/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sun Feb 22 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:32] <annevk> Philip`, that doesn't really seem the right argument against his general point
  5. # [00:33] <annevk> Philip`, it only points out why the syntax doesn't work, not why the idea of having a number there is wrong
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  10. # [01:06] <Lachy> I updated the FAQ's DOCTYPE question. http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_will_the_DOCTYPE_be.3F
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  12. # [01:07] <Lachy> I also added another about when using a DOCTYPE in XHTML is reasonable
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  16. # [01:13] <Dashiva> "and do to retrieve external entities"
  17. # [01:13] <Dashiva> That's not 100% clear to me
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  19. # [01:30] <Lachy> Dashiva, it was supposed to say "do not". Fixed it
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  35. # [04:55] <Hixie> woah, .htaccess <files> sections override ForceType directives in lower .htaccess files
  36. # [04:55] <jcranmer> interesting use of HTML: as a stand in for programming code
  37. # [04:55] <jcranmer> < div classajkhdhsa01f0.aesf4v>
  38. # [04:56] <jcranmer> </div><div classdhnds
  39. # [04:56] <jcranmer> ? Alt ="" Height = " 190" width =" 130
  40. # [04:56] <jcranmer> " Bori![CDATA[fboo
  41. # [04:57] <Hixie> ok i fixed the status-documentation.html thing but boy is that confusing
  42. # [04:57] <Hixie> speaking of confusing
  43. # [04:57] <Hixie> has anyone here read the RDFa processing model implementation requirements?
  44. # [04:58] <Hixie> gsnedders: i use that title="" when regenning the web-socket i-d
  45. # [04:58] <Hixie> gsnedders: and deleting the source file wouldn't really make html5 easier to read, since it would itself get regenned from the working-copy file :-P
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  69. # [09:26] <Hixie> hm, feedback from yahoo
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  72. # [09:55] <Philip`> Hixie: When you say "from yahoo", do you mean "from someone who is using the free Yahoo mail service"?
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  76. # [10:06] <Hixie> Philip`: oh, are @yahoo e-mail addresses not yahoo employees?
  77. # [10:06] <Hixie> oh well
  78. # [10:11] <Philip`> Hixie: No, just users
  79. # [10:19] <gavin_> they use yahooinc.com for corporate addresses, I think
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  82. # [10:32] <jwalden> or yahoo-inc maybe, think it's the latter but am not entirely sure
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  88. # [11:03] * Hixie ponders how to fix the <video> load() problem
  89. # [11:05] <Hixie> namely that <video><source src=a><source src=b></video> doesn't load src=b
  90. # [11:05] <Hixie> if src=a is broken
  91. # [11:05] <Hixie> because when b is inserted, <video> is still checking a
  92. # [11:06] <Hixie> maybe but i've no way of knowing that there is another <source> coming
  93. # [11:06] <Hixie> so i can't wait...
  94. # [11:06] <Hixie> and i can't just run the algorithm again when b comes along, because then a will be fetched twice
  95. # [11:07] <Hixie> let
  96. # [11:07] <Hixie> er
  97. # [11:07] <Hixie> i have the following events:
  98. # [11:07] <Hixie> video created
  99. # [11:07] <Hixie> video inserted
  100. # [11:07] <Hixie> source created
  101. # [11:07] <Hixie> source inserted
  102. # [11:07] <Hixie> src added/changed/removed
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  105. # [11:14] <Hixie> but source could have been inserted by script before another...
  106. # [11:15] <Hixie> if script adds sources, we should probably wait for a load()
  107. # [11:15] <Hixie> but if the parser does it should probably be implied...
  108. # [11:15] <Hixie> hm, assymetry
  109. # [11:17] <Philip`> Can't you make it not start any downloads until reaching the </video>?
  110. # [11:17] <Hixie> there might not be on, consider <span><video><source></span>
  111. # [11:18] <Hixie> one
  112. # [11:18] <Hixie> or <video>EOF
  113. # [11:18] <Philip`> Oh, right
  114. # [11:18] <Hixie> it would be nice to have the parser just be like a script
  115. # [11:19] <Philip`> Can't you make it not start any downloads until the page has finished downloading and parsing and running scripts?
  116. # [11:19] <Hixie> parser inserts video (which might have a src), then inserts sources
  117. # [11:19] <Hixie> we could, but the page might never finish downloading
  118. # [11:19] <Hixie> consider an infinite iframe used for "comet"-like stuff which includes both <script> and <audio> elements
  119. # [11:21] <Philip`> Can't you make it not start any downloads until either reaching the </video> or until the page has finished downloading and parsing and running scripts, whichever comes earliest?
  120. # [11:22] <Hixie> we could but that's not very intuitive
  121. # [11:22] <Hixie> we're trying to make the platform less quirky, not more :-)
  122. # [11:22] <Philip`> (By "</video>" I probably mean "anything that causes the video element to be popped from the stack of open elements", if I remember the parser correctly)
  123. # [11:22] <Hixie> there's no real good place to hook into the parser to do that currently
  124. # [11:23] <Hixie> and i'd really rather not do anything in the parser
  125. # [11:23] <Hixie> <script> has proven that to be a nightmare
  126. # [11:23] <Hixie> it also gets really complicated to redefine it for xml
  127. # [11:23] <Hixie> and it means you can't use DOM manipulation to pretend to be a parser
  128. # [11:23] <Hixie> such as hsivonen's live dom viewer
  129. # [11:24] <Hixie> what would we want to have happen is an author inserts <video>, <source>, <source>, then moves the first source to after the second
  130. # [11:25] <Philip`> Fair enough
  131. # [11:27] <Lachy> wtf? "I develop on Win95a and 98SE [...]." -- http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6606
  132. # [11:29] <Lachy> A developer is the last kind of person I'd expect to be using exremely obsolete software
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  134. # [11:30] * Philip` used Windows 2000 until about 2007, but using 95 today is really going a step too far
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  136. # [11:33] <Hixie> the difficulty is distinguishing between <video><source><source> and <video><source><!-- long delay --><souce>
  137. # [11:34] <Lachy> I'm still using XP, it's nearly 8 years old now too, and I expect I'll still keep it around until Microsoft drops support for it or stops releasing new IE releases for it
  138. # [11:34] <Hixie> i suppose we could get rid of the list of potential media resources
  139. # [11:35] <Hixie> and just have it so that the load() algorithm, once invoked, remembers where it was, and walks down the list of <source> elements...
  140. # [11:35] <Hixie> though if one is removed...
  141. # [11:35] <Hixie> hmm
  142. # [11:36] <Hixie> this may require a rewrite of how media elements load resources
  143. # [11:36] <Hixie> but if we keep it similar enough that shouldn't be a big deal...
  144. # [11:36] * Hixie stops talking to himself and switches to his editor
  145. # [11:38] <Philip`> You have an editor?
  146. # [11:38] <Hixie> emacs
  147. # [11:38] <Philip`> I thought you were doing all the work yourself, not just proxying feedback to the real editor and stealing all the credit for his work
  148. # [11:39] <Hixie> if there was someone else to blame, you can bet i'd be letting them take all the blame
  149. # [11:51] <Hixie> src="" proves problematic even with this system
  150. # [11:51] <Hixie> maybe we need a new NETWORK_ state
  151. # [11:52] <Hixie> NETWORK_EMPTY would mean that nothing is happening yet, and NETWORK_WAITING would mean that the load algorithm is active but has no resource to load
  152. # [11:53] <Hixie> and NETWORK_LOADING would mean that the algorithm is actively trying to load something
  153. # [11:53] <Hixie> NETWORK_NONE, NETWORK_WAITING, NETWORK_LOADING, NETWORK_IDLE, NETWORK_LOADED, maybe?
  154. # [11:53] <Hixie> eh i'm going to bed
  155. # [11:54] <Hixie> nn
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  163. # [13:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: Do you know all cases where you actually mean @title? I've got Anolis working with data-anolis-xref locally
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  170. # [14:31] <yecril71> Lachy! How do you run Internet Explorer on Wine?
  171. # [14:32] <yecril71> Wine is for third-party applications that are SDK-compliant;
  172. # [14:32] <yecril71> Microsoft’s applications are not SDK-compliant.
  173. # [14:33] <yecril71> <!DOCTYPE HTML> triggers HTML5 mode now in W3C’s validator.
  174. # [14:34] <yecril71> I wonder whether it is a good thing.
  175. # [14:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: the marked for extraction markers have a bogus month (00)
  176. # [14:36] <yecril71> krijnh! The log pages should be described as using ISO-8859-1.
  177. # [14:37] <yecril71> Internet Explorer sets the encoding to UTF-8.
  178. # [14:38] <hsivonen> yecril71: why? people are supposed to speak UTF-8 here
  179. # [14:40] <yecril71> But the logs are in ISO.
  180. # [14:41] <yecril71> 8859-1.
  181. # [14:41] <yecril71> So either fix the logs or tag them.
  182. # [14:41] <hsivonen> ‽
  183. # [14:41] <yecril71> The headers says Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 but it is not true.
  184. # [14:42] <yecril71> Your question mark caused my computer to hang for 10 s. :-)
  185. # [14:43] <hsivonen> yecril71: it seems my interrobang was correctly logged as UTF-8 and served without NCRs
  186. # [14:43] <yecril71> But look at Microsoft?s applications above.
  187. # [14:43] <hsivonen> yecril71: are you sure it isn't a problem at your end with your client speaking Windows-1252 instead of UTF-8?
  188. # [14:44] <hsivonen> krijnh: if a line doesn't decode as UTF-8, you should probably decode it as Windows-1252 for robustness. That's what irssi does.
  189. # [14:44] <yecril71> How do I change the output encoding?
  190. # [14:45] <hsivonen> yecril71: do you have irssi?
  191. # [14:46] <yecril71> I have mIRC 6.21
  192. # [14:46] <hsivonen> then I don't know
  193. # [14:46] <Philip`> yecril71: http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page
  194. # [14:47] <Philip`> hsivonen: All the status markers have bogus months (they're counting from 0 instead of 1)
  195. # [14:49] <Philip`> (Perl's localtime function is a bit unintuitive - you have to add 1 to the month and 1900 to the year)
  196. # [14:51] <yecril71> ies4linux says: ‘Tons of e-mails losted’.
  197. # [14:52] <yecril71> With a reflexive hyperlink to make it better :-)
  198. # [14:52] <yecril71> However, Philip`, do you happen to know what the trick behind it would be?
  199. # [14:53] <Philip`> yecril71: I don't think there's any particular trick - it's just IE, and Wine, and everything configured and packed together so it works
  200. # [14:54] <Philip`> http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?versionId=469 describes how to make it work in regular Wine
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  202. # [14:57] <yecril71> Gosh, that page is unreadable.
  203. # [14:59] <krijnh> ?
  204. # [15:00] <krijnh> yecril71: mIRC sucks :)
  205. # [15:00] <Philip`> When I last used mIRC, there were two separate options you had to enable in order to make Unicode work
  206. # [15:01] <Philip`> With irssi I only had to set one configuration option
  207. # [15:01] <Philip`> and a command-line option
  208. # [15:01] <Philip`> and environment variables on two computers
  209. # [15:01] <Philip`> and recompile irssi
  210. # [15:01] <Philip`> but then it worked fine
  211. # [15:02] <yecril71> ROTFL
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  213. # [15:02] <yecril71> krijnh! probably it does, and I am not surprised.
  214. # [15:05] * yecril71 was glad to see <http://browsers.evolt.org/>
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  216. # [15:08] <krijnh> yecril71: I use mIRC as well btw ;)
  217. # [15:09] <krijnh> And I have no idea in what encoding the logfiles are saved
  218. # [15:12] <yecril71> It seems it decides on line-by-line basis between ISO-8859-1 and UTF-8.
  219. # [15:13] <krijnh> That's pretty weird
  220. # [15:14] <yecril71> Or rather CP1252 and CP65001, to be precise.
  221. # [15:15] <krijnh> Simple solution: all of you shouldn't use any weird characters :)
  222. # [15:16] * yecril71 loves curly quotes and non-breaking spaces
  223. # [15:20] * Philip` supposes mIRC just stores the bytes it got from the network
  224. # [15:20] <Philip`> and the network probably just transmits the bytes that clients send it
  225. # [15:20] <Philip`> so if people use stupid clients that don't send UTF-8 then you'll end up with a mixture
  226. # [15:21] <yecril71> See also <http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fkrijnhoetmer.nl%2Firc-logs%2Fwhatwg%2F20090222>
  227. # [15:22] <krijnh> The raw log file: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/zooi/whatwg.20090222.log
  228. # [15:22] <yecril71> Oops, why did it show up in Notepad?
  229. # [15:23] <yecril71> Anyway, publishing unverified third-party content is a mortal sin :-(
  230. # [15:23] <Philip`> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fkrijnhoetmer.nl%2Firc-logs%2Fwhatwg%2F20090222 doesn't complain about any characters
  231. # [15:23] <Philip`> (though you should use data-a and data-r :-) )
  232. # [15:24] <yecril71> Sorry, I am unable to validate this document because on line 217 it contained one or more bytes that I cannot interpret as utf-8
  233. # [15:25] <Philip`> yecril71: Publishing unverified third-party content is perfectly fine, as long as you escape '<' and don't serve it to draconian clients
  234. # [15:25] <yecril71> You should also make sure that the character encoding is correct.
  235. # [15:26] <Philip`> ...and as long as you set the HTTP content type so people don't go all EBCDIC on you
  236. # [15:26] <Philip`> (Er, HTTP content type charset)
  237. # [15:26] <yecril71> Right.
  238. # [15:26] <Philip`> But then it's fine :-)
  239. # [15:26] <krijnh> Sure, I could probably utf-8 encode each line
  240. # [15:27] <krijnh> Add some more overhead to each request
  241. # [15:29] <krijnh> But I think I'll stay a mortal sinner :)
  242. # [15:30] * Philip` suggests not worrying about it - it's exactly what browser-side error correction is for :-)
  243. # [15:31] <jgraham> gsnedders: You here?
  244. # [15:31] <krijnh> I wasn't worrying about it for 2 years now :)
  245. # [15:31] <krijnh> (Wow, time flies!)
  246. # [15:32] <hsivonen> krijnh: not including "Now: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:32:21 +0100 (CET)" at the bottom of old logs would help with date-based searching
  247. # [15:34] <krijnh> Removed
  248. # [15:34] * Philip` wonders if the joke "time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana" can be translated into any language other than English
  249. # [15:35] <krijnh> In Dutch it would be fruitflies
  250. # [15:35] <krijnh> Err
  251. # [15:35] <krijnh> Never mind :)
  252. # [15:35] <hsivonen> krijnh: thanks
  253. # [15:37] <hsivonen> krijnh: it's still at the top. :-) It would help to have the date of the logged day there with year, month and day as tokens that Google considers separate
  254. # [15:37] <krijnh> You only mentioned the bottom of the page ;]
  255. # [15:38] <krijnh> Removed as well
  256. # [15:38] <krijnh> You mean something else than 20090222?
  257. # [15:38] <krijnh> *other
  258. # [15:41] <hsivonen> krijnh: yeah, having 2009, 02 and 22 separated by something that google considers as a word separator
  259. # [15:41] <hsivonen> e.g. hyphen or space
  260. # [15:41] <Philip`> You should be able to search with inurl:20090110..20090112 etc to get date ranges
  261. # [15:42] <Philip`> except it makes Google accuse me of being a virus or spyware
  262. # [15:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: ooh. cool.
  263. # [15:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: accuses me, too. so not cool after all
  264. # [15:43] <hsivonen> today, I started to find the first IRC log mention of a firefox build with the vendor-prefixed canvas text API, but I couldn't find it
  265. # [15:46] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070802#l-107
  266. # [15:47] <yecril71> How should I mark up section date?
  267. # [15:47] <Philip`> based on grepping my offline logs
  268. # [15:47] <yecril71> Section is H2, should the date be inside and styled away?
  269. # [15:47] <Philip`> yecril71: Why do you want to mark up section date?
  270. # [15:47] <yecril71> Customer’s requirement.
  271. # [15:47] <yecril71> He used to do it with TD :-)
  272. # [15:48] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
  273. # [15:48] <Philip`> yecril71: Why do you want to do anything more complex than putting it in <span>?
  274. # [15:48] <yecril71> The natural choice would be INS — but that is invisible.
  275. # [15:48] <yecril71> Should the SPAN be inside the H2?
  276. # [15:49] <Philip`> Is the date a part of the section's heading?
  277. # [15:49] <Philip`> e.g. should it show up in an outline view of the document?
  278. # [15:49] <yecril71> I think it should.
  279. # [15:50] <yecril71> But then, the outline view would really be a TABLE, not a list :-(
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  281. # [16:31] <gsnedders> jgraham: yeah
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  308. # [20:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: I guess you still aren't there
  309. # [20:52] * gsnedders weeps at the loss of jgraham
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  317. # [22:00] <Hixie> ok
  318. # [22:00] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  319. # [22:00] <Hixie> a constant that means that nothing is happening but that changing the .src will be ignored and <source> might be looked at...
  320. # [22:06] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-168-225.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  321. # [22:06] <Hixie> NETWORK_NO_SOURCE.
  322. # [22:22] <erlehmann> can someone point me to the rationale that <ins> should not cross paragraph boundaries?
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  335. # [23:33] * jwalden wonders if any work has been done at getting CSS support for sectioning content and heading levels
  336. # [23:42] * Joins: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1)
  337. # [23:43] <Hixie> jwalden: no need for css support, it can be described in css thus: http://damowmow.com/temp/sectioning.css
  338. # [23:43] * Hixie ducks
  339. # [23:44] <jwalden> sectioning content elements are arbitrarily nestable, tho, but sure, if you can constrain content then it's true
  340. # [23:44] <Hixie> that css file handles the arbitrary nesting
  341. # [23:44] * jwalden is actually doing that on his own site, but not to nearly that depth
  342. # [23:44] <Hixie> i'm not really suggesting browsers do this
  343. # [23:44] <jwalden> and not generically, either
  344. # [23:44] <jwalden> I know
  345. # [23:46] * Joins: svl (n=me@69.Red-88-2-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net)
  346. # [23:46] <Hixie> but theoretically, it means the css specs themselves don't need to change, and the browsers can implement performance hacks like :-moz-any-link
  347. # [23:48] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@vpn-118-138-224-31.its.monash.edu.au)
  348. # [23:49] * Philip` sees that http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=79655 cites Web Apps 1.0, but claims the author is a person named "W. H. A. T. W. Group"
  349. # [23:49] <Philip`> Silly LaTeX trying to initialise people's names :-(
  350. # [23:54] * Philip` tries to work out what the paper is actually about
  351. # [23:58] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  352. # Session Close: Mon Feb 23 00:00:00 2009

The end :)