/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-04-19 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Apr 19 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  10. # [00:11] <jgraham> Right, Opera, Gecko, WebKit, (IE10?) all have (almost) compliant parsers although they are not really easy to reuse; the Gecko parser (also used in validator.nu) probably has the most potential. html5lib has a python implementation and a less good PHP implementation. It also has some Ruby code that we don't talk about much.
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  12. # [00:12] <jgraham> I'm not sure about other implementations. It would be nice if someone fixed libxml2
  13. # [00:12] <myndzi> there's one that's looking interesting in node
  14. # [00:12] <myndzi> looks pretty clean and thorough
  15. # [00:12] <myndzi> not sure if i can hijack it to my purposes or not yet ;)
  16. # [00:13] <myndzi> jsdom gave me trouble last time i had anything to do with it
  17. # [00:16] <hober> myndzi: aredridel's parser is really nice
  18. # [00:16] <smaug____> jgraham: there is the dom.js parser
  19. # [00:16] <myndzi> yeah, the more i look at it the more i'm like (!)
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  21. # [00:16] <myndzi> this may jsut save me some work :>
  22. # [00:17] <jgraham> Oh yeah, there's at least two javascript implementations!
  23. # [00:17] <smaug____> https://github.com/andreasgal/dom.js/blob/master/src/impl/HTMLParser.js
  24. # [00:17] <jgraham> And hober was going to write one in elisp :p
  25. # [00:17] <smaug____> no idea how good that is
  26. # [00:18] <hober> jgraham: well, i wrote the tokenizer
  27. # [00:18] <hober> jgraham: but stalled out working on the treebuilder
  28. # [00:19] <myndzi> smaug____: lookin like the other one is nicer; this code is beautiful ;)
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  31. # [00:20] <zewt> <arunranga> annevk: won't exactly stop race issues, but can mitigate them.
  32. # [00:20] <zewt> those can be eliminated, it'll just take a bit more work
  33. # [00:20] <myndzi> i was gonna say i wish i could clean all the excess stuff out since there's a bunch i don't need, but it looks like it's going "quite fast enough, thank you very much"
  34. # [00:21] <arunranga> Hi zewt, were you referring to the aftermath of https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16790 ?
  35. # [00:22] <zewt> dunno, firefox is being kicked in the head by the one-page spec at the moment :)
  36. # [00:22] <arunranga> Which one-page are you referring to?
  37. # [00:22] <zewt> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/, the one that everyone fears clicking
  38. # [00:23] <smaug____> it isn't that bad
  39. # [00:23] <gsnedders> jgraham: Unless I'm being stupid here, unicode strings aren't interned in Python 2
  40. # [00:23] * arunranga heh
  41. # [00:23] <Hixie> i haven't had any trouble with the one-page spec for a while
  42. # [00:23] <Hixie> dunno what hardware y'all are using but mine isn't THAT new :-)
  43. # [00:23] <arunranga> I actually kicked the one page spec in the head.
  44. # [00:24] <Hixie> (mid 2009 macbook pro and mid 2010 imac, mainly)
  45. # [00:24] <arunranga> (by adding 4G more RAM)
  46. # [00:24] <Hixie> ah, yeah, low RAM might be a problem
  47. # [00:24] <Hixie> i always try to max out my ram
  48. # [00:24] <gsnedders> Hixie: RAM is the big issue with the spec
  49. # [00:24] <jgraham> gsnedders: Oh, maybe
  50. # [00:25] <arunranga> Life on 8G of RAM makes me happy.
  51. # [00:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: Though looking at this again, I'm doing everything with single-char byte strings
  52. # [00:25] <jgraham> gsnedders: 127 characters should be more than enough for anyone
  53. # [00:25] <zewt> 16gb, still takes a good 7-8 seconds to load (in a sub-500ms web, that's a lifetime :)
  54. # [00:25] <smaug____> loading the spec seems to take about 300MB
  55. # [00:25] <gsnedders> jgraham: In related news, we need to sort out all the strings in html5lib, because we rely upon implicit conversion often
  56. # [00:25] * jernoble is now known as jernoble|afk
  57. # [00:25] <jgraham> Yes
  58. # [00:26] <gsnedders> jgraham: And that conversion time probably costs us in places.
  59. # [00:26] <jgraham> No
  60. # [00:26] <jgraham> I would expect
  61. # [00:26] <jgraham> But we should actually do a python 3 port
  62. # [00:26] <jgraham> so yes, we should fix it
  63. # [00:26] <jgraham> Anyway I should be asleep
  64. # [00:26] <gsnedders> jgraham: entitiesStartingWith was last time I looked by far the slowest thing when parsing the spec
  65. # [00:27] <gsnedders> jgraham: And relies upon implicit conversion
  66. # [00:27] <jgraham> Well if we fix it and it makes us faster then I won't be unhappy
  67. # [00:27] <jgraham> If you fix it and it makes us faster I will be even less unhappy :)
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  71. # [00:32] <gsnedders> jgraham: Yup, the implicit coercion costs us ~0.8s on my fairly high-powered machine
  72. # [00:32] <gsnedders> 17.1 -> 16.3s to parse the spec
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  74. # [00:39] <gsnedders> Pushed.
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  79. # [00:56] * gsnedders concludes that a 10% improvement in parsing the spec is good enough for half an hour of hacking, and heads to bed :)
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  90. # [01:16] <zewt> gsnedders: looks like it's 32 bytes in 32-bit builds ... a lot of extra overhead for excessively large fields in the 64-bit build
  91. # [01:16] <zewt> (python strings)
  92. # [01:18] <gsnedders> zewt: Not that surprising seeming a lot of it is pointers.
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  94. # [01:18] <zewt> more are just integers, actually
  95. # [01:18] * gsnedders is obviously misremembering from looking earlier XD
  96. # [01:19] <zewt> string length (could have a separate "long string" type so regular sub-4gb strings don't pay for a 64-bit field), the hash (which appears to be 64-bit on 64-bit systems; should only be 32), and what appears to be a bitfield for interning (could also be 32-bit)
  97. # [01:19] <zewt> i'll worry about it if i ever decide to involve myself in python core development :)
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  209. # [07:31] <zcorpan> annevk: hi. do you have any good ideas on how to check https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16773#c3 ?
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  213. # [07:36] <annevk> implementing HTML's encoding detection algorithm presumably
  214. # [07:37] <zcorpan> what does that give you?
  215. # [07:37] <annevk> well then you can reliably find all labels
  216. # [07:37] <annevk> if there's conflicts you can do an additional check
  217. # [07:38] <zcorpan> what we want to know (with this data) is whether supporting the label is better or worse than not supporting it
  218. # [07:38] <zcorpan> getting more reliable data might be good but is not what i'm trying to do right now :-)
  219. # [07:38] * Joins: beverloo_ (~beverloo@216.239.45.130)
  220. # [07:39] <Hixie> ship an update to 10% of your users that doesn't recognise the label, and instrument the charset menu to see how many more people on that build look at the charset menu to fix it
  221. # [07:39] <annevk> or decode the text using the two alternatives (stated and what the fallback would have been) and see what generates less U+FFFD
  222. # [07:40] <annevk> oh hey
  223. # [07:40] <zcorpan> i don't think either encoding would produce more U+FFFDs generally
  224. # [07:40] <annevk> the chairs implicitly acknowledged they were doing something weird with the innerHTML issue
  225. # [07:40] <annevk> zcorpan: yeah for single-byte encodings it's not gonna go that well I reckon
  226. # [07:41] <annevk> zcorpan: though for the "sjis" label it should
  227. # [07:41] <annevk> "sjis" or "windows-1252" is a world of difference
  228. # [07:41] <zcorpan> yeah
  229. # [07:43] * Quits: beverloo (~beverloo@c-67-188-232-126.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  230. # [07:43] * beverloo_ is now known as beverloo
  231. # [07:44] <zcorpan> <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1250; no-cashe; no-cache">
  232. # [07:44] * Quits: cpearce (~cpearce@60.234.54.74) (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  233. # [07:44] <annevk> hahahaaha
  234. # [07:44] <annevk> no cash, no cache, deal
  235. # [07:48] <Hixie> annevk: innerHTML issue?
  236. # [07:48] <zcorpan> good news: all cp1250 pages also had a <meta> decl with windows-1250, so it makes no difference as to whether cp1250 is supported (in this data)
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  238. # [07:53] <annevk> Hixie: publishing DOM Parsing & ... through the W3C
  239. # [07:53] <Hixie> ah, yeah, i see
  240. # [07:53] <Hixie> why don't you just make a CG and publish an FSA?
  241. # [07:54] <annevk> because I'm not editing and Ms2ger presumably cares little
  242. # [07:54] <Hixie> fair enough :-)
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  247. # [08:05] * zcorpan realizes he can make the script look for later decls and check what the label is there
  248. # [08:06] <annevk> I should really write a presentation for later today, but I sort of want to hack this HTML encoding detection algorithm in Python :)
  249. # [08:11] <annevk> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/cssom-view/ #css on Freenode with a link to wiki.whatwg.org...
  250. # [08:11] <zcorpan> annevk: what should 'euc-cn' map to?
  251. # [08:12] <annevk> sounds like gbk
  252. # [08:12] <annevk> yeah, per Wikipedia that's gb2312 which is gbk
  253. # [08:13] <zcorpan> thanks
  254. # [08:14] * Quits: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2) (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
  255. # [08:22] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  256. # [08:23] <hsivonen> is gbk not a subset of gb18030? gb2313 is a subset of gb18030, right?
  257. # [08:24] * Joins: Ducki (~Ducki@pD9E39B40.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  258. # [08:25] <annevk> gb2313 is a subset of gbk
  259. # [08:25] <annevk> but in practice they are now treated identically
  260. # [08:25] <annevk> gbk is in turn a subset of gb18030 and these are still treated distinct, though some people think we should merge them too
  261. # [08:26] <annevk> why does IE not load a data URL like data:text/html;charset=utf-8,%F8%80%80%80%80
  262. # [08:27] <annevk> hmm
  263. # [08:27] * Quits: rniwa (~rniwa@70-89-66-218-ca.sfba.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: rniwa)
  264. # [08:28] <annevk> zcorpan: why did you make HTML handle five and six byte sequences of utf-8 per old utf-8 rather than per new utf-8
  265. # [08:29] <annevk> zcorpan: both WebKit and Trident give 5 U+FFFD for F8 80 80 80 80 80 rather than 1 which is correct per Unicode
  266. # [08:30] <hsivonen> meanwhile on xml-dev: reinventing one of the most failed part of the XML ecosystem: http://lists.xml.org/archives/xml-dev/201204/msg00023.html
  267. # [08:30] <hsivonen> *parts
  268. # [08:32] * Joins: maikmerten (~merten@ls5dhcp200.cs.uni-dortmund.de)
  269. # [08:32] <annevk> are you subscribed?
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  272. # [08:40] <hsivonen> annevk: yes
  273. # [08:51] <annevk> Hixie: you just followed zcorpan for utf-8 error handling right?
  274. # [08:53] <Hixie> i do not recall
  275. # [08:53] <annevk> k
  276. # [08:55] <Hixie> hey are there any other specs available under free licenses that i can get local snapshots of? it would make it easier for me to grep for things... here's what i have so far: http://damowmow.com/temp/free-specs/
  277. # [08:55] * Joins: crodjer (~rohanjain@ec2-122-248-226-254.ap-southeast-1.compute.amazonaws.com)
  278. # [08:56] <annevk> found https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=9663
  279. # [08:56] <annevk> okay, so I'll file bugs on Opera/Gecko to fix their utf-8 decoder
  280. # [08:56] <annevk> and fix it in the Encoding standard
  281. # [08:56] * Joins: Obvious (tachikoma@188.226.74.2)
  282. # [08:57] <Hixie> anyone else use trello btw? i've been playing with it as a way to organise bugs in small projects and it's really quite neat
  283. # [08:57] <Hixie> couldn't handle a load like HTML or a browser, but for small games and stuff it's great
  284. # [08:58] * heycam is now known as heycam|away
  285. # [09:05] <annevk> what's the component in Gecko Core for utf-8 bugs?
  286. # [09:07] <annevk> I'm going with i18n
  287. # [09:10] <annevk> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=746900
  288. # [09:11] <annevk> finding utf-8 decoder bugs in 2012, teehee
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  296. # [09:28] <nesta_> good day ;)
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  298. # [09:31] <annevk> hsivonen: I have filed no such bug at least
  299. # [09:31] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  300. # [09:35] <hsivonen> annevk: maybe I should file one
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  302. # [10:07] <zcorpan> annevk: dunno, maybe it matched opera when i tested
  303. # [10:09] <jgraham> hsivonen: What is the current state of the spec wrt about:blank?
  304. # [10:09] <annevk> zcorpan: k, filed a bug on Opera and Gecko to fix their utf-8 decoder
  305. # [10:09] <jgraham> i.e. does it match what you think needs to be implemented
  306. # [10:09] <jgraham> ?
  307. # [10:09] <jgraham> Or what you have|plan to implement in Gecko?
  308. # [10:10] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.5.c.fiberdirekt.net)
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  314. # [10:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: my plan is still what I described at http://hsivonen.iki.fi/about-blank/
  315. # [10:18] <hsivonen> jgraham: I don't expect the spec to match currently
  316. # [10:20] <jgraham> hsivonen: Is there a bug open?
  317. # [10:21] * Joins: Von_Davidicus (~IceChat7@173.210.203.196)
  318. # [10:22] <Von_Davidicus> Hello, all.
  319. # [10:24] <hsivonen> jgraham: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=543435
  320. # [10:27] <jgraham> hsivonen: Thanks. I was thinking of a W3C bug that I could ask Hixie to look at soon :)
  321. # [10:27] <jgraham> (but that is helpful too)
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  323. # [10:29] * Quits: nattokirai (~nattokira@rtr.mozilla.or.jp) (Quit: nattokirai)
  324. # [10:32] <hsivonen> jgraham: my patches have rotted quite a bit since last summer, so lately, I've mainly been focusing on making readyState less broken in Gecko
  325. # [10:32] <hsivonen> because it's hard to get readyState right for about:blank if readyState in general is bogus
  326. # [10:39] <jgraham> Sounds reasonable
  327. # [10:40] <annevk> zcorpan: fwiw, not sure I'll get much more work done today on labels or anything really
  328. # [10:40] <annevk> zcorpan: I'm planning to write a presentation on bytes/code points, and how they fuck you up when using <form>, XMLHttpRequest, and URLs, unless you use utf-8 that is
  329. # [10:41] <annevk> and I guess I might mention 16-bitness of ECMAScript
  330. # [10:41] <annevk> given all the trendy emoji stuff
  331. # [10:45] <zcorpan> annevk: k
  332. # [10:46] <jgraham> Pretty sure that a trendy presentation these days would just have one emoji on each slide, and you would shout the name of the emoji at the audience over and over before moving on to the next slide
  333. # [10:46] <zcorpan> having old data is annoying because many pages have changed or disappeared :-(
  334. # [10:48] <annevk> jgraham: I can probably go on for half an hour explaining the story behind 💩 and why its string length is 2
  335. # [10:48] <annevk> :p
  336. # [10:50] <jgraham> (which codepoint was that?)
  337. # [10:51] <zcorpan> http://www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1f4a9/index.htm
  338. # [10:52] <jgraham> Oh, the obvious one
  339. # [10:52] <kennyluck> U+1F4A9 PILE OF POO lol, what's the story behind it?
  340. # [10:53] <jgraham> I just have visions of annevk standing at the front of a packed audience and saying "pile of poo" first in a calm voice and then in an increasingly irate voice
  341. # [10:53] <jgraham> For some minutes
  342. # [10:53] <jgraham> Possibly my internal sense of humor is wonky though :)
  343. # [10:54] <tomasf> http://xn--ls8h.la/
  344. # [10:57] <jgraham> Or possibly it was just reading http://westcoastlogic.com/slides/debug-mobile/#/ that left me with the idea that being shouty is fashionable
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  360. # [11:22] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: a while back you said you were planning to land the VerifierCommandLine code from the pfalcon bitbucket fork. Still planning on doing that?
  361. # [11:22] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: planning, yes, doing, evidently not quickly :-(
  362. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> OK
  363. # [11:23] <MikeSmith> I also have some changes to suggest for that
  364. # [11:23] * Parts: skimmas (~skimmas@bl22-83-156.dsl.telepac.pt)
  365. # [11:24] <MikeSmith> after it's landed
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  373. # [12:14] <zcorpan> jgraham: i've never seen slides so full of memes as that
  374. # [12:29] <jgraham> Yeah memes are the new meme
  375. # [12:30] * Joins: Lachy (~Lachy@cm-84.215.193.30.getinternet.no)
  376. # [12:30] <AryehGregor> Someone has finally granted review to my first batch of transforms tests.
  377. # [12:30] <AryehGregor> Unfortunately, that means I have to work on submitting all the rest. :(
  378. # [12:30] <jgraham> At W3C?
  379. # [12:30] <AryehGregor> Yes.
  380. # [12:31] <jgraham> Nice!
  381. # [12:31] <hsivonen> jgraham: looks like profanity is still OK on presentations slides
  382. # [12:32] * Parts: annevk (~annevk@a82-161-179-17.adsl.xs4all.nl)
  383. # [12:36] <jgraham> hsivonen: I'm not sure I find profanity very offensive (when it isn't being used in a way intended to cause offense), so I'm not sure I am the best person to decide whether that should be socially unacceptable or not. I wouldn't do it myself for sure. Maybe one could argue it is associated with the sort of macho culture that I sometimes percieve exists in part of the web dev community. And if that culture exists I would argue it is a bad thing, so…
  384. # [12:40] * Quits: niloy (~niloy@61.12.96.242) (Remote host closed the connection)
  385. # [12:40] <hsivonen> hmm. I get a feeling that Gecko might be accidentally setting readyState to "complete" and firing the load event in cases where it wasn't originally supposed to
  386. # [12:41] <hsivonen> brittle code is brittle
  387. # [12:41] <hsivonen> especially without fatal assertions and proper test cases
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  391. # [13:10] <Velmont> hsivonen: Where? There's thousand readyStates :P
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  396. # [13:16] <AryehGregor> Hmm. I seem not to be able to access the US. I think Europe works . . .
  397. # [13:16] <hsivonen> Velmont: e.g. in the case where an XSLT transform fails because the XSLT transform fails to compile
  398. # [13:17] <AryehGregor> Yay for DVCSes, I gues.
  399. # [13:17] <AryehGregor> Yay for DVCSes, I guess.
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  407. # [13:42] <AryehGregor> So, WebKit used to output class="Apple-style-span" everywhere. Spec dilemma: should we special-case the class given the amount of content that uses it?
  408. # [13:42] <AryehGregor> (probably substantial)
  409. # [13:42] <AryehGregor> If we didn't, it would leave <span class="Apple-style-span"> lying around . . . is that less bad?
  410. # [13:42] <AryehGregor> It doesn't affect rendering.
  411. # [13:42] <AryehGregor> I doubt WebKit will follow the spec if it doesn't special-case Apple-style-span . . .
  412. # [13:43] * AryehGregor supposes it's better to special-case it, sigh
  413. # [13:44] <AryehGregor> (recent WebKit no longer emits that class, thankfully)
  414. # [13:44] <AryehGregor> (but still special-cases it for removal)
  415. # [13:45] <gsnedders> AryehGregor: removes it where/when?
  416. # [13:46] <AryehGregor> gsnedders, if you have <span class="x" style="color:red">foo</span>bar and make it green, WebKit produces <span style="color: green"><span class="x">foo</span>bar</span>. If the class is "Apple-style-span", instead you get just <span style="color: green">foobar</span>.
  417. # [13:46] <AryehGregor> The richtext2 test suite tests for this.
  418. # [13:46] <AryehGregor> And realistically, it is better to remove it in that case.
  419. # [13:46] <AryehGregor> It's just ugly to write that in a spec.
  420. # [13:47] <AryehGregor> Sadly, WebKit tends to be extremely reluctant to degrade their behavior slightly in order to match other browsers, even when it would be much uglier or more annoying for the other browsers to change. :(
  421. # [13:48] <zcorpan> that doesn't mean other browsers are willing to implement special cases for Apple-style-span just to be compatible with webkit :-)
  422. # [13:48] <AryehGregor> The question is what I should spec and implement.
  423. # [13:48] <zcorpan> does special-casing the class gain web compat?
  424. # [13:49] <zcorpan> if not, i see little reason to special-case it in opera
  425. # [13:49] <AryehGregor> In the sense of pages not breaking, no.
  426. # [13:49] <AryehGregor> Noted.
  427. # [13:49] <AryehGregor> I'm ambivalent.
  428. # [13:49] <AryehGregor> So I'll push the call off to ehsan.
  429. # [13:49] <AryehGregor> :)
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  431. # [13:51] <AryehGregor> The only reason to do it is for richtext2, honestly.
  432. # [13:51] <AryehGregor> So I think I'll say to heck with richtext2, they should change.
  433. # [13:54] <zcorpan> hsivonen: doesn't the escape key abort document load in IE?
  434. # [13:57] <hsivonen> zcorpan: maybe, but that's not a Web-exposed API
  435. # [13:58] * Joins: erichynds (~ehynds@64.206.121.41)
  436. # [13:59] <zcorpan> use Watir :-)
  437. # [13:59] <hsivonen> looks like I need to write test cases in order to figure this stuff out. sigh.
  438. # [14:00] <hsivonen> and here I thought fixing readyState was a quick step that'd make fixing about:blank easier
  439. # [14:03] <hsivonen> there has to be a Laundry Room Viking meme in here somewhere
  440. # [14:05] <Philip`> jgraham: I find the bigger problem with the profanity is that it drives out any attempts to analyse the problems rationally - shouting disparaging remarks about some technology is seen as a viable substitute for understanding it, and images of angry people are a substitute for facts and data
  441. # [14:07] <Philip`> Even if the presenter fully understands what they're complaining about, the point of giving a presentation is that you're largely presenting to people who don't understand that area yet, and they'll end up remembering the emotion without gaining any of the understanding
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  443. # [14:19] <hsivonen> aargh. why don't DOMContentLoaded and readystatechange propagate to the host iframe element like load?
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  445. # [14:19] * gwicke_away is now known as gwicke
  446. # [14:25] <smaug____> hsivonen: load doesn't propagate to the host iframe
  447. # [14:25] <smaug____> it is a separate load event for iframe
  448. # [14:29] <hsivonen> smaug____: ok. interesting
  449. # [14:31] <hsivonen> smaug____: is there a race condition-free way to observe the load, DOMContentLoaded and readychange events happening inside an iframe from the parent?
  450. # [14:32] <hsivonen> If I set them on .contentWindow and then navigate the iframe, it seems the navigation blows away the listeners
  451. # [14:32] <smaug____> if the docs are same origin, I guess the iframe could call some method in the parent
  452. # [14:33] <hsivonen> smaug____: ok, so the child needs to participate
  453. # [14:33] <hsivonen> that won't work for loading XSLT error documents into the iframe
  454. # [14:33] <smaug____> afaik, yes
  455. # [14:33] <hsivonen> the design of this platform is unfortunate
  456. # [14:34] <smaug____> hey, it is the Web. don't expect too much :)
  457. # [14:35] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120418#l-1104 hmm, i had hoped we could get away with dropping one of the tables...
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  469. # [14:55] <annevk> hello again, anyone got a visible newline character for source code?
  470. # [14:55] <annevk> I'm having bad luck googling one
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  472. # [14:57] <zcorpan> v.nu uses ↩
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  474. # [14:58] <annevk> thanks
  475. # [15:01] * gsnedders pushes another perf optimization to html5lib, 16% quicker than 24 hours ago parsing the spec.
  476. # [15:01] <gsnedders> (In CPython 2.7.2)
  477. # [15:03] <annevk> madman
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  481. # [15:18] <annevk> gsnedders: do you have a few minutes?
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  485. # [15:23] <annevk> seems gsnedders is not around, can anyone else review a few slides?
  486. # [15:23] <annevk> oh
  487. # [15:23] <annevk> maybe he is
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  489. # [15:33] <hsivonen> hooray. we don't even have interop at the simplest baseline: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/readystate/baseline.html
  490. # [15:34] <AryehGregor> Reformatting by shell script, the hard way! for FILE in ref-*/*.html; do echo -e ':set shiftwidth=2 expandtab\ngg=G:wq' | vim $FILE; done
  491. # [15:34] <hsivonen> Opera doesn't fire readystatechange for the transition to "interactive"
  492. # [15:34] * AryehGregor thinks this will take a while
  493. # [15:36] <hsivonen> whoa! IE10 doesn't fire readystatechange to "interactive", either
  494. # [15:38] <hsivonen> hmm. IE9 won't start. should have snapshotted the VM more often...
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  496. # [15:40] <jgraham> hsivonen: Seems like a clear bug in IE/Opera unless we know of a web-compat reason for the existing behaviour
  497. # [15:41] <hsivonen> wild. in IE9 and IE10, readyState is already "interactive" when the listeners get attached
  498. # [15:41] <hsivonen> so that's why IE9 and IE10 don't fire a readystatechange
  499. # [15:42] <jgraham> Isn't teh about:blank case something far away from the baseline?
  500. # [15:42] <hsivonen> in other news, WebKit and Trident don't support DOMFrameContentLoaded
  501. # [15:42] <jgraham> What happens if you just do it in the top level browsing context?
  502. # [15:42] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes. that's why the baseline loads baseline-inner.html via HTTP
  503. # [15:43] <jgraham> Oh, right I misread the test
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  506. # [15:47] <hsivonen> ok. "interactive" in IE is weird
  507. # [15:47] <hsivonen> jgraham: without iframe: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/readystate/without-iframe.html
  508. # [15:48] <hsivonen> says "interactive" in IE10 when attaching listeners
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  510. # [15:49] <hsivonen> I wonder if IE sets readyState to interactive when it has consumed the network stream even though the parser is not supposed to have seen the whole stream yet
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  516. # [15:58] <hsivonen> OK. IE is really weird about not doing incremental rendering: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/slow.php
  517. # [15:58] <hsivonen> how slow does a page have to be to get incremental rendering in IE?
  518. # [15:58] <hsivonen> I feel I'm failing. I can't even establish the baseline in IE
  519. # [16:04] <jgraham> Opera also gets the order of events wrong
  520. # [16:05] * jgraham has convereted the simple TC to a testharness.js test
  521. # [16:05] <jgraham> So I will get Opera fixed :)
  522. # [16:05] <jgraham> s/TC/demo/
  523. # [16:07] <hsivonen> slow.php above does get an incremental treament in IE6
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  528. # [16:16] <hsivonen> I guess I have to write a shim around attachEvent if I want the tests to work in IE6...
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  530. # [16:21] <hsivonen> jgraham: http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/readystate/without-iframe.html changes upon reload in Opera Next
  531. # [16:22] <hsivonen> jgraham: says DOMContentLoaded; readyState: complete on reload
  532. # [16:22] <hsivonen> I guess Gecko isn't the only engine with very sad and broken readyState
  533. # [16:24] <hsivonen> why isn't my code working in IE6?
  534. # [16:24] <hsivonen> no script errors
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  536. # [16:25] <jgraham> hsivonen: Oh man, that's sad
  537. # [16:25] <jgraham> Thanks
  538. # [16:26] <hsivonen> You're welcome
  539. # [16:31] <hsivonen> well, *this* is bizarre. In IE8, http://hsivonen.iki.fi/test/moz/readystate/without-iframe-slow.php is parsed incrementally, but it still says "interactive" when attaching event handlers
  540. # [16:32] <hsivonen> so when does *any* version of IE say "loading"?
  541. # [16:36] <hsivonen> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ie/ms534359%28v=vs.85%29.aspx says there's a "loaded" state
  542. # [16:37] <kennyluck> foolip, do you have any idea about how to move forward with big5? Conclude that big5-hkscs is the best we can do? Add some big5-2003 mappings to big5-hkscs?
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  570. # [17:16] <miketaylr> hsivonen: not sure how relevant this is to what you're working on, but it came up the other day in jQuery https://github.com/jquery/jquery/pull/736/files#L1R15
  571. # [17:17] * Joins: beverloo (~beverloo@c-67-188-232-126.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  572. # [17:18] <jgraham> Yeah Opera seems to be Just Wrong there
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  575. # [17:19] <miketaylr> ™
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  578. # [17:32] <wilhelm> This algorithm is wonderful: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webdriver/raw-file/tip/webdriver-spec.html#rendering-text
  579. # [17:33] <jgraham> wilhelm: Don't reference DOM3 Core!
  580. # [17:33] <wilhelm> jgraham: Use DOM4 instead?
  581. # [17:34] <jgraham> YEs
  582. # [17:34] <wilhelm> Oh, it's even in /tr/.
  583. # [17:34] <jgraham> s/E/e/
  584. # [17:34] <Hixie> lordy, don't reference the TR/ version
  585. # [17:34] <wilhelm> (c:
  586. # [17:34] <Hixie> that's perennially out of date
  587. # [17:34] <wilhelm> Noted.
  588. # [17:35] <jgraham> It helps if you imagine that TR stands for "Toally Wrong"
  589. # [17:35] <jgraham> *Totally
  590. # [17:35] <Hixie> "Temporally Relegated"
  591. # [17:36] <jgraham> If you're going for that, Retarded would be better than Relegated, I think
  592. # [17:36] * Joins: ehsan (~ehsan@66.207.208.98)
  593. # [17:37] <Hixie> "retarded" unfortunately has implications that are offensive to some
  594. # [17:37] <wilhelm> jgraham: More input in the same genre would be very helpful. Feel free to skim the rest of the draft. (c:
  595. # [17:37] <jgraham> Yeah :(
  596. # [17:37] <Hixie> so i tend to avoid the word entirely
  597. # [17:37] <Hixie> relgated is actually pretty apt, though
  598. # [17:37] <Hixie> relegated
  599. # [17:37] <hober> rel=gated?
  600. # [17:37] <jgraham> Retarded is used a lot in physics though
  601. # [17:38] <jgraham> In a non-offensive way
  602. # [17:39] <Hixie> yeah
  603. # [17:39] <Philip`> "Tired Relics"
  604. # [17:40] <jgraham> (e.g. "retarded waves" in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeler–Feynman_absorber_theory )
  605. # [17:40] <Hixie> the thing about TR/ is it's not necessarily so out of date that "Totally Wrong" or "Relic" would be completely fair
  606. # [17:40] <Hixie> it's usually only a few months out of date -- just enough to be a terrible choice for implementors, but not enough to be so obviously wrong that people naturally avoid it
  607. # [17:40] <Hixie> e.g. the way they typically avoid HTML4
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  609. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> zcorpan, that sure would be nice...
  610. # [17:45] <Ms2ger> Does Opera have mode-specific tables too?
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  613. # [17:58] <Hixie> hsivonen: document.open() also calls the abort stuff according to the spec, fwiw
  614. # [18:00] <Hixie> hsivonen: also you may be able to test IE by hitting Escape to stop it
  615. # [18:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: Does window.stop() actually call abort?
  616. # [18:01] <jgraham> er, Hixie ^]
  617. # [18:01] <Hixie> not per spec, but who knows about reality
  618. # [18:01] <Hixie> i was surprised to find i'd specced it at all :-)
  619. # [18:02] <jgraham> I was kind of hoping that the spec might bear some resembelance to reality here
  620. # [18:02] <jgraham> :)
  621. # [18:02] <Hixie> i'm happy to assume the spec is reality until proved otherwise :-)
  622. # [18:02] <jgraham> FWIW it's very unclear to me what "cancel that navigation" entails
  623. # [18:02] <jgraham> Is that defined anywhere?
  624. # [18:03] <jgraham> (I thought I filed a bug about this but it seems to have got lost)
  625. # [18:03] <Hixie> not explicitly. i intended it to mean you just stop the algorithm wherever you are in it
  626. # [18:03] <Hixie> feel free to file another using the thing in the spec
  627. # [18:03] <Hixie> duplicates are very low-cost
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  631. # [18:09] <jgraham> Hixie: So apart from not firing an abort event why wouldn't window.stop() be just like running the abort algorithm?
  632. # [18:10] <Hixie> it probably predates my writing the abort algorithm
  633. # [18:10] <jgraham> OK
  634. # [18:11] <jgraham> The abort algorithm looks reassuringly explicit about several things that window.stop ignores :)
  635. # [18:11] <Hixie> :-)
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  641. # [18:14] <Ms2ger> jgraham, and is it correct? :)
  642. # [18:15] <jgraham> Ms2ger: No idea :)
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  645. # [18:16] <jgraham> Something that is explicitly wrong is easier to work with than something that is vaugely right
  646. # [18:16] <tantek> jgraham - is that a justification for religion over fuzzy science? ;)
  647. # [18:17] <Ms2ger> tantek, or astrophysics over fuzzy science? :)
  648. # [18:17] <tantek> astrology over astronomy?
  649. # [18:18] <Ms2ger> jgraham, did you say something about a testharness.js test you were going to submit? :)
  650. # [18:18] <jgraham> tantek: I'm not sure that religious people regard themselves as explicitly wrong :)
  651. # [18:19] <jgraham> But it is a justification that a scientific theory that makes an explicit, but incorrect, prediction is more valuable than a fuzzy notion that can be made to fit multiple sets of empirical findings
  652. # [18:19] <tantek> jgraham - those of each religion regard the others as explicitly wrong ;)
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  654. # [18:21] <tantek> I'm not sure how valuable explicit but wrong scientific theories are, as there is no shortage of them in the space of ideas. That being said, documenting them can help reduce wasting time re-discussing them. of course that doesn't stop it from happening (on nearly every standards mailing list).
  655. # [18:21] <jgraham> They are very valuable. Of course you typically don't know they are wrong until later
  656. # [18:22] <jgraham> But without a theory that makes precise predictions you can't design an experiemnt that will test them
  657. # [18:23] <jgraham> Ms2ger: All in good time :)
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  659. # [18:25] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  660. # [18:28] * jernoble|afk is now known as jernoble
  661. # [18:33] <Ms2ger> Good, dglazkov
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  664. # [18:39] <Hixie> +1 to precise testable statements being more valuable, even if wrong, than vague statements that can be made to fit almost any data
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  699. # [20:06] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: somebody needs to just make an executive decision. I vote for you
  700. # [20:06] <kennyluck> MikeSmith, huh?
  701. # [20:07] <MikeSmith> "do you have any idea about how to move forward with big5? Conclude that big5-hkscs is the best we can do? Add some big5-2003 mappings to big5-hkscs?"
  702. # [20:08] <kennyluck> MikeSmith, oh… I have no idea... In fact I care very little about this :p
  703. # [20:08] <MikeSmith> and I care far less than you do
  704. # [20:08] <MikeSmith> especially since most sites in china are about how to pirate software anway
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  707. # [20:09] <kennyluck> MikeSmith, I believe most sites related to piracy have all changed to use utf-8 for business reasons ;)
  708. # [20:10] <MikeSmith> heh
  709. # [20:11] <kennyluck> only sites that don't make money and sites nobody care about still use legacy big5.
  710. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> yeah
  711. # [20:11] <MikeSmith> seriously I think it makes more sense to break content for mainland china than it does for taiwan
  712. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> since taiwan is open
  713. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> and PROC is not
  714. # [20:12] <MikeSmith> I mean, a few broken sites for mainland users is nothing compared to the thousands of sites they can't to at all at anyway
  715. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> and they are used to dealing with things
  716. # [20:13] <MikeSmith> the savvy users I mean
  717. # [20:14] <MikeSmith> plus I really wonder what kinds of sites are using the extended stuff anyway, and why
  718. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> kennyluck: btw, are you in Beijing?
  719. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> I was there last month you know
  720. # [20:15] <MikeSmith> and I expected I'd run into you
  721. # [20:16] <MikeSmith> but you were nowhere to be found
  722. # [20:18] <MikeSmith> in other news, Emotion Markup Language headed to CR
  723. # [20:18] <Ms2ger> \o_
  724. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> Please mark up that emotion semantically, Ms2ger
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  731. # [20:25] <jgraham> TabAtkins: That's an emotion? I thought it was "guiding a plane in to land"
  732. # [20:26] <Ms2ger> Beep
  733. # [20:26] <TabAtkins> jgraham: If you dont' feel emotions when you successfully guide a plane in to land, you're dead inside.
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  736. # [20:30] <jgraham> Who said anything about successfully?
  737. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> Either way, really.
  738. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> If you don't feel emotions when you make a plane crash on landing, you're not dead inside?
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  741. # [20:31] <Philip`> Ms2ger: Surely it's the passengers who are dead inside
  742. # [20:32] * Ms2ger kicks Philip`
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  776. # [21:58] <Hixie> sigh, so annoying that webvtt is in a separate document rather than part of the html spec
  777. # [21:58] <Ms2ger> Ah, the joys of CGs
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  811. # [23:09] <smaug____> dglazkov: so inside decorators, <script> element would work in a different way than elsewhere in DOM ?
  812. # [23:09] <smaug____> (different 'this')
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  817. # [23:21] <dglazkov> smaug____: yes.
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  839. # [23:51] <divya> TabAtkins: YOU HERE YET?
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  848. # Session Close: Fri Apr 20 00:00:00 2012

The end :)