/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-02-22 / end

Options:

# Session Start: Sun Feb 22 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:21] * Quits: svl (n=me@static-213-115-8-83.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
# [00:32] <annevk> Philip`, that doesn't really seem the right argument against his general point
# [00:33] <annevk> Philip`, it only points out why the syntax doesn't work, not why the idea of having a number there is wrong
# [00:47] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [00:55] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-66-252.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
# [00:56] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
# [00:58] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@203-158-43-109.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [01:06] <Lachy> I updated the FAQ's DOCTYPE question. http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ#What_will_the_DOCTYPE_be.3F
# [01:07] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
# [01:07] <Lachy> I also added another about when using a DOCTYPE in XHTML is reasonable
# [01:09] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [01:12] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
# [01:12] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [01:13] <Dashiva> "and do to retrieve external entities"
# [01:13] <Dashiva> That's not 100% clear to me
# [01:16] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
# [01:30] <Lachy> Dashiva, it was supposed to say "do not". Fixed it
# [01:30] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@adsl-99-140-60-47.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net)
# [01:57] * weinig is now known as weinig|away
# [01:57] * Joins: roc (n=roc@121-72-176-52.dsl.telstraclear.net)
# [02:19] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-158-43-109.dyn.iinet.net.au)
# [02:30] * Quits: weinig|away (n=weinig@adsl-99-140-60-47.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net)
# [03:13] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
# [03:40] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@c211-30-14-178.rivrw2.nsw.optusnet.com.au) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [03:42] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [03:53] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@98.125.217.140)
# [03:57] * Quits: roc (n=roc@121-72-176-52.dsl.telstraclear.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [04:09] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@98.125.217.140)
# [04:12] * Joins: tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [04:22] * Joins: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
# [04:28] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [04:28] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [04:55] <Hixie> woah, .htaccess <files> sections override ForceType directives in lower .htaccess files
# [04:55] <jcranmer> interesting use of HTML: as a stand in for programming code
# [04:55] <jcranmer> < div classajkhdhsa01f0.aesf4v>
# [04:56] <jcranmer> </div><div classdhnds
# [04:56] <jcranmer> ? Alt ="" Height = " 190" width =" 130
# [04:56] <jcranmer> " Bori![CDATA[fboo
# [04:57] <Hixie> ok i fixed the status-documentation.html thing but boy is that confusing
# [04:57] <Hixie> speaking of confusing
# [04:57] <Hixie> has anyone here read the RDFa processing model implementation requirements?
# [04:58] <Hixie> gsnedders: i use that title="" when regenning the web-socket i-d
# [04:58] <Hixie> gsnedders: and deleting the source file wouldn't really make html5 easier to read, since it would itself get regenned from the working-copy file :-P
# [05:12] * Quits: dave_levin (n=dave_lev@c-98-203-247-78.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [05:20] * Quits: tantek_ (n=tantek@c-67-161-5-143.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [05:34] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@99.140.60.47)
# [05:56] * Joins: doublec (n=Chris_Do@118-93-186-208.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
# [06:05] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@99.140.60.47)
# [06:14] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@adsl-99-140-60-47.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net)
# [06:14] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@adsl-99-140-60-47.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net) (Remote closed the connection)
# [06:45] * Joins: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1)
# [06:50] * Joins: dglazkov__ (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [06:51] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [06:53] * dglazkov__ is now known as dglazkov
# [06:57] * Quits: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
# [07:21] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [07:22] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [07:24] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Client Quit)
# [07:32] * Quits: annevk (n=opera@77.163.243.203) (Remote closed the connection)
# [07:38] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@210-84-48-144.dyn.iinet.net.au)
# [08:04] * Joins: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@c-71-202-109-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [08:51] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
# [09:03] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
# [09:04] * Quits: bgalbraith (n=bgalbrai@c-71-202-109-116.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [09:15] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-168-225.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
# [09:25] * Joins: svl (n=me@static-213-115-8-83.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [09:26] <Hixie> hm, feedback from yahoo
# [09:37] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@adsl-63-195-114-133.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net)
# [09:45] * Quits: svl (n=me@static-213-115-8-83.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
# [09:55] <Philip`> Hixie: When you say "from yahoo", do you mean "from someone who is using the free Yahoo mail service"?
# [09:58] * Joins: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl)
# [10:00] * Quits: doublec (n=Chris_Do@118-93-186-208.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("ChatZilla 0.9.79-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]")
# [10:02] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
# [10:06] <Hixie> Philip`: oh, are @yahoo e-mail addresses not yahoo employees?
# [10:06] <Hixie> oh well
# [10:11] <Philip`> Hixie: No, just users
# [10:19] <gavin_> they use yahooinc.com for corporate addresses, I think
# [10:19] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-70-158.dynamic.amis.net)
# [10:32] * Joins: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-70-158.dynamic.amis.net)
# [10:32] <jwalden> or yahoo-inc maybe, think it's the latter but am not entirely sure
# [10:33] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-70-158.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
# [10:43] * Joins: svl (n=me@static-213-115-8-83.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se)
# [10:51] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38)
# [10:57] * Joins: danbri (n=danbri@77.167.54.81)
# [10:58] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lb5cf.l.pppool.de)
# [11:03] * Hixie ponders how to fix the <video> load() problem
# [11:05] <Hixie> namely that <video><source src=a><source src=b></video> doesn't load src=b
# [11:05] <Hixie> if src=a is broken
# [11:05] <Hixie> because when b is inserted, <video> is still checking a
# [11:06] <Hixie> maybe but i've no way of knowing that there is another <source> coming
# [11:06] <Hixie> so i can't wait...
# [11:06] <Hixie> and i can't just run the algorithm again when b comes along, because then a will be fetched twice
# [11:07] <Hixie> let
# [11:07] <Hixie> er
# [11:07] <Hixie> i have the following events:
# [11:07] <Hixie> video created
# [11:07] <Hixie> video inserted
# [11:07] <Hixie> source created
# [11:07] <Hixie> source inserted
# [11:07] <Hixie> src added/changed/removed
# [11:10] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@98.125.217.140)
# [11:10] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@98.125.217.140) (Remote closed the connection)
# [11:14] <Hixie> but source could have been inserted by script before another...
# [11:15] <Hixie> if script adds sources, we should probably wait for a load()
# [11:15] <Hixie> but if the parser does it should probably be implied...
# [11:15] <Hixie> hm, assymetry
# [11:17] <Philip`> Can't you make it not start any downloads until reaching the </video>?
# [11:17] <Hixie> there might not be on, consider <span><video><source></span>
# [11:18] <Hixie> one
# [11:18] <Hixie> or <video>EOF
# [11:18] <Philip`> Oh, right
# [11:18] <Hixie> it would be nice to have the parser just be like a script
# [11:19] <Philip`> Can't you make it not start any downloads until the page has finished downloading and parsing and running scripts?
# [11:19] <Hixie> parser inserts video (which might have a src), then inserts sources
# [11:19] <Hixie> we could, but the page might never finish downloading
# [11:19] <Hixie> consider an infinite iframe used for "comet"-like stuff which includes both <script> and <audio> elements
# [11:21] <Philip`> Can't you make it not start any downloads until either reaching the </video> or until the page has finished downloading and parsing and running scripts, whichever comes earliest?
# [11:22] <Hixie> we could but that's not very intuitive
# [11:22] <Hixie> we're trying to make the platform less quirky, not more :-)
# [11:22] <Philip`> (By "</video>" I probably mean "anything that causes the video element to be popped from the stack of open elements", if I remember the parser correctly)
# [11:22] <Hixie> there's no real good place to hook into the parser to do that currently
# [11:23] <Hixie> and i'd really rather not do anything in the parser
# [11:23] <Hixie> <script> has proven that to be a nightmare
# [11:23] <Hixie> it also gets really complicated to redefine it for xml
# [11:23] <Hixie> and it means you can't use DOM manipulation to pretend to be a parser
# [11:23] <Hixie> such as hsivonen's live dom viewer
# [11:24] <Hixie> what would we want to have happen is an author inserts <video>, <source>, <source>, then moves the first source to after the second
# [11:25] <Philip`> Fair enough
# [11:27] <Lachy> wtf? "I develop on Win95a and 98SE [...]." -- http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6606
# [11:29] <Lachy> A developer is the last kind of person I'd expect to be using exremely obsolete software
# [11:29] * Quits: svl (n=me@static-213-115-8-83.sme.bredbandsbolaget.se) ("And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.")
# [11:30] * Philip` used Windows 2000 until about 2007, but using 95 today is really going a step too far
# [11:33] * Joins: annevk (n=opera@77.163.243.203)
# [11:33] <Hixie> the difficulty is distinguishing between <video><source><source> and <video><source><souce>
# [11:34] <Lachy> I'm still using XP, it's nearly 8 years old now too, and I expect I'll still keep it around until Microsoft drops support for it or stops releasing new IE releases for it
# [11:34] <Hixie> i suppose we could get rid of the list of potential media resources
# [11:35] <Hixie> and just have it so that the load() algorithm, once invoked, remembers where it was, and walks down the list of <source> elements...
# [11:35] <Hixie> though if one is removed...
# [11:35] <Hixie> hmm
# [11:36] <Hixie> this may require a rewrite of how media elements load resources
# [11:36] <Hixie> but if we keep it similar enough that shouldn't be a big deal...
# [11:36] * Hixie stops talking to himself and switches to his editor
# [11:38] <Philip`> You have an editor?
# [11:38] <Hixie> emacs
# [11:38] <Philip`> I thought you were doing all the work yourself, not just proxying feedback to the real editor and stealing all the credit for his work
# [11:39] <Hixie> if there was someone else to blame, you can bet i'd be letting them take all the blame
# [11:51] <Hixie> src="" proves problematic even with this system
# [11:51] <Hixie> maybe we need a new NETWORK_ state
# [11:52] <Hixie> NETWORK_EMPTY would mean that nothing is happening yet, and NETWORK_WAITING would mean that the load algorithm is active but has no resource to load
# [11:53] <Hixie> and NETWORK_LOADING would mean that the algorithm is actively trying to load something
# [11:53] <Hixie> NETWORK_NONE, NETWORK_WAITING, NETWORK_LOADING, NETWORK_IDLE, NETWORK_LOADED, maybe?
# [11:53] <Hixie> eh i'm going to bed
# [11:54] <Hixie> nn
# [12:11] * Joins: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.16.119)
# [12:23] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-70-158.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [12:24] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-75-243.dynamic.amis.net)
# [12:32] * Joins: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-66-159.dynamic.amis.net)
# [12:49] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-75-243.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [12:51] * Parts: annevk (n=opera@77.163.243.203)
# [13:25] * Joins: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@L9e25.l.pppool.de)
# [13:27] <gsnedders> Hixie: Do you know all cases where you actually mean @title? I've got Anolis working with data-anolis-xref locally
# [13:42] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@Lb5cf.l.pppool.de) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [14:11] * Quits: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin) (Remote closed the connection)
# [14:12] * Joins: gavin (n=gavin@firefox/developer/gavin)
# [14:23] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-66-159.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [14:24] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-65-100.dynamic.amis.net)
# [14:31] * Joins: yecril71 (n=giecrilj@piekna-gts.2a.pl)
# [14:31] <yecril71> Lachy! How do you run Internet Explorer on Wine?
# [14:32] <yecril71> Wine is for third-party applications that are SDK-compliant;
# [14:32] <yecril71> Microsoft�s applications are not SDK-compliant.
# [14:33] <yecril71> <!DOCTYPE HTML> triggers HTML5 mode now in W3C�s validator.
# [14:34] <yecril71> I wonder whether it is a good thing.
# [14:34] <hsivonen> Hixie: the marked for extraction markers have a bogus month (00)
# [14:36] <yecril71> krijnh! The log pages should be described as using ISO-8859-1.
# [14:37] <yecril71> Internet Explorer sets the encoding to UTF-8.
# [14:38] <hsivonen> yecril71: why? people are supposed to speak UTF-8 here
# [14:40] <yecril71> But the logs are in ISO.
# [14:41] <yecril71> 8859-1.
# [14:41] <yecril71> So either fix the logs or tag them.
# [14:41] <hsivonen> ‽
# [14:41] <yecril71> The headers says Content-Type: text/html;charset=utf-8 but it is not true.
# [14:42] <yecril71> Your question mark caused my computer to hang for 10 s. :-)
# [14:43] <hsivonen> yecril71: it seems my interrobang was correctly logged as UTF-8 and served without NCRs
# [14:43] <yecril71> But look at Microsoft?s applications above.
# [14:43] <hsivonen> yecril71: are you sure it isn't a problem at your end with your client speaking Windows-1252 instead of UTF-8?
# [14:44] <hsivonen> krijnh: if a line doesn't decode as UTF-8, you should probably decode it as Windows-1252 for robustness. That's what irssi does.
# [14:44] <yecril71> How do I change the output encoding?
# [14:45] <hsivonen> yecril71: do you have irssi?
# [14:46] <yecril71> I have mIRC 6.21
# [14:46] <hsivonen> then I don't know
# [14:46] <Philip`> yecril71: http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page
# [14:47] <Philip`> hsivonen: All the status markers have bogus months (they're counting from 0 instead of 1)
# [14:49] <Philip`> (Perl's localtime function is a bit unintuitive - you have to add 1 to the month and 1900 to the year)
# [14:51] <yecril71> ies4linux says: �Tons of e-mails losted�.
# [14:52] <yecril71> With a reflexive hyperlink to make it better :-)
# [14:52] <yecril71> However, Philip`, do you happen to know what the trick behind it would be?
# [14:53] <Philip`> yecril71: I don't think there's any particular trick - it's just IE, and Wine, and everything configured and packed together so it works
# [14:54] <Philip`> http://appdb.winehq.org/appview.php?versionId=469 describes how to make it work in regular Wine
# [14:55] * Joins: myakura (n=myakura@p3020-ipbf505marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp)
# [14:57] <yecril71> Gosh, that page is unreadable.
# [14:59] <krijnh> ?
# [15:00] <krijnh> yecril71: mIRC sucks :)
# [15:00] <Philip`> When I last used mIRC, there were two separate options you had to enable in order to make Unicode work
# [15:01] <Philip`> With irssi I only had to set one configuration option
# [15:01] <Philip`> and a command-line option
# [15:01] <Philip`> and environment variables on two computers
# [15:01] <Philip`> and recompile irssi
# [15:01] <Philip`> but then it worked fine
# [15:02] <yecril71> ROTFL
# [15:02] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-168-225.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Read error: 60 (Operation timed out))
# [15:02] <yecril71> krijnh! probably it does, and I am not surprised.
# [15:05] * yecril71 was glad to see <http://browsers.evolt.org/>
# [15:06] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@203-158-43-109.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
# [15:08] <krijnh> yecril71: I use mIRC as well btw ;)
# [15:09] <krijnh> And I have no idea in what encoding the logfiles are saved
# [15:12] <yecril71> It seems it decides on line-by-line basis between ISO-8859-1 and UTF-8.
# [15:13] <krijnh> That's pretty weird
# [15:14] <yecril71> Or rather CP1252 and CP65001, to be precise.
# [15:15] <krijnh> Simple solution: all of you shouldn't use any weird characters :)
# [15:16] * yecril71 loves curly quotes and non-breaking spaces
# [15:20] * Philip` supposes mIRC just stores the bytes it got from the network
# [15:20] <Philip`> and the network probably just transmits the bytes that clients send it
# [15:20] <Philip`> so if people use stupid clients that don't send UTF-8 then you'll end up with a mixture
# [15:21] <yecril71> See also <http://validator.w3.org/check?verbose=1&uri=http%3A%2F%2Fkrijnhoetmer.nl%2Firc-logs%2Fwhatwg%2F20090222>
# [15:22] <krijnh> The raw log file: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/zooi/whatwg.20090222.log
# [15:22] <yecril71> Oops, why did it show up in Notepad?
# [15:23] <yecril71> Anyway, publishing unverified third-party content is a mortal sin :-(
# [15:23] <Philip`> http://validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fkrijnhoetmer.nl%2Firc-logs%2Fwhatwg%2F20090222 doesn't complain about any characters
# [15:23] <Philip`> (though you should use data-a and data-r :-) )
# [15:24] <yecril71> Sorry, I am unable to validate this document because on line 217 it contained one or more bytes that I cannot interpret as utf-8
# [15:25] <Philip`> yecril71: Publishing unverified third-party content is perfectly fine, as long as you escape '<' and don't serve it to draconian clients
# [15:25] <yecril71> You should also make sure that the character encoding is correct.
# [15:26] <Philip`> ...and as long as you set the HTTP content type so people don't go all EBCDIC on you
# [15:26] <Philip`> (Er, HTTP content type charset)
# [15:26] <yecril71> Right.
# [15:26] <Philip`> But then it's fine :-)
# [15:26] <krijnh> Sure, I could probably utf-8 encode each line
# [15:27] <krijnh> Add some more overhead to each request
# [15:29] <krijnh> But I think I'll stay a mortal sinner :)
# [15:30] * Philip` suggests not worrying about it - it's exactly what browser-side error correction is for :-)
# [15:31] <jgraham> gsnedders: You here?
# [15:31] <krijnh> I wasn't worrying about it for 2 years now :)
# [15:31] <krijnh> (Wow, time flies!)
# [15:32] <hsivonen> krijnh: not including "Now: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:32:21 +0100 (CET)" at the bottom of old logs would help with date-based searching
# [15:34] <krijnh> Removed
# [15:34] * Philip` wonders if the joke "time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana" can be translated into any language other than English
# [15:35] <krijnh> In Dutch it would be fruitflies
# [15:35] <krijnh> Err
# [15:35] <krijnh> Never mind :)
# [15:35] <hsivonen> krijnh: thanks
# [15:37] <hsivonen> krijnh: it's still at the top. :-) It would help to have the date of the logged day there with year, month and day as tokens that Google considers separate
# [15:37] <krijnh> You only mentioned the bottom of the page ;]
# [15:38] <krijnh> Removed as well
# [15:38] <krijnh> You mean something else than 20090222?
# [15:38] <krijnh> *other
# [15:41] <hsivonen> krijnh: yeah, having 2009, 02 and 22 separated by something that google considers as a word separator
# [15:41] <hsivonen> e.g. hyphen or space
# [15:41] <Philip`> You should be able to search with inurl:20090110..20090112 etc to get date ranges
# [15:42] <Philip`> except it makes Google accuse me of being a virus or spyware
# [15:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: ooh. cool.
# [15:42] <hsivonen> Philip`: accuses me, too. so not cool after all
# [15:43] <hsivonen> today, I started to find the first IRC log mention of a firefox build with the vendor-prefixed canvas text API, but I couldn't find it
# [15:46] <Philip`> hsivonen: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070802#l-107
# [15:47] <yecril71> How should I mark up section date?
# [15:47] <Philip`> based on grepping my offline logs
# [15:47] <yecril71> Section is H2, should the date be inside and styled away?
# [15:47] <Philip`> yecril71: Why do you want to mark up section date?
# [15:47] <yecril71> Customer�s requirement.
# [15:47] <yecril71> He used to do it with TD :-)
# [15:48] <hsivonen> Philip`: thanks
# [15:48] <Philip`> yecril71: Why do you want to do anything more complex than putting it in <span>?
# [15:48] <yecril71> The natural choice would be INS � but that is invisible.
# [15:48] <yecril71> Should the SPAN be inside the H2?
# [15:49] <Philip`> Is the date a part of the section's heading?
# [15:49] <Philip`> e.g. should it show up in an outline view of the document?
# [15:49] <yecril71> I think it should.
# [15:50] <yecril71> But then, the outline view would really be a TABLE, not a list :-(
# [16:23] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@user-160va8b.cable.mindspring.com)
# [16:31] <gsnedders> jgraham: yeah
# [17:01] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [17:02] * Quits: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-136-52-180.range86-136.btcentralplus.com) ("Killin' teh intarwebs")
# [17:02] * Joins: gsnedders (n=gsnedder@host86-136-52-180.range86-136.btcentralplus.com)
# [17:12] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
# [17:14] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
# [17:16] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (Client Quit)
# [17:17] * Joins: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net)
# [17:17] * Quits: eric_carlson (n=ericc@adsl-67-112-12-110.dsl.anhm01.pacbell.net) (Remote closed the connection)
# [18:30] * Joins: tndH (n=Rob@james-baillie-pc083-014.student-halls.leeds.ac.uk)
# [18:33] * Joins: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-168-225.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
# [18:40] * Quits: sayrer (n=chatzill@user-160va8b.cable.mindspring.com) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [18:48] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-65-100.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [18:53] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [18:53] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-76-233.dynamic.amis.net)
# [18:53] * Joins: blooberry (n=brian@c-67-188-123-89.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [18:53] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net)
# [18:54] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachlan@85.196.122.246)
# [19:07] * Joins: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-72-98.dynamic.amis.net)
# [19:20] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-76-233.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [19:47] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-69-244.dynamic.amis.net)
# [19:52] * Quits: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [19:52] * Joins: Amorphous (i=jan@unaffiliated/amorphous)
# [20:02] * Quits: zdobersek1 (n=zan@cpe-92-37-72-98.dynamic.amis.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [20:03] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@c-98-234-51-190.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [20:34] * Quits: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer))
# [20:34] * Joins: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
# [20:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: I guess you still aren't there
# [20:52] * gsnedders weeps at the loss of jgraham
# [20:58] * Joins: shepazu (n=schepers@cpe-76-168-214-103.socal.res.rr.com)
# [20:58] * Joins: grimboy (n=grimboy@78-86-152-156.zone2.bethere.co.uk)
# [21:02] * Joins: sayrer (n=chatzill@user-160va8b.cable.mindspring.com)
# [21:05] * Joins: dimich (n=dimich@98.125.217.140)
# [21:22] * Joins: erlehmann (n=erlehman@86.59.25.121)
# [21:33] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@203-158-43-109.dyn.iinet.net.au)
# [21:33] * Quits: maikmerten_ (n=maikmert@L9e25.l.pppool.de) (Client Quit)
# [22:00] <Hixie> ok
# [22:00] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
# [22:00] <Hixie> a constant that means that nothing is happening but that changing the .src will be ignored and <source> might be looked at...
# [22:06] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a88-115-168-225.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
# [22:06] <Hixie> NETWORK_NO_SOURCE.
# [22:22] <erlehmann> can someone point me to the rationale that <ins> should not cross paragraph boundaries?
# [22:29] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
# [22:33] * Quits: dimich (n=dimich@98.125.217.140)
# [22:37] * Quits: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-69-244.dynamic.amis.net) ("Leaving.")
# [22:37] * Joins: doublec (n=Chris_Do@118-93-186-208.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz)
# [23:01] * Joins: weinig (n=weinig@adsl-99-140-60-47.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net)
# [23:03] * Parts: aboodman (n=aboodman@72.14.229.81)
# [23:08] * Quits: heycam (n=cam@210-84-48-144.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("bye")
# [23:09] * Joins: hdh (n=hdh@118.71.79.203)
# [23:11] * Quits: shepazu (n=schepers@cpe-76-168-214-103.socal.res.rr.com)
# [23:15] * Quits: Maurice (i=copyman@5ED548D4.cable.ziggo.nl) ("Disconnected...")
# [23:16] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@adsl-99-140-60-47.dsl.scrm01.sbcglobal.net)
# [23:29] * Quits: xydyx (n=hdh@58.187.16.119) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# [23:33] * jwalden wonders if any work has been done at getting CSS support for sectioning content and heading levels
# [23:42] * Joins: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1)
# [23:43] <Hixie> jwalden: no need for css support, it can be described in css thus: http://damowmow.com/temp/sectioning.css
# [23:43] * Hixie ducks
# [23:44] <jwalden> sectioning content elements are arbitrarily nestable, tho, but sure, if you can constrain content then it's true
# [23:44] <Hixie> that css file handles the arbitrary nesting
# [23:44] * jwalden is actually doing that on his own site, but not to nearly that depth
# [23:44] <Hixie> i'm not really suggesting browsers do this
# [23:44] <jwalden> and not generically, either
# [23:44] <jwalden> I know
# [23:46] * Joins: svl (n=me@69.Red-88-2-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net)
# [23:46] <Hixie> but theoretically, it means the css specs themselves don't need to change, and the browsers can implement performance hacks like :-moz-any-link
# [23:48] * Joins: heycam (n=cam@vpn-118-138-224-31.its.monash.edu.au)
# [23:49] * Philip` sees that http://research.microsoft.com/apps/pubs/default.aspx?id=79655 cites Web Apps 1.0, but claims the author is a person named "W. H. A. T. W. Group"
# [23:49] <Philip`> Silly LaTeX trying to initialise people's names :-(
# [23:54] * Philip` tries to work out what the paper is actually about
# [23:58] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
# Session Close: Mon Feb 23 00:00:00 2009

The end :)