/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2009-05-29 / end

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# Session Start: Fri May 29 00:00:00 2009
# Session Ident: #whatwg
# [00:00] <roc> video question... The spec says "When the current playback position reaches the end of the media resource when the direction of playback is forwards, then the user agent must follow these steps:"
# [00:01] <roc> does "reaches the end of the media resource" include reaching the end due to seeking?
# [00:03] <Hixie> yes
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# [00:04] <Philip`> Hmm, Chromium seems to be the only thing that's trivially available on Gentoo, but it complains "version `GLIBCXX_3.4.9' not found (required by ./chrome)" :-(
# [00:04] <gsnedders> Hmm, I need to disable an onclick event when a click on an interactive element triggers it
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# [00:05] <Hixie> it's so funny seeing jd defend flash everywhere
# [00:06] <Philip`> Oh, right, it works fine if I change LD_LIBRARY_PATH to point to gcc-4.3.2, so that's okay
# [00:06] <Hixie> i think the fact that so many people are so happy to hear they might be able to get rid of flash pretty much sums up how frustrating his job must be
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# [00:06] * gsnedders wonders how to do this
# [00:07] <Philip`> olliej: Ooh, it's very fast in Chromium, except I don't know how fast because it doesn't render any of the text saying how fast it is
# [00:08] <gsnedders> Is there any way to tell if something has a default action?
# [00:08] <Hixie> i'm also amused by the people trying to get Microsoft to admit to working on <canvas>
# [00:08] <Hixie> how about getting them to admit to working on DOM2 Events or something more fundamental like that first? :-)
# [00:09] <roc> Hixie: thanks
# [00:09] * gsnedders has a strong disdain for DOM Events…
# [00:10] <roc> where are people trying to get Microsoft to admit to stuff?
# [00:10] <olliej> Philip`: oddly it's faster in webkit trunk, which shouldn't happen -- i assume mac chrome has some perf hit i'm unaware of
# [00:10] <olliej> thy used to be on par
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# [00:13] <olliej> Philip`: hehehe
# [00:13] <olliej> Philip`: performance characteristics of our gc
# [00:14] <olliej> Philip`: starts at 30ms a frame, becomes 100ms once all the zeros go away
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# [00:21] <gsnedders> http://codingforums.com/showthread.php?p=821898#post821898
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# [00:49] <Hixie> roc: e.g. http://processingjs.org/blog/?p=77
# [00:52] <roc> ta
# [00:53] <Philip`> Seems to be quite a bit of wishful thinking in how they interpret the Microsoft people's responses
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# [00:59] * jwalden concurs
# [01:01] <hober> http://www.w3.org/QA/2009/05/_watching_the_google_io.html
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# [01:16] <othermaciej_> hober: PLH has some good factual points, but I think it's the first time I have seen the W3C object to even a WD-level spec being promoted...
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# [01:18] <rubys> I don't see the word "object" in PLH's post
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# [01:20] <othermaciej> most objections are not phrased in the form "I object"
# [01:21] <othermaciej> let me put it this way, he spent more words on aspects he didn't like of Google's promotion of HTML5, than on aspects he liked
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# [01:42] <Hixie> hsivonen: yt?
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# [01:48] <Hixie> well i'll make this change and see if hsivonen complains, i guess
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# [01:57] * sayrer is reminded of
# [01:57] <sayrer> http://tomayko.com/writings/that-dilbert-cartoon
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# [02:07] <Hixie> othermaciej: your e-mail cuts off after "if Larry feels there is a resemblance between"
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# [02:09] <othermaciej> Hixie: thanks
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# [02:20] <Hixie> i'm trying
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# [03:05] <Hixie> re http://www.w3.org/QA/2009/05/_watching_the_google_io.html -- maybe i should change the title on the whatwg version to "HTML5 Draft Standard" instead of "HTML5 Draft Recommendation" to remove any confusion... :-P
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# [03:39] <theMadness> Hixie, yes please.
# [03:39] <theMadness> Change it HARD.
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# [04:30] <roc> hehe
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# [04:32] <roc> the latest Roy email is priceless
# [04:34] <ezyang> linky?
# [04:36] <othermaciej> roc: I find his "I'm the expert, stfu" attitude tiresom
# [04:37] <othermaciej> roc: and I will reply to that effect on the list so I can be Shelley-compatible in my behavior
# [04:38] <roc> yes
# [04:38] <roc> plus the assertion about how browsers are only 1% of HTML clients
# [04:38] <ezyang> gsnedders... you didn't unit test InputStream...
# [04:39] <ezyang> This is an offense punishable... by death.
# [04:39] <othermaciej> roc: I didn't even bother to argue with that
# [04:39] <othermaciej> roc: but perhaps he is counting by distinct pieces of software as opposed to by number of users or volume of use
# [04:39] <roc> yes, I think he is
# [04:40] <othermaciej> which is not completely irrational, if he is using that to support an argument that the spec should be more general
# [04:40] <roc> IIRC from threads long ago
# [04:40] <othermaciej> but he still hasn't given any concrete examples
# [04:40] <othermaciej> I'd *love* to hear how it's impossible for libwww-perl to comply with HTML5
# [04:40] <roc> it's still irrational in at least two ways
# [04:41] <roc> you've got to weight by how much an application is used, or you'll be swamped by never-used edge cases
# [04:41] <roc> also, authors test in browsers, not any of these other hypothetical applications
# [04:41] <roc> (maybe search engines, sort of)
# [04:42] <othermaciej> as I see it, software that consumes HTML falls into one of two categories:
# [04:42] <othermaciej> (a) it is intended to consume arbitrary HTML content from the Web
# [04:42] <roc> so applications that want to process HTML need to process it the way authors do, if they want to capture the author's intent
# [04:42] <othermaciej> (b) it is intended to consume only a restricted subset of the language or a specific set of documents in a controlled environment
# [04:43] <othermaciej> it seems to me that category (a) must interoperate with browsers
# [04:43] <roc> yeah
# [04:43] <othermaciej> and for category (b), the spec is irrelevant
# [04:43] <roc> right
# [04:43] <othermaciej> if they want a relevant spec, they have to spec their subset
# [04:43] <othermaciej> or they can just work ad-hoc without a spec
# [04:44] <othermaciej> though I will add, that even for category (b) it is often desirable to use standard tools to create content and ordinary browsers to test
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# [04:44] <othermaciej> so even then, it may be highly desirable to interoperate with browsers
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# [04:55] <ezyang> Sweet. Extra five fails came from change in substr() behavior
# [04:55] <ezyang> Now fixed
# [04:58] <ezyang> Sigh, Google Code authorization is acting up again.
# [04:58] <ezyang> Seriously dudes. You're google.
# [04:58] <ezyang> You eat your own dogfood. (I hope)
# [04:59] <ezyang> Strangely enough, the problem seems to fix itself when I navigate to my code.google.com/hosting/settings page :-/
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# [05:07] <othermaciej> Shelley quit again?
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# [05:12] <ezyang> Oh, awesome, the rest of the tokenizer fails are parse-error fails
# [05:16] <othermaciej> roc: I guess if I were more inclined to be indignant I would be scandalized by Roy's claim that I am "clueless" about interpreters and "don't know anything about the field" of HTML
# [05:17] <roc> you should be
# [05:17] <othermaciej> I think it just makes him look like an idiot to say things like that
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# [05:56] <olliej> othermaciej: are you claiming you know stuff about interpreters again?
# [05:56] <ezyang> Oh hey, whoops. Parse errors are not tokens
# [05:57] <othermaciej> olliej: yeah, I like to pretend
# [05:58] <olliej> othermaciej: :D
# [06:28] <ezyang> Argh foster parenting
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# [06:41] <mpilgrim> hixie: html5/reddit alert: http://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/8nzok/google_waves_goodbye_to_email/c09w4u0
# [06:41] <mpilgrim> that may overstate the situation somewhat
# [06:42] <mpilgrim> would you settle for "html5 reference on reddit"?
# [06:46] <mpilgrim> discussion of html5 video and codecs: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8np9i/youtube_experimenting_with_html5_video/
# [06:46] <mpilgrim> more video: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8nr98/daily_motion_uses_html_5_video_with_ogg_theora/
# [06:48] <mpilgrim> some meta-discussion: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8ns2l/dear_proggit_html5_is_not_programming/
# [06:54] <othermaciej> wow, lotsa discussion
# [06:54] <othermaciej> (I believe Hixie has seen at least some of those threads)
# [06:55] <othermaciej> mpilgrim: I
# [06:55] <othermaciej> I'm waiting to see how your linking of those threads can be spun as malevolent
# [06:56] <jwalden> 1. knowledge is power. 2. power corrupts. 3. ... 4. GOOGLE PROFIT!
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# [07:01] <othermaciej> Google Wave looks a lot more visually busy than the typical Google web app
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# [07:07] <roc> I wonder why these codec discussions fail to mention that the moratorium on H.264 Internet "broadcasting" fees runs out next year
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# [07:52] <othermaciej> "HTML5 Could be the OS Killer"
# [07:52] <othermaciej> apparently I'm suicidal
# [07:54] <othermaciej> at the same time: "Google shows Native Client built into HTML 5"
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# [07:59] * ezyang deals the death blow to the bug and emerges victorious
# [07:59] <ezyang> Now, time for sleep
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# [09:10] <Hixie> wait... did shelley leave the wg again?
# [09:10] <Hixie> man, she makes me dizzy
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# [09:11] <othermaciej> it seems that she is not presently a member of the HTML WG
# [09:12] <othermaciej> according to the member list on the Web
# [09:14] <Hixie> i guess it must be thursday
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# [09:16] <othermaciej> I assume she was offended by Sam pointing out that while she complains about outside-the-list snark/hostility, she also produces it
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# [09:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: no, i didn't intend the asymmetric case, i'll fix that in due course
# [09:32] <othermaciej> Hixie: are you still going to allow UAs to switch between the two options at any time?
# [09:32] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah
# [09:32] <Hixie> the requirement should be that for ports A and B
# [09:32] <othermaciej> seems like a pretty low-value option if they would have to do so synchronously for both endpoints
# [09:32] <Hixie> it doesn't have to be symmetric
# [09:32] <Hixie> for port A, either A.owner->A or B->A
# [09:32] <othermaciej> if you want to make it less of a loophole the requirement should be that A is either owned by B or by A's owner
# [09:32] <othermaciej> right
# [09:33] <Hixie> right now the text says either A.owner-> or A->B
# [09:33] <Hixie> which is bogus
# [09:33] <Hixie> the idea is still that you don't have to keep a reference to the object for it to survive long, since otherwise we expose GC
# [09:34] <Hixie> "why do the first five messages get through?" "because after that it got around to GCing your port away" isn't a conversation i ever want to have :-)
# [09:34] <othermaciej> so long as .close() gives you an out to clean up your resources, that's not so bad
# [09:34] <othermaciej> but
# [09:34] <Hixie> yeah
# [09:34] <othermaciej> I don't see why exposing the potential unpredictability of GC is so bad
# [09:34] <othermaciej> in an API to be used with concurrency
# [09:34] <othermaciej> because concurrency means you can't really have deterministic guarantees of order of operations anyway
# [09:35] <Hixie> you think this conversation is one that authors will be ok with? "why do the first five messages get through?" "because after that it got around to GCing your port away"
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# [09:35] <othermaciej> I wouldn't answer that way - I'd say "hold a reference to your MessagePort while you are using it"
# [09:35] <Hixie> i think debugging such a bug would be a nightmare
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# [09:35] <othermaciej> debugging concurrency bugs is often a nightmare
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# [09:36] <othermaciej> imagine if your code subtly depends on whether worker A receives a message from worker B or window W first
# [09:36] <othermaciej> you might never see the wrong order on "your" test system
# [09:36] <Hixie> i agree that it has intrinsic pain
# [09:36] <Hixie> adding more seems bad
# [09:36] <othermaciej> this is why I think removing nondeterminism from an API for a concurrent system is wasted effort
# [09:37] <othermaciej> well, by always either holding a reference or using .close() you can easily remove the risk
# [09:37] <othermaciej> the only difference at this point is what happens to authors who are not careful in this way
# [09:38] <othermaciej> do they get random memory leaks (result of the strong reference rule) or a bit of extra nondeterminism (result of not having such a rule at all)
# [09:38] <zcorpan_> MikeSmith: "If the area element has no href attribute, then the area represented by the element cannot be selected, and the alt attribute must be omitted."
# [09:39] <othermaciej> I don't think it's so important which happens, so I am not very concerned about the choice, as long as there is a reasonable way for content authors to do the right thing
# [09:40] <Hixie> othermaciej: i think the memory leaks are the better option since if they are found to be common, browsers will just do the more complicated alternative.
# [09:40] <Hixie> othermaciej: whereas they can't do anything about the other problem.
# [09:40] <othermaciej> I don't think you understand how complicated the alternative is
# [09:40] <othermaciej> if the leaks become a problem, I'd just violate the spec
# [09:42] <othermaciej> (but hopefully giving authors the tools to DTRT will be sufficient)
# [09:43] <Hixie> i don't think teh alternative is as bad as you make out. you just need to keep track of when port gets to zero js references, and when that happens, tell the other side the ID of the last message you received and the ID of the last message you sent, and say that you're ready to go away. when both sides do that and they both sent the same IDs, then they both know they can go away.
# [09:43] <Hixie> consider the opposite problem -- one browser with 90% market share does GC every 20 seconds, the other does GC aggressively. a page that always sends two messages only always works on the former browser, always fails on the other.
# [09:44] <othermaciej> JS isn't reference counted
# [09:44] <othermaciej> there isn't a simple concept of "get to 0 references"
# [09:44] <othermaciej> but there are also much more complex cases than you describe
# [09:44] <Hixie> s/zero js references/would otherwise get sweeped/
# [09:44] <othermaciej> consider a triangle of MessageChannels
# [09:44] <othermaciej> where the MessagePorts in each window indirectly reference each other
# [09:45] <Hixie> yeah, that's a tough one
# [09:45] <othermaciej> (keep in mind also that linkage between three heaps is still a far simpler case for distributed GC than the fully general case)
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# [09:47] <othermaciej> (btw it's easy to get 3-way linkage like that through event listener closures capturing multiple message ports in scope)
# [09:47] <othermaciej> (so it's not some bizzarre theoretical construct)
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# [09:49] <Hixie> agreed
# [09:50] <othermaciej> so the upshot is that the opposite-endpoint ownership model is not really practical if you have separate heaps for workers, thus MessagePorts are immortal until you close() one of the endpoints or the other, or leave the Document
# [09:51] <othermaciej> (er, for the last bit, I guess I should say, "until you navigate away")
# [09:52] <Hixie> well exposing the GC just doesn't seem like an option to me
# [09:52] <Hixie> i mean, we're going to extreme lengths to avoid it elsewhere
# [09:53] <othermaciej> that just means that explicit resource management is the alternative
# [09:53] <othermaciej> which is not necessarily that terrible
# [09:53] <Hixie> yeah, i guess
# [09:53] <Hixie> though people will screw that up too
# [09:53] <othermaciej> just saying, it's not super helpful for the spec to make it seem like you can count on automatic resource management of these things
# [09:56] <Hixie> hm, yes, we could make it more explicit that you should call .close() on ports
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# [10:03] <Hixie> http://beta.w3.org/standards/about.html
# [10:04] <Hixie> after 15 years of telling people the w3c wasn't in the business of writing standards but was in fact in the business of writing recommendations, they're planning on confusing everyone by changing their mind
# [10:04] <Hixie> good work w3c.
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# [10:07] <annevk2> seems like a positive change to me
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# [10:09] <Philip`> othermaciej: libwww-perl uses the HTML::HeadParser module which uses HTML::Parser and then looks for things like <meta http-equiv> and <base> and <link> and <isindex>
# [10:09] <othermaciej> most people think of them as "Standards"
# [10:09] <Philip`> (so they can be exposed via the HTTP header API)
# [10:09] <othermaciej> calling them "Recommendations" and not standards was just confusing
# [10:09] <othermaciej> Philip`: I did not know that
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# [10:11] <othermaciej> Philip`: is HTML::HeadParser // HTML::Parser unable to conform to HTML5?
# [10:11] <othermaciej> (I assume not, since people have written HTML5 parsers in perl...)
# [10:12] <Philip`> othermaciej: I see no reason that it couldn't use an HTML5 parser
# [10:12] <Philip`> (though I don't know whether that's enough to technically "conform to HTML5")
# [10:13] <othermaciej> I would guess it falls under the 'Data mining tools' conformance class
# [10:13] <othermaciej> though perhaps there should be a conformance class for reusable parser libraries
# [10:13] <othermaciej> since such a library is testable by itself usually, but can't predict what kind of software will use it
# [10:14] <Philip`> Seems hard to specify since the libraries will all have different output formats
# [10:14] <othermaciej> Philip`: anyway - thanks for pointing that out, though overall I still think Roy is wrong in his assertions, and incredibly rude
# [10:14] <othermaciej> well, XML has rules for XML processors and people are able to determine whether XML parser libraries conform
# [10:15] <Philip`> I guess it would have to specify equivalence between the conceptual DOM created by the spec's algorithm, and the concrete DOM/SAX/ElementTree/etc created by implementations
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# [10:15] <Philip`> or just leave it undefined and tell people to use common sense
# [10:18] <Philip`> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://robotstxt.org.ru/rurobots/yandex
# [10:18] <Philip`> "Yandex Robot supports tag noindex, which prohibits job Yandex index queries (office) of the text. At the beginning of a service fragment is <noindex>, but in the end - </ noindex>, Yandex, and will not index the site text."
# [10:19] <zcorpan_> apache indexes would benefit from using an html5 parser here http://simon.html5.org/test/html/parsing/fragment/content-model-flag/
# [10:20] <zcorpan_> (it shows just "setting innerHTML" instead of the correct "setting innerHTML on <title>")
# [10:20] <zcorpan_> "setting innerHTML on"
# [10:21] <zcorpan_> nowadays i try to remember escaping < as < in titles to cater for the apache bug but it would be nice if it worked correctly
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# [10:29] <zcorpan_> Hixie: how was http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=6586 fixed?
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# [10:30] <Hixie> it was fixed lng ago
# [10:30] <Hixie> i just forgot to mark the bug as fixed
# [10:30] <Hixie> spec now says:
# [10:30] <Hixie> # When a Document is in quirks mode, margins on HTML elements at the top or bottom of the initial containing block, or the top of bottom of td or th elements, are expected to be collapsed to zero.
# [10:31] <Hixie> othermaciej: your e-mail to roy had an incomplete sentence again
# [10:31] <Hixie> "If they can only handle a defined subset inside their walled garden, then they are not conforming implementations. If they are"
# [10:31] <othermaciej> Hixie: in case you coudn't tell, I edit out of order a lot
# [10:31] <zcorpan_> Hixie: the spec quotes that exact text and says it's wrong
# [10:32] <zcorpan_> er
# [10:32] <othermaciej> *couldn't
# [10:32] <zcorpan_> the bug
# [10:32] <Hixie> othermaciej: so do i, but then i proof-read :-P
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# [10:32] <othermaciej> I do too - had a real bad headache today though
# [10:32] <othermaciej> surprised I was able to be coherent at all
# [10:32] <othermaciej> I should do a TL;DR reply to myself
# [10:32] <Hixie> zcorpan_: no, the text in the bug is different
# [10:32] <othermaciej> because in all the arguing, I do have an interesting main point
# [10:32] <Hixie> othermaciej: ah, sorry to hear that
# [10:32] <Hixie> about the headache, not the point
# [10:33] <othermaciej> which is that HTML processors either (a) are expected to work with general public Web content, in which case they must interoperate with browsers, or (b) work with a restricted subset of content (either conforming to some subset rule or in a walled garden) in which case the spec is irrelevant to them
# [10:35] <zcorpan_> Hixie: ok it's different, but i don't see how it collapses when the body has a border
# [10:36] <Hixie> zcorpan_: why would the border affect it?
# [10:36] <Hixie> the margins just collapse to zero whatever else is there
# [10:36] <Hixie> with whatever else, i mean
# [10:37] <zcorpan_> Hixie: the body is not the initial containing block, and margin collapsing doesn't happen when there's a border, so as i read it it wouldn't collapse when there's a border
# [10:38] <zcorpan_> Hixie: instead the body's margins would collapse, which they shouldn't
# [10:38] <Hixie> oh it should say top or bottom of the <body>, not the ICB?
# [10:38] <zcorpan_> yeah
# [10:41] * dave_levin_ is now known as dave_levin
# [10:41] <Mrmil> Dear WHATWG, I'm yet-another-I-want-to-help person and I would like to ask you kindly for your feedback.
# [10:41] <Mrmil> I'm working on a case-study, a common web presentation homepage written in HTML 5, which (when finished) can get chopped up into smaller parts and form a tutorial.
# [10:41] <Mrmil> Please note it's not finished at all, many things need to be done and I need to educate myself, too. :) If you are interested, you can find it here: http://server.ebrana.cz/olda/_apps/html5/ .
# [10:41] <Mrmil> It's a temporary URL until I/we decide what to do with it next.
# [10:41] <Mrmil> I'm planning on adding more feature to this page, so I'll post here again when done. If you want to provide feedback, please email me at vetesnik@mrmil.cz. And yeh, I'll buy you a cup of coffee. :) Thanks.
# [10:42] <zcorpan_> mmm coffee
# [10:43] <zcorpan_> Mrmil: http://gsnedders.html5.org/outliner/
# [10:44] <Mrmil> zcorpan_: Ooo, cool, thanks!
# [10:44] <zcorpan_> Mrmil: <html lang="cs"> - shouldn't it be "en"?
# [10:45] <Mrmil> zcorpan_: Yes, I'm czech so I forgot to change it.
# [10:45] <Mrmil> zcorpan_: done
# [10:45] <hsivonen> Philip`: I thought the correspondence of DOM/SAX/ElementTree etc. to infoset is already understood
# [10:45] <zcorpan_> <section id="header"> - without checking the outline or further in the source, knee-jerk reaction is that this should be <header>
# [10:46] <hsivonen> Philip`: and HTML5 defines how to coerce the output of the parsing algorithm to infoste
# [10:47] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: still people say "HTML5 talks about DOM, there are tools that don't use a DOM, hence HTML5 is useless for those tools"
# [10:47] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: It's a sign of people not having read the spec carefully
# [10:48] <zcorpan_> Mrmil: the <h1>Navigation</h1> should probably go inside the <nav>
# [10:48] <jgraham> Mrmil: <p class="skipLinks"> should be unnecessary (the whole paragraph)
# [10:49] <zcorpan_> <div id="wrapper"> is unnecessary too (style <body> instead)
# [10:49] <jgraham> <section id="content"> -> <article> maybe
# [10:49] <jgraham> <section id="sidebar"> -> <aside> aiui
# [10:49] <Philip`> hsivonen: Coercion to infosets doesn't seem an ideal way to define equivalence, since the coercion can lose information
# [10:50] <jgraham> Philip`: I'm still not sure I understand what information is lost
# [10:50] <zcorpan_> Mrmil: i would probably have a single <nav> and have subheadings for quicknav and language
# [10:50] <Philip`> jgraham: It can e.g. drop attributes whose name starts with "xmlns"
# [10:50] <zcorpan_> s/subheadings/subsections/
# [10:50] <jgraham> Philip`: Oh yeah, I had forgotten that.
# [10:51] <hsivonen> Philip`: I think common sense should be enough to fill in the gaps given the stream to DOM spec and the coercion spec, but I guess it could be more explicit
# [10:51] <zcorpan_> Mrmil: <hr class="displayNone"> - clearly presentational abuse of class
# [10:51] <hsivonen> Philip`: is there any implementor who hasn't been able to figure out how to map the non-infoset parts of the DOM to an arbitrary non-infoset-enforcing API?
# [10:51] <Philip`> Maybe it should be explicit that you should use common sense
# [10:52] <hsivonen> common sense is rare, though :-(
# [10:52] <Philip`> e.g. add a conformance class for "HTML parser library" and require that it has a common-sense equivalence to the DOM produced by the specified algorithm
# [10:52] <jgraham> zcorpan_: Presenational "abuse" of class isn't forbidden is it?
# [10:52] <zcorpan_> How to read this specification: use common sense
# [10:52] <jgraham> (but I think that <hr> should go)
# [10:52] <Mrmil> zcorpan_: I was wondering about that, I'll switch it to the <nav>
# [10:53] <hsivonen> Philip`: common-sense equivalance or where prohibited, using the coercion section's rules
# [10:53] <zcorpan_> jgraham: no it's not forbidden but it's not good practice
# [10:53] <Philip`> hsivonen: That sounds sensible
# [10:53] <Mrmil> jgraham: what would you suggest then?
# [10:53] <hsivonen> Philip`: I think I could formulate general rules for any API using the infoset as an aid
# [10:53] <Mrmil> jgraham: removing whole skiplinks or removing the <p>?
# [10:53] <jgraham> Mrmil: Why do you need an <hr>?
# [10:53] <hsivonen> because the problems are mostly arbitrary restrictions on what characters are allowed where
# [10:54] <zcorpan_> Mrmil: the arvhices list in the sidebar probably doesn't need <nav>
# [10:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: 1) figure out how the infoset maps to API X
# [10:55] <zcorpan_> Mrmil: <section id="footer"> - <footer>
# [10:55] <Philip`> I suppose I just think it'd be nice to be able to say "this is a conforming HTML5 parser library according to the spec", instead of having to say "this is an HTML5 parser library which could be used as part of a data mining tool and would not by itself cause the data mining tool to be non-conforming"
# [10:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: 2) Apply the DOM to infoset coercion from DOM Level 3
# [10:55] <Hixie> nn
# [10:55] <jgraham> Mrmil: Remove the skiplink. AIUI they don't work that well in practice an in theory the browser can guess rather well anyway (e.g. look for the first <article>)
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# [10:55] <hsivonen> Philip`: in step #2, pretend that restrictions on what characters are allowed where don't apply
# [10:56] <Mrmil> jgraham: hr's removed, OK, will remove skiplinks too :)
# [10:56] <jgraham> Mrmil: <section class="todo"> no need for the wrapper <div>
# [10:56] <Mrmil> jgraham: done
# [10:56] <hsivonen> Philip`: 3) Map infoset to API X per step 1
# [10:56] <Mrmil> jgraham: I use the div only for styling purpose
# [10:56] <hsivonen> Philip`: 4) If this causes API X to fail, remove failures by applying the coercion section
# [10:57] <hsivonen> Philip`: is that comprehensive enough?
# [10:58] <jgraham> Mrmil: I bet you don't really need it
# [10:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: you should make a reference to DOM Level 3 for the baseline DOM to infoset mapping that the coercion rules modify when needed
# [10:58] <Philip`> hsivonen: I guess that could work
# [10:59] <hsivonen> Philip`: works for everything but RDFa
# [10:59] <Mrmil> jgraham: you bet right, but what if I got a design with rounded corners?
# [10:59] * zcorpan_ ponders about <address> in the sidebar
# [10:59] <jgraham> Mrmil: border-radius?
# [11:00] <Mrmil> jgraham: doesn't work in ie, not implemented enough, cannot use it for production use, my superiors would kill me
# [11:00] <Mrmil> jgraham: will have to wait for css3 a little while
# [11:01] <jgraham> Mrmil: I thought this was a case study not a production site for clients who demand precidely the same look in all browsers
# [11:01] <jgraham> *precisely
# [11:01] <Mrmil> jgraham: Well it's a case study based on real demands, I don't want to make it a SCI-FI, people need real tutorials for real needs, I should've said that I guess
# [11:02] <zcorpan_> Mrmil: the link farm at the bottom should probably go in the <footer>, too
# [11:04] <Mrmil> zcorpan_: Are all the things you said alright now?
# [11:04] <hsivonen> zcorpan_: are you planning on having a mapping from Web DOM to Infoset?
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# [11:06] <hsivonen> Mrmil: it's a "paragraph" in the HTML5 sense of "paragraph"
# [11:06] <zcorpan_> Mrmil: <p><small>copyright</small></p><p><a><img>...
# [11:08] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: dunno
# [11:09] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: i guess it would be good
# [11:09] <Mrmil> zcorpan_: better now? I'm a bit confused :)
# [11:09] <zcorpan_> Mrmil: yes, now at least the copyright paragraph makes sense. :)
# [11:10] <Mrmil> zcorpan_: ok :)
# [11:11] <zcorpan_> now where's my coffee?
# [11:11] <Mrmil> zcorpan_: let me know if there are any other problems, I'll have some lunch now. Thanks for the feedback. Mmm, how do you like your coffee?
# [11:11] <zcorpan_> Mrmil: black
# [11:12] <Mrmil> zcorpan_: there you go http://www.nothinggeek.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/black-coffee.jpg
# [11:12] <zcorpan_> thanks!
# [11:12] <Mrmil> Cheers. I'll have some after lunch. Love it.
# [11:13] <Mrmil> I have a question: should there be only one <nav> on a page?
# [11:13] <zcorpan_> there's no such rule
# [11:13] <zcorpan_> but i guess it makes the page easier to navigate
# [11:14] <Philip`> zcorpan_: Maybe the TAG could give you some advice on the difference between coffee and a representation of coffee
# [11:15] <Philip`> (Seems a similar problem to http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues#httpRange-14)
# [11:15] <Mrmil> zcorpan_: On some of our presentations, we have a header-menu which goes throughout whole site, and then we have a column menu which goes into subpages for the particular page. Does that mean that both of them should be in a nav? I guess so.
# [11:19] <Mrmil> jgraham: <section id="content"> -> <article> -> I was thinking about that. Then if I have real news up there, I'll nest <article> right?
# [11:20] <Mrmil> jgraham: <section id="sidebar"> -> <aside> aiui -> I was thinking about that too, but wasn't sure
# [11:20] <jgraham> Mrmil: Well it should only be <article> if it really is an article
# [11:20] <jgraham> If it is a collection of articles <section> is probably fine
# [11:21] <Mrmil> jgraham: it's not always an article. The contents of the #content part varies - depending whether you are on homepage, detail product, checkout, etc.
# [11:21] <jgraham> Mrmil: If it is a collection of things then <section> probably works better
# [11:21] <Mrmil> jgraham: Ok.
# [11:21] <jgraham> (a collection on the same page)
# [11:23] <Mrmil> jgraham: is my #sidebar had a product catalogue, bestselling products or banners, should it still be an <aside>?
# [11:23] <jgraham> Like <section><h1>Blog posts</h1><article><h1>My first Blog Post</h1></article><article><h1>My second blog post</h1></article>
# [11:23] <jgraham> </section>
# [11:24] <jgraham> Is better than it would be with s/section/article/
# [11:24] <jgraham> But <article><h1>Product details</h1></article> is fine
# [11:25] <jgraham> Mrmil: Per spec, yes
# [11:25] <jgraham> (re: <aside>)
# [11:26] <annevk2> Hixie, reason for quitting seems other work: http://twitter.com/burningbird/status/1953228067
# [11:27] <zcorpan_> Mrmil: i usually have a sub list for that case i.e. <nav><ul><li><a>home</a><li><a>products</a><ul><li>product 1<li><a>product 2</a></ul><li><a>etc
# [11:30] <zcorpan_> Philip`: i can always print the representation of coffe to obtain a physical form
# [11:31] <zcorpan_> coffee
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# [11:44] <annevk2> "Hurray for the tracking view!" nice to know it's appreciated :)
# [11:45] <annevk2> it's unfortunate that making it better means a significant increase in complexity (afaict)
# [11:48] <jgraham> annevk2: Where are you quoting?
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# [11:50] <Philip`> jgraham: http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019982.html
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# [12:09] <Mrmil> Ok, any other suggestions for http://server.ebrana.cz/olda/_apps/html5/ ?
# [12:11] <jgraham> <section id="header"> -> <header>
# [12:12] <jgraham> You could probably remove <section id="content"> altogether
# [12:12] <jgraham> (just keep the articles)
# [12:12] <jgraham> Since you don't have another <h1> that applies to the <body>
# [12:13] <jgraham> The empty <span> elements are kind of ugly
# [12:14] <jgraham> Having both <section id="footer"> and <footer> seems odd
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# [12:19] <Mrmil> jgraham: removing <section id="content"> might be a problem due to 2-col layout and 3-col layout problems, but will try it occasionally.
# [12:20] <Mrmil> jgraham: empty span elements are ugly but they convey meaning so I have to keep the text behind it so it's accessible with images disabled. And I don't want to use <img>'s for that, that's even more ugly. :)
# [12:23] <Mrmil> jgraham: I changed section id="header" to header id="header", I need the id so I don't style every header this way. What would you suggest do with the footers? I'd change the section id="footer" into footer element but then there would be 2 footer's. The link farm is ugly but our IM dept. adds it everywhere so I have to deal with it somehow.
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# [12:27] <annevk2> http://twitter.com/gazcoop/statuses/1957781728 :)
# [12:29] <annevk2> http://twitter.com/martin_probst/statuses/1958288180 -- "HTML5 Spec is a weird document. Offline Applications section is almost just C code, nothing about intent, expected outcomes or behaviour." hard to argue with that; hopefully the introduction section addresses these concerns adequately
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# [12:44] <Mrmil> jgraham: One more qustion, if I want to keep the #content section just for styling purposes then, should I make it <div> instead?
# [12:44] <hsivonen> Whew. The check-in message for r3148 is wrong.
# [12:44] <hsivonen> Spec looking good.
# [12:50] <annevk2> Google Wave looks pretty neat
# [12:50] <annevk2> little bit scared of all the probable data lock-in though
# [12:51] <zcorpan> http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/05/28/google-wave-the-full-video-from-google-io/ - drag and drop several images from desktop to web app in one go
# [12:52] <jgraham> annevk2: Isn't it supposed to be an open protocol somehow?
# [12:53] <annevk2> I was not assuming open protocol means that really
# [12:53] <annevk2> but I don't know the details of that yet
# [12:56] <jgraham> Mrmil: Re: #content it probably doesn't matter much, but per spec, if the <body> doesn't have a <h1> then it will look like an empty section in an outline
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# [12:58] <jgraham> But I'm trying to get Hixie to change that
# [12:59] <jgraham> (because I expect a bunch of people to do essentially the same thing that you have done)
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# [13:13] <gsnedders> ezyang: But all the Tokenizer test cases test it :P
# [13:14] <annevk2> I guess since they open source it it's ok
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# [13:15] <annevk2> Hopefully the network effects are still good enough if you run your own...
# [13:15] <gsnedders> ""\"\"\"\"geoffers\"\"\"@gmail com — that's certainly an interesting email address to receive from
# [13:16] <Philip`> annevk2: http://www.waveprotocol.org/ - sounds like the idea is that you can be part of the global network without being locked into Google's servers
# [13:17] <annevk2> yeah
# [13:17] <Philip`> Seems like it's basically XMPP (Jabber) with some extensions
# [13:17] <annevk2> TAG might enjoy speculating about that versioning issue :)
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# [13:17] <Philip`> so it should have the same level of openness as XMPP, with everyone able to link to each other's servers
# [13:19] <Philip`> and the extensions seem to be a way of encoding deltas for XML documents
# [13:19] <Philip`> (in a composable way)
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# [14:08] <annevk2> I wonder how HTML WG discussions would look in Wave. I have the feeling it might be pretty overwhelming.
# [14:12] <jgraham> annevk2: I was thinking the same thing
# [14:13] <Philip`> HTML WG discussions are pretty overwhelming regardless of the medium
# [14:14] <annevk2> I wonder how URL addressing works with Wave. I guess you'd have a "bot" that is invited in Wave discussions that pushes content out now and then...
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# [14:34] <Lachy> wow, I just noticed that pave the cowpaths is getting discussed again. Haven't read the whole thread yet, guessing it's going to be a lot of nonsense and misunderstanding again
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# [15:03] <gsnedders> "How do you work this [computer]? You go click! Oh fuck it, why doesn't it work, I thought if you put the thing [cursor] there [over text field] it would go there!"
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# [15:06] * gsnedders sighs
# [15:06] <gsnedders> being around my mother using a computer is stressful.
# [15:07] <hsivonen> I want to complain about HotSpot's 8000-byte limit, but you've heard it already
# [15:07] <hsivonen> seems crazy to have to tweak code around a magic number like that
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# [15:10] <jgraham> hsivonen: I promise to say nothing about proposals about charset declerations only working in the first 512/1024/some other fixed number of bytes
# [15:11] <jgraham> ;)
# [15:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: that's totally different!
# [15:12] <Philip`> Is there no command-line option to change HotSpot's behaviour?
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# [15:13] <hsivonen> Philip`: -XX:-DontCompileHugeMethods
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# [15:14] <hsivonen> Philip`: but requiring library users to know about a flag like that would not be cool
# [15:14] <hsivonen> I wonder if AppEngine has a limitation like that
# [15:15] * hsivonen starts refactoring the tokenizer loop for better perf, line numbers in C++ and better localizability
# [15:15] <gsnedders> http://codingforums.com/showthread.php?t=167485 — anyone help?
# [15:16] <hsivonen> oh, and CRLF and \0 suck too
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# [15:19] <hsivonen> maybe I can start an HTML optimization meme about how much faster HTML parser if it has no CR characters and has LFs instead
# [15:20] <hsivonen> s/parser/parses/
# [15:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: Don't know but you are describing a partial solution rather than a problem. If you describe a problem you may get better help
# [15:20] <gsnedders> jgraham: The problem is calling a function on click except when the click falls on an element with a default action!
# [15:21] <jgraham> gsnedders: I doubt it. That's part of a solution to some other problem
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# [15:21] <gsnedders> jgraham: I want to be able to click on a block to hide and show content.
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# [15:46] <hsivonen> w00t! refactoring error messages saves hundreds of byte codes
# [15:46] <hsivonen> (innocent string appends compile into a lot of byte codes)
# [15:47] <ezyang> gsnedders: Nonsense!
# [15:47] <gsnedders> ezyang: Yes, I'm a bad little boy.
# [15:47] <ezyang> gsnedders: More seriously, if there ever is a failing test-case in Tokenizer, it's nice to know that it actually is Tokenizer's fault, and not InputStream's. A test-suite goes a way to do this
# [15:47] <gsnedders> ezyang: Indeed
# [15:48] <gsnedders> ezyang: Some of it was really not very fun to debug while splitting it out with obscure bugs in the input stream
# [15:48] <ezyang> Yeah. Kudos on getting Parse Errors to mostly work
# [15:49] <ezyang> Like, that's some pretty in-depth work you did
# [15:49] <ezyang> (also, I'm ignoring parse errors completely for TreeConstructer, so you get to do it again :-)
# [15:49] <gsnedders> ezyang: But I couldn't decide how to do a test suite for something where we weren't using JSON, etc. for input. We'd probably end up disagreeing how to do it. :P
# [15:50] <gsnedders> ezyang: Have you merged back into trunk yet?
# [15:50] <ezyang> Yeah, it's all in the trunk
# [15:50] * gsnedders ought to do revision for his computing exam
# [15:50] <ezyang> Re test suite: I dunno; I think that the class is simple enough that pure PHP works
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# [15:50] <ezyang> I thought you finished your exams?
# [15:50] <gsnedders> Actually, learning for the first time some of it.
# [15:51] <gsnedders> No, computing next Thursday.
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# [15:58] <hsivonen> form feeds are almost as bad as CRs
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# [16:05] <hsivonen> http://www.builderau.com.au/news/soa/Google-Chrome-gets-HTML-video-support/0,339028227,339296704,00.htm
# [16:09] <Lachy> hsivonen, I wouldn't object to the validator issuing warnings about the use of CR or CRLF.
# [16:09] <Lachy> it's unfortunate, though, that nothing you do could ever lead to CR being abolished entirely :-(
# [16:10] <jgraham> Lachy: Windows users wouldn't like that
# [16:11] <Lachy> jgraham, only Notepad users would have serious problems with it. But they have bigger issues to worry about anyway.
# [16:11] <hsivonen> Lachy: yeah, it's unfortunate :-(
# [16:12] <hsivonen> to make speculative parsing work sanely, the only solution I've come up with makes CR slower than LF
# [16:12] <jgraham> Also, "Consider use cases" doesn't convey the spirit of "pave the cowpaths" at all
# [16:12] <Lachy> I wonder what it would take to get Microsoft to start migrating to the use of LF only
# [16:12] <Lachy> jgraham, yes it does, since pave the cowpaths is entirely about use cases
# [16:13] <Lachy> well, at least, it's meant to be
# [16:13] <jgraham> Lachy: No it's about solutions
# [16:13] <Lachy> no it's not!
# [16:13] <jgraham> It is.
# [16:13] <hsivonen> hmm. I think I'm not going to support speculative parsing and coercion into XML infoset in the same parser instance
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# [16:14] <jgraham> Lachy: There should probably be a principle like "Work from use cases" but it doesn't mean anything like "pave the cowpaths"
# [16:14] <othermaciej> I agree with jgraham
# [16:14] <othermaciej> "Work from use cases" should be a principle
# [16:15] <othermaciej> "solve real problems" is meant to convey that idea but its title is needlessly confrontational
# [16:15] <Lachy> jgraham, it's about looking at what authors are trying to do and providing solutions, possibly based on the existing solution, or providing a better solution
# [16:15] <othermaciej> "pave the cowpaths" is all about "if authors do X a lot in markup, then it's probably a good idea to enable that, or something close to it, as a feature"
# [16:15] <Lachy> othermaciej, that's not what it's meant to be.
# [16:15] <othermaciej> "as opposed to making up a wildly different solution to the same thing"
# [16:16] <othermaciej> well, I put it in the Design Principles document, back when it was a wiki page
# [16:16] <jgraham> Lachy: That is part of it but "pave the cowpaths" implies that common practice should be given more consideration than it would if it was not in common practice
# [16:16] <othermaciej> I would like to think I knew what I was saying
# [16:16] <othermaciej> it's inspired by the microformats principle of the same name
# [16:16] <jgraham> e.g. we would never invent <br/> if it wasn't already common practice but since authors want to do it, we allow it
# [16:17] <Lachy> yeah, and I remember tantek coming in here once and insisting that cowpaths was about use cases, and that that's how it's applied to microformats
# [16:18] <othermaciej> microformats wiki says:
# [16:18] <othermaciej> "Remember, we're paving the cowpaths- before you do that you have to find the cowpaths. Your examples should be a collection of real world sites and pages which are publishing the kind of data you wish to structure with a microformat. From those pages and sites, you should extract markup examples and the schemas implied therein, and provide analysis."
# [16:18] <jgraham> Lachy: It is about use cases in the sense that a cow path must be something that people want to do
# [16:18] <jgraham> and already do do
# [16:18] <Lachy> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070812#l-86
# [16:18] <othermaciej> HTML5 also considers use cases that aren't anything anyone does
# [16:18] <Lachy> jgraham, yes
# [16:18] <othermaciej> those would not be a "cow path"
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# [16:19] <annevk2> http://microformats.org/wiki/process#Document_Current_Behavior
# [16:19] <othermaciej> (or rather, aren't anything anyone does, because you can't yet)
# [16:19] <jgraham> Lachy: But it explicitly favours adopting solutions that are close to the de-facto solutions even if they are not the ones that you would design with a clean-slate approach
# [16:20] <othermaciej> anyway, I would be happy to remove the exact phrase "pave the cowpaths" if only so I never have to hear accessibility enthusiasts argue that some markup feature is or isn't a cowpath
# [16:20] <Lachy> jgraham, to the extent that the existing solutions are not significantly problematic, yes.
# [16:21] <othermaciej> but I think the idea should be captured
# [16:21] <othermaciej> and it's not the same as "work from use cases"
# [16:21] <jgraham> Lachy: Of course. "Favours" is not absolute. It is, as always, a trade off
# [16:22] <jgraham> othermaciej: I agree that e should remove the phrase "pave the cowpaths". Whilst it seems intuitive to me what it implied by such a principle it seems like it creates a great deal of confusion
# [16:22] <jgraham> Maybe it should be captured by a principle like "Support common practice" or something
# [16:23] <Lachy> How about "Analyse Existing Practices"
# [16:23] <Lachy> or what jgraham suggested
# [16:23] <jgraham> I was just about to suggest "investigate existing practice"
# [16:24] <jgraham> :)
# [16:24] <Lachy> either of those work
# [16:26] <jgraham> Maybe with the principle saying something like "[...] where the existing solution does not have significant drawbacks consider adopting it rather than forbidding it or creating something new"
# [16:27] <Lachy> that's close to Don't Reinvent the Wheel
# [16:28] <jgraham> Lachy: You would need more text at the start to explain that you have to investigate the ways that things are already being done
# [16:29] <jgraham> (my main point was that an explicit disclaimer that solutions with big problems should not be adopted wholesale)
# [16:29] <Lachy> ok
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# [16:37] <Lachy> Something like this might work as part of the description "Investigate existing, de-facto solutions to problems and evaluate them in regards to the use cases being addressed. Consider either adopting or developing solutions based on the existing practices."
# [16:38] <Lachy> (in addition to something like what jgraham suggested)
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# [16:41] <annevk2> Don't Reinvent the Wheel is more about impl
# [16:44] <annevk2> so Google does both Theora and H.264
# [16:44] <hsivonen> annevk2: if the story is correct
# [16:45] <hsivonen> annevk2: it doesn't make sense to me, though.
# [16:45] <jgraham> annevk2: pointer?
# [16:45] <annevk2> see inbox
# [16:45] <jgraham> Oh, interesting
# [16:46] <jgraham> It makes no sense to me either
# [16:46] <annevk2> http://lists.whatwg.org/pipermail/whatwg-whatwg.org/2009-May/019992.html
# [16:46] <annevk2> no sense how?
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# [16:47] <Lachy> annevk2, don't reinvent the wheel isn't about reusing implementations. It's about reusing existing solutions if they work
# [16:47] <hsivonen> annevk2: if they don't think Theora is the kind of risk that Apple and Nokia claim, why not ship Theora only and switch YouTube to Theora?
# [16:48] <annevk2> Lachy, I didn't say that
# [16:48] <Lachy> then I don't understand what you meant by "Don't Reinvent the Wheel is more about impl"
# [16:49] <jgraham> hsivonen: Possibly because H.264 would have better quality/bandwidth so they would save bandwidth costs exceeding the cost of licensing H.264
# [16:49] <Philip`> hsivonen: Because it's lower quality and rarely used and doesn't have hardware support, perhaps?
# [16:49] <annevk2> and then they'd need three versions of each video
# [16:49] <annevk2> well, two, I guess
# [16:49] <jgraham> hsivonen: Although it still requires that they ship a H.264 implementation with chrome
# [16:49] <hsivonen> Philip`: rarely used would not apply if YouTube switched :-)
# [16:49] <jgraham> annevk2: That seems like much less of a problem
# [16:50] <Philip`> hsivonen: It would if you count the number of people who are familiar with the process of encoding to Theora :-)
# [16:50] <annevk2> jgraham, hah, they get 20 hours of content every minute
# [16:50] <hsivonen> annevk2: YouTube already has 3 per video: flv, H.264 and .3gp
# [16:50] <annevk2> hsivonen, 3gp? isn't flv just streaming the H.264?
# [16:50] <jgraham> I would be somewhat unsurprised if Youtube offered Theora to theora-only browsers
# [16:51] <hsivonen> annevk2: there's traditional YouTube (flv), there's "HD" (h.264) and there's non-iPhone mobile (3gp)
# [16:51] <hsivonen> 3gp is MPEG-4 Simple Profile in small size
# [16:51] <Philip`> The BBC iPlayer seems to have ten versions of some videos
# [16:51] <annevk2> i thought they were in the process of converting the traditional stuff to h264
# [16:51] <annevk2> but okay, I guess we'll see :)
# [16:52] <hsivonen> annevk2: oh. I don't know about that.
# [16:52] <Philip`> (http://beebhack.wikia.com/wiki/IPlayer_TV#Comparison_Table)
# [16:53] <Lachy> hsivonen, there's actually standard quality, high quality, HD, plus the mobile phone versions
# [16:53] <Philip`> (They probably don't get more than about a minute of video per minute, though)
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# [16:53] <hsivonen> it's amazing that there's enough compute power in the world to encode all those videos
# [16:54] <annevk2> http://twitter.com/circa1977/statuses/1960304218 -- "... HTML will always be XML subset." look, someone is wrong on the internet!
# [16:54] <Lachy> I assume YouTube also keeps the original uploaded videos around too, for any future conversions
# [16:54] <hsivonen> I wonder if they are shipping both in order to demonstrate their ability to jettison h.264 to MPEG-LA
# [16:55] <hsivonen> anyway, very cool that they'll ship theora
# [16:55] <Philip`> hsivonen: It sounds like you seriously underestimate the amount of compute power in the world :-)
# [16:56] * hsivonen wonders what the carbon footprint of YouTube is
# [16:57] <Philip`> hsivonen: If it's 20 hours of video per minute, you only need 1200 machines doing real-time conversion (and I guess you can do better than real-time on modern CPUs), multiplied by however many versions of videos you've got
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# [16:57] <annevk2> I guess H.264 won't be done via FFmpeg
# [16:57] <hsivonen> Philip`: re-encoding the back catalog is a lot of minutes
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# [16:59] <Philip`> hsivonen: I wonder if they only bother converting the relatively popular videos to newer formats
# [16:59] <Philip`> (I guess there are lots of videos that had 12 views a year ago and have never been looked at since)
# [17:01] <jgraham> There are a rather large number of videos that are audio + a static picture (e.g. some copyright-infringing music "videos")
# [17:01] * Philip` would kind of guess that Google has lots of spare CPU capacity since most of its work will be limited by network I/O instead
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# [17:01] <Philip`> though I could be totally wrong
# [17:02] <Philip`> jgraham: It's weird that a video sharing site is the most popular way to share music
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# [17:02] <hsivonen> I wonder if it's possible to recode lazily on demand
# [17:03] <Lachy> Philip`, it's probably because there are no popular social networking sites built around the idea of publishing and listening to audio
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# [17:05] <Philip`> hsivonen: As in real-time encoding and streaming? That sounds like it'd be entirely incompatible with their usual architecture of serving videos as plain files from caching HTTP servers, so I guess it'd be quite a pain to do
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# [17:08] <Lachy> I doubt on-demand encoding would work given the number of simultaneous views they get across all their videos.
# [17:08] <Lachy> but they would probably prioritise re-encoding of the back catalogue based on popularity or some other metrics
# [17:08] <Philip`> Lachy: I assume the idea is they could recode the video on demand when somebody first views it, and then save the recoded output to send to any other viewers
# [17:09] <Philip`> which would mean everybody would be able to see the recoded version of every video with no delay, without requiring a giant batch conversion before switching to the new format
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# [17:13] <Philip`> Streaming video seem to be the kind of thing that telecom companies care a lot about, so they want to invest in high-bandwidth high-reliability low-latency links and Quality of Service and multicast and all sorts of proprietary protocols and everything, but then consumers don't care about any of that and just download video files over HTTP and wait a few seconds until it's buffered enough to start playing smoothly
# [17:15] <hsivonen> telcos care about QoS a lot more than justified by their customers' willingness to pay for it
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# [17:23] * Philip` is not yet sure to what extent QoS is a real issue for the internet, and how much is just outdated Bellhead vs Nethead ideas
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# [17:29] <mgrdcm> hsivonen: one reason telcos care about it is to give their own VoIP traffic priority. they care about it within their own networks at least.
# [17:30] * mgrdcm used to work on big telco traffic quality monitoring software
# [17:31] <hsivonen> mgrdcm: my point is that telcos fret about Erland formulas and circuit switching when the casual customer is happy with the Skype level of uncertainty
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# [17:34] <mgrdcm> hsivonen: for voice, though, i think customers' expectations of quality are higher when provided by a "phone company", even if it is over IP just like they'd be getting from vonage.
# [17:37] <hsivonen> what does Vonage do for 911 calls?
# [17:38] <ezyang> gsnedders: Houston, we have a problem.
# [17:38] * Philip` 's university switched to VOIP last year, and every few months there are data network outages that cause the phone system to fail for several hours
# [17:39] * ezyang 's university is switching to VOIP, but none of the students use the phones anyway...
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# [17:40] <jgraham> Philip`: Very locally that worked nicely for me since you couldn't hear anyone on the analouge phone that was in our office (it was too quiet)
# [17:40] <jgraham> (and had a many-metre extension cable)
# [17:40] <Philip`> (The phone system has actually been *less* reliable than the data network, since my building has a backup link for data but the phone is on a different VLAN that apparently won't work over the backup link)
# [17:41] <jgraham> (so being able to hear people sometimes was overall a worthwhile gain)
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# [17:42] <Philip`> Analogue phones have the advantage that you don't have to wait a minute for them to reboot and acquire an IP address whenever there's a problem or whenever they get unplugged
# [17:43] <Philip`> But when the VOIP phones work, they seem to work fine and they have new features and stuff, so I guess that'd good
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# [17:43] <Philip`> s/'d/'s/
# [17:45] <ezyang> Do you have the feature where you can have voicemail emailed to you as an MP3?
# [17:47] * gsnedders notes that would mean paying the fees to encode an MP3
# [17:47] <Philip`> ezyang: Not sure, but there is a web page where you can listen the voicemail as an .au file or something
# [17:48] <ezyang> Basically the same
# [17:48] <Philip`> (That's actually the only way I know how to listen to voicemail - I'm sure there must be some feature on the phone itself to do that, but I haven't figured it out)
# [17:48] <ezyang> gsnedders: So, you know how we're optimizing tokenizer by globbing as many characters as we can? Well, it's actually kind of important to keep whitespace separated
# [17:48] <Philip`> (But I've only had one voicemail message in the past year, so I haven't cared a lot)
# [17:48] <gsnedders> ezyang: I know
# [17:49] <gsnedders> ezyang: But only when we move in or out of the data state, IIRC
# [17:49] <Philip`> I imagine you don't want to split on whitespace between words inside an element, because that'd hurt performance a lot
# [17:50] <ezyang> Yeah... I'm trying to find which one is causing the test case to fail
# [17:50] * Philip` isn't sure how Python html5lib handles this (if it handles it at all)
# [17:50] <ezyang> But if you have: <!DOCTYPE html><script>  </script> EOF
# [17:50] <ezyang> (note space between </script> and EOF)
# [17:50] <gsnedders> Philip`: It only gives WhitespaceCharacters when moving into the data state, IIRC
# [17:50] <ezyang> The whitespace gets placed in <head>, but EOF gets placed in <body>
# [17:51] * gsnedders notes it is quite likely his memory is wrong
# [17:52] <ezyang> Ok, this is definitely data' fault; my fix was just wrong
# [17:54] <ezyang> What does HTML5 define as whitespace?
# [17:54] <gsnedders> We should probably have a constant for that
# [17:54] <gsnedders> but from memory: U+0009, U+000A, U+000C, U+000D, U+0020
# [17:55] <hsivonen> gsnedders: yes
# [17:55] <ezyang> Hmm. U+000B isn't one of them?
# [17:55] <gsnedders> Nope.
# [17:55] <ezyang> Ok, so, like, all of our code is wrong :-)
# [17:55] <hsivonen> ezyang: not anymore
# [17:55] <gsnedders> ezyang: Tok doesn't allow it
# [17:55] <ezyang> Ah, that makes sense
# [17:56] <ezyang> So, in TreeConstructer, we've got loads and loads of preg_match('/^[\t\n\x0b\x0c ]+$/'
# [17:56] <ezyang> I should to a global search replace at some point
# [17:56] <ezyang> In favor of a constant
# [17:56] <gsnedders> Ah, in TreeConstructor
# [17:56] <ezyang> Oh yeah, that's bugging me to
# [17:56] <ezyang> We should rename the class
# [17:56] <ezyang> *too
# [17:56] <gsnedders> Also: remove pcre dependancy.
# [17:57] <ezyang> I'll let you do that, since you're the resident expert :-)
# [17:57] <gsnedders> Me!?
# [17:57] <hsivonen> seems like you are using much higher-level constructs in the tokenizer than I am
# [17:57] <gsnedders> hsivonen: This isn't tokenizer there.
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# [17:57] <gsnedders> hsivonen: We're about the same level in the tokenizer as Python
# [17:59] <ezyang> gsnedders: InputStream takes care of \r, so I don't need to check for it, right?
# [17:59] <gsnedders> ezyang: What about  ?
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# [18:00] <ezyang> Oh, yeah, good point
# [18:01] <Philip`> Doesn't  get replaced in the tokeniser?
# [18:01] <ezyang> Huh. Fixing that introduced three more fails
# [18:01] <gsnedders> Philip`: dunno
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# [18:02] <Philip`> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/syntax.html#tokenizing-character-references says replace 0x0D with U+000A
# [18:02] <gsnedders> Oh well, OK
# [18:02] <gsnedders> ezyang: You don't need to check for it.
# [18:08] <gsnedders> ezyang: Where about are you working atm?
# [18:08] <ezyang> I'm smashing tree builder bugs
# [18:08] <ezyang> As long as TreeBuilderTest.php keeps working, you can do whatever you want to Tokenizer/InputStream
# [18:08] <ezyang> Let me just commit and push my recent changes
# [18:08] <gsnedders> Uh, yeah, I may end up touching TreeBuilderTest :)
# [18:09] <hsivonen> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=HTML_5&diff=293104533&oldid=prev
# [18:09] <ezyang> As long as it keeps working
# [18:09] <ezyang> I'm not really editing that file per se. Just using it.
# [18:10] <ezyang> Question: Why does the </cite> in <b>A<cite>B<div>C</cite>D *not* close the <div>?
# [18:11] <ezyang> <cite> is not mentioned anywhere in the spec, so it should close the div...
# [18:11] <gsnedders> "Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!"
# [18:12] <ezyang> No, this is w.r.t. the spec
# [18:12] <ezyang> AFAICT, the spec mandates that <div> get closed
# [18:12] <ezyang> But the test-case asserts differently
# [18:12] <ezyang> Oh, my algo is wrong. Savvy
# [18:13] <Philip`> "TreeConstructer.php"?!
# [18:13] <gsnedders> Philip`: We didn't decide to call it that!
# [18:14] <ezyang> Yeah, that's what the original was named
# [18:14] <ezyang> and I didn't feel like renaming it without a bunch of tests first
# [18:14] <gsnedders> Where has Jeroen gone? I haven't heard from him in a while
# [18:15] <Philip`> You should rename it before anyone starts relying on it :-)
# [18:15] * Philip` is reminded of http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2008/05/19/8518565.aspx
# [18:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: There are uglier things
# [18:15] <ezyang> Philip`: aye-aye, sir
# [18:15] <Philip`> gsnedders: Like the use of PHP?
# [18:15] <gsnedders> Philip`: For example
# [18:16] <Philip`> You really should have written it in Haskell instead
# [18:16] <ezyang> Hahaha
# [18:16] <ezyang> I mean, I'm totaly learning Haskell right now
# [18:16] <ezyang> *totally
# [18:16] <gsnedders> Philip`: Or Referer in HTTP
# [18:16] * gsnedders had learning Haskell on his to-do list for last summer
# [18:16] <gsnedders> I never got to the end of the first item over the summer
# [18:17] <ezyang> Haskell is totally worth skipping the rest of your list for.
# [18:17] <ezyang> Catamorphisms yum!
# [18:18] <gsnedders> So, InputStream tests…
# [18:19] <gsnedders> What do I want to extend for the class?
# [18:19] <Philip`> Python html5lib has a few you could steal, but I'm not sure how useful or appropriate or extensive they are
# [18:19] <ezyang> Hmm... so it looks like foster parented elements don't get active formatting elements applied to them.
# [18:19] <ezyang> Oh wait they do.
# [18:19] <gsnedders> ezyang: I guess not HTML5_TestDataHarness…
# [18:20] <gsnedders> ezyang: UnitTestCase?
# [18:20] <ezyang> Hmm?
# [18:20] <ezyang> Oh yeah, UnitTestCase is what you want
# [18:20] <ezyang> that and $this->assertIdentical() are probably all you need
# [18:20] <ezyang> maybe a setUp() or two
# [18:20] * ezyang does sit ups
# [18:20] * gsnedders hasn't used SimpleTest before
# [18:21] * gsnedders wishes it did code coverage…
# [18:22] <ezyang> Does PHPUnit do code coverage these days?
# [18:22] <gsnedders> Has for ages.
# [18:23] * gsnedders wishes there was a generic code-coverage tool for PHP that worked with any script
# [18:23] <ezyang> YEah, it's called XDebug
# [18:23] <gsnedders> That doesn't create anything nice to look at, just arrays
# [18:24] <ezyang> Well, it's like a really simple PHP script to get some nice output
# [18:24] <ezyang> (just someone has to write it)
# [18:24] * gsnedders doesn't remember it being overly simple
# [18:24] <gsnedders> I started to write something, then realized it was more than I could be bothered to write
# [18:25] <ezyang> Let me bang something out
# [18:27] <gsnedders> Do we want one test per method?
# [18:28] <ezyang> Yep.
# [18:28] <ezyang> Pick expressive method names
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# [18:34] <ezyang> Done
# [18:34] <gsnedders> Done what?
# [18:34] <ezyang> With the highlight script
# [18:34] <gsnedders> ah
# [18:34] <ezyang> Let me stick in GitHub or something
# [18:34] <ezyang> So you can try it out.
# [18:35] <Philip`> Hmm, excellent, new versions of MySQL think width-140 with unsigned smallint width=80 should result in 18446744073709551556
# [18:35] <Philip`> (compared to a much older version that thought it was some crazy like -60)
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# [18:37] <ezyang> Use case is to do the code coverage, and then save it as a .ser file
# [18:37] <ezyang> http://github.com/ezyang/xdebug-highlight/tree/master
# [18:37] <ezyang> I haven't tested it myself
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# [18:39] <gsnedders> ezyang: That doesn't break down into coverage % for functions, etc. :P
# [18:39] <hsivonen> Hixie: how did http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/Overview.html#declarative-3d-scenes end up in the spec?
# [18:40] <ezyang> Oh, you want that info
# [18:40] <ezyang> Yeah, then I officially don't care.
# [18:40] <ezyang> Port our test-cases to PHPUnit or something
# [18:40] <gsnedders> ezyang: Uh, that implies effort.
# [18:41] <ezyang> You're working on html5lib. Come on, mate.
# [18:41] <gsnedders> :P
# [18:41] <gsnedders> ezyang: "Please leave your sense of logic at the door, thanks!"
# [18:41] <ezyang> Anyway, I'm a SimpleTest dev, so I can fix problems and stuff.
# [18:41] <ezyang> Also, SimpleTest has an experimental code coverage branch
# [18:42] <ezyang> I've never used it though.
# [18:44] <Philip`> hsivonen: There was some discussion about 3d <canvas> years and years ago, and someone mentioned X3D in there, so I guess that's what resulted in it being mentioned in the spec
# [18:45] <Philip`> (Some of the X3D people seem to be misinterpreting it as stating that X3D is the official solution for embedding 3D in HTML5)
# [18:45] <hsivonen> has any browser vendor shown interest in X3D?
# [18:46] <Philip`> No, as far as I'm aware
# [18:46] <hsivonen> Mozilla, Google and Opera have all tried something else
# [18:46] <Philip`> All the current X3D support is just in plugins (or standalone applications), I believe
# [18:47] <Philip`> but various X3D people want more integration with the browser
# [18:47] <Philip`> e.g. linking it directly to the DOM inside an XHTML page, like with SVG
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# [18:51] <Philip`> (Maybe it could be useful in the same way that having both SVG and 2d <canvas> is useful, since they're appropriate for different situations)
# [18:52] <Philip`> (Alternatively, maybe it could be a waste of effort in the same that having both SVG and 2d <canvas> is a waste of effort, since there's significant overlap)
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# [18:56] <ezyang> Subtle: if we reconstruct an active formatting element, *that* becomes the foster parent. I wonder where the python implementation special cases this.
# [19:00] <Dashiva> So if you build a paved road, and later a few lonely cows start walking on it... does it even make sense to call it a cowpath?
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# [19:03] <Philip`> What if you can't see any cows at all, but the road is covered in cow pats?
# [19:04] <ezyang> Is it a cow if no one sees it?
# [19:04] <Philip`> ezyang: Yes
# [19:06] <Dashiva> Well, I'm just wondering because there seem to be a few people saying "<existing spec feature> is a cowpath because some people use it"
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# [19:12] <gsnedders> Dashiva: But cows are cute!
# [19:12] <gsnedders> We must keep them!
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# [19:16] <Philip`> gsnedders: That's the main reason I use Gentoo
# [19:16] <Philip`> "emerge moo" prints a nice picture of the mascot, Larry the Cow
# [19:18] <Dashiva> Philip`: You linked that bytes-to-encoding image again, which reminded me that you were going to make one with a more sensible y axis :)
# [19:18] <Philip`> Was I?
# [19:19] <Dashiva> Logarithmic in the percentage of non-working sites, I think
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# [19:19] <Philip`> You mean like http://philip.html5.org/data/encoding-detection-loglog.svg or something?
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# [19:22] <Dashiva> Yeah, that
# [19:23] <Dashiva> I guess I just forgot you had made it :)
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# [19:24] <Philip`> How could you forget? It wasn't even 15 months ago
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# [19:24] <Philip`> (I suppose I do have the distinct advantage of being able to see the directory listing...)
# [19:25] <Dashiva> Maybe I assumed you would've linked that one if it existed, even though it's just my personal taste saying it's better
# [19:25] <Philip`> The other graph does a better job of misrepresenting the data so that 512 bytes looks like a sensible figure to choose
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# [19:26] <Dashiva> One thing I've wondered is, does it really make a difference to wait until 1024 bytes?
# [19:26] <Dashiva> Isn't that usually within the first packet anyhow?
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# [19:26] <Philip`> Usually, but not close to always
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# [19:27] <Philip`> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20090528#l-1107
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# [19:28] <Philip`> (Packets are usually a bit under 1500 bytes, I think)
# [19:29] <Dashiva> Hmm, so if the header is 400+ you might run past the first packet
# [19:29] <gsnedders> ezyang: Right, so I think we basically need to have our own UTF-8 decoder, but we can skip it if we have an up-to-date copy of PCRE with Unicode or a sane iconv, _and_ we have PCRE.
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# [19:30] <ezyang> Sounds like it. hsivonen has one
# [19:30] <gsnedders> I have one too.
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# [19:30] <gsnedders> I have an MIT licensed one, which is more useful for html5lib than hsivonen's
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# [19:31] <Dashiva> My internet connection is too fast for me to be able to care about the difference in one and two packets, I suppose :)
# [19:33] <gsnedders> ezyang: The only reason we need PCRE always for when we don't need to use our own UTF-8 decoder is what is currently line 130 of inputstream
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# [19:33] <ezyang> I've seen. It's quite an impressive regex you have there.
# [19:34] <gsnedders> Yeah. It was fun to write. </sarcasm>
# [19:34] <Philip`> Dashiva: Latency matters more than bandwidth, and I assume your internet connection still suffers from latency when accessing data on the other side of the world
# [19:34] <Philip`> although I don't how much it actually matters in reality
# [19:34] <Philip`> because I don't really have any idea how TCP works
# [19:34] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
# [19:34] <Philip`> (Will it send lots of response packets at once, rather than doing the first and waiting for an ACK?)
# [19:34] <gsnedders> ezyang: I used to require PCRE with UTF-8 support there, but that says any string containing low surrogates is invalid, which doesn't work when we want to detect them.
# [19:35] <gsnedders> (It's also cheaper not having to decode it)
# [19:35] <ezyang> Awesome.
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# [19:35] <Dashiva> Philip`: It will send several, yes
# [19:36] <Philip`> I guess this has something to do with the default window size
# [19:36] <sr0unet> Hello.
# [19:36] <gsnedders> ezyang: (Most of the test case failures I have so far come from using iconv!)
# [19:36] <Dashiva> Yeah
# [19:36] <sr0unet> Is this a WPF channel ?
# [19:36] <gsnedders> s/most/all/
# [19:36] <Dashiva> That's how far ahead it's willing to go, as I recall
# [19:36] <Dashiva> sr0unet: What's WPF? Wikipedia foundation?
# [19:36] <sr0unet> ^^
# [19:36] <Dashiva> Then no
# [19:36] <ezyang> As in, we need to emit parse errors and iconv doesn't do that?
# [19:36] <Philip`> Walrus protection fund?
# [19:36] <sr0unet> WPF C#
# [19:36] <gsnedders> ezyang: No
# [19:37] <gsnedders> ezyang: Replace invalid sequences with U+FFFD
# [19:37] <Dashiva> This is where HTML happens
# [19:37] <Philip`> I don't think anyone using an HTML5 parser library is actually going to care about parse errors, so it'd be much easier to not implement them :-)
# [19:37] <gsnedders> Philip`: But we already have :P
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# [19:38] * Philip` should add a no-error mode to Python html5lib so it doesn't have to go through all the bother of tracking line numbers and suchlike
# [19:41] <ezyang> aha
# [19:41] <ezyang> Philip`: Actually, people surprisingly do
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# [19:51] <gsnedders> Wait, what…
# [19:51] <gsnedders> DOM Level 2 Events uses "thru"
# [19:53] <Dashiva> To the Errata-mobile
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# [19:56] <gsnedders> How do you get each member of a NodeList in ECMAScript?
# [19:56] <gsnedders> My out of practiceness of JS shows
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# [19:59] <gsnedders> Can you not set an event handler on DOMActivate?
# [20:00] <ezyang> Hey, question for y'all: when the spec says 'Process the token using the rules for the "in head" insertion mode.', do they implicitly want me to temporarily add <head> to the top of the stack?
# [20:00] <Dashiva> gsnedders: .length and iteration?
# [20:00] <ezyang> This is section 9.2.5.10
# [20:00] <gsnedders> http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/events/DOMActivate/001.html makes it seem you can, but Op 10 fails
# [20:00] <Dashiva> DOMActivate is part of mutation, isn't it?
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# [20:02] <gsnedders> Oh, wait. I realize what I'm doing wrong.
# [20:04] <gsnedders> Is it bad I more or less permanently have HTML 5 open?
# [20:04] <ezyang> Hmm, it looks like the spec doesn't actually want that
# [20:04] <Dashiva> Philip`: What's your comment to being labeled as not part of the whatwg crowd?
# [20:05] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2009May/0084.html
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# [20:07] * Dashiva misses being member of a Member so he could read Member mails
# [20:07] <Philip`> Dashiva: Depends on whether that comment came from a cool person i.e. a WHATWG member, or someone else
# [20:09] <Dashiva> It was our friend Shelley
# [20:09] <gsnedders> Does 'a, img[usemap], video[controls], audio[controls], label, input:not([type=hidden]), button, select, textarea, keygen, details, datagrid, bb, menu[type=toolbar]' match all interactive elements?
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# [20:12] <ezyang> Ok, I think I see a bug in the test-cases
# [20:12] <Philip`> Dashiva: Hmm, where was that?
# [20:12] <ezyang> <head></html><meta><p> should result in <meta> being placed in <body>, since </html> pops us to AFTER_AFTER_BODY
# [20:13] <ezyang> Oh shoot, I'm in the wrong mode
# [20:13] <Dashiva> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2009May/0537.html
# [20:13] <ezyang> Oh no, it's the same behavior
# [20:13] <ezyang> Awesome. I think this is legit. Anyone else want to verify?
# [20:14] <hsivonen> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2009May/0123.html has interesting bits
# [20:15] <ezyang> The question is does <head></html> result in AFTER_AFTER_BODY or IN_HEAD mode
# [20:15] <Philip`> Dashiva: Oh, right
# [20:16] <hsivonen> ezyang: V.nu may have a bug in that case
# [20:16] <Dashiva> ezyang: What's the non-legit behavior seen elsewhere?
# [20:17] <ezyang> The python, V.nu, and test-case think that tihs should result in IN_HEAD
# [20:17] <ezyang> I think it should be AFTER_AFTER_BODY
# [20:17] <Dashiva> Okay
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# [20:20] <Dashiva> So the </html> is "in head", becomes "after head", becomes "in body", becomes "after body", becomes "after after body". Then the <meta> is sent to "in body", and then sent to "in head"
# [20:21] <ezyang> Dashiva: yep.
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# [20:22] <ezyang> But the "in body" case doesn't push the head_pointer onto the stack, so meta ends up in body, not html
# [20:22] <Dashiva> But the <meta> ends up in the head
# [20:22] <ezyang> s/html/head/
# [20:22] <ezyang> If meta should end up in head, I think we have a spec bug.
# [20:22] <Dashiva> Oh, you mean in the code?
# [20:22] <ezyang> The Python/V.nu code puts it in the head. I think spec puts it in body.
# [20:22] <Dashiva> Not that I can see
# [20:23] <ezyang> It's subtle. When you're "in body", it passes it on to "in head"
# [20:23] <Dashiva> Here's how I see it in the spec: You start in "after after body". You follow the step "anything else" which sends you to "in body"
# [20:23] <Dashiva> There you follow A start tag token whose tag name is one of: "base", "command", "link", "meta" ... which takes you to "in head"
# [20:23] <ezyang> But the top of the stack is still <body>, not <head>
# [20:23] <ezyang> yep and yep
# [20:23] <Dashiva> Ah, I see what you mean
# [20:23] <ezyang> We are in agreement.
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# [20:24] <hsivonen> ezyang: at some point, the spec said that </body> and </html> were ignored in head
# [20:24] <ezyang> Yep.
# [20:25] <ezyang> So, assuming that the spec change is correct, this test-case needs to change
# [20:25] <hsivonen> yes
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# [20:26] <ezyang> Ok, will do.
# [20:26] <ezyang> I'll also patch the Python implementation for free :-)
# [20:26] <Dashiva> But the intent is still that <meta> should always end up in head, isn't it?
# [20:27] <Dashiva> That is, it's a spec bug too
# [20:27] <ezyang> Well, we have test-cases that very specifically say <meta> should end up in <body>
# [20:27] <Dashiva> Oh
# [20:27] <Dashiva> Microdata, of course
# [20:27] <Dashiva> I had things mixed up
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# [20:29] <hsivonen> Dashiva: it predates microdata. IE and Opera compat
# [20:29] <hsivonen> the parsing spec was *not* changed for microdata
# [20:29] * hsivonen waves to log readers
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# [20:29] <Dashiva> But remembering microdata told me which way is the intended one :)
# [20:30] <ezyang> Browsers are... special.
# [20:30] <ezyang> Yup yup
# [20:30] <Dashiva> hsivonen: It's a bit worrisome if anyone were to take anything I say as reasonable
# [20:30] * jgraham wonders if Philip` has a clever way of making parseerrorless html5lib significantly faster whilst still allowing the possibility of reporting parse errors
# [20:31] * gsnedders notes the perf. hit was fairly low even in PHP
# [20:31] <Dashiva> jgraham: Would it be parseerrorless if it had that capability?
# [20:31] <Philip`> jgraham: Depends on whether 5% counts as significant
# [20:31] <hsivonen> jgalvez_: does python compile away empty methods that could be filled in by a subclass but aren't at the time of execution?
# [20:32] <gsnedders> Does 'a, img[usemap], video[controls], audio[controls], label, input:not([type=hidden]), button, select, textarea, keygen, details, datagrid, bb, menu[type=toolbar]' match all interactive elements?
# [20:32] <ezyang> "two-heads-are-not-better-than-one" HAHAHA
# [20:32] <hsivonen> s/jgalvez_/jgraham/
# [20:32] <jgraham> hsivonen: Assuming you meant me, no idea but I doubt it
# [20:33] <jgraham> Philip`: How?
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# [20:34] <hsivonen> jgraham: I'm refactoring code assuming that HotSpot does that
# [20:34] <Dashiva> hsivonen: So tag is getting involved in the RDFa side of things?
# [20:34] <jgraham> ezyang: Ah, the delicate touch of mpilgrim
# [20:34] <Philip`> jgraham: By not bothering to keep track of line numbers
# [20:34] <hsivonen> Dashiva: looks like it might
# [20:34] <Philip`> jgraham: (I think it saved roughly that much when I last checked)
# [20:35] <jgraham> Philip`: So just an if (parse_errors): calculate_line_numbers type thing
# [20:35] <Philip`> jgraham: Something like that
# [20:35] <jgraham> It would be nice to cut all the method calls to parseError()
# [20:35] <jgraham> But that is harder I guess
# [20:36] <Dashiva> At least the talk seemed rather calm and reasonable
# [20:36] <ezyang> jgraham: Ah, so this is mpilgrim's baby :-)
# [20:36] <Dashiva> No flaming rhetoric from the get-go :)
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# [20:36] <jgraham> ezyang: mpilgrim tried making a html5lib based validator
# [20:36] * ezyang .oO{ghetto}
# [20:36] <jgraham> Which never really went anywhere
# [20:36] <ezyang> Ah.
# [20:37] <ezyang> So, sorta like V.nu, except vapourware?
# [20:37] <jgraham> ezyang: sort of
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# [20:38] <Philip`> ezyang: Not really, since there wasn't any vapour
# [20:38] <Philip`> Just some code that checked a few conformance requirements
# [20:38] <ezyang> Aha.
# [20:39] <ezyang> (in other news, test-case fix pushed. Rubyistas and Javaistas, fix yer code!)
# [20:39] <ezyang> Maybe I should fix the ruby impl too.
# [20:41] <gsnedders> When was DOM 3 XPath support added to browsers?
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# [20:50] <hsivonen> gsnedders: March 2002
# [20:51] <hsivonen> gsnedders: http://bonsai.mozilla.org/cvslog.cgi?file=mozilla/dom/public/idl/xpath/nsIDOMXPathEvaluator.idl&rev=HEAD&mark=1.3
# [20:51] <hsivonen> dunno about other code bases
# [20:51] <ezyang> Ugh, fixing the ruby impl increased the fail count by two
# [21:00] <hsivonen> http://twitter.com/jdowdell/status/1961148437
# [21:01] <ezyang> Is there any particular reason there's a smattering of test-cases that have error messages like "Unexpected end tag (). Ignored."?
# [21:02] <ezyang> (four, specifically)
# [21:06] <jwalden> judging by this channel, jd is an extremely effective troll
# [21:09] <Hixie> don't confuse people being entertained with people being enraged :-)
# [21:10] <jwalden> lots of talk for not that much entertainment, to me :-)
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# [21:10] <ezyang> I'm not poking the ruby implementation any more (although I managed to introduce 10 more failing cases.) >:-(
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# [21:32] <Wolfman2000> Morning/afternoon. www.pumpproedits.com <-- I present, the newest member of the HTML5 family.
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# [21:37] <ezyang> tests1.dat -> full passes with PHP implementation
# [21:37] <ezyang> moving on to tests2.dat
# [21:38] <Wolfman2000> ...testing? What type of testing?
# [21:39] <ezyang> Woflman2000: the PHP port of html5lib
# [21:41] <Wolfman2000> Will a python library be required?
# [21:42] <ezyang> Nope. That's the port of a port.
# [21:42] <Wolfman2000> ...I'll get clarification on that later
# [21:42] <ezyang> erm, *point of a port
# [21:43] <ezyang> (port of a point? port of a sherry? The mystery deepens)
# [21:43] <gsnedders> What about the side of a port, then?
# [21:43] <Wolfman2000> I'll rephrase the question
# [21:44] <Wolfman2000> will a Python port be required?
# [21:44] <Wolfman2000> to be built
# [21:44] <ezyang> We already have a Python port
# [21:45] <Wolfman2000> *nods*
# [21:45] <ezyang> (I suppose, if the Python impl was first, it's not technically a port...)
# [21:45] * beowulf has an image of snakes weighing anchor
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# [21:46] <ezyang> We can call it starboard, or something
# [21:48] <Philip`> We can just call it html5lib
# [21:48] <Philip`> (All the others are pretenders)
# [21:49] <ezyang> Ok, another test-case bug (I think)
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# [21:50] <ezyang> nvm.
# [21:51] <mpilgrim> http://www.youtube.com/html5 works in chrome 3.0.182.3
# [21:51] <Wolfman2000> ...and my copy of Firefox won't work on that
# [21:52] <Wolfman2000> 3.0.10 for the record
# [21:52] <mpilgrim> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ogg_video works in chrome 3.0.182.3 too
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# [21:56] <mpilgrim> mark@atlantis:~% mp4creator -list google_main.mp4
# [21:56] <mpilgrim> Track Type Info
# [21:56] <mpilgrim> 1 audio MPEG-4 AAC LC, 58.049 secs, 125 kbps, 44100 Hz
# [21:56] <mpilgrim> 2 video H264 Baseline@2.1, 57.599 secs, 499 kbps, 480x270 @ 29.983159 fps
# [21:56] <mpilgrim> (google_main.mp4 is the video on http://www.youtube.com/html5 )
# [21:56] <mpilgrim> wikimedia commons has theora video with vorbis audio in an OGG container
# [21:58] <Wolfman2000> mpilgrim: the youtube.com/html5 thing is NOT working on Firefox 3.5 beta 4 on Mac OS X
# [21:58] <Wolfman2000> the video is not playing
# [21:59] <scherkus> the youtube site uses h264/aac, which as of right now is only supported in chrome 3.0.182.3 and safari 4 beta
# [21:59] <mpilgrim> i am aware of that
# [21:59] <Wolfman2000> scherkus: thank you
# [21:59] <mpilgrim> i'm testing google chrome right now
# [22:00] <mpilgrim> http://wearehugh.com/public/2006/12/20061225-large.mp4 plays in google chrome 3.0.182.3
# [22:00] <mpilgrim> stats on that:
# [22:00] <mpilgrim> Track Type Info
# [22:00] <mpilgrim> 1 video H264 Main@5.1, 142.842 secs, 751 kbps, 640x480 @ 29.970177 fps
# [22:00] <mpilgrim> 2 audio MPEG-4 AAC LC, 142.762 secs, 0 kbps, 48000 Hz
# [22:00] <mpilgrim> so that's H.264 Main Profile video, AAC-LC audio, in an MP4 container
# [22:01] <mpilgrim> i don't have any H.264 High Profile video handy
# [22:01] <Wolfman2000> ...wonder when Firefox will support h264/aac then
# [22:02] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: is the h.264 part open source?
# [22:02] <Rik|work> btw, openvideo on dailymotion now works in safari 4
# [22:02] <mpilgrim> i'm assuming it's ffmpeg
# [22:02] <mpilgrim> as discussed a few days ago
# [22:03] <hsivonen> Rik|work: with XiphQT
# [22:03] <hsivonen> mpilgrim: interesting considering licensing
# [22:03] * mpilgrim wonders if google chrome for mac could bundle XiphQT
# [22:03] <hsivonen> Rik|work: with XiphQT?
# [22:03] <Rik|work> hsivonen: no, with mp4
# [22:03] <mpilgrim> bbiab
# [22:03] <hsivonen> Rik|work: also interesting
# [22:04] <Rik|work> hsivonen: but they're not using <source>, they do browser sniffing
# [22:04] <ezyang> Ok, this algorithm is confusing me
# [22:04] <hsivonen> :-(
# [22:04] <Rik|work> I'm talking with the devs (I'm french) and they answered they have many reasons for not using that
# [22:04] <ezyang> Otherwise, set node to the previous entry in the stack of open elements and return to step 2." and then "Initialize node to be the current node (the bottommost node of the stack). "
# [22:04] <Rik|work> one of them was lack of support in a previous firefox beta
# [22:05] <ezyang> Does the second step mean that we pop nodes node is the current node, or what?
# [22:05] <ezyang> Or does the spec actually mean I should go to step 3?
# [22:06] <ezyang> Hmm, looks like I somehow fixed it. Nevermind
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# [22:09] <Groovy> you noticed google.com stopped being <!doctype html> ?
# [22:09] <Wolfman2000> I never noticed them using it to begin with.
# [22:09] <ezyang> Huh. We don't have PLAINTEXT support in our tokenizer. wtf
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# [22:11] <ezyang> Huh. The spec doesn't handle PLAINTEXT
# [22:11] <Groovy> Wolfman2000: yea, about from beginning of may to now they went <!doctype html>
# [22:11] <ezyang> Uhh... Hixie? Any comments?
# [22:11] <Wolfman2000> ...they must be secretly in bed with Microsoft
# [22:12] <Wolfman2000> HTML5 doesn't work for IE unless you use javascript to add the elements to the DOM
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# [22:15] <gsnedders> ezyang: It's an optimization.
# [22:15] <ezyang> Huh?
# [22:15] <ezyang> Sorry, I don't follow.
# [22:16] <gsnedders> ezyang: PLAINTEXT state means everything stays in the data state
# [22:16] <gsnedders> ezyang: We handle it by special casing other content models
# [22:16] <ezyang> Uhm, no we don't
# [22:16] <gsnedders> ezyang: Yes we do.
# [22:16] <gsnedders> ezyang: We do nothing for it. In it, you will never move out of the data state.
# [22:16] <ezyang> If we did, this test would pass: <table><plaintext><td>
# [22:17] <ezyang> the tokenizer is happly continuing parsing even after being put in PLAINTEXT content model
# [22:17] <ezyang> *happily
# [22:17] <gsnedders> We should be in the data state after it
# [22:18] <ezyang> Right. And we never check for mode PLAINTEXT
# [22:18] <gsnedders> We don't need to.
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# [22:18] <ezyang> REally?
# [22:18] <gsnedders> Hence we always stay in the data state.
# [22:18] <gsnedders> ezyang: Look at the spec.
# [22:18] <gsnedders> ezyang: We only move out of it after checking state is PCDATA, RCDATA or CDATA
# [22:19] <gsnedders> The tokenizer looks fine to mee.
# [22:19] <gsnedders> *me
# [22:20] <ezyang> Oh, well, that's because PLAINTEXT content model is not getting set.
# [22:20] <gsnedders> :D
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# [22:20] <gsnedders> See, the code I've been working on works. :P
# [22:21] <ezyang> Yep.
# [22:21] <ezyang> You're right
# [22:21] <gsnedders> Of course.
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# [22:23] <ezyang> This return the content model business is obnoxious
# [22:23] <ezyang> I think I'm going to refactor it out.
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# [22:50] <ezyang> Ok, so if I have <p><b></p> <p> does the space get wrapped by <b>?
# [22:51] <ezyang> I'm leaning towards yes, althought the test case claims it doesn't.
# [22:51] <ezyang> Also, the Python implementation agrees with me
# [22:51] <ezyang> So does the Ruby implementation
# [22:52] <ezyang> (could it be? could ezyang have actually found a real test-case bug?
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# [22:54] <ezyang> It could be a spec bug, since what then happens is we stick the <p> inside the <b><i><u> tags, which is not what active formatting elements is supposed to do.
# [22:55] <ezyang> Any comments?
# [22:56] <jgraham> ezyang: WDVND?
# [22:56] <ezyang> come again?
# [22:57] <jgraham> (What does Validator.nu do?)
# [22:57] <ezyang> Oh, yeah
# [22:58] <ezyang> V.nu does the test-case behavior
# [22:59] <ezyang> I guess I could figure out what they did different.
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# [23:01] <jgraham> ezyang: Henri is generally more up to date than html5lib. Although there is a case with whitespace that he preemptively changed anticipating a spec change that hasn't happened
# [23:02] <ezyang> Yep, that seems like it.
# [23:02] <ezyang> hsivonen is not reconstructing active formatting elements when there's whitespace
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# [23:03] <ezyang> The spec hasn't changed w.r.t. yet, though
# [23:04] <ezyang> I thought tokenizing/treebuilding was pretty stable now?
# [23:08] <ezyang> "Update the tree building tests with frameset-ok, new AAA and (not yet in spec) WebKit-style foster-parenting"
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# [23:08] <hsivonen> if something depends on whitespace in 'in body', it's likely a bug
# [23:08] <ezyang> So it's the webkit thing again :-)
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# [23:08] <hsivonen> oh, you meant foster parenting
# [23:08] <hsivonen> that's deliberate
# [23:09] <ezyang> So, I understand that the spec may not be at the point that V.nu is
# [23:09] <ezyang> But having tests that the spec deliberately fails really doesn't help me out, if I'm trying for 0 fails
# [23:09] <hsivonen> ezyang: when I checked that in, Hixie's IRC statements hinted at spec going that way
# [23:10] <ezyang> Anyway, it's whitespace "in body"
# [23:11] <ezyang> Specifically, the difference is V.nu checks if a character token is whitespace, and if it is, doesn't reconstruct active formatting elements
# [23:11] <hsivonen> ezyang: not while foster parenting?
# [23:11] <ezyang> Nope.
# [23:11] <ezyang> No foster parenting at all.
# [23:11] <ezyang> You changed the test case, however, in commit 535a1040e2df
# [23:11] <hsivonen> weird
# [23:12] <ezyang> for which I just posted the summary
# [23:12] <hsivonen> wait, have the test cases moved to hg?
# [23:12] <hsivonen> I've been checking in to svn still
# [23:12] <ezyang> Yes.
# [23:13] <hsivonen> ouch
# [23:13] <ezyang> Does Google Code magically transfer it?
# [23:14] <ezyang> I mean, there's no way to tell if there was an svn repository from Google Code website anymore
# [23:14] <jgraham> ezyang: Dunno. I had to do the initial migration manually though
# [23:14] <ezyang> Oh hey, that's the last commit you made, according to mercurial
# [23:15] <ezyang> (re hsivonen)
# [23:15] <ezyang> jgraham: aha
# [23:15] <ezyang> When did the migration occur?
# [23:15] <hsivonen> ezyang: you'll save a lot of EOF grief if you get my changes from this week from svn
# [23:16] <ezyang> But I don't even remember where the svn repository *is*
# [23:16] <hsivonen> I don't either. I'm not on the computer that has my html5lib sandbox
# [23:17] <ezyang> Anyway, not turning off access to the subversion repos seems... poor.
# [23:17] <ezyang> I'm not sure how we can easily merge your changes back in.
# [23:17] <jgraham> ezyang: https://html5lib.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/
# [23:17] <ezyang> Awesome
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# [23:17] <jgraham> It seems like svn should become read-only
# [23:19] <jgraham> (I mean ideally, not that it does)
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# [23:21] <ezyang> AWesome, we only lost one commit
# [23:21] <ezyang> (maybe two, if one of those was in a branch)
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# [23:22] <ezyang> hsivonen: you can probably take its diff and apply to the new hg repository
# [23:22] <hsivonen> I haven't committed to branches
# [23:22] <hsivonen> ezyang: I'll do that when I get to my work computer
# [23:23] <ezyang> Odd. 1303 has nothing in it
# [23:23] <ezyang> Great.
# [23:24] <ezyang> Holy crap that's a big change
# [23:25] <ezyang> Oh, these are all tokenizer updates
# [23:25] <ezyang> Hmm... we already pass all of the tests... uh oh
# [23:25] <ezyang> Anyway, hsivonen, you maintain that Hixie is going to change the spec to follow V.nu behavior?
# [23:28] <hsivonen> ezyang: I intend to keep pushing Hixie that way :-)
# [23:28] <Wolfman2000> ...huh. The <header> tag has changed functionality?
# [23:28] * Wolfman2000 catches up on the blog reading
# [23:28] <Wolfman2000> ...am I really only allowed to use <header> with <h#>?
# [23:28] <hsivonen> ezyang: the tokenizer changed to discard tag token if EOF happens inside tag
# [23:28] <ezyang> Ok. Do you mind if I separate out that test to its own file?
# [23:28] <ezyang> Aha.
# [23:29] <hsivonen> ezyang: that would be good
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# [23:33] <jgraham> Wolfman2000: You can only use <hgroup> with <hx> <header> you can use with anything
# [23:33] <ezyang> Done.
# [23:33] <ezyang> I should document this somewhere
# [23:34] <Wolfman2000> ok
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# [23:39] <ezyang> hsivonen: I assume test 44 is another one of those?
# [23:39] <ezyang> (in tests2.dat)
# [23:40] <ezyang> This one is <p><b><i><u></p>\n<p>X
# [23:41] <hsivonen> ezyang: if that one deviates from spec, it's a bug
# [23:43] <ezyang> It's the same thing (note that in my post \n was meant to be interpreted as an scape)
# [23:43] * jgraham wonders how to stop hg merge from merging the python3 directory into the python directory
# [23:43] <ezyang> V.nu doesn't reconstruct active formatting elements on \n; everyone else does
# [23:43] <hsivonen> ezyang: sounds like a bug in V.nu
# [23:43] <ezyang> You could ask #mercurial about it
# [23:43] <ezyang> But... \n is whitespace
# [23:44] <hsivonen> ezyang: I need to study what code I have written
# [23:44] <ezyang> ok
# [23:45] * ezyang thinks "Wow, it's not often I get three reference implementations :-)"
# [23:47] <ezyang> THIRTY-SIX!
# [23:47] <ezyang> (failures, that is)
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# [23:49] <ezyang> Ok, now I need to implement the fragment algorithm
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# [23:58] <ezyang> I think that's enough html5lib hacking for today
# [23:58] <ezyang> Test suites 1-3 are now passing
# Session Close: Sat May 30 00:00:00 2009

The end :)