/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-16 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat May 16 00:00:00 2009
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:39] <gsnedders> http://twitter.com/brucel/statuses/1810429136
  12. # [00:39] <gsnedders> Oh lovely.
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  18. # [00:51] <Philip`> Just for reference purpopses: the context for jgraham's remarks was http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019767.html, which seems to me to be a rant
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  20. # [00:52] <Philip`> which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in this case it makes reasonable debate seem very hard to achieve
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  22. # [01:02] <Philip`> (...At least, I assume that was the context)
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  33. # [01:22] <gsnedders> Oh how boring. ian.hixie.ch has changed to something far less interesting.
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  35. # [01:25] <hober> Hixie, re your tweet: http://microformats.org/wiki/hcard#Organization_Contact_Info
  36. # [01:30] <Hixie> @hober yeah but what do you do in real vCard?
  37. # [01:30] <Hixie> i can't find any docs on it
  38. # [01:30] <Hixie> what do hCard processors do when ouputting vCard?
  39. # [01:30] <Hixie> that uses that pattern?
  40. # [01:37] <Hixie> hmm, Address Book.app outputs N:;;;;
  41. # [01:38] <Hixie> fine i'll do that
  42. # [01:38] <gsnedders> Address Book.app does some weird things
  43. # [01:38] <Hixie> what other apps export vcard that i have access to?
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  60. # [02:38] <Hixie> woo, there's now an algorithm for going from HTML to vCard http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#extracting-a-vcard
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  80. # [04:33] <Hixie> olliej: with() is useful in some very rare cases where you know exactly what the object's properties are and you want to do a lot of work with them (e.g. matrix maths)
  81. # [04:35] <othermaciej> using with() for matrix math would be terrible
  82. # [04:37] <olliej> Hixie: with is never ever good
  83. # [04:37] <olliej> Hixie: it defeats all optimisations, and results in absolutely absurd semantics
  84. # [04:38] <olliej> Hixie: and you need to know all properties on the object and its prototype chain
  85. # [04:39] <othermaciej> with is pretty much a bad idea in every possible way
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  120. # [10:19] <jgraham> Philip`: It was more emails like http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019751.html which say things like "I will never support microdata, because no case has
  121. # [10:19] <jgraham> been made for its existence.
  122. # [10:19] <jgraham> "
  123. # [10:21] <jgraham> I assumed it was uncontroversial that saying you would never support something implied you were not prepared to consider arguments why you should support something
  124. # [10:22] <jgraham> (in this case one could, perhaps, claim that "because no case has been made" allows for the possibility of a case being made, but that is clearly false satement because a case was made, just one that Shelley happeed to disagree with)
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  127. # [10:27] <hsivonen> jgraham: I tried to point out in the CSSquirrel comments that if you say you don't care about the outcome, people pribably should be expected to focus on the feedback of people who do care about the outcome
  128. # [10:28] <hsivonen> jgraham: similarly, if you declare you won't budge from position X, it's not worthwhile for others to try to convinve you to accept an alternative solution X'.
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  132. # [10:34] <othermaciej> CSSquirrel?
  133. # [10:36] <hsivonen> othermaciej: http://www.cssquirrel.com/2009/05/04/comic-update-html5-manners/#comment-23463
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  140. # [11:04] <hsivonen> hmm. AOL not on the list at http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List
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  144. # [11:09] <Philip`> jgraham: Oh, okay
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  151. # [11:20] <Hixie> i hope the vcard output algorithm makes sense
  152. # [11:20] <Hixie> it's not quite what i implemented in JS
  153. # [11:21] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2009May/0038.html (last paragraph)
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  155. # [11:24] <Philip`> Hixie: It seems to be defined at a very inconvenient level of abstraction - someone implementing the vCard output would have to have access to the DOM and the item-extraction algorithm, rather than it being layered on top of a generic microdata extraction algorithm
  156. # [11:25] <Hixie> how so?
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  158. # [11:29] <Philip`> Someone who's writing a generic microdata parsing library doesn't want to have to implement the vCard output (and iCal and BibTeX and ...) themselves, because the point is to be generic and not hard-code lots of vocabularies
  159. # [11:30] <Hixie> sure but what's dom-dependent about it?
  160. # [11:30] <Philip`> and someone who's working with vCard data will want to use the generic microdata parsing library rather than rewriting everything themselves, and doesn't want to have to hook into internal details of the library (like whether the <title> element is going to be exposed via DOM or SAX or something else)
  161. # [11:32] <Hixie> does the same not apply to the RDF output?
  162. # [11:32] <Philip`> so there should be some clearly specified API between them, e.g. using JSON as an intermediate format (and giving a single JSON-to-vCard or RDF-to-vCard or something-else-to-vCard conversion algorithm, depending on what API is chosen)
  163. # [11:33] <Hixie> that seems excessively round-about
  164. # [11:33] <Philip`> Hixie: The RDF output is not vocabulary-specific, so that should go in the generic library (which can happily deal with all the issues like extracting <title> elements)
  165. # [11:34] <Hixie> i guess i could just define things that such an API is required to expose
  166. # [11:35] <Philip`> I don't think it has to be a serialised API like JSON, but it seems useful to have some clearly specified API that can be easily implemented by the generic library and is powerful enough to let vocabulary designers do whatever they want without having to modify the generic library
  167. # [11:36] <Hixie> which would be the list of top-level items, for each item: types, properties; for each property: names, the value, and if value is an item, or else if tag is time, or else if tag is a url element; the document's title;
  168. # [11:36] <Hixie> (that's it so far i think)
  169. # [11:37] <Philip`> And the document's current address
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  171. # [11:37] <Hixie> and the json and rdf outputs would need slightly more (e.g. json output needs to be able to walk the dom to find the applicable citation)
  172. # [11:37] <Hixie> well presumably the document's current address is input to the microdata api
  173. # [11:37] <Hixie> not output
  174. # [11:37] <Hixie> assuming this isn't a scripted environment
  175. # [11:38] * sid0|afk is now known as sid0
  176. # [11:38] * Philip` thinks the JSON and RDF outputs are fine where they are, because they're not vocabulary-specific and so we don't have to worry about the scalability of implementing a thousand of them in the library
  177. # [11:53] <Hixie> i wonder why iCalendar isn't an official RFC2425 profile
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  181. # [12:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: I also think that microdata-to-Foo conversion algorithms should operate on a microdata data model instead of escaping into the DOM on an ad hoc basis
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  183. # [12:05] <Hixie> it's not really ad hoc
  184. # [12:06] <Hixie> assuming you're not talking about json or rdf outputs
  185. # [12:06] <Hixie> which kinda are
  186. # [12:06] <Hixie> what do you think of the new list at http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#converting-html-to-other-formats
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  189. # [12:24] <hsivonen> Hixie: the bulleted list lacks the node language of nodes that are itemprops
  190. # [12:25] <hsivonen> Hixie: btw, my on-list comment about 'about' and <figure> is likely misguided
  191. # [12:26] <Hixie> do i ever export the node language?
  192. # [12:26] <hsivonen> you did the day before yesterday
  193. # [12:26] * hsivonen re-reads
  194. # [12:26] <Hixie> that's only in the RDF or JSON serialisations
  195. # [12:26] <Hixie> which aren't covered by this
  196. # [12:26] <Hixie> and need far more than the list says
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  198. # [12:26] <Hixie> RDF only i think, in fact
  199. # [12:27] <hsivonen> "Otherwise, if element is not one of the URL property elements, let value be a plain literal, with the language information set from the language of the element, if it is not unknown."
  200. # [12:27] <hsivonen> yes, RDF only
  201. # [12:28] <Hixie> (i've added it to the list but commented out)
  202. # [12:30] <hsivonen> special-casing "about" makes me wonder if there should be a dedicated boolean attribute itemabout for flagging the aboutness node instead of having a reserved word
  203. # [12:31] <hsivonen> aside: why oh why didn't microformats.org write algorithms like this down in 2006 or so?
  204. # [12:32] <Hixie> all of the one-word keywords are "reserved words"
  205. # [12:33] <othermaciej__> I would love microformats so much more if they'd defined parsing rules and clear data extraction algorithms
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  207. # [12:33] <Hixie> i guess "about" is still magical even for item=""
  208. # [12:33] <Hixie> though only for RDF
  209. # [12:33] <Hixie> i don't want to add an attribute just to make it possible to name bnodes in the rdf serialisation, that's excessive
  210. # [12:34] <Hixie> (it's not like most people are going to be exporting to rdf, imho)
  211. # [12:34] <othermaciej> do generic RDF tools do anything useful?
  212. # [12:34] <othermaciej> (I honestly don't know)
  213. # [12:35] <othermaciej> It does seem that in some cases people use generic RDF tools to extract information which they then process in a vocabulary-specific way
  214. # [12:35] <hsivonen> Hixie: the use case I'm thinking of is not naming bnodes (not a use case) but associating key-value pairs with an external resource to give metadata about it
  215. # [12:36] <Hixie> <img itemprop=about src=... alt=""> seems better than having a magical boolean attribute
  216. # [12:36] <Hixie> the boolean attribute doesn't reduce the magic required, either
  217. # [12:36] <Hixie> sicne you still have to do error handling for dupes, not urls, etc
  218. # [12:37] <hsivonen> Hixie: ok. I withdraw my feedback about 'about'
  219. # [12:37] <Hixie> and if you exclude the RDF case, "about" isn't magic, it's just a property name common to many vocabularies
  220. # [12:37] <Hixie> othermaciej: no idea, i've been looking for end-user RDF-consuming software without any luck for the past few days
  221. # [12:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: you should make property names that start with http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/custom# non-conforming
  222. # [12:38] <othermaciej> I think the kind of tool I described couldn't possibly be an end-user tool, or at least not a good one
  223. # [12:38] <hsivonen> Hixie: otherwise, there can be conforming property names that are distinct in JSON but not in RDF
  224. # [12:39] <othermaciej> because you can't make a good UI for displaying "generic" data
  225. # [12:39] * Hixie wonders what level of arcane magic he's going to have to do to output "rdate" properly in the iCalendar output and ponders just not supporting it in a clever way, requiring that people who use its longer forms use the iCalendar syntax directly instead of using <time>
  226. # [12:39] <Hixie> hsivonen: is that a "real problem" as they say?
  227. # [12:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: as real as many other conformance reqs
  228. # [12:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: fair enough.
  229. # [12:40] <Hixie> othermaciej: at least not with current technology
  230. # [12:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: i hate having rdf-specific rules in the non-rdf part of this
  231. # [12:40] <Hixie> hsivonen: isn't there a better solution?
  232. # [12:40] <hsivonen> Hixie: also, an easy error to make if one tries to put a once extracted RDF graph back into HTML
  233. # [12:41] <hsivonen> Hixie: can't think of one right now
  234. # [12:42] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/JeniT/status/1806014001
  235. # [12:43] <Hixie> i wish we had a way for people to test how google interpreted rdfa, so that any bugs (if any) could be shaken out
  236. # [12:45] <Philip`> I also wish we had a specification that said what was a bug and what was correct
  237. # [12:46] <Hixie> i'm sure shane and the rdfa community will address your comments and fix the problems you pointed out
  238. # [12:46] <Hixie> hsivonen: ok, banned those prefixes
  239. # [12:46] <hsivonen> Hixie: thanks
  240. # [12:47] <Hixie> ok since i'm not doing magic for rdate, icalendar output is going to be easy
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  244. # [12:52] <Philip`> Hixie: The comments seem unresolvable in an HTML4+RDFa specification, and nobody has shown great interest in writing an HTML5+RDFa specification, so I don't know where the comments would get addressed
  245. # [12:54] <Philip`> At least Shane's statement that "The goal here is that all implementations extract the same collection of triples from a given document." sounds exactly like the goal of an HTML5+RDFa specification (as long as it's not restricted to valid documents, or to static documents)
  246. # [12:54] <Hixie> well i presume he'd have to define HTML4 parsing and DOM representations
  247. # [12:55] <Philip`> I think that counts as "unresolvable" :-p
  248. # [12:56] <Hixie> it's obviously not unresolvable since we did it for html5
  249. # [12:56] <Hixie> and it's defined for microdata
  250. # [12:56] <Hixie> so it seems reasonable to expect the same of other proposals
  251. # [12:56] <Hixie> i don't see how you could achieve his stated goals, either
  252. # [12:56] <Philip`> s/unresolvable/practically unresolvable/
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  254. # [12:57] <Hixie> it's impractical not to resolve it
  255. # [12:57] <Philip`> Sure
  256. # [12:58] <Philip`> so HTML4+RDFa is impractical
  257. # [12:58] <Philip`> and seems quite pointless, because all it really provides is a DTD, and you could use an XHTML DTD instead if you just want validation
  258. # [12:59] <hsivonen> Philip`: it provides a DTD and it tells you to ignore certain output of the DTD-based validator
  259. # [13:00] <Philip`> But his stated goal suggests that he might be receptive to an HTML5+RDFa specification, since it's the only way to achieve his stated goals, so that suggests it could be possible to move in the right direction in the future
  260. # [13:01] <Philip`> s/repetition//
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  262. # [13:04] <Philip`> (But that seems unlikely to happen unless someone familiar with HTML5 writes it, because anyone else would find it very hard to understand the HTML5 processing model in enough detail without spending ages learning it)
  263. # [13:05] <Hixie> it would not be inappropriate for people working on core w3c technologies to learn how the web's most core language works
  264. # [13:08] <othermaciej> I'm not sure everyone agrees that HTML is the Web's most core language
  265. # [13:08] <Hixie> most deployed language?
  266. # [13:09] <othermaciej> that seems harder to dispute :-)
  267. # [13:09] <Philip`> Defining an HTML processing model for RDFa is kind of diving in the deep end - it's not a nice gradual learning curve, and so people are more likely to ignore it and stick with what they're familiar with
  268. # [13:09] <othermaciej> (though people have certainly tried to claim that public deployment numbers are not representative of what you'd find if you could survey intranets)
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  271. # [13:14] <Hixie> othermaciej: imho "the web" doesn't include intranets.
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  273. # [13:15] <hsivonen> http://www.guha.com/mcf/vocab.html
  274. # [13:15] <othermaciej> I would generally agree with that sentiment, if only for methodological reasons
  275. # [13:15] <hsivonen> Hixie: but it does include your local hard drive?
  276. # [13:15] <othermaciej> it is very easy to make unverifiable claims about the contents of intranets
  277. # [13:15] <Hixie> no, why would it?
  278. # [13:16] <othermaciej> I do think specific claims about intranet content that are supported by evidence may be worth considering
  279. # [13:16] <hsivonen> Hixie: my memory may be failing me
  280. # [13:17] <othermaciej> even if not at the same weight as the public Web
  281. # [13:17] <othermaciej> since a controlled environment has less need for open-ended interoperability
  282. # [13:17] <Philip`> hsivonen: You should use ECC memory
  283. # [13:17] <hsivonen> Philip`: or krijnh's logs
  284. # [13:17] <othermaciej> so maybe it's just me, but Sam often seems to have more interesting things to say about what's going on in the HTML WG on his blog than in public-html
  285. # [13:22] <Hixie> ok, icalendar output support is done
  286. # [13:22] <Hixie> i'll do bibtex probably sunday
  287. # [13:23] <Hixie> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#icalendar
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  289. # [13:31] <Hixie> nn
  290. # [13:31] <hsivonen> Hixie: my menory was failing, sorry: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20081201#l-255
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  294. # [13:45] <hsivonen> http://benlog.com/articles/2009/05/14/incremental-benefit-and-bursts-of-innovation/
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  324. # [19:36] <gsnedders> Maths help needed: if f(x) = cos 2x, find f'(\frac{2\pi}{3})
  325. # [19:36] <gsnedders> f'(x) = -2sin 2x, right?
  326. # [19:37] * Quits: myakura (n=myakura@p3087-ipbf6705marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp) ("Leaving...")
  327. # [19:37] <gsnedders> And then if I set x = \frac{2\pi}{3} I don't get the answer in the back of book when I enter it in to my calculator :(
  328. # [19:37] <Philip`> gsnedders: http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cos+2x
  329. # [19:38] <Philip`> That says d/dx(cos(2 x)) = -2 sin(2 x)
  330. # [19:38] <gsnedders> i.e., is agrees with me
  331. # [19:39] <Philip`> then http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sin%284pi%2F3%29 says -sqrt(3)/2
  332. # [19:39] <Philip`> so you'd get sqrt(3)
  333. # [19:39] <gsnedders> Where does the negative go?
  334. # [19:39] <Philip`> Which negative?
  335. # [19:40] <gsnedders> -sqrt(3)/2
  336. # [19:40] <Philip`> It goes at the front
  337. # [19:40] <gsnedders> :P
  338. # [19:40] <Philip`> Do you mean something else?
  339. # [19:40] <gsnedders> Why is the final answer not negative?
  340. # [19:40] <Philip`> Because you multiply by -2
  341. # [19:41] <gsnedders> Now, cheating and using wolfram alpha doesn't actually help me learn this.
  342. # [19:41] <Dashiva> You can still use Philip`'s steps
  343. # [19:41] <Philip`> I don't think you need Wolfram Alpha to tell you that -2 * -1/2 = +1
  344. # [19:41] <gsnedders> OK, no
  345. # [19:41] <Dashiva> Derivative, then calculate for just sin, then multiply by -2
  346. # [19:42] <Dashiva> I suppose the hard step is memorizing sin for the various pi thirds :)
  347. # [19:43] <gsnedders> Oh, duh
  348. # [19:43] <gsnedders> My calculator is in degrees
  349. # [19:43] <Philip`> Memorising sin is easy - it's always 0, 1, 1/2 or sqrt(3)/2, or sometimes negative, and sin(pi/3)=sin(30 deg)=1/2 and all the others fit around it in the obvious places
  350. # [19:44] <Philip`> Um
  351. # [19:44] <Philip`> That's not right is it
  352. # [19:44] <Philip`> sin(pi/6)=sin(30 deg)=1/2
  353. # [19:45] <gsnedders> Hmm, Wolfram|Alpha says it's raining here. I would disagree with that, looking out of the window.
  354. # [19:45] <Dashiva> Philip`: Yeah, I use the same rule
  355. # [19:45] <Dashiva> And cos is just sin flipped
  356. # [19:47] <Philip`> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=%ef%bf%bf - that's the most useful response I've ever seen to that query string
  357. # [19:47] <Philip`> It's a little silly how the encodings table is an image, though
  358. # [19:48] <Dashiva> But it isn't correct, is it? :)
  359. # [19:48] <Philip`> Why not?
  360. # [19:49] <Dashiva> It should give pages about input sanitation and such
  361. # [19:50] <Philip`> Why should it do that? It's not a search engine
  362. # [19:51] <Dashiva> I wouldn't expect a search engine to, though
  363. # [19:51] <gsnedders> Dashiva: What would you expect a search engine to do? Throw a fatal error?
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  365. # [19:52] <Philip`> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=p%3Dnp - alas, there are some things it can't compute yet
  366. # [19:52] <Dashiva> gsnedders: Give pages about BOM
  367. # [19:52] <Dashiva> "Functionality for this topic is under development..."
  368. # [19:52] <Dashiva> They'll have the answer soon, in other words
  369. # [19:52] <gsnedders> hah
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  373. # [19:55] <Philip`> Hmm, given a short list of primes it lists primes as a possible closed form, but it doesn't work for more complex sequences like what http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/ does :-(
  374. # [20:02] <gsnedders> Our maths teacher showed us that in class
  375. # [20:04] <Philip`> I've found it to be very occasionally very useful
  376. # [20:06] <gsnedders> (This was the former head of maths, now retired, who always went off on tangents from his lesson plans, and taught us an amazing amount of stuff in the course out of order, and an amazing amount of stuff totally randomly)
  377. # [20:11] <gsnedders> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Ben+Lomond — I always thought it was a mountain…
  378. # [20:14] * Joins: drostie (n=hopkins@5ED17066.cable.ziggo.nl)
  379. # [20:23] <Philip`> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=whatwg.org - "daily visitors: ~50,000" - really?
  380. # [20:26] <Philip`> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=w3.org - the "HTML element hierarchy" looks pretty
  381. # [20:34] <gsnedders> Philip`: Well, it says SimplePie.org has 61,000 per day, whereas stats tracker on the website says around 800
  382. # [20:36] <hsivonen> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=python
  383. # [20:38] <hsivonen> Philip`: why am I not seeing daily visitor stats on wolfram|alpha?
  384. # [20:40] <Philip`> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sin%282x%29+cos%282y%29+from+0+to+10 - the plots are nice, but I can't work out how to change the y range
  385. # [20:41] <Philip`> hsivonen: I get "Web statistics for all of whatwg.org:" in the third bit, which has the visitor stats
  386. # [20:44] <hsivonen> 3rd bit?
  387. # [20:49] <Philip`> The third section in the results page
  388. # [20:57] <hsivonen> I see no such thing
  389. # [20:59] <Philip`> Hmm
  390. # [21:00] <Philip`> What do you see?
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  398. # [21:35] * gsnedders has a breakneck revision timetable for maths
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  400. # [21:35] <gsnedders> This is gonna be fun :\
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  405. # [22:05] <Hixie> hsivonen: heh, that irc log had above-average quality of content
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  409. # [22:26] <Hixie> hsivonen: validator.nu bug report http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8kfux/why_everyone_should_dump_ie/c09layo
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  411. # [22:28] * gsnedders shouldn't try and use Wolfram|Alpha to help him with maths, because he doesn't have it on Thursday
  412. # [22:28] <Philip`> Hixie: Sounds like you need to make the spec smaller
  413. # [22:33] <gsnedders> (Though having some method of calculating stuff that shows all the steps to get there is damned useful)
  414. # [22:37] <Hixie> Philip`: hah
  415. # [22:38] <gsnedders> Hixie: Maybe remove the parsing section?
  416. # [22:39] <Philip`> Hixie: You could remove all the whitespace
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  418. # [22:40] <gsnedders> I mean, html5lib's serializer has an option for that :P
  419. # [22:41] <Hixie> i think i use that, no?
  420. # [22:47] <Philip`> There's all the wasted space between words too
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  422. # [22:49] <Philip`> You don't need a whole character for that, you could just CamelCase everything
  423. # [22:51] <gsnedders> Hixie: no, you don't
  424. # [22:52] <Hixie> k
  425. # [22:52] <gsnedders> It will, however, make the index diffs totally unreadable
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  427. # [23:12] <Hixie> they're not particularly readable now
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  432. # [23:36] * Quits: Lachy (n=Lachlan@124-171-255-145.dyn.iinet.net.au) ("This computer has gone to sleep")
  433. # [23:40] * Quits: dolske (n=dolske@firefox/developer/dolske)
  434. # Session Close: Sun May 17 00:00:00 2009

The end :)