/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2010-12-09 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Dec 09 00:00:00 2010
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:13] <hober> This seems like as good a place as any to mention that I'm looking for work. If you're looking to hire a full-stack web developer with some HTML5 familiarity, toss me a line. :)
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  20. # [00:23] <zcorpan> hober: don't fancy browser qa?
  21. # [00:25] <hober> zcorpan: browser qa sounds like the sort of thing that would drive somebody to write their own HTML spec
  22. # [00:25] <zcorpan> eventually, yeah, maybe
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  25. # [00:30] <Hixie> it has happened, can't be denied
  26. # [00:31] <Dashiva> But who will test the testers
  27. # [00:32] <krijnh> -_-
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  85. # [02:18] <Hixie> content-types for binary formats baffle me
  86. # [02:18] <Hixie> or rather, the way people defend them baffles me
  87. # [02:18] <Hixie> (re: the e-mail i'm about to send out replying to a long thread about video mime types last august)
  88. # [02:19] <boogyman> it's taken you this long to formulate a response, or you wished to see the opinion(s) of others
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  90. # [02:23] <Hixie> neither
  91. # [02:23] <micheil> Hixie: hey, did you ever say anything about kaazing and how they supposedly invented websockets as they stand at present?
  92. # [02:23] <Hixie> no idea
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  94. # [02:24] <Hixie> not sure how they stand at present, in fact :-)
  95. # [02:24] <micheil> "Kaazing basically invented the protocol as it stands now." - Ian Hickson, Google & HTML5 Author
  96. # [02:24] <micheil> http://www.kaazing.com/about/index.html
  97. # [02:25] <Hixie> micheil: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100131#l-223
  98. # [02:25] <micheil> looks like they like their patents too; as they seem to be pushing for one relating to using backwards compat. protocols with websockets
  99. # [02:25] <Hixie> (later, http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20100131#l-241 )
  100. # [02:26] <micheil> Hixie: right, so, it's a pretty big mis-guided quote
  101. # [02:26] <Hixie> how so?
  102. # [02:26] <Hixie> note that the hybi group has basically totally revamped the protocol, so it's kind of a moot point now
  103. # [02:26] <Hixie> as the protocol is nothing like it was then
  104. # [02:26] <micheil> well, the way it reads on their site it's like they are claiming to have invented the protocol as it is at present
  105. # [02:27] <micheil> but there's really a heap more people who have contributed to it
  106. # [02:27] <Hixie> oh, yeah, their site might be misleading *shrug*
  107. # [02:27] <Hixie> really at this point i don't know what the spec looks like
  108. # [02:27] <Hixie> but there aren't that many people who have contributed
  109. # [02:27] <Hixie> er, who had contributed
  110. # [02:27] <Hixie> at the time
  111. # [02:28] <Hixie> isn't the group basically going to do the design abarth proposed now?
  112. # [02:28] <micheil> Hixie: i think so, there are still some against it
  113. # [02:28] <Hixie> as i understand it there are three realistic handshake designs: tls-only, the one i designed based on mcarter's design, and abarth's design
  114. # [02:28] <Hixie> but i'm not really following the work closely, so don't take my word for it
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  116. # [02:31] <Hixie> anyone know if annevk is still worknig on the fullscreen cssom thing?
  117. # [02:32] <othermaciej> Hixie: at this point, I don't think the one you designed is secure
  118. # [02:32] <othermaciej> and therefore not realistic
  119. # [02:32] <Hixie> the one with the eight bytes is still secure according to abarth (i spoke to him just earlier today about it)
  120. # [02:32] <Hixie> what his group tested was the upgrade without the 8 bytes
  121. # [02:33] <gsnedders> What eight bytes?
  122. # [02:33] <Hixie> (which we knew wasn't secure; the 8 bytes were mitigation for that)
  123. # [02:33] <Hixie> gsnedders: key3
  124. # [02:33] <Hixie> and the server's response
  125. # [02:34] <othermaciej> I wouldn't interpret that as "still secure"
  126. # [02:34] <othermaciej> they didn't test one way or the other whether the 8 bytes help, or whether there is a way to work around whatever they do
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  128. # [02:35] <othermaciej> however, I still think it is less robust against a variety of threat models than the adam+eric proposal
  129. # [02:35] <othermaciej> at this point I wouldn't really trust it
  130. # [02:36] <Hixie> well i am not advocating it one way or the other
  131. # [02:36] <Hixie> so that's fine :-)
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  133. # [02:36] <Hixie> i'm not aware of any attack though, even theoretical
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  136. # [02:41] <othermaciej> its security against this intercepting proxy attack depends completely on whether the 8 random bytes break the ability to get intercepting proxies to see subsequent data on the connection as new requests
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  138. # [02:42] <othermaciej> (something that Adam et al didn't test but probably should have)
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  143. # [02:47] <Hixie> othermaciej: yes
  144. # [02:48] <Hixie> othermaciej: note that for there to be any subsequent data, the 8 bytes have to make it to the server and back to the client; note also that there's no way to distinguish the 8 bytes from the subsequent bytes, so if the 8 bytes get to the server, it seems highly unlikely that the remainder don't either. But indeed, we don't know without testing.
  145. # [02:48] <Hixie> It's academic, anyway, since the group isn't going to use this handshake.
  146. # [02:48] <othermaciej> well, it's still the handshake in current drafts
  147. # [02:49] <othermaciej> what's surprisingly hard is convince the group of the merits of the CONNECT handshake
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  170. # [04:05] <Hixie> maybe December 156h refers to December 342?
  171. # [04:05] <Hixie> not sure what that means either tohugh
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  174. # [04:06] <jcranmer> obviously, it's base 36
  175. # [04:07] <jcranmer> so it's December 53,369₁₀
  176. # [04:09] <heycam> 156 hours into december. i.e. 6:30am on decemeber 1. that's at least a valid date.
  177. # [04:09] <heycam> well, december 1 is a valid date. not sure about decemember.
  178. # [04:10] <jcranmer> since a day is 24 hours, last I checked
  179. # [04:10] <jcranmer> how can 156 hours into December be on December 1?
  180. # [04:15] <oojacoboo> jcranmer: it's called crack cocaine
  181. # [04:17] <jcranmer> <insert politically incorrect joke here>
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  185. # [04:33] <heycam> wow, i have no idea
  186. # [04:34] <heycam> more like 12noon on the 7th
  187. # [04:34] <oojacoboo> technically, if you had a time machine...
  188. # [04:34] <heycam> must be all these svg tests o_O
  189. # [04:35] <jcranmer> or maybe we finally invented the 240-hour day
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  199. # [05:17] <jamesr_> sounds like websockets is in need of an UPGRADE
  200. # [05:17] <jamesr_> *rimshot*
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  207. # [05:41] <wirepair> hehe
  208. # [05:42] <wirepair> jamesr_ i'm assuming you're referring to the issues adamb et. all found? :)
  209. # [05:42] <jamesr_> yeah
  210. # [05:42] <wirepair> yeah i just read the paper, interesting attack
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  231. # [07:10] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Yo, let's work out where dinner is being had tonight. I know basically nothing about tokyo, so I rely on you suggesting a good place.
  232. # [07:10] <MikeSmith> I can come meet out the Mori Tower
  233. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> either meet you in the lobby downstairs
  234. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> or I can come up to the 26th floor reception
  235. # [07:11] <TabAtkins> lobby downstairs is fine.
  236. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> hai
  237. # [07:11] <MikeSmith> any time is OK for me
  238. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> I tend to eat kind of late-ish usually
  239. # [07:12] <TabAtkins> 6:30?
  240. # [07:12] <paul_irish> go back to that Indian place.
  241. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> heh
  242. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> that place was not too bad
  243. # [07:12] <paul_irish> that cheese appetizer was tremendous.
  244. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> yeah, true
  245. # [07:12] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: you vegetarian?
  246. # [07:13] <TabAtkins> I've got someone I haven't met before coming to dinner, too, so if we can decide beforehand so I can tell him where to go, that would be nice. Alternately, I just tell him to get to Mori Tower.
  247. # [07:13] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: Jeezus no.
  248. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> heh
  249. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: tell him to come to Mori Tower
  250. # [07:13] <MikeSmith> then we can go wherever from there
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  252. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> there is a place only two stops away which is great for self-barbecue meat
  253. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> yaki-niku
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  255. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> that would be my recommendation
  256. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> it's in Nakameguro
  257. # [07:14] <TabAtkins> Heh, had yaki-niku last night.
  258. # [07:14] <MikeSmith> ah
  259. # [07:15] <MikeSmith> well, this place is better than wherever you went :)
  260. # [07:15] <TabAtkins> What sort of price?
  261. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> around 2200 yen
  262. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> iirc
  263. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> for a course thing
  264. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> deer meat
  265. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> boar meat
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  267. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> pheasant
  268. # [07:16] <MikeSmith> other stuff
  269. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> and the manager knows me so she always gives me extra stuff
  270. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> plus they have Ebisu draft
  271. # [07:17] <MikeSmith> plus it's right next to the Meguro river
  272. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> and there's another place nearby that serves the best craft beer in Tokyo by a wide margin
  273. # [07:18] <MikeSmith> Baird's Taphouse
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  275. # [07:18] <TabAtkins> Ooh, sounds great.
  276. # [07:19] <TabAtkins> Alex Russell is saying he doesn't want yaki-niku tonight, so if we hit that he won't join us.
  277. # [07:19] <MikeSmith> well, we can find another place
  278. # [07:20] <TabAtkins> Know any good sushi places?
  279. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> sure
  280. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> will cost us a lot more though
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  282. # [07:20] <TabAtkins> Eh, dinners are expensed.
  283. # [07:20] <TabAtkins> For us, at least.
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  285. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> OK
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  289. # [07:21] <TabAtkins> So whatever you're comfortable with.
  290. # [07:21] <MikeSmith> OK
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  295. # [07:32] <hober> MikeSmith: had much Hitachino Nest beers?
  296. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> hober: have not heard of that one
  297. # [07:32] <hober> some of the best .jp microbrew I've managed to find in .us
  298. # [07:32] <hober> keep an eye out
  299. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> cool
  300. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> I'll have to figure out where I can find some
  301. # [07:33] <MikeSmith> http://bairdbeer.com/en/taproom/nakameguro-taproom
  302. # [07:34] <hober> oooh
  303. # [07:34] <annevk> Hixie, working on fullscreen got delayed a bit
  304. # [07:41] <annevk> Hixie, at least for another month or so most likely as I have some vacation time I need to use
  305. # [07:41] <annevk> heycam, so if you got time meanwhile... ^^
  306. # [07:43] <annevk> oh lol, there's an issue on the acknowledgment section of the spec
  307. # [07:47] <Hixie> annevk: k, sounds good
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  311. # [08:15] <annevk> http://www.reddit.com/r/WTF/comments/eia6l/us_takes_break_from_attacking_wikileaks_to/ hahaha
  312. # [08:16] <annevk> "There certainly is an irony here."
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  319. # [08:35] <annevk> hmm, did Bjoern Hoehrmann just state he's going to fix CSS' grammar problem?
  320. # [08:35] * Quits: MikeSmith (~MikeSmith@EM114-48-129-165.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
  321. # [08:35] <annevk> where "just" is about six hours ago
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  327. # [08:50] <heycam> annevk, I'll see if I get time...
  328. # [08:53] <heycam> TabAtkins, when my Linux machine used to shut down due to overheating, there was usually about 2 seconds between it walling "system is going down now" and my processes starting to get killed. :)
  329. # [08:53] <hsivonen> http://hacks.mozilla.org/2010/12/websockets-disabled-in-firefox-4/comment-page-1/#comment-295447
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  331. # [08:55] <othermaciej> Flash and Java do in fact have the cache poisoning vulnerability (at least as far as I can tell from the paper)
  332. # [08:56] <othermaciej> I believe the vendors are not interested in fixing
  333. # [08:56] <othermaciej> annevk: what grammar problem does CSS have?
  334. # [08:57] <annevk> it being split between prose and productions and not being very clear over all
  335. # [08:57] <TabAtkins> heycam: Heh, kk. Still an invalid bug, of course.
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  339. # [08:58] <TabAtkins> heycam: Still seems unlikely that the dude was able to type as much as he did and submit it if they have a similar 2-second warning.
  340. # [08:58] <heycam> TabAtkins, yeah
  341. # [08:58] <heycam> TabAtkins, it's like when you're in primary school doing creative writing, and you write a letter / diary entry where at the end you die and the pen ink trails off the page
  342. # [09:00] <TabAtkins> Hopefully when you do that you don't actually write out "Oh god I'm dying AAAAAaaaaaaaa........."
  343. # [09:00] <othermaciej> ah, now I see
  344. # [09:01] <heycam> TabAtkins, something like that :p
  345. # [09:04] <TabAtkins> annevk: That's what he implied, yeah.
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  364. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: on my way over to the tower
  365. # [09:53] <MikeSmith> see you in the lobby at 6;30
  366. # [09:54] <MikeSmith> if we fail to find each other somehow, my mobile number is 080-5009-8161
  367. # [09:58] <TabAtkins> kk
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  372. # [10:24] <phrearch> hi
  373. # [10:24] <annevk> hoi
  374. # [10:25] <phrearch> hoi :)
  375. # [10:25] <boogyman> what up doc
  376. # [10:25] <phrearch> i just read about the websocket insecurity problem. any idea how long it will take to fix it?
  377. # [10:25] <annevk> well, the plan always has been to change the handshake
  378. # [10:26] <annevk> it's just that the IETF is slow making up its mind
  379. # [10:26] <phrearch> aha, so the ietf has to approve it first?
  380. # [10:27] <annevk> I think the idea at this point is to wait for rough consensus on the IETF hybi list, yes
  381. # [10:27] <annevk> not sure about approving
  382. # [10:28] <phrearch> how serious is this bug really? all i understood of it was its possible to serve an attacker's version of a js file, instead of the one expected
  383. # [10:28] <annevk> you don't think that's serious?
  384. # [10:28] <phrearch> trying to think of worse-case-scenarios :)
  385. # [10:28] <phrearch> yea, thats serious enough
  386. # [10:31] <phrearch> i guess it makes it possible to send form data to an arbitrary site, without the user noticing it
  387. # [10:31] * Quits: TabAtkins (~tabatkins@220.109.219.244) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
  388. # [10:32] <annevk> e.g. stealing all your online email
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  390. # [10:37] <jgraham> Yeah, the deal is that it's a hugely serious hole if you happen to be behind an affected proxy
  391. # [10:37] <jgraham> The bad news is that there is nothing you can do to protext yourself apart from not being behind such a proxy
  392. # [10:37] <jgraham> *protect
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  394. # [10:39] <jgraham> Disabling websockets is good because it reduces the number of attack vectors, but it doesn't close the hole entirely, since flash and java are both vectors and you can be affected if another user behind the same proxy is used as the vector
  395. # [10:39] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@33.115.34.95.customer.cdi.no)
  396. # [10:39] <jgraham> s/as/to provide/
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  399. # [10:47] <phrearch> what kind of proxys are vulnerable?
  400. # [10:50] <phrearch> i read that its about proxys that dont interpret the update handshake correctly, but doesnt that append on the implementation?
  401. # [10:50] <phrearch> just trying to understand it. im a bit of a noob to networking tech
  402. # [10:52] <jgraham> Yeah, aiui it is a bug in the proxies that makes them vunerable
  403. # [10:53] <phrearch> so suppose i have a server at some provider, then all the proxies in between can introduce this security risk?
  404. # [10:54] <phrearch> is it possible to know how many proxies are in between, and what kind?
  405. # [10:54] <othermaciej> regular proxies that are actually configured in your browser don't have this issue
  406. # [10:55] <othermaciej> only certain intercepting/transparent proxies, which catch http traffic without clients knowing about it
  407. # [10:55] <phrearch> aha
  408. # [10:55] <othermaciej> typically they exist only in "enterprise" setups with a firewall
  409. # [10:57] <phrearch> ah well, by the time this websocket app is finished, it'll be fixed already a long time :)
  410. # [10:58] <phrearch> i read that ff4 still can have ws enabled by switching it on manually
  411. # [10:58] <phrearch> im trying to come up with a sane routing system for my websocket calls.
  412. # [10:58] <phrearch> like applying the same kind of urls as for regular http calls
  413. # [10:59] <jgraham> Yes, it will also be pref-enabled (default:off) in Opera
  414. # [10:59] <phrearch> well, glad it can be re-enabled for devving
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  416. # [11:06] <annevk> do browsers have javascript array limits of some kind?
  417. # [11:06] <annevk> I noticed there are some problems with the encoding data I'm getting back
  418. # [11:07] <annevk> it seems the array of objects is losing members along the way or something like that
  419. # [11:07] <jgraham> What kind of limits did you have in mind?
  420. # [11:08] <jgraham> You can only have 2**32 - 1 items in the array
  421. # [11:09] <jgraham> But I guess that is not the limit you are hitting
  422. # [11:13] <annevk> not at all :/
  423. # [11:13] <annevk> I guess there is a bug in the code somewhere
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  427. # [11:22] <annevk> oops lol, found it
  428. # [11:22] <annevk> data is correct, made an error with printing
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  440. # [11:53] <Workshiva> I'm trying to think of an example of a required attribute, but I can't think of any
  441. # [11:53] <annevk> <meta> requires at least one right?
  442. # [11:53] <Workshiva> Yeah, but not a specific one in all cases
  443. # [11:53] <annevk> maybe <map> requires ID?
  444. # [11:54] <moo_> not related, but does <script> allow class="" ?
  445. # [11:54] <annevk> would make sense to me
  446. # [11:54] <annevk> moo_, it does
  447. # [11:54] <Workshiva> Everything allows class, doesn't it?
  448. # [11:54] <moo_> annevk: thx
  449. # [11:54] <annevk> Workshiva, right
  450. # [11:54] <Workshiva> annevk: You were right about map, thanks
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  456. # [12:12] <hsivonen> kudos to david_carlisle for being the first to mention CORS on xml-dev
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  458. # [12:17] <hsivonen> annevk: is there some kind of Cross-Site Requests for Dummies publication that explain the threat model, related issues and solutions related to cross-origin loads?
  459. # [12:17] <annevk> no, but there should be
  460. # [12:18] <hsivonen> If there was one, I'd drop the link on xml-dev, but I don't have the time to write one right now
  461. # [12:18] <annevk> didn't realize until yesterday that list was still active
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  465. # [12:24] <david_carlisle> hsivonen: well only 'cause i was hanging around here and thought you lot would would be too scared to stick your head above the xml-dev parapet
  466. # [12:25] <david_carlisle> I think it was annevk who mentioned it here?
  467. # [12:25] <hsivonen> david_carlisle: I'm not scared. I'm just usually too busy to delurk or even read what's going on there.
  468. # [12:26] <david_carlisle> :-)
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  470. # [12:29] <david_carlisle> By the way is the cors aware xmlhttpwhatever implemented in the current round of browsers, ie could someone put up a demo of xml being loaded cross site and have it work?
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  472. # [12:32] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/Security/wiki/Comparison_of_CORS_and_UMP#Implementation_Data may be relevant
  473. # [12:33] <david_carlisle> thanks
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  489. # [13:20] <hsivonen> was this pasted here already: http://markmail.org/message/taujq5vzj7ttlrh2 ?
  490. # [13:22] <jgraham> hsivonen: Don't feed the troll?
  491. # [13:24] <jgraham> Although maybe if he tried using a web browser rather than just bitching about how they are holding back all that is good and holy and XML, he would be able to get a correct definition for "script kiddie"
  492. # [13:24] <beowulf> that's a nice thing to say, who is this chap?
  493. # [13:31] <annevk> Kurt Cagle -- XForms fanboy
  494. # [13:31] <annevk> or something like that
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  496. # [13:35] <annevk> hober, http://www.mysociety.org/2010/12/08/job-advert-developers/ via berjon on twitter
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  500. # [14:09] <karlcow> http://www.guardian.co.uk/info/developer-blog/2010/nov/25/six-development-lessons
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  518. # [14:31] <annevk> "And would solution A or B require the least changes?"
  519. # [14:31] <annevk> or... there's no problem, no changes required!
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  528. # [15:03] <annevk> omg JSON requires double quotes?!
  529. # [15:03] <annevk> lolz
  530. # [15:03] <zcorpan> what?
  531. # [15:03] <zcorpan> oh
  532. # [15:04] <zcorpan> yes
  533. # [15:05] <annevk> trailing space was also too much
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  535. # [15:11] <annevk> gotta love JSON
  536. # [15:13] <Philip`> Getting interoperability on the current format is hard enough, so it's good they didn't add additional redundant syntax like different quotes
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  584. # [17:39] <karlcow> http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/7991991/
  585. # [17:39] <karlcow> We are the first to implement the WebSockets
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  587. # [17:47] <hober> annevk: that sounds cool, but requires UK residency
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  597. # [18:10] <jgraham> hober: Nothing wrong with being a UK resident.
  598. # [18:10] <jgraham> Well apart from the government of course
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  600. # [18:13] <Philip`> And the weather
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  602. # [18:13] <Philip`> And the people who continually talk about the weather
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  604. # [18:14] <david_carlisle> http://xkcd.com/831/
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  631. # [18:46] <annevk> encodings are terrible
  632. # [18:46] <annevk> terrible
  633. # [18:46] <annevk> terrible oh so terrible
  634. # [18:46] <annevk> and this only covers 8bit
  635. # [18:46] <annevk> 5 browsers, 300 labels, 155 distinct mappings from bytes to characters
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  638. # [18:47] <annevk> 187 groups of label aliases
  639. # [18:47] <annevk> 107 if I ignore labels that a browser would normally not recognize
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  641. # [18:48] <annevk> I guess the other word here is insane
  642. # [18:48] <annevk> and a visualization problem
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  649. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> "Your suggestion is founded on aesthetical reasoning. HTML is ugly."
  650. # [18:56] <AryehGregor> I vote that we adopt that as a WHATWG motto.
  651. # [18:57] <annevk> krijnh, ^^
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  674. # [19:12] <annevk> http://www.nrc.nl/economie/article2647862.ece/Wikipedia_pionnen_Shell_op_alle_niveaus_politiek_Nigeria -- Wikileaks is now known as Wikipedia...
  675. # [19:13] <annevk> only in headlines, for now ;p
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  678. # [19:14] <annevk> from the feed it seems they got it right originally and then someone "fixed" it
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  680. # [19:16] <othermaciej> I think I would be creeped out by a "Personal Appeal from Julian Assange"
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  682. # [19:16] <annevk> he lacks the stare for that to work
  683. # [19:16] <annevk> though the new site included a picture of him
  684. # [19:17] <Rik`> it's really silly that when you give to wikipedia, they don't close the banner
  685. # [19:18] <AryehGregor> It's really silly that when you close it every single time, it still pops up again.
  686. # [19:18] <Rik`> it doesn't for me
  687. # [19:18] <AryehGregor> I must have donated thousands of dollars' worth of volunteer programming time to Wikipedia, stop bothering me.
  688. # [19:18] <Rik`> I had to close it on en.w.o and fr.w.o but only once
  689. # [19:18] <AryehGregor> Maybe I'm seeing it on multiple sites, or browsers, but I've sure closed it an awful lot more than once.
  690. # [19:18] <annevk> now I get "Please read: A personal appeal from Wikipedia author Lilaroja"
  691. # [19:18] <annevk> she looks more friendly
  692. # [19:19] <annevk> I usually just scroll down...
  693. # [19:19] <AryehGregor> The Jimmy Wales ones were better, I think.
  694. # [19:19] <hsivonen> Rik`: it they closed it, you'd miss Jimbo's next photo or the new non-Jimbo person
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  696. # [19:19] <Philip`> Lilaroja wrote Wikipedia?
  697. # [19:19] <Philip`> Must have taken him/her a long time
  698. # [19:19] <jgraham> AryehGregor: You could donate a few more dollars of time to fix it :)
  699. # [19:20] <annevk> Philip`, couple of monkeys and infinite time
  700. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> I'm getting Sue Gardner. They could have used a better picture.
  701. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> The Jimbo pictures are great. He's really photogenic.
  702. # [19:20] <jamesr_> i use https://chrome.google.com/extensions/detail/idkjdjficifbfjjkdkiimioljbloddpl
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  704. # [19:20] <AryehGregor> Plus he's famous and rich.
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  768. # [21:28] <zcorpan> gsnedders: i got an error from your outliner, <type 'exceptions.TypeError'>: argument to reversed() must be a sequence
  769. # [21:28] <gsnedders> zcorpan: known bug…
  770. # [21:29] <gsnedders> zcorpan: I am frequently reminded of this, and frequently forget and do something more interesting than fix it :P
  771. # [21:29] <zcorpan> does the bug manifest itself also with the other input method?
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  773. # [21:31] <gsnedders> no
  774. # [21:31] <gsnedders> This is why I didn't panic and fix it straight away :P
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  777. # [21:32] <zcorpan> not convinced you would have fixed it anyway :P
  778. # [21:32] <gsnedders> Yeah, true.
  779. # [21:34] <gsnedders> zcorpan: You know me too well.
  780. # [21:34] <gsnedders> It's kinda sad. :P
  781. # [21:35] * ap|away is now known as ap
  782. # [21:36] <alohci> Hi. If the formOwner of a label doesn't match the formOwner of the a submit button that it labels, and the user clicks on the label on a platform that would cause the submit button to fire, which form would be submitted, the owner of the label or the owner of the submit button
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  794. # [22:04] <zcorpan> alohci: clicking a label activates the label's associated control
  795. # [22:05] <zcorpan> though buttons shouldn't have <label>s since the button text is the label
  796. # [22:06] <alohci> that's not invalid though, is it?
  797. # [22:07] <alohci> I'm trying to establish what use the form content attribute is on the label element. It doesn't seem to do anything.
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  799. # [22:10] <zcorpan> yeah it might not be useful for anything
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  807. # [22:15] <zcorpan> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/hybi/current/msg05083.html - what do y'all think, should we kill cookies in websockets? (opera supports cookies for websockets, haven't checked other browsers)
  808. # [22:16] * zcorpan goes to eat a cookie
  809. # [22:16] <Hixie> i'm fine with killing cookies in websockets, but then i basically never use cookies anyway :-)
  810. # [22:16] <Hixie> localStorage + custom channel is fine imho
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  814. # [22:18] <zcorpan> seems likely that cookies will just bloat the handshake 99% of the time
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  817. # [22:20] <zcorpan> (and you don't need to use cookies yourself for cookies to bloat everything, you just need to use some ads or statistics service or a number of other things)
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  826. # [22:42] <annevk> Discovery Channel is using the slogan "Ignorance is bliss"
  827. # [22:42] <annevk> color me surprised
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  838. # [22:57] <oojacoboo> are there any plans to introduce things like min-top: for positioning
  839. # [22:58] <oojacoboo> this would be an awesome style for fixed positioned elements!
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  843. # [23:00] <oojacoboo> or even something like... margin: min(10%, 2em); padding: max(5%, 20px); width: calc(80% - 2em);
  844. # [23:00] <oojacoboo> that's suffice for most all uses
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  849. # [23:06] <Ms2ger> oojacoboo, http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-values/#the-calc-min-and-max-functions
  850. # [23:07] <oojacoboo> doooooood
  851. # [23:07] <oojacoboo> any support yet?
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  853. # [23:11] <oojacoboo> Ms2ger?
  854. # [23:11] <Ms2ger> I doubt it
  855. # [23:11] <oojacoboo> :/
  856. # [23:12] <oojacoboo> it's always the good stuff that lacks support
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  863. # [23:21] <annevk> hmm, no more encoding stuff after all I guess
  864. # [23:21] <annevk> my brain is fried
  865. # [23:21] <annevk> I wonder if that was the reason I stopped looking into it a year ago
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  867. # [23:26] <karlcow> annevk: Accept your mime type.
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  871. # [23:28] <annevk> this stuff is deeper than mime man
  872. # [23:29] <annevk> hmm, I fail at completing this pun
  873. # [23:29] <annevk> but encodings are distinct
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  878. # [23:43] * aroben|away is now known as aroben
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  887. # [23:59] <jgraham> zcorpan: Die cookies, die!
  888. # [23:59] <jgraham> Or "yes I am happy to kill them with WS", if you prefer
  889. # [23:59] <karlcow> https://blogs.apache.org/foundation/entry/the_asf_resigns_from_the
  890. # Session Close: Fri Dec 10 00:00:00 2010

The end :)