/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2011-01-22 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Sat Jan 22 00:00:00 2011
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  6. # [00:04] <bfrohs> TabAtkins: Does it support multiple tags for each level? e.g. - body { section, article { strong {prop:value; } } }
  7. # [00:04] <TabAtkins> bfrohs: Of course.
  8. # [00:04] <bfrohs> TabAtkins: You're my hero :)
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  11. # [00:10] <Steve^> This new CSS is effectively the same as Sass or less?
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  13. # [00:10] <TabAtkins> Highly inspired, yeah.
  14. # [00:11] <Hixie> http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/FAQ updated based on theblog comments
  15. # [00:13] <Steve^> TabAtkins, what are the fundamental differences?
  16. # [00:14] <chriseppstein> Steve^: So far the biggest diff is some parser constraints and things have be kept declarative instead of sass's more imperative style.
  17. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Steve^: Vars act like they should in a declarative language, unlike SASS where it can be assigned different values at different times.
  18. # [00:14] <TabAtkins> Then just some relatively minor syntax differences.
  19. # [00:15] <chriseppstein> TabAtkins: Lots of people are worried about nesting as a perf drag because descendent selectors are slow
  20. # [00:15] <Steve^> Less has constants, rather than variables
  21. # [00:16] <TabAtkins> chriseppstein: Nesting has no inherent relationship to descendant selectors. That's one of the things our syntax helps with.
  22. # [00:16] <chriseppstein> TabAtkins: how so
  23. # [00:17] <TabAtkins> foo { & > bar { prop: value; }} === foo > bar { prop: value; }
  24. # [00:17] <chriseppstein> right. you can do that in sass
  25. # [00:17] <chriseppstein> you can even omit the &
  26. # [00:17] <Steve^> exactly
  27. # [00:17] * Joins: weinig_ (~weinig@17.246.18.216)
  28. # [00:17] <Steve^> So how does the & help us?
  29. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Yeah, so there's no perf hit that you wouldn't see otherwise. You're not forced to use descendant selectors. It's exactly as easy to write performant nested CSS as not.
  30. # [00:18] <chriseppstein> Steve^: body.foo &
  31. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> Steve^: When parsing CSS, if you don't have an explicit indication that "here there be nesting", you ahve to have lots of lookahead.
  32. # [00:18] <TabAtkins> In "foo { bar:hover a a a a a a { prop: value; }}", you don't know whether this is an element with a pseudoclass or a property named "bar" until you reach the {.
  33. # [00:18] <Steve^> hmm, not so sure about that
  34. # [00:19] <Steve^> ok, but does that matter?
  35. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Yes. We try to minimize lookahead in CSS.
  36. # [00:19] <chriseppstein> TabAtkins: I agree. It's just a concern that people have. might want to make sure to note it in your post
  37. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> Except for a few minor places, we only have to do 1-token lookahead max.
  38. # [00:19] <TabAtkins> chriseppstein: Sure.
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  40. # [00:19] <Steve^> Yea, nice to explain that. First glance it looks like less/sass but with more syntax
  41. # [00:20] <Steve^> TabAtkins, how would you nest a :hover?
  42. # [00:20] <TabAtkins> foo { &:hover { prop:value; }}
  43. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> (This is another benefit of our syntax over the no-explicit-indicator syntax.)
  44. # [00:21] <Steve^> Would you have mixins?
  45. # [00:21] * Quits: BlurstOfTimes (~blurstoft@168.203.103.108) (Remote host closed the connection)
  46. # [00:21] <TabAtkins> You can use mixins and nesting together, yeah.
  47. # [00:21] * Quits: kor (~kor@ip146-53-210-87.adsl2.static.versatel.nl) (Quit: kor)
  48. # [00:22] <chriseppstein> TabAtkins: That's legal sass you just typed ;)
  49. # [00:22] * Quits: seventh (seventh@199.48.243.37) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  50. # [00:22] <Steve^> So, you've added a & and restricting variables a little (so it's more like less, to my understanding)
  51. # [00:22] <TabAtkins> chriseppstein: Yeah, I'm just saying.
  52. # [00:22] <chriseppstein> Steve^: even less.js has &
  53. # [00:23] <Steve^> bah, less.js is a mess
  54. # [00:23] <chriseppstein> confirm
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  56. # [00:23] <Steve^> I tried raising bugs and the developers didn't seem to care
  57. # [00:23] <Steve^> but it'll be nice for a CSS fallback
  58. # [00:24] <chriseppstein> you can use scss now :) we don't ignore bugs
  59. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> We're writing a preprocessor for our syntax anyway, so you'll be able to run it just like SASS/LESS, and use the new syntax now rather than a decade from now.
  60. # [00:24] <Steve^> chriseppstein, is that a typo of sass?
  61. # [00:24] <chriseppstein> scss is sass's css-based syntax
  62. # [00:24] * bga_ is now known as bga_|away
  63. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> Also, SASS may just add a mode that recognizes the spec syntax.
  64. # [00:24] <Steve^> ah
  65. # [00:24] <TabAtkins> alter scss to do so.
  66. # [00:25] <chriseppstein> TabAtkins: ya. maybe we'll just parse css in that mode
  67. # [00:26] <TabAtkins> If a spec says that UAs must block cross-origin loads, does CORS apply automatically or does the spec need to explicitly say "unless lifted by CORS"?
  68. # [00:27] <TabAtkins> s/loads/loads of a particular type of resource/
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  71. # [00:30] <Steve^> oh wow, Less have stopped the ruby version?
  72. # [00:31] <chriseppstein> Steve^: yes. it's deprecated
  73. # [00:31] <Steve^> when I tried it it was hot of the press, there was literally one decent blog post on it
  74. # [00:32] <chriseppstein> Steve^: Sass has been around for 4 years with the same active, maintainer.
  75. # [00:32] <Steve^> My super-critical bug was that urls in normal css files are relative to the css file location, whereas urls via less.js were relative to the site
  76. # [00:32] <Steve^> so it wasn't compatible with itself
  77. # [00:33] <Steve^> I'm not sure I see the point of less.js outside of development
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  79. # [00:34] <Steve^> Why exclude that really small percentage of users and add an overhead?
  80. # [00:34] <chriseppstein> Steve^: right. even @cloudhead recommends using the server side version for any "real" use
  81. # [00:34] <chriseppstein> it can run on the server using node.js
  82. # [00:34] <Steve^> So.. they deprecated themselves?
  83. # [00:35] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  84. # [00:35] <chriseppstein> less.js can run in client and server
  85. # [00:35] <chriseppstein> the idea is pretty neat
  86. # [00:36] <Steve^> Are we actually saying that everyone has JS now though?
  87. # [00:37] <chriseppstein> ?
  88. # [00:38] <Steve^> yea, ignore me
  89. # [00:38] <Steve^> that's the official notice that it's bed time
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  91. # [00:38] <chriseppstein> 'nite
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  93. # [00:39] <davidmurdoch_> paul_irish told me to come in here and ask TabAtkins about this: http://jsfiddle.net/sBy6M/
  94. # [00:39] <TabAtkins> I categorically refuse to answer questions about flexbox, since I'm writing a new version of it right now. ^_^
  95. # [00:40] <jamesr_> davidmurdoch_: hmm, i guess setting display:block changes the replaced behavior?
  96. # [00:40] <jamesr_> i always get confused about how layout works with replaced elements (like iframes)
  97. # [00:40] <davidmurdoch_> are you sure. cus I've been at it for about 3 hours before I figure out that the docs were wrong (i think)
  98. # [00:40] <Steve^> wait... Chrome 10?
  99. # [00:40] <jamesr_> davidmurdoch_: can you file a bug on bugs.webkit.org, actually?
  100. # [00:40] <jamesr_> looks like an implementation bug
  101. # [00:40] <TabAtkins> They're display:inline, but inline replaced acts just like display:inline-block.
  102. # [00:40] <Steve^> I thought we were in 9 beta
  103. # [00:40] <davidmurdoch_> i'm on dev.
  104. # [00:40] <jamesr_> although like tab said flexbox is going to get changed
  105. # [00:41] <Steve^> crazy
  106. # [00:41] <Steve^> (not you, the version numbering)
  107. # [00:41] <davidmurdoch_> so, should I file the bug?
  108. # [00:42] <TabAtkins> I don't know. The behavior of current-draft flexbox feels dangerously underspecified, so I'm not certain what behavior is right and what is wrong.
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  110. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> However! I suspect the problem is that only display:block element can actually be flexbox children. display:inline elements get wrapped in an anonymous block box. This can cause troubles similar to what you get with the table-* display values sometimes.
  111. # [00:43] <Steve^> How are Chrome going to get around the version numbering problem that Opera 10 found?
  112. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> Steve^: By powering through.
  113. # [00:43] <TabAtkins> We already know that there's some problems, but shrug.
  114. # [00:44] <Steve^> That is the Google way!
  115. # [00:44] <Steve^> Alright, night guys
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  118. # [00:50] <davidmurdoch_> TabAtkins: i just tested it on a <span/> and found the same problem.
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  122. # [00:50] <TabAtkins> That's consistent with what I just said.
  123. # [00:51] <davidmurdoch_> Yup, I was just checking.
  124. # [00:53] <davidmurdoch_> From the docs: "If inline-level elements are nested inside boxes, they get wrapped in an anonymous block which then takes part in the box layout." Wouldn't this mean that inline elements should behave exactly the same as block-level?
  125. # [00:53] <davidmurdoch_> sorry, i know you don't care to answer these questions.
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  127. # [00:53] <davidmurdoch_> I'll check what firefox does.
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  132. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> No, the thing that participates in layout is the block box, which you can't target or give any instructions to.
  133. # [01:00] <TabAtkins> davidmurdoch_: In particular, you can't tell it to flex.
  134. # [01:01] <davidmurdoch_> well, thats just confusing. :-)
  135. # [01:01] <TabAtkins> Yeah, anonymous blocks confuse a lot of people.
  136. # [01:02] <TabAtkins> They are an unfortunate necessity in many circumstances.
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  138. # [01:02] <davidmurdoch_> Firefox 4 treats the containing element as inline-block...
  139. # [01:03] <davidmurdoch_> it ignores the height on the iframe and flexes it to match the box.
  140. # [01:03] <davidmurdoch_> ...it flxes the width to match the box as well.
  141. # [01:04] <davidmurdoch_> it ignores <span> completely
  142. # [01:04] <davidmurdoch_> http://jsfiddle.net/sBy6M/2/
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  154. # [01:15] <Hixie> just hit r5800
  155. # [01:15] <TabAtkins> Wake me when you're over 9000.
  156. # [01:16] <Hixie> wow, you're going for a long sleep
  157. # [01:17] <TabAtkins> Start committing with each keystroke.
  158. # [01:17] <Hixie> you haven't seen some of my recent commits ;-)
  159. # [01:17] <Hixie> unfortunately it takes forever to build
  160. # [01:17] <Hixie> so that doesn't scale
  161. # [01:18] <gsnedders> Optimize!
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  163. # [01:20] <Hixie> well to be fair, thanks to you it's way faster than it used to be
  164. # [01:20] <Hixie> i mean i run about 5 anolis' each time
  165. # [01:20] <Hixie> there was no way i could do that before
  166. # [01:20] <gsnedders> Anolis could be way quicker
  167. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> All right, new blog post about vars/mixins/nesting
  168. # [01:23] <TabAtkins> http://www.xanthir.com/blog/b49w0
  169. # [01:24] <paul_irish> \o/ tab!
  170. # [01:24] <paul_irish> the @lang attribute.. seems to be totally reasonable to declare it on the <body> elem.. does the fact that <title> precedes body and is un-lang'ed matter?
  171. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> Only insofar as you care that <title> is unlanged.
  172. # [01:24] <Hixie> put it on <html>
  173. # [01:24] <TabAtkins> Plus maybe other metadata in head.
  174. # [01:24] <paul_irish> aw. okay.
  175. # [01:25] <nimbupani> i knew there was a good reason for lang to be on html
  176. # [01:27] <paul_irish> TabAtkins: whats the story with that color cycley-sometimes bar on your site?
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  179. # [01:29] <paul_irish> TabAtkins: Nevermind. chrome extension. :) (great post. i'm linking it up on the big nettuts article today)
  180. # [01:29] <chriseppstein> TabAtkins: I don't see types here.
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  182. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> Yeah, I had to turn off that extension for my site, because it's annoying and doesn't work right.
  183. # [01:29] <TabAtkins> chriseppstein: They're there, but we figured out how to make them optional.
  184. # [01:29] <chriseppstein> TabAtkins: I <3 you
  185. # [01:29] <nimbupani> ahem ahem
  186. # [01:30] <chriseppstein> nimbupani: hush
  187. # [01:30] <bfrohs> TabAtkins: May I make a suggestion for how to make your recent post backward compatible in a way?
  188. # [01:30] <chriseppstein> oh there they are
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  190. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> bfrohs: What's up?
  191. # [01:31] <TabAtkins> Also, brb, grabbing snacks and beer.
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  193. # [01:33] <bfrohs> TabAtkins: As much as I hate to suggest it, using conditional statements (or something similar) like IE has. It would force two separate CSS files at first, but should (well, may) speed up adoption of the new CSS. Okay, looking back, this probably wouldn't help, but it's a suggestion to consider I guess ;)
  194. # [01:33] <paul_irish> chriseppstein: did you bring up our ideas on that to tab already?
  195. # [01:34] <chriseppstein> paul_irish: I did not
  196. # [01:34] <chriseppstein> paul_irish: go ahead
  197. # [01:34] <paul_irish> k. /me gets beer and snacks and corners Tab.
  198. # [01:39] <nimbupani> oo so close to sass chriseppstein
  199. # [01:39] <nimbupani> these proposals :D
  200. # [01:39] * chriseppstein is happy
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  202. # [01:39] <chriseppstein> still a lot missing
  203. # [01:40] <nimbupani> its a good start :P
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  206. # [01:44] <benschwarz> Want for appCache: conditionally download assets, based on media queries
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  208. # [01:45] <ap> benschwarz: what good will this appcache be if you rotate your iPhone, changing screen dimensions?
  209. # [01:45] <benschwarz> The application in question has double density graphics for retina display, yet we have to download the standard size resources as well…
  210. # [01:45] <benschwarz> ap: I wouldn't use dimensions as a means of discovering which graphics should be downloaded
  211. # [01:46] <benschwarz> Its a poor practice, really
  212. # [01:48] <benschwarz> I was hoping to incite some discussion around this… wrong time of day in the US I guess
  213. # [01:48] <TabAtkins> bfrohs: I didn't mind conditional comments. But yeah, something like that might help.
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  216. # [01:55] <benschwarz> re: The CSSOM discussion
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  218. # [01:56] <benschwarz> Anyone who has worked on javascript heavy mobile applications knows that repaints are expensive. Some native methods to set multiple properties at once would be very useful
  219. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> Indeed. That's been discussed before, and something to help with that will show up at some point.
  220. # [01:56] <TabAtkins> How to do it best without making it easy to shoot yourself in the foot is the open question.
  221. # [01:57] <benschwarz> Why invent syntaxes? Whats wrong with simple hash assignment?
  222. # [01:58] <TabAtkins> Because setting several things at once isn't the problem. Generally, browsers already coalesce multiple property sets into one. The problem is declaring that you're okay with *reading* stale data, so you don't need to force a layout every time you ask for offsetTop.
  223. # [02:00] <benschwarz> TabAtkins: Why should it be considered stale?
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  225. # [02:00] <TabAtkins> Because you've updated something that could potentially have changed it?
  226. # [02:00] <TabAtkins> Like the size of an ancestor or something.
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  228. # [02:01] <paul_irish> benschwarz: the use case is i want to do LOTS of stuff before i want the browser to do a reflow/repaint. touch a bunch of elements.
  229. # [02:01] <benschwarz> paul_irish: so, an 'atomic commit'?
  230. # [02:02] * Parts: bfrohs (~bfrohs@24-236-214-100.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com)
  231. # [02:03] <paul_irish> 'suppose so.
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  234. # [02:08] <benschwarz> paul_irish: any thoughts on appCache ^ ?
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  236. # [02:09] <paul_irish> i would also like media queries to affect img @src's
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  242. # [02:16] <benschwarz> paul_irish: good idea. perhaps worth a post to the whatwg list?
  243. # [02:17] <paul_irish> yeah it's a very old feat request from brad neuberg. it looks to have never been formally suggested.
  244. # [02:18] <nimbupani> why is he not here :/
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  246. # [02:24] <MikeSmith> shh, brad doesn't know about IRC yet
  247. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> we're trying to keep it secret from him
  248. # [02:25] <nimbupani> :D
  249. # [02:25] <MikeSmith> so he'll stay busy working on his other stuff
  250. # [02:25] <nimbupani> :))
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  252. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> it is extremely cool to see browser implementors taking inspiration from CSS preprocessors
  253. # [02:29] <nimbupani> WOOT WOOT
  254. # [02:29] <TabAtkins> Pave the cowpaths, man.
  255. # [02:29] <nimbupani> about time
  256. # [02:29] <MikeSmith> yep
  257. # [02:30] <MikeSmith> much like inspiration was taken from JS libraries for other features now implemented natively
  258. # [02:30] <TabAtkins> Yup.
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  261. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: and glad the you are representing in the CSS WG
  262. # [02:31] <MikeSmith> *that you are
  263. # [02:31] <TabAtkins> ^_^
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  269. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> gsnedders: I like http://twitter.com/#!/gsnedders/status/28468340255105024
  270. # [02:39] <MikeSmith> you should write more poems like that
  271. # [02:40] <MikeSmith> Nabokov himself never wrote anything half as great
  272. # [02:41] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: As brucel pointed out, it's Yeats.
  273. # [02:41] <MikeSmith> well gosh
  274. # [02:42] <MikeSmith> you've stunned me with that revelation man
  275. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> I was trying to be cute
  276. # [02:43] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: You failed.
  277. # [02:43] <gsnedders> I'm the cute one ;P
  278. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> heh
  279. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> that part's true
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  281. # [02:44] <MikeSmith> anyway, I recognize my yeats… I didn't spend half my university career reading yeats at outdoor cafes just to impress the girls
  282. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> anyway, the thing about Yeats was, his first couple albums were great
  283. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> and his live shows before he got his record deal were way better
  284. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> he used to perform with just a sock on
  285. # [02:45] <MikeSmith> one sock
  286. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> and not on either of his feet
  287. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> a lot of people think the Red Hot Chili Peppers invented that
  288. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> but no, it was Yeats
  289. # [02:46] <MikeSmith> way ahead of his time
  290. # [02:46] * Quits: ojan (~ojan@nat/google/x-bsmswusgkcbbxagu) (Quit: ojan)
  291. # [02:47] <MikeSmith> but then he got into all that prog-rock crap and it was just downhill from there
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  293. # [02:48] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: Wait, reading Yeats doesn't impress girls? Shit, that explains a lot.
  294. # [02:49] <MikeSmith> heh
  295. # [02:49] <MikeSmith> anyway, not sure why I'm telling you this because you obviously know it all already, being that you know enough to quote some of Yeats best lyrics
  296. # [02:51] * Quits: nimbupani (~Adium@c-24-22-131-46.hsd1.wa.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving.)
  297. # [02:51] <gsnedders> MikeSmith: I /do/ have taste!
  298. # [02:52] <MikeSmith> indeed
  299. # [02:52] <MikeSmith> I never had any doubt at all about that
  300. # [02:55] <MikeSmith> but as far as impressing others, well, it's kind of like the old Starkist Tuna commercials: "Sorry, Charlie, but Starkist wants tuna that tastes good, not tuna with good taste."
  301. # [02:56] <benschwarz> ps. MikeSmith, Tokyo in July ;)
  302. # [02:58] <MikeSmith> whoah
  303. # [02:58] <MikeSmith> righteous
  304. # [02:58] <benschwarz> Party time. Looking into apartments already.
  305. # [02:58] <benschwarz> Hopefully we can get something good
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  307. # [02:58] <MikeSmith> yeah
  308. # [02:58] <MikeSmith> last time was epic
  309. # [02:58] <MikeSmith> the police are still looking for you guys
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  313. # [03:01] <MikeSmith> jgraham: btw, you asked me at one time whether the spec-annotation mechanism I set up for the ES5 spec could handle annotations at the sub-section level, and I said no
  314. # [03:01] <MikeSmith> but I lied
  315. # [03:01] <MikeSmith> it can
  316. # [03:01] <MikeSmith> I was looking at http://test.w3.org/html/tests/submission/PhilipTaylor/annotated-spec/canvas.html yesterday
  317. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> testing annos similar to those could be added to http://es5.github.com/ doc if you wanted to
  318. # [03:03] <MikeSmith> I would be happy to help work on setting up a mechanism for making it easier to add them
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  321. # [03:05] <MikeSmith> right now it would be a matter of a manually adding spans in the source with unique IDs, then adjusting the script to recognize those and know what to do with them
  322. # [03:06] <MikeSmith> actually, I don't see any way to get around the manually-adding-of-the-IDs part
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  457. # [10:58] * annevk is watching They Were There as pointed out by Gruber, in WebM
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  463. # [11:20] <Ms2ger> http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker: HTML5 Tracker or HTML Tracker?
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  465. # [11:21] <annevk> Web Applications 1.0 tracker really
  466. # [11:21] <annevk> but that is a long word
  467. # [11:21] <annevk> multiple words even :)
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  487. # [12:23] <annevk> just looked at blog stats again
  488. # [12:23] <annevk> although more people came from reddit than any other location (apart from direct) they also stayed about half the time the other visitors did
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  499. # [12:56] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Hmm, it doesn't sound like that will work well for the HTML5 spec, or at least having to manually add all the spans seems like an enormous pain with the spec changing all the time
  500. # [13:07] <annevk> I just realized that in my Formal Objection case the Director was probably Judy Brewer...
  501. # [13:10] * Joins: temp01 (~temp01@unaffiliated/temp01)
  502. # [13:10] <annevk> Is there a better link for W3C Domain Leads then http://www.w3.org/People/domain ?
  503. # [13:12] <annevk> hmm,I am probably wrong
  504. # [13:12] <annevk> never mind
  505. # [13:26] <hsivonen> http://blog.whatwg.org/webm-html5-org I announced webm.html5.org
  506. # [13:27] <annevk> I changed IRC channel to point to the Wiki page
  507. # [13:28] <annevk> i.e. added a link
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  509. # [13:29] <hsivonen> annevk: thanks
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  512. # [13:44] <Rik`> hsivonen: it kind of looks like whatwg is endorsing webm, no?
  513. # [13:44] <annevk> some of us are
  514. # [13:46] <Rik`> the outside world thinks whatwg is one entity with one opinion
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  516. # [13:47] <hsivonen> Rik`: well, Hixie has been pretty liberal about what can be posted on the blog
  517. # [13:47] <Rik`> fair enough :)
  518. # [13:47] <Rik`> hsivonen: what about translations ?
  519. # [13:47] <hsivonen> Rik`: does it look like whatwg endorses the V.nu parser when I announce updates there?
  520. # [13:47] <Rik`> I'm willing to do the French one
  521. # [13:47] <annevk> Rik`, we have posted translations in the past on the blog
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  523. # [13:48] <Rik`> I meant translation of webm.html5.org :)
  524. # [13:48] <Rik`> hsivonen: V.nu parser is a technical stuff, not highly sensible like the webm/h264 stuff
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  526. # [13:49] <hsivonen> Rik`: A translation under the MIT license is welcome if you also figure out how to integrate it into the sniffer script in a maintainable way
  527. # [13:49] <hsivonen> Rik`: ITYM "sensitive" :-)
  528. # [13:50] <hsivonen> Rik`: hmm. actually, I think as long as the number of translations is small, I could update two copies of the sniffer with different UI strings
  529. # [13:51] <hsivonen> so maybe the script maintainability thing doesn't need to be solved while there's just English and French
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  532. # [14:02] <annevk> http://annevankesteren.nl/2011/01/wai-aria-objection in case anyone cares
  533. # [14:02] <karlcow> http://adamcecc.blogspot.com/2011/01/javascript.html
  534. # [14:05] <Ms2ger> "Henri Sivonen just recently landed a brand new HTML 5 parsing engine in Gecko"
  535. # [14:07] <hsivonen> Ms2ger: source?
  536. # [14:07] <Ms2ger> http://www.google.com/buzz/ianbicking/2SDGH7NJGgJ/HTML-5-Parsing-John-Resig
  537. # [14:07] <Steve^> karlcow, that is insane - in a cool way
  538. # [14:09] <annevk> Ms2ger, which in turn is a copy of http://ejohn.org/blog/html-5-parsing/
  539. # [14:09] <annevk> Posted: July 7th, 2009
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  541. # [14:19] <Rik`> hsivonen: is there a repository somewhere for webm.h.o ?
  542. # [14:21] * Joins: erlehmann (~erlehmann@95-89-41-39-dynip.superkabel.de)
  543. # [14:22] <hsivonen> Rik`: no repo. this is a very unprofessional operation
  544. # [14:23] <karlcow> http://www.readwriteweb.com/start/2011/01/the-valley-lacks-flexibility-not-talent.php
  545. # [14:27] <hsivonen> Philip`: have you investigating CFF subsetting? Is lack of CFF support in your subsetter just a matter of "not done yet" or is it particularly hard?
  546. # [14:27] <hsivonen> s/investigating/investigated/
  547. # [14:27] * hsivonen is typing faster than thinking
  548. # [14:31] <Philip`> hsivonen: I used the Font::TTF library for reading/writing fonts and it doesn't support the CFF table at all, so it'd be necessary to implement that (or at least enough of it to delete and renumber glyphs)
  549. # [14:32] <Philip`> I don't think that's inherently hard, but it'd take a lot of specification-reading and testing
  550. # [14:33] <Philip`> (I haven't looked at the spec in much detail though)
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  552. # [14:36] <hsivonen> Philip`: ok
  553. # [14:39] <vrs> karlcow: awesome
  554. # [14:40] <vrs> found this in the comments: http://sla.ckers.org/forum/read.php?24,33349,33405 http://discogscounter.getfreehosting.co.uk/js-noalnum_com.php
  555. # [14:40] <Philip`> Originally I wanted fonts to work in all browsers, and IE didn't support CFF in EOT (though flipping a single conditional instruction in a DLL file seemed to make it work perfectly fine), so I was just focused on TrueType outlines instead
  556. # [14:43] <annevk> http://www.infosyncworld.com/reviews/cell-phones/opera-software-whatwg-support/11716.html euh ok
  557. # [14:45] <annevk> i wonder how people who write stuff like that get paid
  558. # [14:45] <karlcow> because they write stuff like that.
  559. # [14:46] <Philip`> Because people read stuff like that
  560. # [14:47] <karlcow> chicken and egg
  561. # [14:47] <Philip`> Egg
  562. # [14:47] <karlcow> http://no.linkedin.com/pub/sindre-lia/0/392/59
  563. # [14:48] <Philip`> (Chickens weren't the first animals to lay eggs)
  564. # [14:48] <karlcow> snake and egg ? :p
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  569. # [15:08] <hsivonen> maybe webm.html5.org should have the UI strings in a separate .js file that could vary by UI language
  570. # [15:11] <Philip`> Maybe it'd be better for the language to be chosen by the site that links users to webm.html5.org
  571. # [15:11] <Philip`> since that site must know what language the user understands (else the user wouldn't be on that site)
  572. # [15:12] <Philip`> and that'd probably safer than the webm site trying to guess the appropriate language itself
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  575. # [15:14] <hsivonen> Philip`: oh, I'd expect the linker to link to a particular language
  576. # [15:15] <hsivonen> Philip`: but still, it seems to me that putting strings into a per-language .js file would be the simplest way to vary the strings
  577. # [15:16] <Philip`> Is there any desire to support users with scripting disabled?
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  579. # [15:16] <hsivonen> Philip`: some; see the source of the page
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  581. # [15:17] <annevk> hsivonen, can't you use some PHP module for translations?
  582. # [15:17] <hsivonen> annevk: no idea
  583. # [15:17] <Philip`> Sounds like you'd need some server-side templating to replace the no-script strings at least
  584. # [15:17] <hsivonen> maybe
  585. # [15:17] <annevk> hsivonen, so you can have some kind of translation files
  586. # [15:18] <Philip`> and then it's probably easiest to use that for the scripted strings too
  587. # [15:18] <hsivonen> i18n complicates as simple hack very quickly. :-(
  588. # [15:20] <Philip`> You could leave it English-only and wait and see if it becomes popular enough to jusify the extra effort
  589. # [15:20] <hsivonen> Philip`: it sucks to turn away people when they volunteer to translate *right now*
  590. # [15:22] <Philip`> Are they volunteering to keep the translations up-to-date when you modify the original text over the next few days/weeks/months?
  591. # [15:23] <hsivonen> Philip`: dunno. For French, I could do simple translation updates myself. For Dutch, I couldn't.
  592. # [15:23] * Philip` is sometimes scared of accepting translations since he imagines they'll discourage him from making improvements to the versions that he can maintain
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  594. # [15:24] <Philip`> (and I never like marking anything as a final unchanging version)
  595. # [15:24] * Philip` would like to learn how to get over those fears
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  597. # [15:26] <annevk> just add a warning sign on top of those outdated versions
  598. # [15:27] <annevk> someone might help you fix it
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  607. # [15:45] <Dashiva> Dear twitter, I know what a retweet is, please stop telling me.
  608. # [15:46] <annevk> Might have more effect if you do that on twitter using @twitter
  609. # [15:47] <Dashiva> I'm really just fishing for someone to tell me there's an obvious way to disable it :P
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  611. # [15:48] <annevk> You mean you do not want see retweets from other people?
  612. # [15:50] <Dashiva> No, I just don't want the popup telling me what a retweet is
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  614. # [16:12] <Dashiva> Haha
  615. # [16:13] <Dashiva> I did a search for @twitter to see if anyone was doing what annevk suggested, and there are lots of people complaining about twitter removing a hashtag from trending topics
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  617. # [16:23] <jgraham> Oooh Ian Bicking works for Mozilla now? When did that happen?
  618. # [16:24] * jgraham is obviously not keeping up
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  621. # [16:35] <annevk> http://blog.ianbicking.org/2010/03/10/joining-mozilla/
  622. # [16:36] <annevk> Why is Internet Explorer so bad when Content-Length is not provided over HTTP?
  623. # [16:39] <annevk> Hmm, there might be something else going on...
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  630. # [17:02] <rubys> hsivonen: ping?
  631. # [17:04] <rubys> My suggestion for http://webm.html5.org/ : focus on describing webm; leave out the gratuitous statement about H.264.
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  642. # [17:21] <annevk> http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20029143-264.html
  643. # [17:22] <annevk> "We submitted the VP8 bitstream reference as an IETF Independent RFC [request for comments] to create a canonical public reference for the document," Google said. "This is independent from a standards track."
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  648. # [17:27] <Dashiva> annevk: Can we have a prettier font on webm.html5.org? :)
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  653. # [17:33] <annevk> Dashiva, suggest one to hsivonen
  654. # [17:33] <annevk> hsivonen, maybe you should put it on bitbucket or some such
  655. # [17:33] <annevk> hsivonen, so people can provide patches
  656. # [17:34] <hsivonen> annevk: I'll put it on bitbucket but not today
  657. # [17:35] <hsivonen> Dashiva: yes we can if someone other than me takes care of design and testing
  658. # [17:35] <hsivonen> I can pony up the cash for a TypeKit account if that's needed
  659. # [17:36] <hsivonen> the Museo font looks particularly nice even on IE6
  660. # [17:37] <hsivonen> hmm. rubys left already
  661. # [17:37] <hsivonen> anyway, the sentence about H.264 is there to give an explanation why the "royalty-free" bit is rather central
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  667. # [17:40] <espadrine> hsivonen: do you think we could have something like a "ie9 should have built-in support of webm" petition on the website?
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  669. # [17:41] <hsivonen> espadrine: no, I think that doesn't fit the purpose of the site
  670. # [17:42] <espadrine> you're probably right.
  671. # [17:42] <hsivonen> espadrine: the purpose of the site is to be a vendor-neutral destination that sites that use WebM can link to
  672. # [17:42] * karlcow just discovered ##opera channel
  673. # [17:42] <hsivonen> espadrine: once Google publishes a WebM decoder for Media Foundation, I intend to suggest that as the primary WebM-enablement solution to visitors with IE on Vista or Windows 7
  674. # [17:43] <espadrine> good!
  675. # [17:43] <espadrine> Do you know when that is?
  676. # [17:43] <hsivonen> espadrine: I don't
  677. # [17:44] <annevk> hsivonen, I do agree with rubys it is probably better to not mention other formats at all
  678. # [17:45] <hsivonen> annevk: ok
  679. # [17:45] <annevk> hsivonen, negative arguments are best avoided
  680. # [17:45] <hsivonen> annevk, rubys: removed
  681. # [17:46] <hsivonen> annevk: I know. I wanted to give context to the royalty-free bit
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  684. # [17:52] <rubys> annevk said what I meant to say better than I did
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  686. # [17:53] <rubys> I'm pleased to see that statement removed; I don't believe "royalty-free" needs any more context.
  687. # [17:54] <hsivonen> rubys: I believe it hasn't even occurred to most people that a file format could be royalty-bearing.
  688. # [17:54] <rubys> this site does plant that seed in their mind; those that wish to can explore it.
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  690. # [17:55] <rubys> My belief is that you will get more converts if they discover this for themselves than if you preach to them
  691. # [17:56] <rubys> in any case, most readers won't even know what H.264 is, all they will know is that it is free and that their browser is backlevel as it doesn't include support for this format.
  692. # [17:56] <rubys> (and given that it is royalty free, don't have cost as an excuse to not provide the necessary support)
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  718. # [18:49] <annevk> Maciej came up with 5 > 2 as far as I can tell: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20070411#l-411
  719. # [18:49] <annevk> http://blog.whatwg.org/t-shirts and http://five-gt-two.spreadshirt.com/
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  721. # [18:50] <Ms2ger> 5 != 3 is the new 5 > 2
  722. # [18:54] <rubys1> 5 != 3 won't have the same staying power, particularly as the W3C has already updated the FAQ for the logo
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  725. # [18:56] <annevk> And it is far less amusing
  726. # [18:56] <annevk> To me anyway
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  728. # [18:58] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-128-objection-poll/results - "ISSUE-128: Authors should be able to use where can be used - Straw Poll for Objections"
  729. # [18:58] * bga_|away is now known as bga_
  730. # [18:58] <Philip`> I wonder if anyone will file a cunningly-titled issue to exploit that XSS hole
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  732. # [18:59] <rubys1> That bug in that form is frustrating
  733. # [18:59] * rubys1 is now known as rubys
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  735. # [19:00] <Ms2ger> Issue tracking tools will save us as long as we don't mention HTML?
  736. # [19:00] <rubys> I tried a number of different ways to enter that title, but couldn't find one that worked.
  737. # [19:00] <Rik`> hsivonen: tell me if I can translate tonight or if you plan to extract the strings
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  812. # [21:46] <Hixie> anything interesting going on in the land of web standards?
  813. # [21:47] <abarth> Hixie: we're trying to make progress on an XSS mitigation for browsers
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  815. # [21:48] <Hixie> any luck?
  816. # [21:49] <Hixie> i saw the thread, but stopped reading it after it seemed to go nowhere new
  817. # [21:49] <abarth> yeah, the main issue is still the same as last time
  818. # [21:49] <abarth> moz wants to do something complicated
  819. # [21:49] <abarth> i want to do something that targets XSS specifically
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  822. # [21:51] <abarth> hopefully we'll come to an agreement, but otherwise, we'll probably try something experimental in webkit anyway
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  839. # [22:46] <zcorpan> hsivonen: " addParaWithLink("Chromium added WebM support in version 6.0. You need to upgrade. Or if your Chromium is not upgradeable, you may consider ", "installing the latest Chrome", "http://www.google.com/chrome", " instead.");" doesn't have the "to view WebM content"
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  850. # [23:10] <annevk> Hixie, I toyed with ISSUE-125 and ISSUE-126
  851. # [23:11] <annevk> Hixie, I think I agree with you that it is not really worth fighting over
  852. # [23:11] <annevk> Hixie, I hope HTTP will change to make Content-Type somewhat more sane
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  854. # [23:13] <zcorpan> annevk: can javascript: urls ever be something other than text/html?
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  856. # [23:14] <annevk> they can be images in e.g. Gecko if every character is U+00FF or lower I believe
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  859. # [23:14] <annevk> I think that will always result in an octet stream
  860. # [23:14] <annevk> and then it depends on sniffing
  861. # [23:15] <zcorpan> oh
  862. # [23:18] <annevk> anyway, nn
  863. # [23:20] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@5355737B.cm-6-6b.dynamic.ziggo.nl) (Quit: annevk)
  864. # [23:23] * Quits: erlehmann (~erlehmann@95-89-41-39-dynip.superkabel.de) (Quit: Die demokratieerhaltende Whistleblower-Organisation Krautchan freut sich immer über Spenden.)
  865. # [23:28] * Joins: david_carlisle (~davidc@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk)
  866. # [23:33] * Quits: svl (~me@ip565744a7.direct-adsl.nl) (Quit: And back he spurred like a madman, shrieking a curse to the sky.)
  867. # [23:38] * Joins: benschwarz (~ben@59.167.185.148)
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  869. # [23:42] * Joins: _bga (~bga@ppp91-122-51-148.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru)
  870. # [23:43] <foolip_> hmm, maybe I've written enough change proposals for today
  871. # [23:44] * Quits: david_carlisle (~davidc@dcarlisle.demon.co.uk) (Quit: david_carlisle)
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  873. # [23:46] * Quits: ttepasse (~ttepasse@ip-109-90-161-169.unitymediagroup.de) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
  874. # [23:51] * Quits: cying (~cying@c-24-23-135-168.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: cying)
  875. # [23:59] * Quits: aualin (~Mikael@c-89-233-211-62.cust.bredband2.com) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  876. # Session Close: Sun Jan 23 00:00:00 2011

The end :)