/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-08-13 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 13 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  11. # [00:14] <annevk5> AryehGregor, oh nice
  12. # [00:14] <AryehGregor> Which part, that someone is actually attempting to write tests?
  13. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> Or some other part?
  14. # [00:15] <annevk5> AryehGregor, are you meanwhile trying to find out if we can make all enumerated attributes limited to known values?
  15. # [00:15] <annevk5> AryehGregor, spec/browser QA of course :)
  16. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> annevk5, that depends on website compat, doesn't it?
  17. # [00:15] <AryehGregor> I don't see that I'd be able to help with that testing.
  18. # [00:16] <Workshiva> Enumerated attributes are such a mess
  19. # [00:16] <AryehGregor> The whatwg thread seems to have died.
  20. # [00:16] <Workshiva> I haven't been reading whatwg mail, I wonder if Hixie replied to mine yet
  21. # [00:17] <annevk5> AryehGregor, it depends mostly on what browsers implement now
  22. # [00:17] <annevk5> AryehGregor, and what ms2ger can get patched in Gecko :)
  23. # [00:18] <Hixie> i haven't replied to anything sent in the last month or so
  24. # [00:18] <Hixie> and am way behind on specific topics like appcache
  25. # [00:18] <Hixie> and anything involving new features
  26. # [00:18] <Hixie> you can try searching for the subject line of your e-mail on http://whatwg.org/issues/
  27. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> annevk5, browsers mostly implement per spec now, with some deviations. Like WebKit implements preload as limited to only known values.
  28. # [00:19] <Hixie> apologies for that not being the most easy-to-search tool
  29. # [00:19] <AryehGregor> Actually, that seems like the only issue, outside maybe of IE (which I can't easily look at since IE8 doesn't run the tests right and IE9 is down the hall, so I can't be bothered to check it too often).
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  31. # [00:21] <Workshiva> Hixie: It's easier to search than the email archives :P
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  33. # [00:21] <AryehGregor> Workshiva, the e-mail archive search is called "Google".
  34. # [00:22] <Hixie> Workshiva: possibly
  35. # [00:22] <annevk5> AryehGregor, sounds like we should make preload limited to known values in the spec too
  36. # [00:22] <annevk5> AryehGregor, I guess the rest can be done by encouraging browsers to experiment
  37. # [00:24] <annevk5> Hixie, will you get to my email on XHR/HTML5 by somewhere next week?
  38. # [00:24] <annevk5> Hixie, there's not really lots of hurry anymore
  39. # [00:24] <Hixie> if there's no hurry, then maybe
  40. # [00:24] <Hixie> if there's hurry i can prioritise it
  41. # [00:24] <annevk5> maybe is fine at this point, ta
  42. # [00:25] <Hixie> k
  43. # [00:25] <annevk5> if the W3C test server was working it would've been nice, but now I'll just wait and work on something else
  44. # [00:26] <jgraham> The test server is not working?
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  46. # [00:26] <annevk5> yeah, webapps repository is not properly reflected on test.w3.org
  47. # [00:27] <Workshiva> So what is the benefit of having an enumerated attribute not limited to known values?
  48. # [00:27] <annevk5> compat potentially
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  51. # [00:29] <Workshiva> And the main compat surface would be reading an invalid state
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  53. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> I doubt it will cause many compat issues.
  54. # [00:31] <AryehGregor> Only one or two of the properties are likely to see nontrivial use at all, IIRC.
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  57. # [00:32] * Hixie points AryehGregor to the /topic
  58. # [00:32] <AryehGregor> Heh.
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  61. # [00:39] <annevk5> just file some bugs to get people to experiment
  62. # [00:39] <annevk5> the guy from Mozilla who's implementing WF2 is interested in it as well
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  64. # [00:39] <annevk5> if Gecko or WebKit can ship it without running into issues it's prolly fine
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  75. # [01:21] <annevk5> o_O lol at hybi
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  77. # [01:27] <Hixie> o_O indeed
  78. # [01:27] <Hixie> they even want to remove the paragraph that says to send feedback to the hybi list!
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  81. # [01:30] <Hixie> someone just sent me a mail saying that they weren't receiving mail from the mailing list
  82. # [01:30] <Hixie> they didn't say which mailing list...
  83. # [01:31] <annevk5> oops
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  85. # [01:32] <annevk5> also, clearly it's too late, explaining people that whatwg.org is not nytimes.com is really not all that interesting
  86. # [01:33] * TabAtkins is quite lost.
  87. # [01:33] <Hixie> nn! :-)
  88. # [01:33] <Hixie> TabAtkins: go left
  89. # [01:33] * TabAtkins goes left, and walks off the Cliff of Comprehension.
  90. # [01:35] <annevk5> yeah, nn :) gonna spec the scroll event tomorrow
  91. # [01:35] <annevk5> hopefully I remember what I just figured out
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  93. # [01:45] <erlehmann> i smiled a litte when I read annevk's statement about not being the NY times site :)
  94. # [01:46] * drunknbass is now known as drunknbass|away
  95. # [01:46] <TabAtkins> Definitely. ^_^
  96. # [01:46] <TabAtkins> If you're reading the spec using IE6, You're Doing It Wrong(tm).
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  102. # [02:00] <Hixie> sweet kittens
  103. # [02:00] <Hixie> i got the main bucket down to only mail that's about a month old, about 300 mails
  104. # [02:00] <Hixie> and there's about 300 mails in the buckets that are new features delayed for various reasons
  105. # [02:00] <Hixie> but the pile is at 900 mails
  106. # [02:00] <Hixie> and i was like, where are all the other 300 mails?
  107. # [02:00] <Hixie> turns out they're ALL ABOUT VIDEO
  108. # [02:01] <TabAtkins> Work's cut out for you, then.
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  110. # [02:02] <cheeser> video on the web will never take off anyway. just a fad, i'm afraid.
  111. # [02:03] <Philip`> I wonder if you could make a web site which is entirely rendered through <video>
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  113. # [02:04] <Philip`> with live streaming of the page generated on the server
  114. # [02:04] <cheeser> javascript+canvas?
  115. # [02:04] <Philip`> using Web Sockets to transmit user input to the server
  116. # [02:04] <TabAtkins> server-side canvas, transcoded to video and piped to the browser
  117. # [02:04] <Philip`> cheeser: Nah, that's not thin client and is therefore uncool
  118. # [02:04] <Philip`> Got to do all the rendering in the cloud
  119. # [02:04] <cheeser> heh
  120. # [02:05] <cheeser> was actually thinking of writing a websocket based irc client.
  121. # [02:05] <cheeser> because i'm dumb that way.
  122. # [02:07] <abarth> cheeser: you should write an irc-based websocket client
  123. # [02:07] <cheeser> heh
  124. # [02:10] <Philip`> That'd be good when you want to write an efficient user-friendly web-based frontend to the IRC-based control system of a botnet
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  126. # [02:11] <cheeser> and the world definitely needs better botnet tools.
  127. # [02:21] <gsnedders> abarth: Man, are you trying to get sites hacked now? :P
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  139. # [02:48] <abarth> gsnedders: ?
  140. # [02:48] <abarth> ah
  141. # [02:48] <abarth> i see :)
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  144. # [02:57] <mcarter> greetings
  145. # [02:59] <TabAtkins> yo
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  148. # [03:00] <mcarter> Why did we add the sec-websocket-protocol header anyway?
  149. # [03:00] <TabAtkins> Hixie: ^^^
  150. # [03:00] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  151. # [03:00] <Hixie> as opposed to what?
  152. # [03:00] <Hixie> as opposed to WebSocket-Protocol? (i.e. why the sec-?)
  153. # [03:00] <Hixie> or the entire protocol negotiation thing at all?
  154. # [03:01] <mcarter> sorry, I mean the protocol negotiation -- what is the use case?
  155. # [03:02] <Hixie> it's for when we are in a situaton where there's a dozen different IM protocols, and there are IM clients that can support many
  156. # [03:02] <Hixie> and the user just gives a hostname
  157. # [03:02] <Hixie> (and port and so on)
  158. # [03:02] <Hixie> the client can just say "i speak all these subprotocols"
  159. # [03:03] <mcarter> I see. Why not just handle that in application space?
  160. # [03:03] <Hixie> the protocols would all have to do it in the same way to do it in the app space
  161. # [03:03] <Hixie> so for example, if you invent a new protocol that just starts off with expecting the client says FOO, you can't detect that
  162. # [03:03] <Hixie> except by just trying to connect with many differnet protocols, etc
  163. # [03:04] <Hixie> which becomes hellish
  164. # [03:04] <mcarter> The way people use network protocols now is with apriori knowledge
  165. # [03:04] <mcarter> "I know there's an http server on example.org port 3232, so connect and download a web page."
  166. # [03:05] <Hixie> at the TCP level, yeah
  167. # [03:05] <mcarter> I mean, when I type "http://example.org:3232" into my web browser, we don't depend on any tcp-level protocol negotiation
  168. # [03:05] <Hixie> indeed
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  170. # [03:05] <Hixie> it's one of the reasons we've had so many problems with websockets
  171. # [03:05] <Hixie> and why we're using HTTP's Upgrade mechanism
  172. # [03:07] <mcarter> fair enough
  173. # [03:09] <mcarter> I'm not particularly against it; I just have this feeling like its opened the flood gates to people wanting some giant meta protocol for negotiating everything with some super-complicated framing/handshake scheme
  174. # [03:09] <mcarter> I mean, my default response to things like multiplexing is "do it in the app level."
  175. # [03:12] <Hixie> *shrug*
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  180. # [03:42] <mcarter> What is our current stance on reverse proxy traversal -- "rewrite the proxy" ?
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  192. # [04:48] <Hixie> mcarter: depends on the reverse proxy
  193. # [04:48] <Hixie> mcarter: from the spec's point of view, reverse proxies are part of the server
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  234. # [08:13] <annevk5> Hixie, shouldn't NPN also obsolete usage of the other handshake in part?
  235. # [08:14] * annevk5 thought that was part of the appeal
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  255. # [08:54] <Hixie> annevk5: that seems like it would make transitioning to TLS a pain
  256. # [08:54] <Hixie> annevk5: the current system, you just stick it on the front.
  257. # [08:56] <annevk5> i guess it depends on how you see it
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  259. # [08:57] <annevk5> but if you do it like this you are not getting rid of the additional roundtrip?
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  263. # [09:04] <Hixie> annevk5: yes, that is a sad problem with TLS
  264. # [09:05] <annevk5> I thought the whole idea of using NPN was to prevent that
  265. # [09:05] <annevk5> otherwise there's presumably not much point in doing it
  266. # [09:05] <Hixie> (though I'm not 100% sure... NPN seems to require a three-way handshake anyway, so maybe the WebSocket handshake only adds a single additional round-trip?)
  267. # [09:05] <Hixie> well it makes it impossible to have a cross-protocol attack
  268. # [09:06] * annevk5 wonders if abarth is around
  269. # [09:06] <Hixie> which is a significant aid
  270. # [09:06] <Hixie> you still need the WebSocket handshake for lots of other things
  271. # [09:06] <Hixie> like opting into extensions, the origin model, etc
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  273. # [09:10] * hdhoang is now known as bkphenny
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  275. # [09:11] <othermaciej> I wonder if the TLS/NPN handshake can carry whatever information would be in the HTTP-based WebSocket handshake
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  279. # [09:12] <annevk5> it sounded like that was the idea
  280. # [09:13] <annevk5> Ian Fette keeps making more complicated frame proposals :/
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  282. # [09:21] <othermaciej> I am not sure why he thinks random reserved bits in the header are helpful
  283. # [09:26] <jgraham> Hmm, I see I am getting all the mail from yesterday
  284. # [09:26] <Hixie> abarth: actually, ping here instead
  285. # [09:27] <jgraham> The first screenful is about 70% [hybi] and 30% [whatwg]
  286. # [09:30] <Hixie> abarth: when you have a moment, i would like to make http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10213 your proposal rather than mine :-)
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  307. # [10:16] <annevk5> hmm, scroll* is slightly more complicated it seems
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  313. # [10:29] <annevk5> hmm, maybe not
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  316. # [10:31] <abarth> Hixie: sorry, i've had a bit too much to drink tonight
  317. # [10:31] <abarth> Hixie: i'd be happy to look at it tomorrow
  318. # [10:32] <abarth> Hixie: that bug looks like URL parsing, which i'm happy to have be my problem
  319. # [10:32] * Joins: Smylers (~Smylers@leeds01-fw.internal.pipex.net)
  320. # [10:33] <Hixie> abarth: cool
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  329. # [10:51] <gsnedders> abarth: Well, getting people to write IRC clients for Web sockets, I bet you some sites are going to fail to do proper auth…
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  353. # [12:07] <annevk5> hmm, scrollIntoView seems rather complex
  354. # [12:08] <adactio> A blog post on the BBC about the "split" between W3C and WHAT WG http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2010/08/html5_open_standards_and_the_b.html The quoted source... Shelley. :-/
  355. # [12:08] * Joins: ZombieLoffe (~e@unaffiliated/zombieloffe)
  356. # [12:08] <adactio> I hope my license fee didn't pay for that drivel.
  357. # [12:09] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@2620:0:1b00:1191:4d6:47cb:b5a7:25f0)
  358. # [12:10] <annevk5> and lastweekinhtml5 lol
  359. # [12:11] <othermaciej> is trollweek still going?
  360. # [12:11] <jgraham> Jesus
  361. # [12:11] <annevk5> dunno, but that bbc blog post links to something on it
  362. # [12:11] <annevk5> "Erik Huggers is Director of BBC Future Media & Technology" haha
  363. # [12:11] <jgraham> I wonder if I should register just to post a comment
  364. # [12:11] <annevk5> glad we have sane people in NL running gov-sponsored media
  365. # [12:11] <annevk5> well, somewhat saner
  366. # [12:12] <jgraham> The BBC is generally quite awesome and it is sad when they fuck up
  367. # [12:12] <othermaciej> I'm glad the small bit of gov-sponsored media in the US is irrelevant
  368. # [12:12] <annevk5> they make a lot of good shows
  369. # [12:12] <othermaciej> so that when I see poor journalism I can simply refrain from giving my money to the responsible organization
  370. # [12:14] <othermaciej> I love that the trollweek link is hyperlinked to the text "Professional integrity"
  371. # [12:14] <jgraham> That was quite mystifying
  372. # [12:14] <annevk5> yeah, this is quite a joke
  373. # [12:15] <othermaciej> apparently, professional integrity calls for a great deal of anatomical photography
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  376. # [12:17] <jgraham> Maybe this guy *is* MLW ;)
  377. # [12:21] <annevk5> hmm
  378. # [12:21] <annevk5> Safari does not support scrollIntoView?
  379. # [12:21] <annevk5> Opera in a vastly different way from Mozilla
  380. # [12:21] <annevk5> and only Gecko dispatches a scroll event
  381. # [12:21] <annevk5> interop win
  382. # [12:21] <annevk5> no wonder hixie asks me to take over
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  384. # [12:22] <annevk5> but chrome does it like Firefox
  385. # [12:22] <annevk5> hmm
  386. # [12:22] <annevk5> maybe WebKit recently fixed something
  387. # [12:24] * mpt_ is now known as mpt
  388. # [12:25] <Lachy> haha. I find it ironic that the link to MLW says "Professional integrity", which is something that MLW doesn't have.
  389. # [12:26] <othermaciej> we certainly have a scrollIntoView method
  390. # [12:26] <annevk5> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/saved/589 was my basic test
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  393. # [12:26] <annevk5> it "tests" whether scrolling happens and whether an event is dispatched on Document
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  396. # [12:32] <annevk5> clearly registering rel values is nigh-on impossible
  397. # [12:33] <annevk5> this is exactly the problem with the IANA registries, they don't reflect actual practice making it harder to make informed decisions
  398. # [12:43] <Lachy> what is the process for registering links relationships in the IANA registry?
  399. # [12:43] * Joins: gratz|home (~gratz@gratz.gotadsl.co.uk)
  400. # [12:45] <jgraham> Take one newborn goat and one full moon
  401. # [12:45] <jgraham> Arm yourself with a dagger made from unicorn horn
  402. # [12:46] <jgraham> Sacrifice the goat in a pool of virgin tears under the light of the full moon
  403. # [12:46] <jgraham> There will then be a committe decision on whether to accept your relation or not
  404. # [12:47] <gratz|home> wow
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  408. # [12:58] <Ms2ger> Latest BBC news: WHATWG intends to sacrifice goats
  409. # [13:04] <Philip`> I doubt it'll be as popular as that news story about the man marrying his goat
  410. # [13:04] <Philip`> Unless, of course, that's the goat we sacrifice
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  412. # [13:24] <Lachy> "[Link relationship] Registration requests should be sent to the [TBD]@ietf.org mailing list" -- http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-10#section-6.2.1
  413. # [13:25] <Lachy> so it's currently not possible to send in a registration request
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  416. # [13:35] <annevk5> so for scrollIntoView() Chrome/Firefox also scroll the outer frame but Opera does not
  417. # [13:36] <annevk5> can anyone check the link I pasted before in IE9?
  418. # [13:41] <Peter`> IE9 does the same as Gecko/WebKit
  419. # [13:41] <Peter`> which indeed is different from Opera
  420. # [13:42] <annevk5> ta
  421. # [13:45] <annevk5> I wonder if an event is dispatched in each document that performs scrolling behavior
  422. # [13:45] <annevk5> and presumably for RTL content rules might be slightly different, hmm
  423. # [13:47] <roc> it would be in Firefox
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  425. # [13:47] <roc> we also dispatch non-bubbling "scroll" events to overflow:auto/scroll elements that are scrolled by scrollIntoView
  426. # [13:48] <annevk5> that makes sense
  427. # [13:48] <annevk5> is multi-document not an issue for cross-origin?
  428. # [13:49] <annevk5> even just the scrolling somehow triggered by a subframe seems suboptimal
  429. # [13:51] <roc> it hasn't come up
  430. # [13:51] <roc> maybe some enterprising miscreant could figure something out
  431. # [13:52] <annevk5> it should probably at least not work for <iframe> with sandbox set
  432. # [13:53] <annevk5> I guess I should probably define something like "scroll element to x,y" and "scroll document to x,y" which do the relevant "alignment" and event dispatching
  433. # [13:54] <annevk5> or would some other model make more sense?
  434. # [13:58] <roc> no, that's more or less how it's implemented
  435. # [13:59] <roc> annevk5: about the offset* properties ... honestly, I don't want to touch those with a ten-foot pole
  436. # [13:59] <annevk5> dhyatt said something similar about the HTML parser in WebKit
  437. # [14:00] <annevk5> but they should match Gecko more or less now
  438. # [14:00] <roc> it would be great if we could converge on something interoperable, but with ten years of non-interoperable behavior, and Web pages sniffing, it's just too fragile
  439. # [14:00] <annevk5> apart from something related to the root element I think, where they match WebKit/Opera
  440. # [14:00] <roc> annevk5: people don't emit different HTML based on UA sniffing
  441. # [14:01] <roc> at least, not very often
  442. # [14:01] <roc> plus, we've interoperated pretty well on common cases
  443. # [14:01] <roc> which is why people don't have to UA-sniff
  444. # [14:01] <roc> the situation with offset is ... less good
  445. # [14:01] <annevk5> yeah :/
  446. # [14:02] <annevk5> but I don't want people to have UA sniff forever and make it hard for new UAs either
  447. # [14:03] <roc> if we were able to converge offset behavior, then authors could remove sniffing and rewrite their offset code paths to use a single code path
  448. # [14:03] <roc> OR they could just rewrite those code paths to use getClientRects/getBoundingClientRect, right now
  449. # [14:04] <roc> I'm not convinced it's worth investing in the former option
  450. # [14:04] <annevk5> well, not every UA is sniffed for
  451. # [14:05] <annevk5> and although we try to convince authors to do the right thing... it's usually a somewhat hopeless cause
  452. # [14:08] <roc> whatever you specced, if it was implemented by all browsers, would lead to a lot of sites being broken for a lot of users
  453. # [14:08] <roc> and I'm not sure who would be helped
  454. # [14:09] <annevk5> so what does a new UA do?
  455. # [14:09] <annevk5> I guess it gets an even longer UA string
  456. # [14:09] <roc> new UAs would have to deal with a) new sites, which are using getClientRects anyway, so no issue and b) old sites, which haven't updated their code anyway so whatever you specced is irrelevant
  457. # [14:11] <annevk5> I think the situation is somewhat less hopeless than you paint it
  458. # [14:11] <annevk5> as Firefox / WebKit do the same for most tests (apart that root element test)
  459. # [14:11] <annevk5> and Opera has two issues because of not following Firefox / WebKit
  460. # [14:12] <annevk5> and new-IE follows Firefox mostly
  461. # [14:14] <roc> IE changed their behavior?
  462. # [14:14] <roc> hmm
  463. # [14:14] <annevk5> (this does not take into account the <table> issue though)
  464. # [14:14] <annevk5> they did several times afaik
  465. # [14:15] <roc> ok
  466. # [14:15] <annevk5> time to get expenses done before accounting leaves
  467. # [14:16] <annevk5> guess scrollintoview will have to wait
  468. # [14:17] <roc> thanks for all this
  469. # [14:18] * Joins: darkangel (~darkangel@196-210-204-204.dynamic.isadsl.co.za)
  470. # [14:19] <darkangel> Hi, has there been any discussion recently regarding tri-state checkboxes?
  471. # [14:21] * Joins: hamcore (~rhythm@unaffiliated/msmosso)
  472. # [14:22] <Philip`> darkangel: What kind of discussion?
  473. # [14:23] <Philip`> 'indeterminate' was added to the spec some time ago to support that
  474. # [14:23] <darkangel> Philip`: Discussion of its possible inclusion in HTML5.
  475. # [14:23] <darkangel> ^ Really? Is that an attribute?
  476. # [14:24] <Philip`> Use <input type=checkbox> then set input.indeterminate = true
  477. # [14:24] <darkangel> With JS?
  478. # [14:24] <Philip`> See http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/number-state.html#checkbox-state
  479. # [14:24] <Philip`> Yes
  480. # [14:25] <roc> 'indeterminate' is an IE-compat feature, it's not a great APPI
  481. # [14:26] <Philip`> Ah, it's older than I remembered
  482. # [14:26] <Philip`> http://lists.whatwg.org/htdig.cgi/commit-watchers-whatwg.org/2008/001807.html
  483. # [14:30] <darkangel> Philip`: It would be best to be able to use an attribute, something like: <input type="checkbox" tristate="true" />
  484. # [14:40] * Joins: KaOSoFt (~maxzagato@unaffiliated/kaosoft)
  485. # [14:52] <darkangel> I don't really get the point of indeterminate, it behaves exactly the same (I know, that is mentioned in the spec).
  486. # [14:53] <darkangel> Lachy: There?
  487. # [14:53] <Lachy> yes
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  491. # [14:54] <darkangel> Lachy: Hello. What was the result of your discussion about tri-state checkboxes back in 2007? (http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20070914)
  492. # [14:56] <Workshiva> darkangel: It doesn't look the same, and indeterminate can be used for validation
  493. # [14:56] <Lachy> the result was what's in the spec now, which occured after the discovery of the indeterminate property in IE
  494. # [14:57] <Workshiva> "If the element is required and its checkedness is false, then the element is suffering from being missing."
  495. # [14:57] <Workshiva> Poor element has to suffer because of the user's negligence
  496. # [14:58] <darkangel> Lachy: But that's visual only, only two states can be determined on the server, right?
  497. # [14:58] <Lachy> yes
  498. # [14:58] * Joins: jernoble (~jernoble@17.203.14.132)
  499. # [14:59] <darkangel> Lachy: Then it's rather pointless IMHO. What if I want an explicit yes/no/no selection?
  500. # [15:00] <Workshiva> You control what state the checkbox is in when it enters indeterminate state
  501. # [15:00] <Lachy> use radio buttons.
  502. # [15:00] <Lachy> or <select>
  503. # [15:00] <Workshiva> If you can't make a sensible default, can't use client side validation, there's <select> and radio buttons
  504. # [15:00] <darkangel> Lachy: ^ It forces a user to make a selection if the field is required.
  505. # [15:01] * Quits: reni_ (~reni@sedkit.inf.u-szeged.hu) (Quit: Leaving)
  506. # [15:01] <Workshiva> Or just two checkboxes :)
  507. # [15:01] * Joins: reni_ (~reni@sedkit.inf.u-szeged.hu)
  508. # [15:02] <darkangel> Imagine a tree of checkboxes for preferences or access control ... would it look nice (or be easy to view) if each item had three radio buttons?
  509. # [15:02] <Workshiva> If it's actually tristate, yes
  510. # [15:03] <darkangel> allow/deny/no rule
  511. # [15:03] <Lachy> when you have a tree like that, the indeterminate state of a parent checkbox is determined based on the selected state of its children
  512. # [15:03] <Workshiva> But you might as well use selects, that way it's crystal clear what state it is in
  513. # [15:05] <darkangel> Look here ... http://www.jstree.com/documentation/checkbox
  514. # [15:05] <darkangel> I was planning on using this script, not realising they had built-in support for tri-state ...
  515. # [15:06] <darkangel> But that just shows the need.
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  517. # [15:07] <Workshiva> Well, it seems like you'd want a custom widget there so you can control what the indeterminate state looks like
  518. # [15:07] <Workshiva> But for pure functionality, indeterminate should work fine
  519. # [15:08] <Workshiva> Just make checked=false when you set indeterminate=true
  520. # [15:11] <darkangel> Alternatively, you could just add a full-featured tree widget to HTML5. :D
  521. # [15:11] * Quits: gratz|home (~gratz@gratz.gotadsl.co.uk) (Remote host closed the connection)
  522. # [15:12] <Workshiva> It's not impossible, but it won't happen for a few years at least, while browsers implement what's already waiting
  523. # [15:13] <darkangel> right
  524. # [15:13] <darkangel> Workshiva: I would suggest the indeterminate state be no value submitted, checked=1, unchecked=2.
  525. # [15:14] <Workshiva> I don't know for sure, but I suspect there is content out there that depends on indeterminate submitting a value
  526. # [15:15] <darkangel> ^ unchecked=0 I mean.
  527. # [15:15] <darkangel> It differs from the current 2-state checkbox, however you would have to opt-in using an attribute.
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  529. # [15:16] <darkangel> Existing content or future content?
  530. # [15:16] <Workshiva> Existing
  531. # [15:16] <darkangel> Existing content would be unaffected.
  532. # [15:17] <darkangel> You would have to use: <input type="checkbox" tristate="true" />
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  535. # [15:19] <Workshiva> Then it makes more sense to make it a separate type
  536. # [15:19] <Workshiva> It doesn't seem very compatible at all
  537. # [15:20] <darkangel> You mean <input type="tristate-checkbox" />
  538. # [15:20] <darkangel> ?
  539. # [15:21] <Workshiva> Yeah, plus some bikeshedding on the exact type
  540. # [15:23] <darkangel> bikeshedding?
  541. # [15:24] <annevk5> we're planning on adding that tree widget at some point so maybe it isn't needed?
  542. # [15:24] <annevk5> look for <datagrid> in older drafts
  543. # [15:24] <annevk5> it will come back at some point
  544. # [15:25] <darkangel> annevk5: Will it be a combined tree/datagrid control?
  545. # [15:27] <jgraham> darkangel: http://hotpink.bikeshed.org/
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  548. # [15:29] * darkangel_ is now known as darkangel
  549. # [15:29] <darkangel> Sorry, I was disconnected.
  550. # [15:32] <Philip`> This HTML WG decision process doesn't seem to work terribly well at resolving conflicts
  551. # [15:32] <Philip`> If a decision is made one way, then the WHATWG spec ignores it and does the other thing
  552. # [15:33] <Philip`> If the decision goes the other way, then people start repeating all their arguments about the topic and object to the decision and to the decision process and to the decision makers and want to reopen or escalate the issue
  553. # [15:33] <Philip`> Why can't we all just get along?
  554. # [15:37] <annevk5> expenses done
  555. # [15:38] <annevk5> darkangel, iirc, something like that
  556. # [15:38] <darkangel> annevk5: cool.
  557. # [15:38] <Ms2ger> Philip`, because we disagree about the way specifications should be written on a rather fundamental level?
  558. # [15:38] <annevk5> darkangel, .e.g http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/WD-html5-20080610/interactive-elements.html#datagrid has an old draft
  559. # [15:39] <annevk5> darkangel, http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/WD-html5-20090423/interactive-elements.html#datagrid is the latest version that includes it
  560. # [15:39] <annevk5> darkangel, will prolly come back at some point
  561. # [15:39] <annevk5> darkangel, when most other controls are somewhat stable
  562. # [15:40] <darkangel> annevk5: I hope so.
  563. # [15:40] * Joins: smaug (~chatzilla@a91-154-40-172.elisa-laajakaista.fi)
  564. # [15:41] <annevk5> Philip`, sounds utopical
  565. # [15:42] <Workshiva> Philip`: We can't get along because we can't get along
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  567. # [15:45] <darkangel> Will an editor control be added in future? (designMode is rather painful)
  568. # [15:47] <annevk5> there's vague plans to make contenteditable work
  569. # [15:48] <annevk5> first by fixing dom range
  570. # [15:48] <annevk5> then by step-by-step fixing the interoperability holes
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  572. # [15:48] <annevk5> there's a couple of people working on something I believe, but nothing concrete just yet
  573. # [15:49] <jgraham> I assumed we couldn't get along because HTMLWG is the contiuation of a generations-long holy war, the origins of which have been lost in the mists of time
  574. # [15:49] <Workshiva> It's mostly just because people are wrong on the internet
  575. # [15:49] <jgraham> Of course it has become less serious now it takes the form of stiffly worded letters
  576. # [15:50] <jgraham> rather than bloody battles in the desert
  577. # [15:50] <jgraham> But still
  578. # [15:50] <darkangel> annevk5: Thank you.
  579. # [15:52] <darkangel> I'm surprised the default timezone for datetime is UTC, I would have thought it'd be more user-friendly to let the user enter times in their own timezone. (I realise the UA can make that possible, just think it should be the default).
  580. # [15:53] <annevk5> it is in UTC for servers, not users
  581. # [15:54] <annevk5> if you want local time for servers, use datatime-local
  582. # [15:54] * Joins: jeromegn (~jeromegn@modemcable082.85-58-74.mc.videotron.ca)
  583. # [15:54] <annevk5> datetime-local*
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  585. # [15:55] <jeromegn> Hey guys, I'm having a weird WebSocket issue right now. Works perfectly from everywhere else I tried it. But from this specific place I am it doesn't. For some reason, I can't connect to a remote websocket. But if I run it locally, I can connect just fine. What could cause that? ISP? Router? Firewall? I thought it was supposed to passthrough without any issue :)
  586. # [15:58] <darkangel> jeromegn: Wrong channel me-thinks.
  587. # [15:58] <jeromegn> hmm
  588. # [15:58] <gsnedders> right channel me-thinks
  589. # [15:58] * gsnedders thinks firewall issue
  590. # [15:58] <jeromegn> :)
  591. # [15:58] <jeromegn> hmm
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  594. # [15:59] <jeromegn> At first I thought it was that option on the router: "Block all outgoing connection requests"
  595. # [16:00] <jeromegn> but disabling it didn't help.
  596. # [16:00] <darkangel> annevk5: I kinda misread the spec, but it does only say "may" -- "User agents may display the date and time in whatever time zone is appropriate for the user." maybe that should be "should", or maybe all UAs will do it anyway. :)
  597. # [16:00] <annevk5> jeromegn, use some kind of network analyzer?
  598. # [16:00] <jeromegn> annevk5: I'll look that up
  599. # [16:00] <annevk5> darkangel, just use the UA with the behavior you prefer :)
  600. # [16:01] <annevk5> jeromegn, if you don't any, i've used wireshark with some success, but mostly for http traffic but it should do everything
  601. # [16:01] <annevk5> have any*
  602. # [16:01] <jeromegn> hehe, first result on google, I'm going to try it out
  603. # [16:01] <darkangel> annevk5: Will there be a visual indication of the TZ?
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  605. # [16:04] <annevk5> darkangel, depends on the UA
  606. # [16:04] <darkangel> annevk5: Okay.
  607. # [16:05] <annevk5> our implementation is not very nice; data:text/html,<input type=datetime> just says UTC for me
  608. # [16:05] <annevk5> but then we haven't given it much UI polish, it was mostly to show the XForms types it could work
  609. # [16:06] <Workshiva> Speaking of xforms, I haven't heard much about that lately
  610. # [16:07] <annevk5> it's all in the verticals
  611. # [16:07] <annevk5> hard to spot
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  613. # [16:09] <darkangel> annevk5: Hmm ... small bug: if you select the hour and click up/down, it will increment/decrement once and then lose focus, so additional clicks will affect the minutes instead.
  614. # [16:11] <annevk5> ugh
  615. # [16:11] <annevk5> we are making some progress now in making changes though, so hopefully that's included too
  616. # [16:11] * annevk5 is not closely involved in the UI fixing
  617. # [16:11] <darkangel> :)
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  619. # [16:12] <darkangel> +1 for actually implementing datetime. ;)
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  625. # [16:30] <jeromegn> annevk5: what should I be looking for after filtering my websocket port in wireshark? I see a few entries but all that data is a little out of my league
  626. # [16:33] <jeromegn> it looks like this... I did twice "new WebSocket": http://cl.ly/6e2920fc6e5abdf3594b
  627. # [16:36] <annevk5> jeromegn, when click one of those lines you get the data flow
  628. # [16:37] <annevk5> but I'm not quite familiar how one finds a failure, though you could compare the two stacks of it working and not working I suppose
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  631. # [16:42] <jeromegn> oh my
  632. # [16:42] <jeromegn> took hours for a ridiculous problem
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  635. # [16:47] <annevk5> Peter`, what does this do in IE
  636. # [16:47] <annevk5> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%3Cstyle%3E%20img%20{%20%20}%20%3C%2Fstyle%3E%0A%3Cimg%20src%3Dimage%20onload%3Dinit%28this%29%3E%0A%3Cscript%3E%0Afunction%20init%28i%29%20{%0A%20w%28i.x%29%3B%20w%28i.y%29%0A}%0A%3C%2Fscript%3E
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  638. # [16:51] <Peter`> could you give me the html snippet? IE says the URL cannot be opened
  639. # [16:51] <Ms2ger> <!DOCTYPE html> <style> img { } </style> <img src=image onload=init(this)> <script> function init(i) { w(i.x); w(i.y) } </script>
  640. # [16:51] <Ms2ger> Peter`, ^
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  642. # [16:52] <Peter`> thank you
  643. # [16:52] <annevk5> even better is this one
  644. # [16:52] <Peter`> rendering mode: BackCompat
  645. # [16:52] <Peter`> document has no title
  646. # [16:52] <Peter`> log: undefined
  647. # [16:52] <Peter`> log: undefined
  648. # [16:52] <annevk5> <!DOCTYPE html><style> img { float:right } </style><script>function init(i) { w(i.x); w(i.y) } </script><img src=image onload="init(this)" onclick=init(this)>
  649. # [16:52] <annevk5> and then click
  650. # [16:52] <annevk5> ooh
  651. # [16:52] <Peter`> same, but four times undefined
  652. # [16:53] <annevk5> so it's a WebKit/Firefox thing that is biting us
  653. # [16:53] <annevk5> maybe it can still be fixed
  654. # [16:53] <annevk5> wadda you say Ms2ger?
  655. # [16:53] <Ms2ger> cc me ;)
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  660. # [17:04] <annevk5> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=587021
  661. # [17:04] <annevk5> cleaning up the web platform
  662. # [17:04] <annevk5> two members at the time
  663. # [17:09] <Ms2ger> Thanks
  664. # [17:12] <annevk5> at one point I should go through all "interfaces" of all browsers and study the non-intersection
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  699. # [18:40] <TabAtkins> jgraham: How do you say "I don't speak Norwegian" in norwegian?
  700. # [18:40] * TabAtkins finds that that is a very useful phrase to have in any language.
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  702. # [18:54] <kling> TabAtkins: jeg snakker ikke norsk :]
  703. # [18:54] <TabAtkins> And how do I pronounce that?
  704. # [18:56] <kling> yay snacker icky narsque? i dunno. i just live in norway :)
  705. # [18:56] <TabAtkins> Haha, sounds fun to say.
  706. # [18:57] <daedb_> Norwegian always sounds disturbingly upbeat.
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  711. # [19:12] <Lachy> kling, TabAtkins, it's pronounced more like: yay snakker ikka norsk
  712. # [19:13] <TabAtkins> All right, hopefully I can avoid having to talk norwegian at anybody until I can say it in front of a friendly native.
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  715. # [19:18] * AryehGregor agrees that's a useful thing to know
  716. # [19:18] <AryehGregor> I can only say it in French, though.
  717. # [19:18] <TabAtkins> I got it in German.
  718. # [19:18] <Workshiva> You can only say you don't speak Norwegian in French?
  719. # [19:18] <TabAtkins> And spanish, I guess.
  720. # [19:18] * TabAtkins sighs. He knew someone would catch that awkward phrasing.
  721. # [19:18] <AryehGregor> Workshiva, no, I can say that in English, Hebrew, or French (if I look up the word for "Norwegian" in Hebrew and French).
  722. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> "Sprekken sie deutsch nicht", and "No hablo espanol".
  723. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> Oh, I guess I can do Spanish too.
  724. # [19:19] <TabAtkins> (Though I've been told the german is slightly wrong?)
  725. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> Kind of easy to learn Spanish in Manhattan, just look at all the ads.
  726. # [19:19] <Workshiva> ... very wrong
  727. # [19:19] <KaOSoFt> No idea the german version, but spanish's just missing the "ñ"
  728. # [19:20] <TabAtkins> Well then, it serves its purpose of indicating that I can't speak german.
  729. # [19:20] <Workshiva> The German one sounds like... a weird "You don't speak German"
  730. # [19:20] <TabAtkins> KaOSoFt: Yeah, I can't easily express that letter on this keyboard.
  731. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> Well, I have an Android phone, so I can say it in any language supported by the voice version of Google Translate.
  732. # [19:20] <Workshiva> Possibly an awkward "Please don't speak German"
  733. # [19:20] <KaOSoFt> TabAtkins- Alt + 164
  734. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> KaOSoFt, on Windows, maybe.
  735. # [19:20] <TabAtkins> KaOSoFt: Your windows key combinations do nothing for me!
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  737. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> Also, that looks like it's a Windows-1252 code point.
  738. # [19:21] <KaOSoFt> What are you on: Linux, Macintosh?
  739. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> (if I remember the numbers right)
  740. # [19:21] <TabAtkins> linux
  741. # [19:21] <KaOSoFt> Yeah, I sometimes have problems with that on Arch.
  742. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> Ctrl-Shift-uF1 on GNOME.
  743. # [19:21] <AryehGregor> ñ
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  745. # [19:24] <KaOSoFt> Hmm... never thought about it, but there certainly should be a way to do those extra characters on console (Linux).
  746. # [19:25] <AryehGregor> Ctrl-Shift-uXXXX works in GNOME, generally.
  747. # [19:26] <AryehGregor> Except in some programs where some letters break because they're bound to something else.
  748. # [19:28] <Ms2ger> (Like Opera)
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  812. # [23:01] <TabAtkins> Sigh. If you're going to replace the native checkboxes with js-driven images, at least make sure your images are *pretty*.
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  815. # [23:08] <AryehGregor> So, it seems like Oracle is suing Google because technically the Java patent grants didn't apply to modified versions. Now, why is it that everyone is calling the VP8 implementation open-source when the patent grant doesn't cover modified versions?
  816. # [23:09] <AryehGregor> Actually, I seem to explicitly remember someone from Mozilla objecting on www-font to use of font compression with field-of-use restrictions on the relevant patent licenses. Apparently that wasn't an overriding concern when it came to VP8.
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  818. # [23:10] <cheeser> software patents--
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  843. # [23:52] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: myself and jgraham live/work in Sweden. Our Norwegian is, uh, bad.
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  845. # [23:52] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Also, you'll get by fine with just English
  846. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> You guys don't work in the oslo office?
  847. # [23:53] <cheeser> i'll be presenting on websockets at JavaZone in Oslo next month.
  848. # [23:53] <cheeser> w00t!
  849. # [23:53] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Nah, in the Linköping office
  850. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> Ah, kk.
  851. # [23:53] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: Where all the cool stuff like Carakan happens ;P
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  855. # [23:57] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: This is why it's somewhat notable both of us being in Oslo for the week of the CSS WG meeting
  856. # [23:58] <TabAtkins> Was that just accidental, or were you guys coming down on purpose?
  857. # [23:58] <gsnedders> TabAtkins: In my case at least, I was going to be in Oslo some time this month anyway, and it made some sort of sense for it to be that week. He's primarily coming for it.
  858. # [23:59] <gsnedders> (made sense for it to be that week because of the meeting, that is)
  859. # [23:59] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  860. # Session Close: Sat Aug 14 00:00:00 2010

The end :)