KrocCamen> Why would anybody make that assumption? Mobile IE is a different product.
  473. # [23:41] <hsivonen> gsnedders: well, the comment I linked to sure implies that it's mainly IE6-based except for some components of which jscript is mentioned specifically as coming from IE8
  474. # [23:41] <KrocCamen> That’s like saying Opera Mini 4 is based on Opera v4.
  475. # [23:41] <gsnedders> hsivonen: I don't read it like that
  476. # [23:41] <hsivonen> KrocCamen: rumor has it that the currently shipping Mobile IE is based on Desktop IE 4
  477. # [23:41] <hsivonen> which is really sad
  478. # [23:41] <jgraham> KrocCamen: http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10039152-56.html says it is based on IE6, which seems to be the source cited for that claim
  479. # [23:42] <KrocCamen> It would make sense in a way. IE4 was a major structural stabilisation of IE for modern content.
  480. # [23:42] <jgraham> s/ KrocCamen / gsnedders /
  481. # [23:45] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
  482. # [23:45] <hsivonen> gsnedders: if it isn't based on IE6, the naming is a huge PR blunder
  483. # [23:45] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
  484. # [23:45] <gsnedders> Yeah, totally.
  485. # [23:45] <KrocCamen> IE Mobile Explorer Pro Win 2008 Version.
  486. # [23:45] <KrocCamen> Totally.
  487. # [23:47] <KrocCamen> Spot-quiz. Name one good Microsoft product name.
  488. # [23:47] <BenMillard> I've used Mobile IE and it's less capable than IE6
  489. # [23:47] <jgraham> Word
  490. # [23:47] <doublec> Bob
  491. # [23:47] <BenMillard> Messenger
  492. # [23:47] <KrocCamen> That’s just generic, it’s not a name.
  493. # [23:47] <BenMillard> Explorer
  494. # [23:47] <BenMillard> oh...
  495. # [23:48] <hsivonen> Word, Excel, Windows, Internet Explorer seem like great product names
  496. # [23:48] <BenMillard> so what's the name of Explorer?
  497. # [23:48] <jgraham> The success that Microsoft has had in taking generic words and turning them into trademarks is astonishing
  498. # [23:48] <hsivonen> particularly Word, Windows and Internet Explorer
  499. # [23:48] <hsivonen> jgraham: indeed
  500. # [23:48] <KrocCamen> A good name is a brand of it’s own that people feel a affinity to. Firefox is one modern hero for example.
  501. # [23:48] <jgraham> I think windows less so, but word and internet explorer for sure
  502. # [23:49] <KrocCamen> Internet Explorer is a job description, not name XD
  503. # [23:49] <jgraham> Internet Explorer makes people think that the Blue E is the same as The Internet
  504. # [23:49] <KrocCamen> It may as well be called "Internet Browser". Or "The Blue E".
  505. # [23:50] * hsivonen has wondered if Windows XP was meant to subliminally exploit the brand image of Jesus
  506. # [23:50] <jgraham> I think Powerpoint is likely also a good name although it does sound like it came out of a focus group
  507. # [23:51] <jgraham> hsivonen: ?
  508. # [23:51] <KrocCamen> I’ll give you that one Powerpoint is a reasonably good name. Excel too.
  509. # [23:51] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_Rho
  510. # [23:52] <BenMillard> jgraham, an ex-girlfriend who used Firefox would say things like "wow...the Internet takes ages to start these days" so I think that's a mental model problem rather than a triump of branding :)
  511. # [23:52] * Joins: svl (n=me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl)
  512. # [23:53] <jgraham> hsivonen: Ah. World religions would not be my chosen topic on Mastermind
  513. # [23:53] <jgraham> :)
  514. # [23:53] <jgraham> BenMillard: Sure, but having "Internet" in the name must help surely
  515. # [23:54] <KrocCamen> Mental model is spot on. If anything, these brands and names are the problem.
  516. # [23:54] <KrocCamen> The LISA just had "text editor", it was more document centric than application centric.
  517. # [23:55] <KrocCamen> A truly good OS/UI wouldn’t have applications, it’d have psuedo applications via folder views.
  518. # [23:55] <KrocCamen> In a spatial browser, the "Music" folder would be a music player. The "Pictures" folder would be the picture app. That’s how I would imagine it.
  519. # [23:57] <jgraham> KrocCamen: I have several "Picture" apps and I find the OSX behaviour of trying to have magic folders tied to applications irritating
  520. # [23:57] <KrocCamen> Magic folders? Oh you mean bundles.
  521. # [23:57] <jgraham> So whilst I used to drink the document centric koolaid, I am not sure I am a believer anymore
  522. # [23:57] <KrocCamen> No, I don’t mean bundles that *launch* an app. I mean the folder view is the app. You open Music, and the folder view has extra buttons for play &c.
  523. # [23:57] <jgraham> KrocCamen: I mean things like the iphoto pictures folder
  524. # [23:58] <jgraham> Not the application bundles which are a fine idea
  525. # Session Close: Mon Nov 24 00:00:00 2008

The end :)