/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-03-14 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Mar 14 00:00:01 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  4. # [00:12] <VeXocide> hmz, should '<a <b><i>b</b>c' parse to '<html><head></head><body><a <b=""><i>bc</i></a></body></html>' ?
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  6. # [00:13] <VeXocide> as in, is <a <b=""> legal ?
  7. # [00:16] <Philip`> VeXocide: HTML5 says it should parse like that, i.e. having an attribute named "<b"
  8. # [00:16] <VeXocide> Philip`, i find that odd, but alright
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  10. # [00:18] <gsnedders> VeXocide: It is, however, non-conforming
  11. # [00:19] <VeXocide> non-conforming ?
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  13. # [00:20] <gsnedders> VeXocide: And a conforming implementation could also create no parse tree, and throw a fatal error (as it'll never get to the point of emitting the a start tag, so thus won't even have <html><head></head><body></body></html>)
  14. # [00:20] <VeXocide> ah, right, but when forced to make something out of it, this would be it
  15. # [00:20] <gsnedders> VeXocide: I mean "<a <b><i>b</b>" does not conform to HTML 5's requirements for documents, and '<a <b="">' cannot occur in a conforming document
  16. # [00:21] <gsnedders> (and insofar as that, it is not legal)
  17. # [00:21] <gsnedders> But a conforming parser would either end up with what you gave, or give a fatal error.
  18. # [00:21] <VeXocide> gsnedders, that was why i was amazed, gecko makes something like <a><b><i>b</i></b><i>c</i></a> out of it
  19. # [00:22] <VeXocide> which somehow makes more sense
  20. # [00:22] <gsnedders> VeXocide: Consider the <a <script>alert(foo)</script>>magic link</a> case
  21. # [00:22] <VeXocide> fair enough, and they are rather nasty cases
  22. # [00:23] <gsnedders> What IE does is probably more relevant than Gecko, though
  23. # [00:29] <Philip`> (<a <b=""> isn't a parse error, it's just an undefined attribute so it's the same kind of error as <a b="">)
  24. # [00:31] <gsnedders> Woah.
  25. # [00:31] <gsnedders> Odd.
  26. # [00:32] * gsnedders didn't expect "Start a new attribute in the current tag token. Set that attribute's name to the current input character, and its value to the empty string. Switch to the attribute name state."
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  28. # [00:32] <Philip`> Without that step, you would have to write all attributes names in uppercase :-p
  29. # [00:32] <Philip`> s/s//
  30. # [00:32] <gsnedders> Well, sure
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  51. # [03:17] <[bjoern]> Hixie, you around?
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  53. # [03:18] <gsnedders> jgraham or annevk5: ping
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  55. # [03:21] <annevk5> pong
  56. # [03:21] * annevk5 deals with an invasion of Portuguese twitter followers
  57. # [03:22] <gsnedders> annevk5: Could I possibly ask you to host something, seeming you have a working copy of lxml on a pubic webserver?
  58. # [03:24] <gsnedders> annevk5: Namely, my school computing project, which is really just a slightly disguised biblio module for Anolis
  59. # [03:24] <annevk5> can't you use gsnedders.html5.org ?
  60. # [03:25] <gsnedders> Oh, lxml works there. Oh.
  61. # [03:25] <gsnedders> All right, that'll work.
  62. # [03:27] <[bjoern]> Hixie: nm
  63. # [03:36] <Hixie> here now
  64. # [03:36] <[bjoern]> annevk5 kindly took care of the matter.
  65. # [03:37] <annevk5> "RDFa in XHTML becomes a W3C Recommendation. Still not in HTML5." is a bit misleading in that intertwingly page; it's not in XHTML 1.0 either
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  68. # [03:40] <Hixie> annevk5: there's a lot on that page that's misleading, starting with the first sentence :-)
  69. # [03:40] * Philip` wonders why Rob Burns' proposals always seem to involve making things massively more complex
  70. # [03:41] <annevk5> Hixie, fair enough, I was just skimming a bit
  71. # [03:41] <annevk5> Philip`, I'm sure he'd disagree with that :p
  72. # [03:43] <Hixie> annevk5: there's a lot of other stuff in there that is misleading to various degrees
  73. # [03:43] <annevk5> hmm, missed Pi Day by a ~50 minutes
  74. # [03:43] <Hixie> it's not clear if sam knows that it's misleading and is trying to achieve some goal or other, or if he doesn't know
  75. # [03:43] <annevk5> s/by a/by/
  76. # [03:44] <annevk5> I always find it hard to tell with him though he usually seems to have some goal
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  96. # [04:50] <heycam> what's a one-liner i can use for html5lib to convert html5 to xml?
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  98. # [04:57] <heycam> seems i already asked this =) http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070622#l-85
  99. # [05:28] * [bjoern] notes to self that adding attributes to elements in a schema is not adding a new feature
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  146. # [10:25] <annevk5> (bjoern, if you read these logs at all the answer to your question is "no")
  147. # [10:34] * jgraham wonders why rubys is so hung up on aria when there is agreement that aria will be included in html5 just as soon as the interaction with other parts of html5 is defined
  148. # [10:34] <annevk5> and ARIA itself is defined in implementable terms
  149. # [10:35] <jgraham> And when several "whatwg" people spent a great deal of effort making it possible to implement aria
  150. # [10:35] <jgraham> (in HTML)
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  153. # [10:36] <jgraham> annevk5: That's roughly the same thing. But there is an aria taskforce thing
  154. # [10:36] <annevk5> yeah dunno, maybe because the TAG used it as example
  155. # [10:36] <annevk5> and he's obviously been reading up on what happened so it might just have come from that debate
  156. # [10:37] <annevk5> jgraham, I'm not really sure it's the same; defining how ARIA interacts with HTML and how ARIA maps to platform accessibility APIs seems quite separate
  157. # [10:38] <jgraham> annevk5: Well it's kind of a subset I guess. Define how aria maps to accessibility apis, define how html maps to accessibility apis and define precedence and you can infer how aria fits into html
  158. # [10:40] <jgraham> Who is doing the aria work?
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  160. # [10:41] <annevk5> not sure
  161. # [10:41] * annevk5 hasn't been following it
  162. # [10:50] <annevk5> maybe now aaronlev left IBM it's sort of falling through the cracks?
  163. # [10:50] <rubys1> it==aria?
  164. # [10:50] * rubys1 is now known as rubys
  165. # [10:50] <olliej> annevk5: hahaha
  166. # [10:50] * olliej is supportive
  167. # [10:50] <annevk5> rubys, y
  168. # [10:51] <rubys> definitely not falling through the cracks
  169. # [10:51] <annevk5> well, I meant the ARIA mapping to platform APIs
  170. # [10:51] <jgraham> rubys: regarding your document, I think there are pretty clear plans to integrate api in html5
  171. # [10:51] <annevk5> though someone from Microsoft was leading that too, I recall now
  172. # [10:52] <jgraham> But it is blocking on aria being defined in a sutiable way
  173. # [10:52] <rubys> aria is an exemplar, those that worked on it have worked well with those that are leading html5
  174. # [10:52] <rubys> other groups (e.g. RDFa): not so much
  175. # [10:53] <annevk5> ARIA was quite a tough sell actually
  176. # [10:54] <annevk5> ask hsivonen
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  178. # [10:54] <rubys> I watched it from the sidelines
  179. # [10:54] <annevk5> they seemed to care more about XHTML2 than HTML at various points in the discussion o_O
  180. # [10:55] <jgraham> rubys: There are still some technical issues blocking aria. Like, say, how does aria-labelledby interact with @headers on a <td>
  181. # [10:55] <jgraham> I believe integrating aria into HTML5 is blocking on those issues being reslved
  182. # [10:55] <rubys> ARIA is in last call... perhaps somebody should raise such issues?
  183. # [10:56] <annevk5> the PFWG wants to address those in separate documents
  184. # [10:56] <jgraham> rubys: I think I have
  185. # [10:56] <annevk5> including e.g. basic things such as how to implement it
  186. # [10:56] <jgraham> Although I find the tangle of accessibility related lists hard to follow
  187. # [10:57] <rubys> My read is that those that want ARIA want it in HTML5, and view being in a separate document as somewhat suboptimal
  188. # [10:57] <jgraham> who are "those that want aria" in this case?
  189. # [10:58] <rubys> Mostly I talk to RichardS, mainly because he's in my dept.
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  191. # [10:59] <jgraham> I think it is possible to have HTML5 define how ARIA+HTML5 works. Although I think it is a little dependant on the outcome of this aria taskforce thing what it should say
  192. # [11:00] <jgraham> (the one about how to map aria to accessibility apis)
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  215. # [15:23] <annevk> pff, reading through http://intertwingly.net/stories/2009/03/13/html5-evolution.html more carefully I find I have quite a few remarks to make, but I wonder if it's worth the effort
  216. # [15:24] * rubys listening
  217. # [15:24] <annevk> e.g. the WHATWG scope never changed imo
  218. # [15:25] <annevk> we always wanted to fix all the holes in previous specifications
  219. # [15:25] <annevk> it turned out that while doing this, the WF 2.0 approach wasn't that good
  220. # [15:26] <annevk> (writing a "patch-spec")
  221. # [15:28] <annevk> the introduction reads very much like a strawman and I'm not sure if e.g. "Those with a vested interest will portray portions of the truth in a way that will sound very plausible." does not apply to you
  222. # [15:28] <rubys> oh, it applies to me.
  223. # [15:30] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@12.14.133.62)
  224. # [15:31] <rubys> annevk: is that it? Hardly "quite a few remarks"...
  225. # [15:32] <Philip`> There are clearly serious problems with that article - for a start, the colours are a little bit peculiar
  226. # [15:32] <Philip`> Also I'm not a big fan of serif fonts
  227. # [15:33] <rubys> Did I set the fonts? checking...
  228. # [15:33] <Philip`> They're just the default, I think
  229. # [15:33] <rubys> Nope. Unless you count "font-size: small"
  230. # [15:34] <rubys> You don't like the defaults provided by your browser, and somehow that's *my* problem? <grin>
  231. # [15:36] <annevk> I wasn't planning on being exhaustive; but to continue... it doesn't explain why the WHATWG was formed
  232. # [15:36] * rubys wishes everybody a happy π day.
  233. # [15:36] <annevk> as we actually did try to get this done at the W3C
  234. # [15:37] <rubys> If you have links to add, I'll gladly revise. If you want to rip it to shreds on your weblog or elsewhere, that's also entirely OK with me.
  235. # [15:38] <rubys> I do believe that the stated scope is different. The notion that perhaps people stated one scope while intending to do something else and then doing that other things... let's just say that bothers me deeply. I prefer to think that WF 2.0 didn't work out (as you said), and the scope changed.
  236. # [15:42] <annevk> WF2 was about updating and extending one part of HTML4/DOM2, WA1 was about the rest
  237. # [15:43] <Philip`> http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/history links to a lot of the history
  238. # [15:43] <annevk> which seems in line with the position paper that led to the WHATWG http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/papers/opera.html
  239. # [15:43] <annevk> but I may be missing stuff
  240. # [15:43] <Philip`> e.g. the Workshop on Web Applications and Compound Documents and surrounding blog posts and formation of the WHATWG
  241. # [15:45] <rubys> annvk's link is a good one, and one that isn't in the esw history...
  242. # [15:46] <Philip`> "Opera and Mozilla jointly submit and present a position paper with a set of proposed Design Principles for Web Application Technologies"
  243. # [15:46] <Philip`> That looks to be linking to the same paper
  244. # [15:46] <rubys> dates are off by two months?
  245. # [15:46] <annevk> the WHATWG charter also hasn't been revised apart from the members section afaik and it still applies I think
  246. # [15:47] <Philip`> rubys: I hope you're not attempting to derive any meaning from the date-like numbers in w3.org URLs :-)
  247. # [15:47] <annevk> rubys, W3C uses dates in URIs for namespacing only
  248. # [15:47] <annevk> there's hardly ever much meaning in it :/
  249. # [15:48] <Philip`> rubys: The workshop was 2004-06-{01,02}, and I guess they just created the web site in 2004-04
  250. # [15:48] <rubys> ok, got it
  251. # [15:49] <rubys> ok, so todo is to scour that page for useful links and/or simply link outright to that page. I'm surprise to see Atom featured so prominently in that page.
  252. # [15:49] <Philip`> I'm sure I saw a /2009 URL (for the next TPAC or something?) last year, so presumably it doesn't always correspond to creation date
  253. # [15:50] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/2009/11/TPAC/
  254. # [15:51] <annevk> might depend on who sets it up :)
  255. # [15:51] <rubys> http://shawn.medero.net/blog/2009/03/11/buckle-up/
  256. # [15:51] <rubys> that suggests that more coverage of canvas seems appropriate. I don't see canvas mentioned in the ews page either.
  257. # [15:54] * Philip` presumes the appropriateness depends on the goal of the document, and he doesn't know what the goal is
  258. # [15:54] <annevk> time to find a gate
  259. # [15:55] * Parts: annevk (n=annevk@195-23-93-210.static.net.novis.pt)
  260. # [15:55] <rubys> Philip`: world domination?
  261. # [15:56] <Philip`> rubys: If that's the goal, I think an army of clones would be more effective than a document on the history of HTML
  262. # [16:01] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  263. # [16:03] <rubys> a week from tomorrow, I'll be in a room with a bunch of people, some of which actually think that RDFa is a good idea or XForms is a good idea, or alt attributes should be required. Many of them will be looking at me, as I will be on stage in a panel.
  264. # [16:14] * Joins: sid0_ (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0)
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  277. # [17:07] <sayrer> "If you don't agree with a rule you are told to follow, announce your agreement to it in a statement, and in that statement, assert that you intend to follow it in a manner consistent with some other set of rules;"
  278. # [17:10] <rubys> As a general rule, I tend to reduce over time my association with people who live by that particular maxim.
  279. # [17:18] <karlcow> hehe
  280. # [17:19] * Quits: doublec (n=doublec@118-92-143-120.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz) ("Leaving")
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  284. # [17:46] <Hixie> sayrer: the last US administration was really quite good at applying that particular technique
  285. # [17:46] <sayrer> so is the editor of the W3C HTML5 spec ;)
  286. # [17:47] <Hixie> if you say so
  287. # [17:47] <jgraham> There's nothing like a little flamebait to warm the heart on a Saturday afternoon
  288. # [17:48] <rubys> Meanwhile, draft-hixie has gotten a lot of attention the past month. draft-sayre... not so much.
  289. # [17:48] <sayrer> *shrug
  290. # [17:49] <Hixie> crap, match is about to start. gotta go.
  291. # [17:51] * gsnedders wonders what match
  292. # [17:52] * jgraham guesses not football
  293. # [17:52] <gsnedders> jgraham: football in what language?
  294. # [17:52] <jgraham> Does anyone have any useful LaTeX advice for me?
  295. # [17:52] <gsnedders> http://pastebin.com/m1fb3906a — can someone explain why Python isn't importing it from where I'd expect?
  296. # [17:53] <gsnedders> Oh, wait, duh.
  297. # [17:53] <jgraham> Specifically what to do when dvip[s|df] complains dvips: ! Couldn't find header file times.ttf
  298. # [17:53] <jgraham> This used to work
  299. # [17:54] <jgraham> But I guess the system has been upgraded under me
  300. # [17:54] <jgraham> *upgraded
  301. # [17:56] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  302. # [17:56] <Philip`> jgraham: Use Computer Modern
  303. # [17:57] <Philip`> Also, use pdflatex
  304. # [17:57] <gsnedders> Also, use xelatex
  305. # [17:58] <jgraham> Philip`: That would involve redoing all my plots. It is the text in the plots that is causing the problem afaict
  306. # [17:58] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  307. # [17:59] <jgraham> Also pdflatex doesn't show any of the plots at all for some reason. And I really really don't want to change tools now
  308. # [17:59] <jgraham> xelatex is simply not an ooption
  309. # [18:00] * Joins: dglazkov_ (n=dglazkov@72.14.224.1)
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  313. # [18:00] <Philip`> jgraham: Use Word
  314. # [18:00] <jgraham> (these are the corrections for my thesis which I should have done several months ago but didn't have an internet connection handy. Hence the reluctance to make any major changes)
  315. # [18:01] <jgraham> (because I never want to read it again)
  316. # [18:02] * gsnedders is intending on never writing a thesis
  317. # [18:02] <gsnedders> Thereby avoiding this issue
  318. # [18:02] * Philip` too
  319. # [18:02] <gsnedders> Philip`: What degree is it that you're doing now?
  320. # [18:03] <Philip`> gsnedders: It's a PhD
  321. # [18:03] <gsnedders> That's what I thought.
  322. # [18:03] * Joins: zdobersek (n=zan@cpe-92-37-79-53.dynamic.amis.net)
  323. # [18:03] * gsnedders wonders how Philip` intends to do a PhD without writing a thesis
  324. # [18:03] <Philip`> That doesn't mean I'm intending on doing any work
  325. # [18:03] * jgraham was never quite sure what happened ifyou did a PhD but never handed anything in
  326. # [18:04] <Philip`> You stop getting any funding
  327. # [18:04] <jgraham> Although one of my supervisors ex students went home to brazil to write up and was never seen again
  328. # [18:04] <jgraham> Philip`: Yeah, I realise that
  329. # [18:04] <Philip`> and in CS I think they try to kick you out if you've taken more than four or five years because it means the department will get less funding in the future
  330. # [18:04] <gsnedders> And it's meant to be what? Three years?
  331. # [18:04] * gsnedders forgets
  332. # [18:05] <jgraham> Is there a way for the funding people to try to reclaim anyof their money?
  333. # [18:05] <Philip`> (since the funding bodies don't like paying for people who aren't going to finish anything)
  334. # [18:05] <jgraham> (There was a similar situation with us and overrunning)
  335. # [18:05] <gsnedders> jgraham: (Us meaning astrophys.?)
  336. # [18:06] <jgraham> gsnedders: Us meaning "people funded by the funding body formerly known as PPARC and now known as STFC"
  337. # [18:06] <Philip`> jgraham: I'm not aware of that being possible - I assume they just decide each year whether to continue the funding
  338. # [18:07] <gsnedders> Wow, very loud low flying jets suddenly
  339. # [18:07] <gsnedders> (I assume Eurofighters)
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  342. # [18:25] <hsivonen> rubys: I think it would be fair to say that Microsoft was invited to the WHATWG
  343. # [18:27] <Philip`> But it seems the WHATWG wasn't willing to take the necessary steps (like patent policy stuff) for Microsoft to be able to accept that invitation
  344. # [18:28] <hsivonen> yeah, it would also be fair to say that
  345. # [18:30] <Philip`> (and Apple's canvas patent demonstrates that implementing HTML5 will infringe on people's patents, so the need for protection is realistic)
  346. # [18:33] <gsnedders> (Apart from the fact that Apple didn't sue anyone)
  347. # [18:36] <Philip`> (I don't think "I haven't sued anyone yet" is an adequate justification for companies to believe there's no risk of being sued in the future)
  348. # [18:37] <Philip`> (Maybe everyone will stop buying Apple products and they will devolve into a patent troll five years from now)
  349. # [18:39] <karlcow> gsnedders: if you choose the way of "didn't sue anyone", then you have to admit that there is "no issue with w3c doc license". Very similar case.
  350. # [18:40] <gsnedders> karlcow: You assume everything I say is serious
  351. # [18:40] <gsnedders> :)
  352. # [18:42] <Philip`> gsnedders: You should be sure to use ":)" whenever you say anything non-serious
  353. # [18:42] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@198.214.235.51)
  354. # [18:46] <gsnedders> Hmm… There's a hole in my hoodie.
  355. # [18:46] <gsnedders> Actually, that's untrue. There's quite a lot of holes in my hoodie.
  356. # [18:46] <karlcow> gsnedders: it is hard (even with smileys) to convey the intent of the message. Electronic communications are highly decontextualized. Plus humour is something which is very cultural and "private" group of alike minded people
  357. # [18:46] <Philip`> Makes it easier to insert your head
  358. # [18:47] <karlcow> * in a group…
  359. # [18:50] <rubys> hsivonen and Philip`: I'm looking for statements that have URIs
  360. # [18:52] * Philip` wonders what kinds of statements rubys means
  361. # [18:52] <rubys> "it seems the WHATWG wasn't willing to take the necessary steps".... got a URI?
  362. # [18:52] <Philip`> Ah
  363. # [18:54] <Philip`> http://blogs.msdn.com/cwilso/archive/2007/01/10/you-me-and-the-w3c-aka-reinventing-html.aspx
  364. # [18:54] <rubys> preferably one with a date... mailing list archives are ideal. Not this W3C business of putting what looks like dates in URIs that have little resemblance to actual dates. (caption for the humor impaired: It's a joke, son)
  365. # [18:54] * Joins: sid0_ (n=sid0@59.94.131.63)
  366. # [18:54] <Philip`> "I was asked personally to join the WHAT WG over a year ago. I had a back-and-forth discussion in email with several of the members of the WHAT-WG. I said [...] “you have no patent policy, and that makes it impossible for me to join.” The response was something along the lines of “yeah, we should get one of those.”"
  367. # [18:55] <gsnedders> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2004-June/000220.html also says we should do something about the lack
  368. # [18:55] <rubys> thanks!
  369. # [18:56] * gsnedders doesn't think anything has ever happened about getting one thoguh
  370. # [18:57] <rubys> I think the issue is that if whatever is broken at the W3C (starting with the license) were to be fixed, there would be no need to fix the WHATWG's lack of patent policy.
  371. # [18:57] <Philip`> gsnedders: The WHATWG did get a patent policy, by getting the W3C to make a WG for it
  372. # [19:00] * Quits: weinig (n=weinig@cpe-66-65-132-93.nyc.res.rr.com)
  373. # [19:01] * Philip` assumes a W3C patent policy is going to be more effective than a WHATWG patent policy could be, because people could decide to violate the WHATWG patent policy and not suffer any significant repercussions
  374. # [19:01] <Philip`> (whereas "Microsoft kicked out of W3C for violating patent policy" would be bad in terms of PR and in terms of all the other W3C work they care about)
  375. # [19:02] <Philip`> s/Microsoft/Apple/ if you want
  376. # [19:03] * Joins: sid0__ (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0)
  377. # [19:04] <karlcow> aaah? Was it a political move from whatwg then? ;) explicitly kidding
  378. # [19:04] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Nick collision from services.)
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  381. # [19:20] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://bugs.gsnedders.com/ says "Bad Gateway" :-(
  382. # [19:22] <Hixie> gsnedders: First Robotics match. I'm one of the refs at the silicon valley regional.
  383. # [19:22] <Hixie> gsnedders: don't you read my twitters?
  384. # [19:25] * Quits: danbri (n=danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  385. # [19:34] <rubys> hixie: there was some confusion, you are still planning on going to this, right: http://esw.w3.org/topic/IETF_HTML5_Meeting_March_2009 ?
  386. # [19:34] * Quits: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net) (Remote closed the connection)
  387. # [19:35] <Hixie> yes; i'm planning on going to all meetings in san franscisco near the ietf meeting that don't involve me paying an entrance fee
  388. # [19:35] <Hixie> (and that i'm invited to)
  389. # [19:35] <Hixie> as far as i know that's the only one
  390. # [19:36] <rubys> there's an unrelated meeting the next day, let me find the URI...
  391. # [19:36] <rubys> Actually, I twittered it, don't you read my twitters? :-)
  392. # [19:37] <rubys> http://tinyurl.com/ahtgn3
  393. # [19:37] <rubys> Brad Neuberg
  394. # [19:39] <Hixie> i don't classify "drinking" as a meeting :-)
  395. # [19:40] * Joins: karlcow (n=karl@nerval.la-grange.net)
  396. # [19:41] <Hixie> rubys: incidentally, re the first sentence of your html-evolution document, the whatwg list has more subscribers than the entire browser development teams of apple, opera, google, and mozilla put together
  397. # [19:42] <rubys> interesting, but only if you conflate subscribers with contributors :-)
  398. # [19:43] <rubys> that said, I'm a contributor and I'm not employed by a browser vendor
  399. # [19:43] <Hixie> the acknowledgements section of html5 -- all people who have contributed in a way that actually affected the spec -- has more names on it than the core browser development teams of all those browser vendors too
  400. # [19:44] <rubys> some sort of adjective, like "primarily" perhaps, would seem to be in order.
  401. # [19:44] <Hixie> (i.e. not counting suppot staff like lawyers)
  402. # [19:44] <Hixie> i don't know that it's even "primarily" to be honest
  403. # [19:44] <Hixie> since the browser vendors are contributing just as much to the w3c as the whatwg at this point
  404. # [19:45] <Hixie> and other people are mostly contributing just to the whatwg
  405. # [19:47] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  406. # [19:48] <rubys> My perception is that there is a long tail phenomenon going on here. Some people (e.g. annevk) contribute dramatically more than others (e.g., rubys). Those that tend to contribute more tend to be tightly associated with a browser vendor, for obvious reasons.
  407. # [19:52] <Hixie> actually anne's a great example
  408. # [19:52] <Hixie> if i'm not mistaken, he was independent originally
  409. # [19:52] <Hixie> and it was his involvement in the list that led to him working for a browser vendor
  410. # [19:52] <Hixie> same with jgraham, lachy, zcorpan
  411. # [19:52] <Hixie> probably others too
  412. # [20:01] * Joins: dbaron (n=dbaron@66.194.95.219)
  413. # [20:05] <karlcow> rubys: browser vendors employees and usually students. People who have paid time for it, or people who use their free time for community involvement instead of studies
  414. # [20:05] <Hixie> just like with the w3c :-)
  415. # [20:06] <karlcow> I noticed since I have a job which is not directly tied to standards work that it becomes a *lot* harder to follow what is really happening (from political to technical).
  416. # [20:06] <Hixie> right, alliances are selected; time for lunch, then the elimination rounds!
  417. # [20:23] * Joins: annevk5 (n=opera@77.163.243.203)
  418. # [20:24] * Joins: dolske (n=dolske@c-76-103-40-203.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  419. # [20:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: Not sync. enough :)
  420. # [20:25] <gsnedders> Philip`: Why do you want that bugtracker anyway? :P
  421. # [20:30] <Philip`> gsnedders: I don't, but Google told me to look at it
  422. # [20:30] <gsnedders> Philip`: Why?
  423. # [20:30] <Philip`> when I was searching for your HTTP parsing thing
  424. # [20:31] <gsnedders> http://stuff.gsnedders.com/http-parsing.html
  425. # [20:36] <annevk5> "Plus humour is something which is very cultural and "private" group of alike minded people" I find I can have a laugh with most people in most countries I've visited (saying most because I might not remember all)
  426. # [20:39] <Philip`> Cultures aren't necessarily aligned with national boundaries, so that doesn't mean much if the people in those countries were all part of the web-development cultures
  427. # [20:39] <Philip`> s/s$//
  428. # [20:40] <jgraham> Philip`: I dunno, it's not like all web developoers have the same sense of humour
  429. # [20:40] * Quits: rubys (n=rubys@cpe-075-182-092-038.nc.res.rr.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  430. # [20:41] <annevk5> And it's also not like I only meet web-development people :)
  431. # [20:42] <karlcow> +1 to Philip`. A unix joke with fly a lot better with people actually knowing unix (aka culture) in any countries
  432. # [20:42] * Joins: sayrer_ (n=chatzill@cpe-69-203-154-45.si.res.rr.com)
  433. # [20:42] * sayrer_ is now known as sayrer
  434. # [20:42] <karlcow> annevk5: hehe
  435. # [20:43] <Philip`> jgraham: Sure, but they're much more similar to each other than to e.g. goatherders in Morocco, I would assume
  436. # [20:43] <karlcow> I know that most of the humour I could do here would be shocking, so most of the time I abstain. I do it with the group of people which have the same sense of humour. It avoids me troubles ;) I have already enough here ;)
  437. # [20:44] <jgraham> karlcow: Shocking?
  438. # [20:46] <Philip`> You couldn't be even as shocking as Mr Last Week, surely
  439. # [20:46] <karlcow> jgraham: yes :) I have a tendency to be very sarcastic (checking the dictionary), but in an absurd way. For understanding the humour, you would have to really know me, because it is often at the opposite of what I really think.
  440. # [20:46] <Philip`> and he's just weird rather than shocking :-)
  441. # [20:46] <karlcow> Philip`: Mr Last Week is not shocking. He is right on the spot ;)
  442. # [20:47] <jgraham> karlcow is looking increasingly like a Mr Last Week candidate :)
  443. # [20:48] <jgraham> karlcow: Yeah, I do the sarcasm thing. Or a sarcasm thing. But I'm trying to tone it down for living abroad because it doesn't necessarily cross language (rather than cultural) barriers
  444. # [20:49] <karlcow> jgraham: I wish I was, but unfortunately 1) my English level is not good enough compared to the talent of Mr Last Week, 2) I don't think I have said things about people behind a pseudo.
  445. # [20:50] <karlcow> at least a pseudo which was not known from the recipient of the message
  446. # [20:50] <karlcow> would be more exact
  447. # [20:50] <karlcow> aka karlcow for example
  448. # [20:50] <jgraham> karlcow: 2) suggests that you don't really wish you were
  449. # [20:51] <jgraham> Since you don't have a tendency toward anonymous trolling
  450. # [20:51] <jgraham> however literate
  451. # [20:52] <karlcow> yep exactly. If I was doing comments. It would be serious ;) maybe even more critics and it would get me a lot of troubles. I have only one life, I don't wish to spend it fighting all the time. :)) just being sane
  452. # [20:53] <karlcow> though I'm more likely to say things face to face, which I prefer usually.
  453. # [20:53] <karlcow> annevk5 and I had a few enjoyable (at least for me) discussions.
  454. # [20:53] <karlcow> annevk5 is someone I respect.
  455. # [20:54] * Quits: dbaron (n=dbaron@66.194.95.219) ("8403864 bytes have been tenured, next gc will be global.")
  456. # [20:59] <gsnedders> You respect annevk5!? You idiot! :D
  457. # [20:59] <karlcow> ahah
  458. # [20:59] * gsnedders wonders what on earth is going on with this Python
  459. # [20:59] * karlcow is waiting for my money transfert
  460. # [20:59] <annevk5> that's what you get for calling me idiot
  461. # [21:01] * Parts: annevk5 (n=opera@77.163.243.203)
  462. # [21:01] <karlcow> rha gsnedders you see, you made him upset!
  463. # [21:02] <gsnedders> And I can't even say sorry!
  464. # [21:02] <Philip`> gsnedders: Maybe it swallowed a crocodile
  465. # [21:03] <Philip`> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/americas_enl_1128575604/html/1.stm - poor python :-(
  466. # [21:04] <Philip`> If that's not it, I don't know what problems you're experiencing
  467. # [21:04] <karlcow> "La Grenouille et la Vache" Jean de la Fontaine.
  468. # [21:06] <gsnedders> WTF!?
  469. # [21:09] <gsnedders> Has anyone here read Le Chiendent?
  470. # [21:09] <gsnedders> (by Raymond Queneau)
  471. # [21:14] * Philip` hasn't read any French books, except a few pages of an English translation of "Graphes, dioïdes et semi-anneaux"
  472. # [21:17] <gsnedders> deepcopy does something really whacky
  473. # [21:17] <gsnedders> The copy it creates has no attributes seemingly
  474. # [21:36] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  475. # [21:37] * Quits: mlpug (n=mlpug@a91-156-60-13.elisa-laajakaista.fi) (Remote closed the connection)
  476. # [21:40] <gsnedders> Ow.
  477. # [21:40] <gsnedders> I just killed performance in a big way.
  478. # [21:40] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  479. # [21:41] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  480. # [21:43] <Philip`> gsnedders: As opposed to a tiny little killing?
  481. # [21:43] <gsnedders> Philip`: Exactly.
  482. # [21:44] * Philip` wonders if you can get a reduced sentence for murder if you only kill somebody a little bit
  483. # [21:51] * Quits: sid0 (n=sid0@unaffiliated/sid0) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  484. # [21:58] * Joins: annevk5 (n=opera@535739CA.cable.casema.nl)
  485. # [21:59] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-171-22.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  486. # [22:05] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@198.214.235.51)
  487. # [22:05] * Philip` would be more convinced by Microsoft's claims of "most complete" CSS 2.1 support if they didn't close his bug report, of a CSS bug which makes his site unusable in IE8 (compared to merely ugly in IE7), as "postponed"
  488. # [22:12] <gsnedders> How the hell does that happen…
  489. # [22:13] <gsnedders> self.index(self[key]) — ValueError: list.index(x): x not in list
  490. # [22:14] <gsnedders> Oh, duh.
  491. # [22:18] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  492. # [22:18] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  493. # [22:18] * Quits: sayrer (n=chatzill@cpe-69-203-154-45.si.res.rr.com) (Remote closed the connection)
  494. # [22:26] <jgraham> gsnedders: I bet x is not in the list
  495. # [22:26] <gsnedders> Indeed it is not.
  496. # [22:27] * gsnedders has basically changed everything about how the list behaves though
  497. # [22:27] <jgraham> gsnedders: Is that an ordered dict?
  498. # [22:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: No
  499. # [22:27] <jgraham> Oh. Well it has a __getitem__ and an index so it seems quite like one
  500. # [22:28] <jgraham> (maybe not insertion ordered)
  501. # [22:29] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@L9ff5.l.pppool.de) (Remote closed the connection)
  502. # [22:29] <gsnedders> It's the real whacky data structure I have to represent a refer file
  503. # [22:29] <gsnedders> It seems perfectly sane until you look at the code that implements it
  504. # [22:29] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh, usually I have the opposite problem
  505. # [22:30] <gsnedders> the getter also uses a cache to find what to get
  506. # [22:30] <jgraham> My data structures look insane until you realise they were the only thing that you could do in two lines of code
  507. # [22:30] <gsnedders> Fun bugs like that appear when the list and cache get out of sync
  508. # [22:31] <jgraham> gsnedders: Can't you force them to be in sync? Like by being the same data?
  509. # [22:31] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  510. # [22:31] <gsnedders> Oh, the implementation of the list subclass should keep them in sync
  511. # [22:31] * jgraham doesn't really know what "the list" does
  512. # [22:31] <gsnedders> But there are blatantly bugs
  513. # [22:32] <jgraham> Nooooooooooooooooooooo
  514. # [22:33] * Quits: ROBOd (n=robod@89.122.216.38) ("http://www.robodesign.ro")
  515. # [22:33] * Quits: tantek (n=tantek@198.214.235.51)
  516. # [22:36] <jgraham> gsnedders: A fun way to implement object caches in python is to give the class that implenments the cached objects a metaclass with __call__ that looks for an object of the same type and the same properties in the cache and returns that instead
  517. # [22:37] <jgraham> So you only ever have one object of each set of properties
  518. # [22:37] <gsnedders> Fun bug: entry is deleting itself.
  519. # [22:41] <gsnedders> The thing is the cache key can be changed in the entry, so the entry needs to keep the database up-to-date too
  520. # [22:41] <gsnedders> And it was deleting itself from the database, but keeping itself in the cache
  521. # [22:41] * Joins: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  522. # [22:44] * Quits: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-171-22.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  523. # [22:52] * gsnedders wonders how many lines of code he hasn't changed in the past day
  524. # [22:54] * Quits: dglazkov (n=dglazkov@c-98-207-88-44.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  525. # [22:55] <gsnedders> So, my original implementation: FAILED (failures=10, errors=3)
  526. # [22:55] <gsnedders> Now passes
  527. # [22:56] <gsnedders> Sadly, I think I created a whole load of bugs while fixing other bugs, but those have equally been fixed.
  528. # [23:01] * Joins: tantek (n=tantek@198.214.235.51)
  529. # [23:12] * Joins: nessy (n=nessy@124-168-171-22.dyn.iinet.net.au)
  530. # [23:27] * Quits: fishd (n=darin@nat/google/x-0a0750279106dd58) (Remote closed the connection)
  531. # [23:30] * Joins: dimich_ (n=dimich@c-98-203-230-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  532. # [23:47] * Quits: dimich_ (n=dimich@c-98-203-230-54.hsd1.wa.comcast.net)
  533. # [23:47] * Philip` wonders what's a good tool for drawing diagrams for LaTeX
  534. # [23:48] <jgraham> Philip`: in what sense for LaTeX?
  535. # [23:48] <Philip`> jgraham: To be embedded into a document which is written in LaTeX
  536. # [23:49] <karlcow> hmmmm take any tools which generates eps files
  537. # [23:49] <Philip`> and to use proper LaTeX fonts so it doesn't look ugly
  538. # [23:49] <jgraham> Philip`: I used inkscape with some problems
  539. # [23:50] <karlcow> Philip`: if you got a mac, I would recommend OmniGraffle
  540. # [23:51] * Philip` has access to a Mac, but there's no way he'd ever spend any money on software ever
  541. # [23:52] <Philip`> (Well, except for games)
  542. # [23:52] <heycam> there are ttf versions of computer modern roman somewhere; you could just use those in whatever diagramming tool you end up using
  543. # [23:52] <karlcow> you can download it and it will be usable for x days
  544. # [23:53] * Philip` might just put up with xfig's UI, since it seems to be possible to make it work nicely
  545. # [23:53] <Philip`> karlcow: I also don't want software which will expire and prevent me from modifying my data at any point in the future :-)
  546. # [23:53] <karlcow> :)
  547. # [23:53] * karlcow found that but has no idea if it's good or not http://www.ctan.org/tex-archive/help/Catalogue/entries/pgf.html
  548. # [23:55] <jgraham> heycam: Will ttf versions of computer modern work in diagrams embedded in LaTeX
  549. # [23:55] * jgraham guesses it depends on the exact toolchain
  550. # [23:57] <heycam> jgraham, yeah, if you just convert them to paths
  551. # [23:57] <heycam> e.g. just by exporting to pdf from inkscape
  552. # [23:58] <heycam> but if you want to keep them as text, not sure
  553. # [23:58] <jgraham> Maybe that's how I got inkscape to work in the end inkscape->pdf->eps
  554. # [23:59] * heycam just
  555. # [23:59] <heycam> er
  556. # [23:59] * heycam just \includegraphics{}s the pdf itself
  557. # [23:59] <jgraham> Does that work if you aren't using pdflatex?
  558. # [23:59] <heycam> probably not :)
  559. # Session Close: Sun Mar 15 00:00:00 2009

The end :)