/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-04-29 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 29 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  38. # [01:25] <dglazkov> Hixie: 4.10.21.3 form submission algorithm is inspired by ...?
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  60. # [02:52] <KaOSoFt> Looking at the current specification, how can I know if an element is block or in-line?
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  63. # [03:00] <divya> KaOSoFt: are you talking about content models or the CSS rendering?
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  65. # [03:03] <KaOSoFt> Well, I'm not versed in this technical chat, but I guess I'm talking about a content model. Is <section> a "block" element? Like <div> and <span> (block and in-line).
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  67. # [03:04] <divya> KaOSoFt: there are no more "block" and "inline" http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/section-index.html#element-content-categories
  68. # [03:04] <KaOSoFt> Oh, I see, that's why I didn't find any information about it.
  69. # [03:05] <KaOSoFt> Thank you very much, you kind sire.
  70. # [03:05] <KaOSoFt> :)
  71. # [03:05] <KaOSoFt> And goodbye, time to go back home.
  72. # [03:05] <divya> KaOSoFt: :) bye
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  85. # [04:07] <nessy> Hixie: how is progress on the captions stuff?
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  87. # [04:11] <micheil> where's that interactive tool for viewing the works in progress located again?
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  89. # [04:25] <Hixie> nessy: pretty good. I've been trying to figure out which format would be best to use or extend: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Timed_track_formats
  90. # [04:29] <othermaciej> Hixie: people have claimed that the smilText subset of SMIL can be used as a timed text format
  91. # [04:29] <othermaciej> I'm not sure anyone identified a well-defined SMIL profile for this purpose
  92. # [04:29] <othermaciej> (I mention this because your page says "not a caption format")
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  94. # [04:31] <othermaciej> http://www.w3.org/TR/SMIL/smil-text.html
  95. # [04:31] <othermaciej> looks like a weird mix of SMIL and DXFP
  96. # [04:31] <Hixie> oh that's not the same as DXFP?
  97. # [04:31] <Hixie> good to know
  98. # [04:31] <Hixie> i'll add it to the list
  99. # [04:33] <othermaciej> no, DFXP (aka TTML aka ttaf1-dfxp) is this: http://www.w3.org/TR/ttaf1-dfxp/
  100. # [04:33] <Hixie> good lord how many names can one standard have
  101. # [04:34] <othermaciej> I know, right?
  102. # [04:34] <othermaciej> and TTML is the only one I can type without scrambling the letters
  103. # [04:35] <othermaciej> and it's the title of the spec, but does not even appear in the shortname, and the Status of this Document section uses a different title to refer to it than the actual title
  104. # [04:35] <Hixie> relatedly: in doing my research i keep coming across the assertion that RealText is SMIL. e.g. wikipedia actually had RealText be a hyperlink to the SMIL page. But I can't find anything that actually supports that.
  105. # [04:35] <Hixie> i changed the wikipedia page
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  107. # [04:37] <othermaciej> this seems like a really confusing area
  108. # [04:38] <Hixie> yeah
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  115. # [05:06] <nessy> TTML was a last-minute invention
  116. # [05:06] <Hixie> the name?
  117. # [05:06] <nessy> I wished they had kept DFXP because then TTML would have been free to use for something else
  118. # [05:06] <nessy> yes, the name
  119. # [05:06] <Hixie> heh
  120. # [05:07] <nessy> cause … I kinda like the name timed text markup language !
  121. # [05:07] <Hixie> DFXP is a pretty bad name
  122. # [05:07] <nessy> all historic and academic
  123. # [05:07] <Hixie> seems like pretty much every name has been taken already
  124. # [05:07] <nessy> so about SMIL ...
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  126. # [05:08] <nessy> SMILText is a spec they developed only rather recently
  127. # [05:08] <nessy> RealText was there before
  128. # [05:08] <nessy> and it was based on a subset of an earlier SMIL spec
  129. # [05:08] <nessy> unfortunately "SMIL" is being used for all sorts of things, when it is really always just a tiny subpart of SMIL
  130. # [05:09] <nessy> DAISY for example takes a subpart and extends it
  131. # [05:09] <Hixie> RealText doesn't seem to have anything to do with SMIL, does it? Or does using "begin" and "end" attributes in an XML format mean that you're using SMIL?
  132. # [05:09] <nessy> the Microsoft server manifest for Smooth Streaming is a tiny subpart of SMIL and is still called a "SMIL" use
  133. # [05:09] <nessy> lol
  134. # [05:10] <Hixie> i'm not even sure RealText is actually XML
  135. # [05:10] <Hixie> and the microsoft thing is definitely not XML
  136. # [05:10] <Hixie> so apparently XML isn't even a requirement
  137. # [05:10] <nessy> anything on the Web that used to do anything with media was called a SMIL technology at one stage
  138. # [05:10] <nessy> it's all being handled in a very loose manner
  139. # [05:11] <nessy> (which annoys the crap out of me, but don't tell anyone)
  140. # [05:11] <roc> it's great, everyone uses SMIL so browsers should too
  141. # [05:11] <annevk> that's certainly the TTML sentiment
  142. # [05:12] <Hixie> so should I just put SMIL into the title of whatever we're doing and then pretend we're doing SMIL too?
  143. # [05:12] <nessy> I think RealText was the way to synchronise text with SMIL before SMILText was created
  144. # [05:12] <nessy> Hixie: that would certainly solve the political situation!
  145. # [05:12] <annevk> hmm, the Ubuntu countdown went from 1 day left to available soon, but what does that mean?
  146. # [05:12] <nessy> suddenly SMIL would be a success on the Web
  147. # [05:12] <Hixie> we can call it "SCF" and say it stands for "SMIL Captioning Format" (but really it would stand for "Subtitles and Captions Format")
  148. # [05:12] <nessy> anyway - I am sarcastic today, pardon my mood
  149. # [05:13] <Hixie> don't worry, sarcasm is a prerequisite for being in the channel
  150. # [05:13] <Hixie> how else would the false controversies emerge but for our sarcasm
  151. # [05:14] <nessy> I'm sure someone will hold it in my face at the right opportunity
  152. # [05:15] <nessy> btw 3GPP-TT is a subpart of an early version of DFXP
  153. # [05:15] <nessy> years ago I had a student do an analysis of available subtitle formats - you can still find the result here: https://trac.annodex.net/wiki/CmmlSubtitles
  154. # [05:16] <nessy> Microsoft's SAMI wasn't actually that bad!
  155. # [05:16] <Hixie> SAMI is a disaster from the point of view of us speccing it and/or extending it
  156. # [05:16] <nessy> it's not support any more anyway
  157. # [05:16] <roc> I just found out that "Adobe Digital Editions" supports an "extended EPUB" ebook format ... which mixes XHTML, CSS and XSL-FO. And whoever produced it is kinda bitter about CSS3
  158. # [05:16] <Hixie> we'd have to reverse engineer their HTML-like parser
  159. # [05:17] <Hixie> roc: url?
  160. # [05:17] <nessy> EPUB is produced by the DAISY guys
  161. # [05:17] <roc> http://blogs.adobe.com/digitaleditions/template.html ... "Since CSS group chose to ignore a lot of perevious work in this area (e.g. inventing its own expression syntax for media queries instead of using XPath, designing its own incompatible replacement of page master instead of building on top of XSL:FO)"
  162. # [05:17] <Hixie> nessy: (will check that link, thanks)
  163. # [05:17] <nessy> (see if there is anything useful there for you)
  164. # [05:18] <Hixie> roc: huh. i wonder who wrote that.
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  166. # [05:34] <roc> Peter Sorotokin
  167. # [05:37] <Hixie> ah, interesting
  168. # [05:37] <Hixie> he's the guy with whom i had a lot of, ah, discussions, in the sxbl days
  169. # [05:38] <annevk> comparing Selectors with XPath makes sense I suppose, but Media Queries and XPath?
  170. # [05:39] <othermaciej> wait, why would you use XPath for Media Queries?
  171. # [05:39] * othermaciej arches both eyebrows
  172. # [05:39] <othermaciej> s/why/how/?
  173. # [05:39] <othermaciej> and criticizing CSS for not building on top of XSL FO?
  174. # [05:39] <othermaciej> my head is exploding
  175. # [05:41] <roc> someone recently told me we should build stuff on XSL-FO instead of CSS because XSL-FO is a REC and CSS 2.1 isn't
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  177. # [05:52] <annevk> interesting how hard it is to replace the HTML parser
  178. # [05:52] <annevk> initially I wouldn't have thought that, but I guess I didn't know much about how intertwined it was
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  182. # [06:00] <Hixie> annevk: in opera you mean?
  183. # [06:03] <annevk> Gecko, we haven't quite started
  184. # [06:09] <roc> I'm sure Henri can tell you about all kinds of problems
  185. # [06:09] <roc> :-)
  186. # [06:10] <othermaciej> I'm glad Mozilla is biting the bullet on this first
  187. # [06:10] <annevk> yeah, it's pretty cool
  188. # [06:11] <othermaciej> seems like the best way to flush out potential problems with the parsing algorithm itself
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  201. # [07:00] <Hixie> annevk: i expect opera will have a harder time, because of the way misnested tags are currently handled
  202. # [07:07] <annevk> I doubt that is the hardest part, but we'll find out
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  205. # [07:11] <boogyman> Hixie: I am not sure if this was answered before, but what would happen if the server side attempted to assign a value to an <input> or <textarea> greater than that afforded by an explicit maxlength value
  206. # [07:13] <Hixie> anyone here at WWW2010?
  207. # [07:13] <boogyman> originally queried at http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100427#l-928
  208. # [07:14] <Hixie> boogyman: you mean in the markup? like <input value=123 maxlength=2> ?
  209. # [07:15] <boogyman> Hixie: yes, that's an appropriate example
  210. # [07:20] <Hixie> let me see...
  211. # [07:20] * Hixie opens the spec
  212. # [07:21] <Hixie> nothing in particular seems to happen if it's set by the server
  213. # [07:21] <Hixie> it'll submit fine and it doesn't get truncated
  214. # [07:22] <Hixie> it probably doesn't bode well that the W3C is explicitly describing itself as split into two camps, RDF and HTML5... http://www.w3.org/2010/04/w3c-track.html
  215. # [07:22] <boogyman> so it should behave as if the 'user' has entered the text
  216. # [07:23] <othermaciej> Hixie: I don't think that's how they meant it
  217. # [07:23] <othermaciej> Hixie: I assume they mean "camp" in the sense of "something like Foo Camp"
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  220. # [07:26] <Hixie> boogyman: no, if the user enters the text then when they submit it they'll get a message saying the text is too long
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  222. # [07:26] <zcorpan> Hixie: i think the way misnested tags are currently handled will just be dead code when we have an html5 parser, so i think that won't be hard at all to remove :)
  223. # [07:26] <Hixie> true
  224. # [07:27] <Hixie> zcorpan: btw re the websocket stuff
  225. # [07:27] <Hixie> still going through my mail from having been off sick for a day
  226. # [07:27] <Hixie> but
  227. # [07:27] <Hixie> i don't think it matters where you drop the connection if you drop the connection
  228. # [07:27] <Hixie> since it's black-box indistinguishable
  229. # [07:28] <Hixie> however, you shouldn't use your HTTP parser, since it does different things (like continuation lines)
  230. # [07:28] <Hixie> and it might do error handling differently
  231. # [07:28] <Hixie> since HTTP doesn't say how to do error handling
  232. # [07:28] <zcorpan> Hixie: it's not black-box indistinguishable if the server sleeps half-way
  233. # [07:28] <zcorpan> Hixie: yeah
  234. # [07:29] <Hixie> the client is always allowed to insert aribitrary sleeps anywhere
  235. # [07:29] <Hixie> nothing in the spec defines the performance characteristics of a websocket client
  236. # [07:30] <zcorpan> Hixie: if the server responds "HTTP/1.1 200" and then sleeps, we want to abort but the spec doesn't allow it
  237. # [07:30] <zcorpan> since we haven't seen an 0x0A byte yet
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  239. # [07:32] <zcorpan> continuation lines is something i should test
  240. # [07:36] <Hixie> hm yeah i should allow the UA to break early if it can prove that it wouldn't ever accept the connection
  241. # [07:36] <Hixie> assume that i'll make that allowed
  242. # [07:37] <Hixie> i hadn't thought of breaking early
  243. # [07:38] <zcorpan> Hixie: thanks
  244. # [07:38] <Hixie> in case i forget by the time i reply to your e-mail, just remind me of the above :-)
  245. # [07:39] <zcorpan> ok
  246. # [07:39] <Hixie> it won't mean i changed my mind or anything, just that i forgot
  247. # [07:44] <Hixie> man, some reporters ask the most inane questions
  248. # [07:49] <boogyman> agreed
  249. # [07:50] <zcorpan> such as "when will html5 be finished?"?
  250. # [07:50] <Hixie> no, that one i know how to answer
  251. # [07:50] <annevk> wir
  252. # [07:50] <Peter`> They probably wouldn't believe you, since browser vendors have already implemented HTML 5!
  253. # [07:50] <Hixie> i mean things like "do people use all of html4?"
  254. # [07:50] <Peter`> Gotta love marketing..
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  262. # [08:09] <Hixie> wow, check out the number of errors in this article
  263. # [08:09] <Hixie> http://www.instantshift.com/2010/04/26/html5-worth-the-hype/
  264. # [08:10] <boogyman> 157 html errors lol
  265. # [08:10] <Hixie> oh i didn't mean validation errors
  266. # [08:10] <Hixie> i meant in the text
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  271. # [08:21] <zcorpan> "To use HTML5 you will need to use a specific scripting API such as:"
  272. # [08:22] <JonathanNeal> "javascript"
  273. # [08:22] <hsivonen> most of the problems I've been dealing with haven't been about the HTML5 parsing algorithm but about our test cases being bogus in a way that has stayed latent with the particular timing quirks of Gecko's old parser
  274. # [08:22] <JonathanNeal> "4chan"
  275. # [08:22] <zcorpan> seems like they copied some from wikipedia and edited it so it would be less obvious that they copied it from wikipedia
  276. # [08:26] * Joins: zalan (~zalan@catv-89-135-108-81.catv.broadband.hu)
  277. # [08:31] <annevk> Ivan!
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  284. # [08:37] <zcorpan> yeah i wonder who ivan is
  285. # [08:37] <zcorpan> maybe Hixie should change his irc nick to Ivan
  286. # [08:37] <othermaciej> ivan who?
  287. # [08:38] <zcorpan> Ivan Hickson
  288. # [08:38] <boogyman> lol
  289. # [08:38] * othermaciej chortles
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  300. # [09:10] <hsivonen> zcorpan: I filed the REPLACEMENT CHARACTER bug as https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=562590. thanks.
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  302. # [09:19] <annevk> http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2010/04/28/product-feedback-systems.aspx o_O
  303. # [09:19] <annevk> Microsoft seems to be upping the FUD machine recently
  304. # [09:19] <annevk> though maybe it is just me
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  316. # [09:47] <Hixie> annevk: that does seem a bit rude
  317. # [09:48] <Hixie> but they have a point
  318. # [09:48] <zcorpan> hsivonen: other cases you might want to test are %e0%80, %f0%80%80, %f5%80%80%80 etc
  319. # [09:52] <hsivonen> zcorpan: ok
  320. # [09:54] <othermaciej> what is the FUD there?
  321. # [09:54] <othermaciej> "bugzilla will cause you to be spammed"?
  322. # [09:56] <Hixie> i don't think it's FUD
  323. # [09:56] <othermaciej> ok, having read more of it, it looks like they are pretty directly calling out at least some other browser vendors
  324. # [09:56] <othermaciej> I am surprised Microsoft would post such direct competitive statements on the IE blog
  325. # [09:57] <Hixie> it seems like a dangerous game for them to play, because if they piss off a browser vendor doing this kind of thing, there's plenty of material that can be thrown back at them
  326. # [09:58] <othermaciej> one thing he overlooks is that the WebKit project completely ignores the difference between "new" and "unconfirmed"
  327. # [10:00] <hsivonen> In my experience, Firefox and WebKit nightlies as well as Opera roughly-weeklies are quite usable enough to expose to interested parties
  328. # [10:00] <Hixie> i only use nightly builds
  329. # [10:00] <othermaciej> I doubt anyone from the WebKit project is interested in getting into a pissing match with Microsoft over who manages feedback better
  330. # [10:00] <Hixie> of webkit, chrome, firefox, and opera -- i haven't even got a stable build of a browser on my machine, as far as i know
  331. # [10:01] <othermaciej> is it a Mac?
  332. # [10:01] <Hixie> yeah
  333. # [10:01] <othermaciej> you probably have a stable build of Safari and of the associated WebKit
  334. # [10:01] <othermaciej> even if you don't browse with it
  335. # [10:01] <Hixie> ah probably, yeah
  336. # [10:01] <zcorpan> i think i've had higher FIXED rate when filing bugs at mozilla compared to filing bugs at microsoft
  337. # [10:02] <Hixie> i think that comes up when i accidentally pick "search in google" from a context menu
  338. # [10:02] <othermaciej> or rather, you do browse with that Safari, cause that's what the WebKit nightly launcher uses
  339. # [10:02] <Hixie> (grrr @ apple)
  340. # [10:02] <othermaciej> you can make the nightly launcher your default browser I believe
  341. # [10:02] <zcorpan> all microsoft feedback was "actioned", but i don't care if a bug is "RESOLVED POSTPONED" or still unconfirmed
  342. # [10:02] <Hixie> can i make chrome the default? :-)
  343. # [10:02] <Hixie> or firefox? :-)
  344. # [10:02] <othermaciej> zcorpan: well, "postponed" means it was considered and rejected, rather than just not acted on it yet
  345. # [10:02] <othermaciej> Hixie: yes
  346. # [10:02] <Hixie> how?
  347. # [10:03] <othermaciej> you can make any browser your default browser
  348. # [10:03] <othermaciej> they have built-in UI, and Safari also has UI in prefs that lets you make any browser the default browser
  349. # [10:03] <Hixie> so that "search in google" launches that browser?
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  351. # [10:03] <hsivonen> Hixie: sometimes the setting resets back to safari at login, in which case you have to go through various .plists or whatever and delete the right one
  352. # [10:03] <othermaciej> I actually don't know how the "search in google" context menu is coded, it's in AppKit I think
  353. # [10:04] <othermaciej> it's possible that it doesn't correctly respect the default browser setting, unlike nearly anything else on the system
  354. # [10:04] <zcorpan> othermaciej: yeah. although for at least one of my bugs at microsoft it was clear that they hadn't considered the bug at all when closing it
  355. # [10:04] <hsivonen> I managed to delete the right thing on my work Mac but on my home Mac, I still need to make Minefield the default after every login
  356. # [10:04] <Hixie> (i actually don't use the nightly launcher btw, i just use whatever it is that causes webkit to offer me a prompt to update the build)
  357. # [10:04] <othermaciej> zcorpan: closing something without giving it actual consideration is worse than leaving it "unconfirmed" or "new" :-/
  358. # [10:05] <othermaciej> Hixie: I believe the nightly launcher updates itself automagically now
  359. # [10:05] <Hixie> othermaciej: yeah, looks like it's ignoring the seeting. I dragged a favicon from webkit to the dock, then clicked on it, and chrome opened. So I assume chrome is the default.
  360. # [10:05] <othermaciej> Hixie: yes, probably
  361. # [10:06] <Hixie> anyway, didn't mean to turn this into a gripefest :-)
  362. # [10:06] <othermaciej> Hixie: if you open Safari (or a WebKit nightly) and look at general preferences, it will tell you what the system default is supposed to be
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  364. # [10:06] <othermaciej> WebKit nightlies do tend to be reasonably stable, though there is the occasional build with a bad bug
  365. # [10:07] <hsivonen> well, recently with Minefield, I lost xkcd tooltips for a few days
  366. # [10:07] <hsivonen> and then on Mac if you have Flash 10.1 installed, things aren't so great right now
  367. # [10:08] <Hixie> i had a chrome build recently where using a <select> made <textarea>s ignore any function keys (like backspace or arrow keys), which was fun while that lasted
  368. # [10:08] <Hixie> but that's why i have four browsers!
  369. # [10:08] <Hixie> i wish opera nightlies autoupdated, they don't seem to
  370. # [10:08] <hsivonen> so I went back to Flash 10.0.x.x on the computer where I want Flash to actually work (after filing my stack trace of course)
  371. # [10:09] <hsivonen> Hixie: for me on Mac, Opera autodownloads updates and then fails to install them
  372. # [10:09] <Hixie> i've seen that too
  373. # [10:09] <Hixie> but more recently it just doesn't seem to download anything at all
  374. # [10:10] <zcorpan> Hixie: have you checked opera:config#AutoUpdate|DownloadAllSnapshots ?
  375. # [10:10] * Hixie looks
  376. # [10:11] <Hixie> it is unchecked
  377. # [10:11] <Hixie> do i just check it?
  378. # [10:11] <Hixie> how does it know to update to the nightlies and not release builds?
  379. # [10:11] <zcorpan> yep, it should enable autoupdate of weeklies
  380. # [10:11] <hsivonen> zcorpan: is it supposed to work on Ubuntu?
  381. # [10:12] <zcorpan> Hixie: it knows by looking at the pref
  382. # [10:12] <zcorpan> hsivonen: i think so, but haven't tested
  383. # [10:12] <Hixie> oh, that's what snapshot means
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  385. # [10:12] <Hixie> cunning
  386. # [10:12] <Hixie> oooh
  387. # [10:12] <Hixie> hey awesome
  388. # [10:12] <Hixie> thanks dude
  389. # [10:12] <othermaciej> hsivonen: Flash 10.1 has some bugs in its CA drawing model code, which is only enabled for WebKit nightlies currently
  390. # [10:12] <zcorpan> Hixie: it works?
  391. # [10:13] * Joins: tndH (~Rob@cpc2-leed18-0-0-cust427.leed.cable.ntl.com)
  392. # [10:13] <othermaciej> hsivonen: there are also, I think, some bugs in our side of the code that didn't get flushed out with previous plugins
  393. # [10:13] <hsivonen> othermaciej: I believe I saw CA on the Minefield+OOPP+Flash 10.1 stack I filed
  394. # [10:14] <othermaciej> maybe they are trying to use it on Minefield and failing
  395. # [10:14] <hsivonen> this was after out-of-process CA was enabled in Minefield, but clearly they are failing
  396. # [10:15] <Hixie> zcorpan: yup
  397. # [10:16] <hsivonen> iframes created with innerHTML fire load events normally, right?
  398. # [10:24] * hsivonen wonders why so many test cases try to avoid simply listening for the load event and do something else and incorrect
  399. # [10:25] <Hixie> no spec before html5 defined innerHTML or load events, so it's not hard to imagine that people wouldn't be sure of what was the right thing
  400. # [10:25] <hsivonen> s/listening/waiting/ or s/for/to/ I guess
  401. # [10:27] <annevk> zcorpan, I don't believe that works on Ubuntu
  402. # [10:27] <annevk> zcorpan, as we integrate with the system there
  403. # [10:28] <annevk> but maybe...
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  408. # [10:39] <zcorpan> Hixie: nice
  409. # [11:01] * zcorpan files https://connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/details/555265/video-should-not-fall-back-even-if-the-video-fails
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  411. # [11:09] <JonathanNeal> Good bug to file :)
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  414. # [11:15] * zcorpan gets an email saying:
  415. # [11:15] <zcorpan> This is a text part of the message.
  416. # [11:15] <zcorpan> It is shown for the users of old-style e-mail clients
  417. # [11:15] <zcorpan> why thank you, that's helpful
  418. # [11:16] <hsivonen> zcorpan: does ie9 have the blue border around linked images by default?
  419. # [11:17] <zcorpan> hsivonen: don't know
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  425. # [11:48] <roc> does the IE9 preview actually support video now?
  426. # [11:49] <Philip`> No
  427. # [11:49] <Philip`> though I guess it's about time for them to release a new preview now
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  430. # [12:00] <hsivonen> when I try to sign in to see zcorpan's bug report, I get The content that you requested cannot be found or you do not have permission to view it.
  431. # [12:02] <Philip`> hsivonen: Works for me and says "Access Restriction: Public"
  432. # [12:03] <Philip`> (Apparently I am a participant in the Internet Explorer Tech Feedback Program which may make a difference)
  433. # [12:04] <hsivonen> around the IE8 time, IIRC, I decided against enrolling into that program due to terms that would have been unwise to accept while working on a competing product
  434. # [12:06] <hsivonen> apparently now there's a lesser level of Microsoft Connect access available under less scary terms
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  470. # [14:53] <Dashiva> On the .URL topic, what about also adding document.url? It leaves back compat in place, but lets authors standardize on .url for everything in new content
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  485. # [15:16] <jgraham> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#dom-context-2d-drawimage does that actually say in normative text that TYPE_MISMATCH_ERROR should be raised if the first argument is the wrong type (other than null)
  486. # [15:18] <Philip`> jgraham: WebIDL says it must
  487. # [15:18] <Philip`> (hopefully)
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  489. # [15:18] <Philip`> (HTML5 used to say it but it was removed because it's redundant with WebIDL, I believe)
  490. # [15:19] <jgraham> Ah, I hoped it would be somrthing like that
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  493. # [15:33] <GPHemsley> So... Team Rocket started off the discussion on headers...
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  498. # [15:46] <jgraham> zcorpan: yt?
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  504. # [16:05] <remysharp> Am I right in saying that Web Workers *aren't* spec'ed to use JSON to automatically convert objects - whereas Firefox have implemented this as an extra: https://developer.mozilla.org/En/Using_web_workers#Sending_objects_to_workers
  505. # [16:05] <micheil> oh, hey remy
  506. # [16:06] <remysharp> micheil: hi there.
  507. # [16:06] <micheil> remysharp: jsbin wasn't it?
  508. # [16:06] <remysharp> yep
  509. # [16:06] <micheil> yeah, nice work there
  510. # [16:06] <remysharp> cheers :)
  511. # [16:07] <Philip`> remysharp: As far as I'm aware, it should use http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/urls.html#safe-passing-of-structured-data to transfer objects
  512. # [16:08] <remysharp> Philip`: so in fact it shouldn't be giving me a string on the other side each time?
  513. # [16:08] <remysharp> it should be able to handle some objects and types
  514. # [16:10] <gsnedders> Anyone have IE9 at hand?
  515. # [16:10] <Philip`> remysharp: I think so, unless I'm mistaken
  516. # [16:10] <remysharp> Philip`: cheers - shame most of the browsers don't do that yet, but I'm sure they'll catch up!
  517. # [16:11] <Philip`> Looks like Workers use http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/comms.html#dom-messageport-postmessage
  518. # [16:11] <Philip`> which uses that structured clone algorithm
  519. # [16:11] * Philip` wishes it wasn't so hard to find definitions of these functions
  520. # [16:11] <Philip`> (since the Workers spec doesn't seem to have any direct link to it)
  521. # [16:12] <micheil> hmm.. did html5 introduce a module tag?
  522. # [16:12] <micheil> / element
  523. # [16:13] <gsnedders> Philip`: Is that because of lack of xdoc xref?
  524. # [16:14] <micheil> actually no. looks like site is using their own xml schema
  525. # [16:17] <jgraham> gsnedders: Everything is your fault
  526. # [16:22] * Quits: kfirst (~chatzilla@pc154-c716.uibk.ac.at) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100401074458])
  527. # [16:23] * gsnedders looks innocent
  528. # [16:23] <micheil> gsnedders: hmm.. mozilla dev, yes?
  529. # [16:24] <micheil> or atleast, their irc channels.
  530. # [16:24] <TabAtkins> Oh, wow. This article Ian linked to a few hours ago really *is* just a copypastad and lightly editted wikipedia article.
  531. # [16:24] <TabAtkins> If not, then this person is *really bad* at writing.
  532. # [16:26] <gsnedders> micheil: Opera QA, ocasionally on irc.mozilla.org
  533. # [16:26] <micheil> gsnedders: ah, okay, I've just seen the name about
  534. # [16:27] <hsivonen> micheil: isn't <module> Douglas Crockford's thing?
  535. # [16:27] <TabAtkins> Yeah, it is.
  536. # [16:27] * gsnedders dislikes it when people know him, it makes him feel less anonymous
  537. # [16:28] <micheil> hsivonen: no idea, I just saw it in a site which was using the html5 doctype and no other xmlns
  538. # [16:29] <jgraham> squeaky people!
  539. # [16:29] * gsnedders looks oddly across the room at jgraham
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  541. # [16:30] <jgraham> No you didn'r
  542. # [16:30] <jgraham> t
  543. # [16:30] <gsnedders> I did. Just when you weren't looking.
  544. # [16:31] <jgraham> Oh
  545. # [16:31] <gsnedders> You're not observant enough.
  546. # [16:31] <jgraham> Well you are not observing the squeaking
  547. # [16:31] * gsnedders wonders if he could creep up on jgraham and surprising
  548. # [16:31] <gsnedders> I'm sorry, but Alice in Chains is better than squeaking
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  550. # [16:32] <jgraham> The squeaking is not good. Although Alice in Chains is dubious
  551. # [16:32] * gsnedders realizes what jgraham means by people squeaking
  552. # [16:32] <jgraham> as an alternative
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  554. # [16:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: When did we ever agree on music?
  555. # [16:32] <jgraham> Sometimes
  556. # [16:33] <gsnedders> Rarely.
  557. # [16:36] <jgraham> Sigur Rós?
  558. # [16:36] * Joins: shepazu (~schepers@208-1-62-50.celito.net)
  559. # [16:36] <gsnedders> For example
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  561. # [16:39] <Dashiva> I hope someone does a translation of this: http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/
  562. # [16:41] <hsivonen> interesting that Steve blogs on the PR wire
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  564. # [16:43] <Dashiva> First he claims you don't need flash because most video is h264 anyway, and then he says flash video takes too much resources because most of it isn't h264 and is handled in software
  565. # [16:45] <gsnedders> Wow those people are squeaky.
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  567. # [16:45] <jgraham> No these ones are just noisy
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  570. # [16:46] <gsnedders> I was assuming it was the same people, and I was a bit surprised at the leak of squeakiness
  571. # [16:46] <gsnedders> *lack
  572. # [16:46] <gsnedders> It was just loud
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  574. # [16:47] <Philip`> Dashiva: He says most video is in Flash but is also in H.264
  575. # [16:47] <Philip`> (i.e. non-Flash H.264)
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  577. # [16:47] * boogyman_ is now known as boogyman
  578. # [16:47] <Dashiva> If it's available in h264, it can be hardware accelerated in flash
  579. # [16:47] <Philip`> But it's not available in H.264 in Flash
  580. # [16:48] <Dashiva> And this happens where? Why would anyone have a high quality format and not serve it to as many as possible?
  581. # [16:48] <Philip`> If web developers were given the choice between sticking with an old codec in Flash which works perfectly fine for them, or expending a lot of effort converting everything to H.264 (to make available via Flash or <video> or whatever), they'd probably choose the former because it's much easier and doesn't hurt them much
  582. # [16:49] <TabAtkins> Flash actually does hurt me. It's annoying and fiddly to use.
  583. # [16:49] <Philip`> so Apple doesn't like giving them the choice
  584. # [16:49] <Dashiva> He can't have it both ways, though
  585. # [16:50] <Dashiva> Either most content is not h264, and then apple doesn't let you use the full web. Or it is h264, in which case the performance argument is false.
  586. # [16:51] <Philip`> He doesn't say Apple does let you use the full web
  587. # [16:51] <Philip`> "iPhone, iPod and iPad users aren’t missing much video" doesn't say "... aren't missing anything"
  588. # [16:51] <hsivonen> I'd be happier about Apple's stance if their chosen video format weren't royalty-encumbered
  589. # [16:51] <Dashiva> "What they don’t say is that almost all this video is also available in a more modern format, H.264"
  590. # [16:51] <Dashiva> almost all
  591. # [16:52] <Philip`> Most of it's only also available in H.264 because Apple removed the choice and forced developers to start supplying it
  592. # [16:53] <Dashiva> Well, is it available or is it not available?
  593. # [16:54] <Philip`> It is now, but if Apple did/does support Flash then it perhaps wouldn't be
  594. # [16:54] <Dashiva> But the actual reality is one or the other
  595. # [16:54] <Dashiva> It's not a superposition of "what if apple didn't push for h264" and "reality as it is now"
  596. # [16:56] <Dashiva> There's also this gem: "When websites re-encode their videos using H.264, they can offer them without using Flash at all."
  597. # [16:56] <Dashiva> I guess Firefox isn't a browser
  598. # [16:57] <workmad3> Dashiva: obviously not, according to apple :)
  599. # [16:57] <Dashiva> Oh wait
  600. # [16:57] <Dashiva> He already did that slide where Safari ate up the market share of every browser except IE
  601. # [16:57] * Philip` mostly dislikes how apparently Apple are the only people in the world who can provide platform innovations, and third-party platforms built on top of it are just restrictive and nobody would ever want to write applications that work on other platforms
  602. # [16:58] <Philip`> It's trying to force a monoculture, which doesn't sound good
  603. # [16:59] <workmad3> Philip`: what, you're disagreeing with the Apple Is God world-view? :)
  604. # [16:59] <Dashiva> Hum, w3c going for mercurial
  605. # [17:00] <jgraham> Dashiva: Why hum?
  606. # [17:00] <Rik`> Dashiva: Firefox is a browser for Apple support, they recommend it to subscribe to WWDC :)
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  609. # [17:01] <Philip`> workmad3: Sure - it's trendy to disagree with Apple nowadays
  610. # [17:01] <workmad3> Philip`: that's good... I've been disagreeing with them for years :)
  611. # [17:01] <jgraham> Philip`: Would you describe yourself as "trendy"?
  612. # [17:01] <workmad3> to me, all this new grumbling is people hopping on the anti-apple bandwagon after the fact :P
  613. # [17:02] <Philip`> jgraham: Hmm... No
  614. # [17:02] <Dashiva> jgraham: Not sure what it's intended for. w3c likes to keep close eyes on their specs.
  615. # [17:03] <jgraham> Dashiva: We are getting it for testsuites at least
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  617. # [17:03] <jgraham> Dunno what is happening with the specs but I assume that they can't use torture^WCVS forever
  618. # [17:04] <gsnedders> Rik`, that reminds me… June 7–11th! Noooo!
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  634. # [17:43] <remysharp> Philip`: sorry to bother you - you helped me with a postMessage and workers question -
  635. # [17:44] <remysharp> but the spec examples on the whatwg site implies that *only* strings will be received by the worker: http://dev.w3.org/html5/workers/#a-worker-for-updating-a-client-side-database
  636. # [17:44] <Rik`> gsnedders: hum ?
  637. # [17:44] <gsnedders> Rik`: WWDC
  638. # [17:44] <gsnedders> Rik`: Of course, the nooo will make no sense to you :)
  639. # [17:44] <Rik`> exactly
  640. # [17:44] <remysharp> there's several examples on in the Worker spec that split the event.data to read what it wants to do with it
  641. # [17:45] <gsnedders> Rik`: It stops me from running off with Apple people when we were going to
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  643. # [17:45] <gsnedders> There'ss sense to this insanity.
  644. # [17:47] <jgraham> gsnedders: No eloping please
  645. # [17:48] <gsnedders> jgraham: Can I elope instead with a Scottish girl?
  646. # [17:49] <TabAtkins> gsnedders: Sounds good to me. Find yourself a buxom redhead or raven-haired girl.
  647. # [17:49] <jgraham> Raven hair and skin so fair, sadness never visits there
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  649. # [17:51] * gsnedders expects he can find several girls meeting one of those alternations in his Facebook friends…
  650. # [17:52] <Philip`> remysharp: I'd guess that's because the example was written back when postMessage only supported strings, and/or is kept because it's a useful demonstration of how to work with legacy implementations that only support strings
  651. # [17:52] <hober> hmm. getting an error page on every wiki page I try to go to
  652. # [17:52] * jgraham isn;t sure whether to parse it as (buxom & redhead) | raven haired or buxom & (redhead | raven haired)
  653. # [17:52] <hober> Database error: A database query syntax error has occurred. This may indicate a bug in the software. The last attempted database query was: (SQL query hidden) from within function "User::saveOptions". Database returned error "1062: Duplicate entry '121-rememberpassword' for key 1 (database.wiki.whatwg.org)".
  654. # [17:52] <TabAtkins> The last, jgraham.
  655. # [17:53] <jgraham> TabAtkins: I think that makes it sizist, or something
  656. # [17:53] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Oh, I parsed it differently.
  657. # [17:53] <TabAtkins> The fact that redhead and raven-haired modify the same attribute should be evidence that they form a localized disjuction.
  658. # [17:54] <jgraham> But maybe if you didn;t really like red hair you would suggest some way of making up for it?
  659. # [17:54] <TabAtkins> I wouldn't have listed red hair if I didn't like it. See: the lack of blonde in my list.
  660. # [17:54] <jgraham> I just assumed that was because there are not blone girls in Scotland
  661. # [17:54] <jgraham> *blonde
  662. # [17:55] <gsnedders> jgraham: There are, just fewer than here.
  663. # [17:55] * Philip` imagines a raven-haired girl is like Medusa but featherier
  664. # [17:55] <TabAtkins> Something like that, yes.
  665. # [17:57] <gsnedders> As far as I know, there's never been any conclusion about weather I'm the fairest person in the office
  666. # [17:58] <gsnedders> But I'm not raven-haired, so I guess sadness visits here. Sad.
  667. # [18:03] * Quits: shepazu (~schepers@208-1-62-50.celito.net) (Quit: shepazu)
  668. # [18:05] <AryehGregor> Argh, wiki errors?
  669. # [18:06] * Joins: mlpug (~mlpug@a88-115-164-40.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  670. # [18:07] <jgraham> gsnedders: There aren't that many here
  671. # [18:08] <AryehGregor> . . . do I not have an account on the wiki? Seems not.
  672. # [18:08] <AryehGregor> hober, does it work if you log out?
  673. # [18:08] <gsnedders> jgraham: Well, true, we're in the office of an IT company. There aren't many women here in general.
  674. # [18:09] <jgraham> gsnedders: That not what I menat, as well you know
  675. # [18:10] <gsnedders> :)
  676. # [18:11] <AryehGregor> Is anyone else getting errors on the wiki?
  677. # [18:13] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@unaffiliated/danbri)
  678. # [18:13] <AryehGregor> hober, the error should give more details now. Can you provide them?
  679. # [18:16] <AryehGregor> Or not. Now it should be logging details.
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  683. # [18:25] <AryehGregor> Hixie, you don't seem to have APC or anything similar set up as a PHP opcode cache. Any particular reason for this? It would help performance a lot for large PHP apps (e.g., MediaWiki).
  684. # [18:25] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: Because Hixie's a Perl fanboi
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  687. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> Then he should clearly have used a wiki engine written in Perl.
  688. # [18:27] <AryehGregor> I have no idea why PHP doesn't support something like Python's .pyc out of the box, so that special opcode caches aren't necessary.
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  690. # [18:28] <AryehGregor> Actually, I do know, it's because PHP is developed by monkeys pounding on typewriters.
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  694. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> What happens if you point an <img> at something without intrinsic dimensions, such as an SVG image that has only an aspect ratio, but don't give the <img> a width or height?
  695. # [18:38] * Quits: hasather (~david@pat-tdc.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  696. # [18:38] <TabAtkins> That is to say, what's the default size of an <img> when it can't get any appropriate information from the linked image?
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  699. # [18:41] <hober> AryehGregor: unfortunately, I'm at a different machine now. the wiki works fine from here.
  700. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> Weird.
  701. # [18:41] <AryehGregor> Tell me if you have any problems again.
  702. # [18:43] <hober> will do
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  722. # [19:37] <zcorpan> jgraham: am now
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  738. # [20:19] <jgraham> zcorpan: That's less useful :)
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  740. # [20:19] <jgraham> (hallvors was looking for you)
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  744. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> "One of the assumptions most software organizations appear to take for granted is the need for beta releases. In fact, some companies have even taken this assumption well beyond its commonly understood meaning." ("assumption" linking to a post about Gmail)
  745. # [20:27] <AryehGregor> Zing.
  746. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> Actually, the post it links to is someone who claims some of their e-mail vanished, so they stopped using Gmail. That seems like an underhanded thing to link to. Well, whatever.
  747. # [20:29] <AryehGregor> (The quote is from the latest IEBlog)
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  750. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> Yeah, I guess that post is a steaming pile of PR.
  751. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> Oh wlel.
  752. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> Oh well.
  753. # [20:37] <AryehGregor> *Some* of the IEBlog posts aren't horrible, I'll give them that.
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  756. # [20:40] <othermaciej> AryehGregor: I was really surprised by the snark level of that post
  757. # [20:40] <othermaciej> it detracts from the message they presumably want to send, which is about the awesome opportunity you have to give them feedback
  758. # [20:40] <AryehGregor> Yeah, it ended up being really misleading.
  759. # [20:41] <AryehGregor> I don't necessarily blame them for using Connect and defending it, since there's probably a lot of internal pressure to not ditch MS stuff in favor of open-source projects like Bugzilla.
  760. # [20:42] <AryehGregor> But they didn't have to act as though their bug tracker was somehow comparable to Mozilla's or WebKit's, and that they were awesome for closing everything quickly.
  761. # [20:42] * aroben is now known as aroben|lunch
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  793. # [22:28] <Hixie> Philip`: use complete.html to get xrefs :-)
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  795. # [22:28] <Hixie> AryehGregor: i have no idea what APC is
  796. # [22:29] <Hixie> AryehGregor: happy to set stuff up though
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  808. # [22:39] <volkmar> Hixie: i've some questions about the enumerated attributes
  809. # [22:40] <volkmar> Hixie: it looks like most enumerated attributes are not "limited to only known values"
  810. # [22:40] <volkmar> which sounds weird because it sounds quite important
  811. # [22:40] <volkmar> and even input.type isn't... and that is a regression
  812. # [22:41] <volkmar> i'm wondering why some enumerated attributes can be not "limited to only known values"
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  828. # [23:12] <Hixie> volkmar: hmm
  829. # [23:12] <jgraham> The thing about the IEBlog is that it just makes them look childish. I'm really surprised that they are dumb enough to play to the front rows like that
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  833. # [23:16] <Hixie> volkmar: yeah, looks like a bug, especially for input.type; can you file a bug?
  834. # [23:16] <Hixie> Philip`: which bugs was it that they ignored for IE8?
  835. # [23:17] <jgraham> Hixie: Is there some particular reason that you can't drawImage and <input type="image">?
  836. # [23:18] <jgraham> s/and/an/
  837. # [23:18] <jgraham> (I don't have a usecase or any particular desire for it to work but if there is a special reason it would be useful to know)
  838. # [23:19] <Hixie> "I don't have a usecase or any particular desire for it to work" is the reason
  839. # [23:21] <jgraham> Apparently it probably does work in Opera at the moment (I haven't actually tested) and "I don't have a usecase or any particular desire for it to work" isn't a strong argument for breaking it
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  842. # [23:22] <volkmar> Hixie: there were a reason why some enumerated attributes could be reflected like regular strings ?
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  844. # [23:25] <cardona507> hi - I am wondering what audio formats firefox, chrome, and safari support for <audio> - thanks
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  848. # [23:30] <sicking> cardona507: i believe we support vorbis and wave
  849. # [23:30] <cardona507> thanks jonas
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  853. # [23:34] <cardona507> I am pretty sure that webkit is mp3 and wav
  854. # [23:35] <cardona507> wav isn't the greates - is vorbis better?
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  856. # [23:35] <cardona507> *greatest
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  860. # [23:37] <volkmar> cardona507: afaik, wav is lossless and vorbis is lossy so they are not really similar
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  862. # [23:37] <cardona507> gotcha
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  873. # Session Close: Fri Apr 30 00:00:00 2010

The end :)