/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-03-12 / end

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  147. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: for some reason, on my system, no progress messages seem to get written to the console during the process of updating to a new nightly build
  148. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> or maybe I'm looking in the wrong place
  149. # [02:45] * Quits: Utkarsh (~admin@117.201.81.85) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  150. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> but I just updated to the latest nightly and when I go to check All Message in Console.app, I see just one Safari/WebKit-related message there: 10/03/12 10:37:32 Safari[43511] WebKit r55834 initialized.
  151. # [02:47] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: I know nothing about the nightly update mechanism since I always just build my own
  152. # [02:47] <MikeSmith> ah yeah
  153. # [02:49] <MikeSmith> well, I just mentioned it because bdash suggested checking the console messages as a way of troubleshooting any install problems.. I guess I'll ping him on IRC when he's around again and ask him if I need to switch on verbosity somewhere or something
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  155. # [02:50] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: anyway, about doing the regular checks/reports on resolution status, etc., of HTML WG bugs, I definitely want to help out with that
  156. # [02:51] <MikeSmith> and with anything else we can think of that would help with getting issues resolved, and help with getting us closer to being ready for LC
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  159. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> I'll start doing the 2nd thing you mentioned
  160. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20100311#l-88
  161. # [02:56] <MikeSmith> "someone should be checking bugs in RESOLVED state to make sure they contain the required info (the Editor's Response, a link to the spec diff if there was actually a spec change, a rationale that is actually some sort of meaningful rationale"
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  165. # [02:58] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: great - I'm going to mass-move the bugs that predate the policy info VERIFIED tomorrow, and the rest can be done at any time, no set schedule
  166. # [02:58] <MikeSmith> OK
  167. # [02:59] <MikeSmith> It will help in general if we had some direct SQL query access to the bugzilla DB
  168. # [02:59] <MikeSmith> maybe I can get that
  169. # [03:00] <MikeSmith> but rather than checking it manually, I'm hoping there is maybe a way that I can write a script to generate report" is something that of course needs to be checked by a human
  170. # [03:01] <MikeSmith> but having the Editor's Decision comments in some kind of easy-to-scan report form would make that much easier
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  172. # [03:02] <othermaciej> a script would be great
  173. # [03:02] <othermaciej> there's actually a couple of scripts we could use:
  174. # [03:02] <othermaciej> - Script to compile Editor's Resolution and spec diff link for bugs in RESOLVED (for verification)
  175. # [03:02] <othermaciej> (Hixie uses a consistent format so it shouldn't be too hard)
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  177. # [03:04] <othermaciej> - Script to count bugs that are still not in a terminal state (anything but CLOSED or VERIFIED+NoReply)
  178. # [03:05] <othermaciej> - Script to generate a Disposition of Comments based on bugs that *are* in a terminal state (we'll need this for getting out of Last Call)
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  180. # [03:09] <MikeSmith> the last one we are absolutely going to need eventually, one way or the other
  181. # [03:10] <MikeSmith> the other two I can definitely work on trying to get set up
  182. # [03:10] <MikeSmith> I vaguely remember asking the systems team some time ago about if there were a way I could get SQL access to the bugzilla DB
  183. # [03:11] <MikeSmith> but I can remember if the answer was a definition No, or just a "No, we'd rather you didn't do that, so we're not going to let you" No
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  186. # [03:17] <MikeSmith> .me notices new Audits tab in WebKit
  187. # [03:17] <MikeSmith> including "Remove unused CSS rules"
  188. # [03:17] <MikeSmith> this is nice
  189. # [03:18] <MikeSmith> it would also be nice to have as an online checker somewhere
  190. # [03:18] <MikeSmith> or maybe it already is
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  193. # [03:19] <MikeSmith> wow, I guess the Audits tab has been in there for a while.. Not sure how I missed it
  194. # [03:20] <MikeSmith> I think the name "Audits" scared me off
  195. # [03:20] <MikeSmith> if is said something more like "Optimize" that would be a lot more attractive
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  197. # [03:26] <othermaciej> that's a good idea
  198. # [03:27] <othermaciej> "Audits" sounds like it will poke in your financial records
  199. # [03:27] <MikeSmith> yeah
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  207. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2010/03/microdata-support-for-rich-snippets.html
  208. # [04:01] <MikeSmith> wow, the news was posted on March 9?
  209. # [04:02] <MikeSmith> anyway, so much for the argument about Microdata not having any implementation support
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  211. # [04:04] <othermaciej> hey neat
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  213. # [04:12] <Hixie> anyone know if the changes discussed for the File API are going to make it?
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  215. # [04:13] <Hixie> in particular, moving .type to Blob and renaming .urn to .URL?
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  220. # [04:19] <Hixie> othermaciej: how do you think i should address the use case of allowing a canvas to be uploaded to a server?
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  222. # [04:21] <othermaciej> Hixie: you mean other than the possibilities of uploading a data: URL or uploading the ImageData in a way you serialize yourself?
  223. # [04:22] <othermaciej> Hixie: I am going to try to get binary data on the agenda for the TC-39 meeting at Apple later this month, if they can be brought to actually care about the issue, then I'd recommend that
  224. # [04:23] <Hixie> k, i'll delay a bit longer then
  225. # [04:23] <Hixie> failing that i'll just provide a toBlob() to match toDataURL()
  226. # [04:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: I'm not super enthusiastic about the idea of using a File or Blob because it seems broken to me to use an interface that's intended for async-only access to persistently stored data for this use case
  227. # [04:24] <othermaciej> Hixie: but it may be better than nothing
  228. # [04:24] <Hixie> yeah that's more or less my position
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  285. # [06:28] <paradisaeidae_> I am attempting to factor in a number of html5 elements to a page. When I have a number of javascripts, gifs, svg and xhtml:body sections, then a page can reach 500k.
  286. # [06:28] <paradisaeidae_> This is the sort of size similar functionality is delivered by flash.
  287. # [06:28] <paradisaeidae_> Though there is a presentation hint possible with flash.
  288. # [06:28] <paradisaeidae_> The '...loading...' message.
  289. # [06:28] <paradisaeidae_> Is there a function in html5 spec which does anything similar?
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  318. # [08:09] <annevk> Google supports Microdata per @diveintomark
  319. # [08:09] <annevk> http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2010/03/microdata-support-for-rich-snippets.html
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  336. # [08:52] <annevk> oh hey, the IETF is having discussion on whether text/plain is still a suitable format on http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/maillist.html
  337. # [08:52] <annevk> funny
  338. # [08:56] <hsivonen> hah. framing the discussion as PS/PDF vs. plain text as opposed to HTML vs plain text
  339. # [08:57] <annevk> yeah, I've no idea how you can even start with suggesting PDF
  340. # [08:57] <annevk> something must be seriously wrong in the workflow of that guy
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  342. # [08:59] <hsivonen> and then the thread turn to .epub
  343. # [08:59] <hsivonen> wow
  344. # [09:00] <annevk> oh, I didn't get that far
  345. # [09:00] * annevk goes back reading
  346. # [09:00] <annevk> oh, that's actually early on, I skipped a few fun emails it seems
  347. # [09:01] * hsivonen wonders ow many messages it takes for someone to remind the others that this Web thing happened while they weren't paying attention
  348. # [09:04] <hsivonen> the credit goes to Julian: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg60576.html
  349. # [09:06] <zcorpan> i wonder why people refer to plain text as "ASCII"
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  351. # [09:07] <hsivonen> RFC plain text is ASCII, but yeah, it's interesting that moving to UTF-8 plain text wasn't proposed
  352. # [09:08] <annevk> Japanese guy freaked out over moving away from ASCII: http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf/current/msg60589.html
  353. # [09:08] <annevk> the interwebs is full of fascinating plot twists
  354. # [09:08] <hsivonen> oh, it's mentioned later in the thread
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  356. # [09:09] <annevk> as far as I can tell Julian and Tim are the only sane voices in that discussion
  357. # [09:09] <annevk> way to go IETF...
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  359. # [09:12] <MikeSmith> they are right that all the fancy graphics just detract from the essentials of the gaming experience
  360. # [09:13] <MikeSmith> the best games are just plain text, like the original Star Trek
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  362. # [09:14] <annevk> yeah
  363. # [09:14] <annevk> http://xkcd.com/91/
  364. # [09:14] <MikeSmith> heh
  365. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> "you don't need any extra junkware to be able to read the RFCs"
  366. # [09:15] <MikeSmith> they should put that the RFC boilerplate
  367. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> in bold type
  368. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> and/or italiced
  369. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> and in red
  370. # [09:16] <annevk> but they can't
  371. # [09:16] <annevk> that's not ASCII o_O
  372. # [09:16] <MikeSmith> oh damn
  373. # [09:17] <MikeSmith> I was going to say that they could make it hyperlink to a detailed explanation
  374. # [09:17] <hsivonen> You can read PDFs using less if you are cool enough. I have.
  375. # [09:18] <hsivonen> (be sure not the have flate streams in there, though, unless you can run deflate mentally)
  376. # [09:18] <zcorpan> hsivonen is cool
  377. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> you can read a lot of stuff using strings(1)
  378. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> with implied quotes in there somewhere
  379. # [09:19] <MikeSmith> maybe around the word read
  380. # [09:20] <zcorpan> i read PNGs by reading the PNG spec and then opening in a hex editor
  381. # [09:20] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: I think they like the word ASCII because is more l33t
  382. # [09:21] <MikeSmith> welcome to our hackers club. we do everything in ASCII. if you dont like it, get out of the computer room and go eat lunch in the cafeteria or somewhere instead
  383. # [09:22] <annevk> that hackers club must have some kind of millennium bug...
  384. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> they accidentally creating a worm hole with their mad hacking skillz and they are stuck in it
  385. # [09:24] <MikeSmith> and happy to be stuck in it
  386. # [09:28] <zcorpan> is google's impl of microdata conforming?
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  390. # [09:30] <hsivonen> zcorpan: dunno, but anyone wnting to use Google's impl for Microdata advocacy should find out.
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  395. # [09:47] <Lachy> where is Google's implementation of Microdata? Have they released the source, or just incorported it into their search engine somehow?
  396. # [09:48] <annevk> hsivonen, that's not how advocacy for RDFa worked...
  397. # [09:48] <annevk> or works, haven't followed it recently
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  403. # [10:14] * annevk wonders how long we'll have to wait before the lawyers at Google have sorted out VP8
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  409. # [10:34] <hsivonen> annevk: This is Microdata advocacy's chance to hold the moral high ground compared to RDFa advocacy.
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  412. # [10:35] <othermaciej> so I just noticed that it's effectively impossible to google for the phrase, "5 > 2"
  413. # [10:35] <othermaciej> that's kinda sad
  414. # [10:36] <annevk> hopefully it's a high priority bug
  415. # [10:36] <othermaciej> it should be!
  416. # [10:36] <othermaciej> (it's unbingable as well)
  417. # [10:37] <annevk> the other day I saw some people theorizing over what it might mean
  418. # [10:37] <annevk> apparently it was in a Google I/O presentation but not clarified; they thought it had something to do with Web 2.0
  419. # [10:38] <othermaciej> heh
  420. # [10:38] <othermaciej> was it in there as an inside joke or did they expect people to get the reference?
  421. # [10:39] <zcorpan> http://www.google.com/codesearch?hl=en&lr=&q=%5Cb5%5C+%3E%5C+2%5Cb&sbtn=Search
  422. # [10:39] <annevk> probably an inside joke; it has been an inside joke from the moment you made that t-shirt I think
  423. # [10:39] <MikeSmith> http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/wiki/RDFa-DOM-API
  424. # [10:39] <annevk> we should make some new t-shirts
  425. # [10:39] <othermaciej> it's been an inside joke since before I made the t-shirt
  426. # [10:39] <othermaciej> 5 > 2 is no longer an interesting statement
  427. # [10:40] <othermaciej> sadly 5 > f is not true (at least in hexadecimal)
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  429. # [10:40] <annevk> <i> &hearts; <html> is one I suggested for #fronteers once
  430. # [10:40] * Philip` would hypothesise that Google uses the same 'HTML' parser for Microdata as for RDFa, i.e. one that's more like an error-correcting XML parser, so it'll handle things like "<p whatever>...<p whatever>" as if they were nested
  431. # [10:40] <annevk> or s/<html>/HTML5/
  432. # [10:40] <zcorpan> 1.0 > 5
  433. # [10:41] <othermaciej> so here's one thing I don't get about people making RDF APIs
  434. # [10:41] <othermaciej> why is the interface always a flat list of triples?
  435. # [10:41] <othermaciej> I thought the whole point of RDF was that it has a graph structure, and the interesting thing to do is to traverse or make queries against the graph
  436. # [10:42] <othermaciej> if you completely drop the graph structure, what's the point?
  437. # [10:42] <othermaciej> it would be like having a DOM API where the only way to traverse nodes was as a flat list of all the nodes in the document
  438. # [10:43] <othermaciej> that's cute
  439. # [10:43] <othermaciej> too bad HTML5 has no version indicator so you can't do it in the syntax
  440. # [10:43] <othermaciej> finally, a critical use case for a version indicator!
  441. # [10:43] <annevk> <i> &hearts; <!doctype html> says enough
  442. # [10:44] <annevk> now we need some designer to make it look pretty :)
  443. # [10:45] <othermaciej> tragically monospace fonts don't seem to have a decent-looking solid heart glyph (at least not the ones on my machine)
  444. # [10:45] <othermaciej> I am amused that Mark Pilgrim still uses 5>2 as his twitter icon
  445. # [10:46] <othermaciej> I wonder how many of his followers get the reference
  446. # [10:46] <zcorpan> http://creatr.cc/creatr/logo/i%20hearts%20doctype%20html.png?1268387003
  447. # [10:46] <hsivonen> Is http://www.amazon.com/HTML5-Up-Running-Mark-Pilgrim/dp/0596806027/ref=pd_sim_b_1 the same content as Dive into HTML5?
  448. # [10:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: yes
  449. # [10:47] <othermaciej> whoah there's a surprising number of HTML5 books now
  450. # [10:48] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: really?
  451. # [10:48] <othermaciej> well, maybe I am naiive to be surprised
  452. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> I didn't know any printed HTML5 books had been published yet other than the ones that got published here in Japan
  453. # [10:49] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachlan@pat-tdc.opera.com)
  454. # [10:49] <annevk> if you search on Amazon you can see there's quite a few coming up
  455. # [10:49] <MikeSmith> I see now
  456. # [10:50] <annevk> most by people I don't know, which is encouraging
  457. # [10:50] <hsivonen> http://www.amazon.com/dp/0321719913 by tantek
  458. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> the book equivalent of vaporware, except I guess for Mark's, which is online already
  459. # [10:50] <MikeSmith> *content of which is already online
  460. # [10:50] * zcorpan notes that his video article is under BSD so someone could rip it off and use it in a book (assuming i understand the license correctly)
  461. # [10:50] <hsivonen> http://www.amazon.com/Introducing-HTML5-Voices-That-Matter/dp/0321687299/ref=pd_sim_sbs_b_2 brucel&remysharp
  462. # [10:52] * zcorpan also notes that he is happy to review books on html5, for anyone writing such books
  463. # [10:52] <MikeSmith> me sees franksalim as co-author on another of those books
  464. # [10:52] <hsivonen> I've volunteered to make some simple cross-browser <video> boilerplate and I can't decide if I should have unscripted Cortado fallback with the user of the cookbook having to put the video size and URL in multiple places or if I should have scripted fallback that copies the URL and size from the video element
  465. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> I want a T-shirt that symbolizes the statement, "Using HTML or PDF for RFCs is about the same as moving from English language RFCs to mandarin language RFCs"
  466. # [10:53] <MikeSmith> I think maybe the symbol of caveman hitting himself in the head with a brick might symbolize that sentiment pretty well
  467. # [10:53] <othermaciej> not sure if it can be expressed as a t-shirt slogan
  468. # [10:54] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think scripted easy-to-use are more successful
  469. # [10:56] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: the idea that HTML is seen as some mysterious foreign thing is kind of mind-boggling
  470. # [10:56] <zcorpan> hsivonen: does cortado support autoplay and different preload strategies?
  471. # [10:56] <othermaciej> is there really anyone with a computing environment that can't handle HTML at *least* as well as plain text?
  472. # [10:57] <vininim> hm, what's the best of way of inserting a <nav> block into the <body> tree of a page using external html?
  473. # [10:57] <Philip`> My mail clients can't
  474. # [10:57] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: I think the Martin Rex guy must be a sockpuppet attempt to make the RFCs-in-ASCII argument look as absurd as possible
  475. # [10:58] <othermaciej> my favorite part is when people linked the HTML versions of RFCs to demonstrate the awesomeness of plain text
  476. # [10:58] <zcorpan> vininim: external html?
  477. # [10:58] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: wow. I missed the "mandarin" argument when I first skimmed the thread
  478. # [10:58] <Dashiva> "Stone tablets were good enough for my ancestors, we don't need no stinking HTML specs"
  479. # [10:59] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I don't remember what tunable Cortado has
  480. # [10:59] <zcorpan> is there an iPad in stone?
  481. # [11:00] * Philip` notes that http://tools.ietf.org/rfc/rfc303.txt is still non-ASCII
  482. # [11:00] <hsivonen> Dashiva: stone tables have a proven archival track record
  483. # [11:00] <Dashiva> iPads are the devil's attempt at stone tablets
  484. # [11:00] <vininim> zcorpan: suppose I have a nav.html, boilerplater html and a nav block, and I want to insert this nav block on other pages.
  485. # [11:01] <othermaciej> Philip`: what is non-ASCII about it?
  486. # [11:01] <zcorpan> vininim: use server-side include
  487. # [11:01] <Philip`> othermaciej: The é
  488. # [11:02] <vininim> was going to use that as last resort, javascripting seems more fun!
  489. # [11:02] <webben> vininim: Less robust.
  490. # [11:03] <zcorpan> vininim: google won't be able to navigate your site if you include the nav with js
  491. # [11:03] <zcorpan> vininim: not to mention users that don't have js enabled
  492. # [11:04] <webben> or anyone in an untested browser where your JS happens to fail.
  493. # [11:04] <MikeSmith> Henrik Levkowetz deserves some serious props for setting up and maintaining the tools.ietf.org HTML stuff
  494. # [11:05] <annevk> why CSSImportRule has .media and .href is beyond me
  495. # [11:05] <annevk> grmbl
  496. # [11:05] <othermaciej> annevk: maybe the next t-shirt should be like a che guevara t-shirt but with Hixie instead
  497. # [11:05] <othermaciej> or would that bee too much out of MLW's playbook?
  498. # [11:05] <annevk> heh
  499. # [11:05] <hsivonen> do I need to turn of JavaScript to read the page Roy linked to without registering with Day Software?
  500. # [11:06] <annevk> what link?
  501. # [11:06] <hsivonen> http://dev.day.com/docs/en/cq/current/administering/multi_site_manager.html
  502. # [11:07] <othermaciej> hsivonen: that seems to show up ok for me without registering
  503. # [11:07] <hsivonen> hmm. appartly, the box can be dismissed by logging in with empty credentials
  504. # [11:07] <hsivonen> *apparently
  505. # [11:07] <zcorpan> Philip`: was my suggested grep completely broken?
  506. # [11:08] <othermaciej> hsivonen: oh interesting - I only got the annoyance box the second time I visited the page
  507. # [11:08] <Philip`> zcorpan: Don't know - I haven't got around to looking at it
  508. # [11:08] <Philip`> though I haven't completely forgotten it yet
  509. # [11:08] <zcorpan> ok
  510. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> othermaciej: MLW is way ahead of you, as usual
  511. # [11:10] <hsivonen> (I would recommend avoiding putting people engaged in violent activities on t-shirts that are supposed to convey a positive marketing message)
  512. # [11:10] <MikeSmith> he's already got a great T-shirt design - http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_27WEu4KHCYU/S5oK11NyJQI/AAAAAAAAAT0/nxCrMZB8sjw/s1600-h/microdata.gif
  513. # [11:11] <othermaciej> MikeSmith: not as iconic as Che, but sure, Microdata is Communism, I think that's obvious to anyone
  514. # [11:11] <annevk> I get a register overlay on that day.com site
  515. # [11:11] <MikeSmith> maybe MLW is Dick Cheney's daughter Liz
  516. # [11:12] <annevk> ctrl+w
  517. # [11:12] <othermaciej> in that case we should remake the Obama "Hope" poster
  518. # [11:12] <zcorpan> othermaciej: Che?
  519. # [11:12] <othermaciej> to signal our solidarity with the worker
  520. # [11:13] <othermaciej> zcorpan: this gentleman, who is a popular staple of hipster t-shirts: http://www.radiofuturamusic.com/v2/images/categories/TshirtCheRed.jpg
  521. # [11:13] <othermaciej> (probably most people wearing him on a shirt have no idea that he killed huge numbers of people)
  522. # [11:14] <zcorpan> ah
  523. # [11:14] <annevk> the onion variant is sort of funny, though not as good as their other t-shirts: http://hideyourarms.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/437.jpg
  524. # [11:15] <othermaciej> heh, yeah
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  526. # [11:15] <Dashiva> othermaciej: They were probably bad people anyway
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  531. # [11:18] <MikeSmith> I think what we really need is some kind of image that is iconic but that won't offend anybody; for example, an image of Jesus on the cross, with text underneath saying, "Jesus died for your XHTML sins."
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  533. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrlastweek/3730602918/ would make a great actual T-shirt
  534. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> I say we just go with that
  535. # [11:20] <othermaciej> how about a picture of Muhammad with HTML tags in his turban?
  536. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> now you're thinking
  537. # [11:20] <MikeSmith> some excellent brainstorming we go going here
  538. # [11:20] * Philip` likes the http://myserendipityblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/in-the-loop-0051.jpg version of the Hope poster
  539. # [11:21] <Dashiva> MikeSmith: Replace his face with someone else?
  540. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: <img hidden>
  541. # [11:21] <MikeSmith> Hixie looks like Sabretooth in that flickr T-shirt
  542. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> the brothers Wolverine, Sabretooth, Hixie
  543. # [11:22] <Dashiva> "XHTML2 died for your well-formedness errors"
  544. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> Dashiva: sublime
  545. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> hey maybe #whatwg should be the "non-X-Men"
  546. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> put a Magneto helmet on Hixie
  547. # [11:24] <Dashiva> Fighting Professor XHTML? :P
  548. # [11:24] <othermaciej> the Brotherhood of Markup Mutants?
  549. # [11:25] <Dashiva> Mutant Markup is sort of appropriate
  550. # [11:25] <Dashiva> All kinds of random errors, but some thrive and others fail to parse properly
  551. # [11:25] <Dashiva> Together, they drive the browser conformance criteria forward
  552. # [11:29] <zcorpan> Markup Mutant Ninja Microdata
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  554. # [11:41] <asmodai> Mmm, interesting post by Roland Steiner on the ruby subject @wwwint
  555. # [11:42] <jgraham> zcorpan: I now have the theme tune fron Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles in my head, damn you
  556. # [11:42] <workmad3> 'heros in a half-shell, TURTLE POWER!'
  557. # [11:42] <workmad3> or was it hard shell?
  558. # [11:42] <workmad3> been too long :)
  559. # [11:43] <workmad3> 'Thundercats are on the move, Thundercats are loose'
  560. # [11:43] <zcorpan> jgraham: now i know what to use as my ring tone
  561. # [11:43] <annevk> Lord of Markup
  562. # [11:43] <asmodai> workmad3: half shell I think
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  564. # [11:43] <asmodai> jgraham: You must be British btw
  565. # [11:43] <asmodai> jgraham: Since only the UK did the Ninja -> Hero conversion for what I remember :)
  566. # [11:43] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2010JanMar/0143.html
  567. # [11:44] <jgraham> zcorpan: Only if you want your phone brutally bludgeoned
  568. # [11:44] <jgraham> asmodai: Indeed
  569. # [11:44] <workmad3> asmodai: I think it was actually the cartoon / film difference
  570. # [11:44] <asmodai> annevk: Ah yes, apologies for not providing a link.
  571. # [11:44] <workmad3> cartoon = hero turtles, films = ninja turtles
  572. # [11:44] <jgraham> workmad3: I'm pretty sure the cartoon was Ninja in the US and Hero in the UK
  573. # [11:44] <jgraham> (I have no idea why)
  574. # [11:44] <workmad3> ah :)
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  576. # [11:45] <workmad3> spotty recollections of my youth :)
  577. # [11:45] <asmodai> The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (or simply Ninja Turtles, and previously known in the United Kingdom, Germany, Austria, Ireland and Scandinavia as Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles)
  578. # [11:45] <asmodai> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teenage_Mutant_Ninja_Turtles#Teenage_Mutant_Hero_Turtles
  579. # [11:45] <asmodai> Anyway
  580. # [11:45] <workmad3> (and besides, I didn't care what it was called in the states when I was 10 :P )
  581. # [11:45] <asmodai> annevk: how far off is that vertical text implementation for most UAs?
  582. # [11:45] <othermaciej> apparently the word "Ninja" was too violent for the UK (which strikes me as hella weird)
  583. # [11:46] <asmodai> annevk: I am not even sure if the HTML5 spec touches that, does it?
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  585. # [11:47] <workmad3> all this discussion leads to one important question though... who was your favourite hero/ninja turtle? :)
  586. # [11:47] <annevk> asmodai, far and not it doesn't (it shouldn't either)
  587. # [11:47] <annevk> s/not/no/
  588. # [11:47] <annevk> well, IE has support
  589. # [11:48] <annevk> it's clear to me people are actually waiting for vertical text support
  590. # [11:48] <asmodai> annevk: It would make some things easier, yes. :)
  591. # [11:48] <jgraham> workmad3: No it doesn't, it leads to the question if WHATWG/HTMLWG members were turtles, who would be April O'Neill
  592. # [11:48] <annevk> if we ever do it there would be a large amount of bugs and it would be vastly undertested :/
  593. # [11:48] <annevk> it's not clear to me, damn it
  594. # [11:48] <workmad3> jgraham: that's also an important one, along with who would be shredder? :)
  595. # [11:48] <asmodai> Especially if you consider the case of Mongolian and traditional writing of Japanese and/or Chinese and such languages.
  596. # [11:48] * annevk blames the keyboard
  597. # [11:49] <annevk> asmodai, but Japanese Web designers have not really been asking for it
  598. # [11:49] <annevk> so far it's just the print industry
  599. # [11:49] <asmodai> annevk: True.
  600. # [11:49] <annevk> and I don't really care about print
  601. # [11:49] <asmodai> annevk: Awww, why not?
  602. # [11:50] <annevk> because printing of the Web is dying
  603. # [11:50] * asmodai is a dying breed. :(
  604. # [11:51] <annevk> it's also wasteful imo
  605. # [11:51] <annevk> mind you, howcome strongly disagrees with me
  606. # [11:51] <workmad3> well, when you need a couple dozen rainforests to print out the entire thing, it's not hard to see why :P
  607. # [11:51] <asmodai> I hate reading on-screen.
  608. # [11:51] <asmodai> Especially since the DPI is still lagging far behind printed materials.
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  610. # [11:51] <othermaciej> printing is obsolete
  611. # [11:52] <daedb> http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2002/7/1/
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  621. # [12:33] <Lachy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saqO_ZqX6uY
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  630. # [13:01] <zcorpan> wonder why http://www.whatwg.org/issues/data.html doesn't work in opera
  631. # [13:01] <zcorpan> only shows the yellow bars and the text for me
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  633. # [13:05] <Philip`> zcorpan: Looks like just the averages lines are missing for me
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  635. # [13:06] <Philip`> which is probably http://philip.html5.org/tests/canvas/suite/tests/results.html#2d.path.lineTo.ensuresubpath.2
  636. # [13:07] <zcorpan> all lines are missing for me, but my build might be a bit old
  637. # [13:08] <zcorpan> Hixie: the graph looks a lot better if the months are abbreviated to three-letter labels
  638. # [13:08] <Philip`> or maybe it's not
  639. # [13:09] <Philip`> Oh, yes, it is that
  640. # [13:09] <Philip`> Opera foolishly implemented what the spec said, then the spec changed so now Opera is broken
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  642. # [13:10] <Philip`> (Adding some moveTo()s at the beginning of the line-drawing functions fixes it in Opera)
  643. # [13:11] <Philip`> When I said "averages lines" I actually meant "averages lines and also the lines which they are averages of"
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  681. # [14:52] <zcorpan> <[a-zA-Z][^>]*=\s*(("[^"]*)|('[^']*)|([^"']*))&(AElig|AMP|Aacute|Acirc|Agrave|Aring|Atilde|Auml|COPY|Ccedil|ETH|Eacute|Ecirc|Egrave|Euml|GT|Iacute|Icirc|Igrave|Iuml|LT|Ntilde|Oacute|Ocirc|Ograve|Oslash|Otilde|Ouml|QUOT|REG|THORN|Uacute|Ucirc|Ugrave|Uuml|Yacute|aacute|acirc|acute|aelig|agrave|amp|aring|atilde|auml|brvbar|ccedil|cedil|cent|copy|curren|deg|divide|eacute|ecirc|egrave|eth|euml|frac12|frac14|frac34|gt|iacute|i
  682. # [14:52] <zcorpan> uml|laquo|lt|macr|micro|middot|nbsp|not|ntilde|oacute|ocirc|ograve|ordf|ordm|oslash|otilde|ouml|para|plusmn|pound|quot|raquo|reg|sect|shy|sup1|sup2|sup3|szlig|thorn|times|uacute|ucirc|ugrave|uml|uuml|yacute|yen|yuml)[^;a-zA-Z0-9]
  683. # [14:53] <zcorpan> Philip`: the above should find no-semicolon entities in attribute value that's not followed by a-zA-Z0-9
  684. # [14:53] <zcorpan> Philip`: could you run a grep for that? :)
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  698. # [16:05] <Philip`> zcorpan: Remind me in several hours :-)
  699. # [16:13] <zcorpan> Philip`: i might not be around then
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  701. # [16:14] * Philip` will try to remember it himself
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  709. # [16:31] <hsivonen> has Hixie's Live Dom Viewer changed recently to push the content to the parser differently and less often?
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  719. # [16:58] <Dashiva> ASCII not what the spec can do for you, ask what you can do for the spec
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  726. # [17:05] <annevk> the Live DOM Viewer is buggy in Chrome
  727. # [17:05] <annevk> especially the w() function does not seem to execute instantly like I expect and like it does in other browsers
  728. # [17:05] <annevk> Hixie, ^^
  729. # [17:08] <Dashiva> So the main arguments for the RFC format seems to be "works for my 30-year old printer" and "it's eco-friendly"
  730. # [17:08] <Dashiva> Surely this is the perfect organization to lead us into the future
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  735. # [17:20] <jgraham> Dashiva: You seem to be concentrating on the logical arguments. The _main_ argument seems to be "get off my lawn"
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  737. # [17:22] <Dashiva> Good thing there's nobody around to blow up the ascii for names thing as racism and western imperialism
  738. # [17:24] <jgraham> I feel I should insert some sort of qualifier before "logical". Like "almost, but not"
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  740. # [17:27] <ment> from my programmer POV, ASCII manuals and references are much more convenient than PDFs
  741. # [17:28] <Dashiva> That's a false dilemma
  742. # [17:29] <Dashiva> (ASCII is a charset, not a file format)
  743. # [17:29] <ment> erm, plain text
  744. # [17:30] <ment> i thought you were arguing about format rather than charset
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  746. # [17:30] <Dashiva> Both, really
  747. # [17:31] <ment> well, with utf-8 i can get my cp437 box characters back
  748. # [17:31] <jgraham> And with HTML I can have hyperlinks
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  750. # [17:32] <jgraham> Seriously I don't know why PDF is even being discussed
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  752. # [17:32] <jgraham> The question should be phrased as "why aren't RFCs being published as (utf-8) HTML"
  753. # [17:33] <Dashiva> Because that won't print on my 30-years old printer using tools made before HTML came into being
  754. # [17:34] <jgraham> To which the correct response is "so?"
  755. # [17:35] <Dashiva> "Take your technical arguments elsewhere, whippersnapper"
  756. # [17:37] <jgraham> Anyway plain text RFCs are inconvenient too transcribe by hand-of-monk with illuminated letters since the number of characters per line is highly variable in that case, and the hardcoded headers and page breaks confuse the monks no end
  757. # [17:37] <jgraham> s/too/to/
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  759. # [17:38] <Dashiva> hand-of-monk is obsolete since RFC 1217
  760. # [17:39] <ment> (replaced by hand-of-monkey)
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  764. # [17:58] <Philip`> If you allow people to write specs in HTML, soon they'll be using SVG graphics and embedding JavaScript in every page
  765. # [17:59] <Philip`> and there would be no end to the madness
  766. # [18:02] <Philip`> Also, you can bet a lot of people would write their HTML-formatted specs in Microsoft Word
  767. # [18:03] <annevk> yeah, because that is exactly what happened at the W3C
  768. # [18:04] <jgraham> Gosh, if only technology had advanced to the level where we could automatically check a file against a set of rules before publication. Then one could enforce whatever rules one pleased and avoid that whole issue
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  770. # [18:05] <jgraham> It's sad that no one has managed to develop such a system
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  774. # [18:07] <annevk> governments would pay millions
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  788. # [18:37] <AryehGregor> Ah, so Google spiders finally support microdata.
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  790. # [18:41] <Philip`> Presumably with bugs, though
  791. # [18:41] <boblet> Philip`: maybe Microdata is so simple they don’t have any bugs?
  792. # [18:42] <boblet> ;)
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  794. # [18:47] <Dashiva> Philip`: I thought you would have a test case showing the bugs by now
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  797. # [18:56] <Philip`> Dashiva: I didn't really care enough
  798. # [18:56] <Philip`> but things like http://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/richsnippets?url=http%3A%2F%2Fphilip.html5.org%2Fdemos%2Fmicrodata%2Fsibling-p.html are obvious bugs
  799. # [18:56] <Dashiva> So your bias is coming through :P
  800. # [18:56] <Philip`> (The same bugs affect the RDFa parsing)
  801. # [18:56] <Philip`> (because it's not using anything like an HTML parser when parsing the HTML)
  802. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> Interesting.
  803. # [18:57] <Dashiva> Well, that's equal opportunity at least
  804. # [18:57] <AryehGregor> Hixie had sort of vaguely hinted at some point that Google might possibly be using an HTML5 parser for some things internally.
  805. # [18:57] <Philip`> Clearly this isn't one of those things
  806. # [18:58] <Dashiva> This isn't a HTMLx parser for any value of x
  807. # [18:58] <Philip`> It seemed kind of like XML5 minus the complex bits (doctypes etc) when I last looked
  808. # [18:58] <AryehGregor> There's no such thing as an HTMLx parser for x < 5, at least if we're confining our discussion to real life.
  809. # [18:59] <Dashiva> Philip`: And minus the well-formedness?
  810. # [18:59] <annevk> I thought Ian once said they use some kind of graph representation
  811. # [18:59] <Philip`> AryehGregor: There are parsers which attempt to be compatible with the syntax defined by HTMLx for x < 5, and they'll all handle <p>foo<p>bar correctly since that's a basic part of HTML syntax
  812. # [19:00] <Philip`> Dashiva: I thought XML5 didn't do well-formedness
  813. # [19:00] <Dashiva> I thought it did, but with relaxed constraints
  814. # [19:00] <AryehGregor> Google doesn't handle <p>foo<p>bar properly? o_O
  815. # [19:00] <Dashiva> Not in their snippets tool
  816. # [19:00] <Philip`> I assume they use a different parser for serious things like search indexing
  817. # [19:01] <Philip`> annevk: I vaguely remember him just saying they parse into some kind of internal representation that isn't RDF
  818. # [19:02] <Philip`> (Presumably they use the same one for RDFa and microdata and microformats, so just the parser is changed)
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  821. # [19:03] <annevk> Philip`, I meant for HTML in general
  822. # [19:03] <annevk> Philip`, not this stuff
  823. # [19:03] <annevk> Philip`, because they want streaming and do not want to modify a tree
  824. # [19:04] <annevk> Philip`, but do want to recognize the effects of <i><b>test</i>test</b>
  825. # [19:06] <Philip`> Oh
  826. # [19:06] * Philip` is unaware of that
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  855. # [20:10] <annevk> MikeSmithXX, I forwarded someone in your direction regarding HTML5; she wanted to chat to some other people involved
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  859. # [20:30] <franksalim> MikeSmithXX, I see that book, too :-)
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  871. # [21:17] <zcorpan> Philip`: reminder :)
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  880. # [21:47] * hsivonen notes that Google's link to "Official microdata specification" points to whatwg.org--not w3.org
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  885. # [21:57] <hsivonen> Hixie: why doesn't http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#current-document-readiness have the uninitialized and interactive states?
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  911. # [23:11] <asmodai> heh, sweet http://desandro.com/articles/opera-logo-css/
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  927. # [23:42] <annevk> now all that's left between me and baked cookies is the HTTP WG
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  929. # [23:44] <jgraham> annevk: Presumably he might poison the cookies to reduce dissent
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  945. # Session Close: Sat Mar 13 00:00:00 2010

The end :)