/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-05-30 / end

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  21. # [00:32] <Hixie> abarth: i have some e-mails from you regarding https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44641 -- should i just discard them? as you say in the bug, nobody else really got particularly excited about it
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  27. # [00:38] <zewt> fwiw, not really sure how it's better than just <?= htmlspecialchars($untrusted_string) ?>, it's just more opaque and not human readable
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  43. # [01:32] <abarth> Hixie: yeah, that's fine
  44. # [01:33] <Hixie> k, thanks
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  185. # [08:50] <annevk> jgraham: btw, GMail itself cannot handle the incorrectly formatted messages it emits either
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  188. # [08:56] <annevk> "The open*Cursor exception should be enforcable using WebIDL by using an enum. The only reason we don't have it that way in the spec is because ReSpec doesn't support that." o_O
  189. # [08:58] <sicking> does any browser support AnonXMLHttpRequest yet?
  190. # [08:59] <sicking> I'm wondering if we should change the constructor syntax to something like |new XMLHttpRequest({ anon: true})| to make it easier to expand for the future
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  193. # [09:00] <sicking> annevk: rewriting the spec to not use ReSpec would be a pretty major undertaking. Especially to do without introducing regressions. But hey, if you are offering to put in the time... :-)
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  206. # [09:25] <sicking> annevk: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=692677#c39
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  209. # [09:29] <Ms2ger> sicking, file a bug on XHR, please?
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  211. # [09:30] <jgraham> annevk: Neither can thunderbird, it seems
  212. # [09:36] <sicking> Ms2ger: done
  213. # [09:36] <Ms2ger> Thanks
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  233. # [10:08] <odinho> 09:51 < sicking> does any browser support AnonXMLHttpRequest yet? <<< Opera does, but more importantly, does anyone use it? Not too sure about that :P
  234. # [10:09] <zcorpan> we do?
  235. # [10:11] <MikeSmith> anybody know what "RC buggy" means in Debian discussions?
  236. # [10:12] <MikeSmith> hmm, RC means release critical, I guess
  237. # [10:12] <odinho> zcorpan: Uh, Dragonfly isn't working for me so it seems we support everything actually.
  238. # [10:12] <odinho> Even aoeu
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  241. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> anybody have suggestions for alternatives to hypermail?
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  243. # [10:15] <jgraham> MikeSmith: Why?
  244. # [10:16] <MikeSmith> because Fette is right about it being dead
  245. # [10:16] <odinho> sicking, zcorpan: Oh, no, we don't :P Actually. I remember writing a test for it, and somehow thought that meant we did more to it :]
  246. # [10:16] <jgraham> Oh well I guess you have to choose one of his four approved mail clients then
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  248. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> heh
  249. # [10:17] <jgraham> We could have a shared gmail account
  250. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> heh
  251. # [10:17] <jgraham> No way that could go wrong
  252. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> I use mutt man
  253. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> compile it myself from sources
  254. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> that's the way everybody should do
  255. # [10:18] <sicking> odinho: what about this page: http://fr.opera.com/docs/specs/presto2.10/
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  258. # [10:18] <jgraham> I like to imagine that Philip` reads emails like he reads PDFs: cat and the mbox specification
  259. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> I used to use mh, which isn't far from that
  260. # [10:20] <MikeSmith> I assumed Fette's list of approved mail clients was some kind of Dadaist joke
  261. # [10:21] <odinho> sicking: My tests are green, so yes, we do support it. I don't know why it didn't work in the console.
  262. # [10:21] <reggna> sicking: Yes, it's included in 2.10.232 and should work in Opera Next at least.
  263. # [10:21] <odinho> sicking: I switched to using DragonFly experimental track yesterday, I think I maybe shouldn't do that.
  264. # [10:22] <sicking> ok
  265. # [10:22] <odinho> sicking: IE10 doesn't implement it. Fx does not.
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  267. # [10:22] <sicking> yeah, we don't
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  271. # [10:22] <odinho> sicking: Neither the Chromium I have does.
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  286. # [10:44] <annevk> sicking: everything trumps spec writers man
  287. # [10:44] <annevk> sicking: better fix it up
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  292. # [10:45] <annevk> sicking: about AnonXMLHttpRequest -> XMLHttpRequest(object); I like that, but that does make it less detectable for code validating libraries
  293. # [10:45] <annevk> well, it gets more complicated at least
  294. # [10:46] <annevk> but if you could do new XMLHttpRequest({url:..., } etc. that'd be pretty neat
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  296. # [10:49] <odinho> What do you think about the sugar cg idea? -- It would probably make an easy version like that, but without the long name.
  297. # [10:50] <annevk> sugar cg?
  298. # [10:51] <annevk> guess I should read the logs
  299. # [10:52] <annevk> not in the logs odinho
  300. # [10:52] <odinho> Hmm. Like django.shortcuts, having a way for 90% to do 90% of what they want using much easier, less flexible shortcuts. -- It's something that a library should do, at least at first, as a proof of niceness (and to keep the bikeshedding down, because it'll basically only be about bikeshedding).
  301. # [10:53] <annevk> the danger with aliasing is that often you also start to want to "fix" things
  302. # [10:53] <odinho> They can even build it into extensions in the different browsers and put it on window, and see how it works :P
  303. # [10:53] <annevk> a problem with aliasing is that you need tests x2
  304. # [10:54] <odinho> annevk: Yeah, - it was like, it should only do json and process it and only give you the object back.
  305. # [10:54] <annevk> maybe even tests ^2 for combinations
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  307. # [11:01] <matjas> re: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120524#l-737 is the makefile / whatever it is you’re using to publish open source?
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  311. # [11:09] <annevk> matjas: not everything is public
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  313. # [11:09] <annevk> matjas: the spec goes through http://pimpmyspec.net/ which is open source
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  316. # [11:10] <annevk> matjas: http://code.google.com/p/html5/source/browse/trunk/spec-splitter/spec-splitter.py is used to generate the multi-page copy but as you observed it's a problem with the single-page copy as well
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  318. # [11:10] <matjas> thanks
  319. # [11:11] <annevk> matjas: I think the problem is with Anolis (which pimpmyspec.net uses), but I'm not a 100% sure and have not looked at it in a while
  320. # [11:11] <annevk> there's an open bug with confused comments about it
  321. # [11:11] <matjas> i suppose the source file that’s fed to pimpmyspec.net to generate the HTML spec isn’t public?
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  323. # [11:12] <annevk> there is http://svn.whatwg.org/webapps/
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  325. # [11:13] <annevk> but how source and the .inc files are combined is not public I'm afraid
  326. # [11:13] <annevk> you'll have to ask Hixie
  327. # [11:13] <matjas> aha, https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=12539
  328. # [11:13] <annevk> I wish he'd publish more of that code so everyone can have a go, but apparently it's a somewhat hackish script
  329. # [11:14] <annevk> matjas: your Bugzilla fu is better than mine :)
  330. # [11:15] <annevk> matjas: my comments there are bullshit as the problem is in the single-page version too reportedly
  331. # [11:16] <annevk> hmm although currently that does validate...
  332. # [11:16] <matjas> annevk: comment #2 by [tm] says it’s only a problem in the multi-page spec
  333. # [11:17] <matjas> i only noticed in the multi-page version, but then again i hadn’t looked at the single-page version
  334. # [11:18] <annevk> I think david_carlisle pointed that out at one point
  335. # [11:18] <annevk> meh
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  338. # [11:21] <matjas> ok, i’ll just wait for you to fix it then :p
  339. # [11:22] <annevk> looks like people have been waiting since January :)
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  341. # [11:22] <annevk> I'll appoint Philip`
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  343. # [11:22] <annevk> he's always timely
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  345. # [11:23] <annevk> time to fly
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  347. # [11:27] <matjas> TIL html.org is owned by the W3C now — that’s new, right?
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  381. # [13:38] <Ms2ger> The note on http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-3d-transforms/ could stand out more...
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  383. # [13:41] <jgraham> The "please test" junk on the new spec makes me unhappy
  384. # [13:43] <Ms2ger> I don't get that, use a tested browser ;)
  385. # [13:48] <Philip`> I like how the new spec uses SVG images that have what looks like ugly raster scaling artifacts in Firefox
  386. # [13:49] <Philip`> (Particularly the text is ugly)
  387. # [13:49] * Philip` just be misinterpreting a lack of hinting or something
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  391. # [14:05] <annevk> matjas: yeah, was a donation apparently
  392. # [14:06] <annevk> matjas: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2012May/0013.html
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  396. # [14:08] <matjas> cool
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  404. # [14:16] <matjas> i wonder what they’ll use it for
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  415. # [14:40] <odinho> MikeSmith: If you want to research, and don't need actual suggestions, you could look at Postorius, and Hyperkitty. I think Posterius is tied to the Mailman 3.0 REST API, so guess it won't work. I don't know much about hyperkitty, it kinda seems like an earlier name of postorius, so it will probably be just as unusable :P
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  451. # [15:51] <zcorpan> AryehGregor: having the stack in the message in testharness.js is quite verbose and most of the trace is about the harness itself, which isn't overly helpful
  452. # [15:55] <zewt> pretty annoying that we still don't have any legitimate stack trace API in JS
  453. # [15:56] <jgraham> zewt: But it might be used for *evil*
  454. # [15:56] <jgraham> And no one is allowed to use javascript for evil
  455. # [15:56] <jgraham> Crockford forbids it
  456. # [15:56] <zewt> heh
  457. # [15:56] <zewt> well, we can already get stack traces (in most browsers), just badly :)
  458. # [15:58] <gsnedders> ES7 may well define it.
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  460. # [16:03] <jgraham> Will ES7 come out before or after flying cars go mainstream?
  461. # [16:05] <gsnedders> Well, ES6 will be this year.
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  466. # [16:11] <zcorpan> ES3 1999, ES5 2009, ES5.1 2011, ES6 2012, ES7 ???
  467. # [16:12] <zcorpan> ES1 and ES2 were 1997 and 1998
  468. # [16:12] <gsnedders> I dunno. Many of the proposals are beginning to stablize.
  469. # [16:12] <zcorpan> so they burst out three editions every decade
  470. # [16:13] <zcorpan> which means ES7 will be some time around 2020
  471. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> Or as early as 2017
  472. # [16:14] <Ms2ger> Still 5 years ahead of HTML5
  473. # [16:18] <jgraham> There is no HTML5, there is only HTML
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  476. # [16:22] <volkmar> Ms2ger: we should have HTML 2020, HTML 2021, HTML 2022 :)
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  479. # [16:30] <Philip`> I guess HTML 2020 would be the best and then they'd get progressively more shortsighted
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  483. # [16:35] <jgraham> (tumbleweed)
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  494. # [16:48] <Philip`> (Optometry jokes are hard :-( )
  495. # [16:49] <annevk> uploading a large file to DreamHost is no fun
  496. # [16:49] <annevk> starts at MiB/s
  497. # [16:49] <annevk> now KiB/s
  498. # [16:49] <annevk> oh now done
  499. # [16:49] <annevk> yay
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  505. # [17:00] <odinho> annevk: So why the uploading of big files to DreamHost òÓ
  506. # [17:01] <annevk> I made a one-minute video for someone and I don't think 70MiB works as an email attachment
  507. # [17:01] <annevk> but maybe it does these days
  508. # [17:01] <jgraham> That's not a big file
  509. # [17:01] <annevk> jgraham: yes it is
  510. # [17:02] <odinho> Heh
  511. # [17:02] * Philip` thought everyone used Youtube for videos nowadays
  512. # [17:02] <annevk> most of my files are several KiBs
  513. # [17:02] <odinho> I normally use BitTorrent for it, -- but those files are normally several hundreds of gigabytes.
  514. # [17:02] <annevk> Philip`: doesn't work great for sharing the raw data
  515. # [17:02] <Philip`> Ah
  516. # [17:03] <karlcow> Philip`: vimeo, dailymotion too
  517. # [17:03] <jgraham> youporn
  518. # [17:03] <odinho> jgraham: ... Well, now we know what kind of videos you share.
  519. # [17:03] <karlcow> hmm… if we go into hipsters video hosting sites
  520. # [17:03] <jgraham> I don't think I have ever shared a video of anything
  521. # [17:04] <odinho> s/share/make/
  522. # [17:04] <zcorpan> "you wanna see a video of my cat? i uploaded it to youporn. here's a link."
  523. # [17:04] <jgraham> I guess I probably can't claim I have never made a video of anything
  524. # [17:04] <odinho> lol, would be cool to try.
  525. # [17:04] <odinho> See how long before it is taken down for not being explicit.
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  527. # [17:04] <jgraham> I don't think I have ever made anything that some one surfing youporn would be looking for :)
  528. # [17:04] <annevk> it would be disturbing if it was odinho
  529. # [17:05] <odinho> annevk: If what was?
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  531. # [17:05] <jgraham> the porographic video annevk is uploading
  532. # [17:05] <jgraham> That's what's happening, right?
  533. # [17:05] <odinho> :o
  534. # [17:05] <annevk> I was referring to the cat video
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  536. # [17:06] <odinho> annevk: So, it'd be disturbing if I was zcorpan's cat. Yes, I can agree with that. Thankfully I'm not :]
  537. # [17:06] <Philip`> Whose cat are you, then?
  538. # [17:06] <odinho> Philip`: I'm my own cat.
  539. # [17:07] <odinho> Just like the tomcat in aristocats.
  540. # [17:07] <annevk> an employed wild cat?
  541. # [17:08] * odinho sees his story starts crumbling
  542. # [17:08] <jgraham> Mmm, crumble
  543. # [17:08] <annevk> apple crumble
  544. # [17:08] <annevk> yumyum
  545. # [17:08] <odinho> I bought yumyum yesterday.
  546. # [17:09] * jgraham has quite some rhubarb at the moment. Makes very nice crumble
  547. # [17:09] <karlcow> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_a_Cat
  548. # [17:09] <jgraham> (not as much as I would like of course. It is not possivle to have too much rhubarb)
  549. # [17:10] <odinho> jgraham: True dat.
  550. # [17:12] <jgraham> I wonder if I will be brave enough to split the crowns later in the year
  551. # [17:13] <jgraham> Truly the most republican-sounding of all gardening tasks
  552. # [17:14] <Ms2ger> Not in this jubilee year, of course
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  554. # [17:21] <odinho> Ms2ger, jgraham: Waddaya think about my last comment?
  555. # [17:21] * Quits: yodasw16 (~dgillhesp@ql1fwhide.rockfin.com) (Quit: yodasw16)
  556. # [17:22] <Ms2ger> Er, yes, rhubarb makes good crumble for you humans
  557. # [17:23] <jgraham> Indeed. I recommend homemade custard
  558. # [17:23] <jgraham> to go on the side
  559. # [17:23] <jgraham> Or homemade ice cream
  560. # [17:24] <odinho> Ms2ger: On github :P
  561. # [17:24] <jgraham> (I have also made rhubarb crumble icecream)
  562. # [17:24] <Ms2ger> What's github? :)
  563. # [17:24] <odinho> Making a commit now.
  564. # [17:24] <jgraham> (that was nice)
  565. # [17:24] <jgraham> Ms2ger: The clue's in the namew
  566. # [17:24] <jgraham> -w
  567. # [17:24] <odinho> This is no environment to get any work done :P
  568. # [17:25] * Ms2ger did not get email
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  570. # [17:28] <odinho> Ms2ger: https://github.com/jgraham/testharness.js/pull/1#r900500 << this is new stuff
  571. # [17:30] <odinho> Ms2ger: Think I'll make it into a patch now, -- and dump it on jgraham as long as it's OK.
  572. # [17:31] <Ms2ger> odinho, what was "I actually think adding || required_props.code == 0..." in reply to? :)
  573. # [17:32] <odinho> This one --> Right now, it's possible to just throw code = 0, and no name and it'll pass for e.g. IndexedDB spec's DataError or TransactionInactiveError.
  574. # [17:33] <Ms2ger> Please update the documentation for assert_throws too?
  575. # [17:34] <odinho> Ms2ger: Smart. Hmm.
  576. # [17:35] <Ms2ger> And explain what we're checking if you pass in an object
  577. # [17:37] <Ms2ger> odinho, in the part where you check required_props.code === undefined, could you use `in` there too?
  578. # [17:37] <odinho> Ms2ger: Sure.
  579. # [17:38] <Ms2ger> And in the if (e.name !== e.name.toUpperCase() || required_props.code === 0), add a comment along the lines of "New style exception: also test the name property."
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  586. # [17:46] <matjas> probably waaaay too easy for you guys, but here goes: http://twitter.com/mathias/status/207858124802097154
  587. # [17:47] <Wilto> matjas: A REGEX-BASED HTML PARSER????
  588. # [17:47] <Wilto> [cue: Zalgo]
  589. # [17:48] <matjas> Y̸͉͚̘̯̥̠̋̌̋̈́̏̃͒͆ͦ̓ͧ͛ͫ̀͐͗̇ͮ͘e̸̴̛͉̳̼̼̯ͥ̑̏͆ͩ̃̆̅ͬ̌̍͗̀̚͘sͦ̒̔̏̾̆̇ͮ͊ͤͣͮ̂҉̶̹̪̘̘̳̞̞͍̞̝̭̪̻̕ͅ,̴̥͎͇̲̠̻̱͇͓̯̭̦̯̟̣̟̤̅ͩͩ͌ͦ͗ͪ̇̒͋͂ͧͩ̚͜ ͪ̾̿ͩ̓ͫ͐ͮ̓҉̶͔͉̯̫̙̞̟̤̗̹̹̕͠ͅW̶̸̶̝̪̞̩̤̰̉̇͗͛͒͌͛̽ͦ͛͑̕i̔̒͆͐ͪ͗ͩ͐̌̑̓̒̋ͥ̈͑̕҉͟͏̢̱͖͈͉͓͙l͑̒ͧͩ̾̒̆̇ͣͦ͠
  590. # [17:48] <matjas> ̸̨͇̘̩̦̣̼ṯ͎̤̱̺̤̜̜̯̦͖͇͓̋̉̂́ͮͦ̑̃͂͆͟͡ͅö̷̔͐ͬ̓͏̨̖̦̙͖͇͎̹̠͔͘.̧̥͓̹̜̹͖̩̙̭̯̪̣̺̘̅͗̎ͩ̔̄ͬ͑͟ͅ ̧̢͉̱͈̫͚̬ͮ͐ͮ͝A̡͍͇̥͖̣̜͎͙̦̖̻̼̅̈̆ͭͬͧ̔͐ͩ̏̍̍ͫ̀͘͡ ̨̛̪̲͈͇͖̯̫͔̟͈̒ͧ͋ͬͧ̎ͤ͂͑͐̔̚͠r̪͚͔̝̩̐͌̽͗ͨ̏̇̿ͣ͆̉̈̽͊̈́̅̒ͧ͘͢͜͜͠ͅę̬̘̰̘̤̣̱̫̟͖͐̔̋̃ͤ̾̾̓̔́̎̔͡
  591. # [17:48] <matjas> ̘g̡͖̹̙̣͉̭̥̤̝̯͈̝̣̳̬͂͊̄̽ͤ͑͢͠͡e͔̙͖͍͎̟̣̬̰̟͓̍͂͌͗̃̄̇̑ͭ̉̉ͦͥ͗ͣ̐̈́͢͠x̬͚͙̣̥͖̲̞̣̠̞̍͒ͫ̒ͮ̐̽̇͆̂͂͊̚͜͜-̛̟͓͙̹̱͚̙̟̣̭̙̤̳̖̤̥̜̐ͮ̉͆̏̽̊̌̓̀̀͢͝b̴̸̸̢͚̼̭̞̥̭̬̣̘̮̮̣͇͈̪̹̜̓̇͗̽á̺̥͎̰̲̺͖͉̬̗͓̪̫͉̘̯ͣ͆̄ͪ̈̓̒͐̄̍ͩͨ́͆́͢ͅͅs̨͓͔̲̜̗̥̦̦͚̖̻̫͍͈̍̈ͩ̏͐ͤ̃e͑
  592. # [17:48] <matjas> ̷̙̗͇̬̭͕̘̞̯̣͕̟̩̑͂̒͐͋ͨ͊͆͆̇̏ͩ͛͋ͯ̕͟͝͞d̡ͤ̃ͧ̋͒̎̌̌ͫ҉͕̩̰̭̻͎̠̗̙̭̼̪̀ ̝̥̰͎̼̙̮̫̮͚͖͖͎̫̐̎̈́ͤ͒ͪ̏ͦ͗͛ͣ͑͋͠͡ͅH̶̢̛̠̪̼͎͖͇̠̲͕͓̥͇͍̬̟̘̟ͨ̂ͪ͌̋̈͌̋͗̑̆͊͒̔̌̀͝T̛̘̝̬̜̜̝͈̣̗͍̤̝̤̤̣̎͋͛̿͛ͧ͒ͤ̃̄̀̒̚͘͠͠͠M̵͈̼͈̜͔̗̟̯͖͎̜̦̈́̒ͧ͗ͩ́̾ͨ̉ͪͨ͛ͦ͟͝Ļ͐̒̃̃͏̣̘̠̝͖̜
  593. # [17:48] <matjas> ̤̗̫̥̣͙͇̭̘ ̶̶̵̡͙̰̼͈͔̩̹̻̻̫̪̓͊́̿ͪͮ͆͐ͭ̄̔ͪͨ̾͋́̿̎̍͝p̴͑ͮ̏̓̅̌̉ͭ̀͐̄ͧ̽҉̴̶̭̖̮̦̣͈͚͓̦̠̤͍̫̱̩͎͢ă̷̶̪̮̼̹̬̯̫͖͈̻̦̪͈̭͚̩͇̞̔̃̄ͭ͆͗̄̂͋͌́͜r̢̛̫͓͓͕̫͙͈̟͇͚̮͔̜̰̥̄̋̌̔ͨ͑͐̏̔͗ͨ̔̀͘͠ş̸̸͔̥̩̰̦̹̝̳͖̲̻̣̮̭̲͔͈̅̔̈̾͊̔́ͣ̓͋̿̋̓̚͘e̵ͩ̅͊ͮͣ͗̊̽̏̀͗̒͒̓̊ͩͬ̊
  594. # [17:48] <matjas> ̴̶͍͍̲̱̟̺̘̥̀͡ͅr̢̟̳͉͈̫͇̒ͮ̒͛ͬͣ͐ͩ̈́ͯ͒ͧ͘͡.̛͋ͨ̓͌͡͏̨͓̱̺̠̪̭͈̩
  595. # [17:48] <miketaylr> matjas: my answer will fail if you come from an enterprise shop, most likely
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  597. # [17:48] <matjas> go for it
  598. # [17:48] <miketaylr> just @'d you
  599. # [17:49] <matjas> ah, no i don’t think that’d work
  600. # [17:49] <matjas> if it does i just got owned
  601. # [17:49] <matjas> hahahaa omg i suck
  602. # [17:49] <matjas> i had something completely different in mind
  603. # [17:49] <miketaylr> :D
  604. # [17:49] <miketaylr> hmm what's the other way
  605. # [17:49] * miketaylr looks
  606. # [17:49] <annevk> matjas: more like #dompubquiz
  607. # [17:50] <matjas> annevk: yeah, i was considering adding multiple hashtags!!1
  608. # [17:50] <TabAtkins> Hah, miketaylr, that was my first thought too. I just wasn't certain that document had the node methods.
  609. # [17:51] <matjas> sometimes i miss document.innerHTML
  610. # [17:51] <annevk> matjas: better question: why ever access document.doctype? :)
  611. # [17:51] <matjas> fo’ funsies
  612. # [17:51] <annevk> "because you can and because Acid3 made it so"
  613. # [17:51] <odinho> :] Writing annoying analytics/stats package?
  614. # [17:53] <miketaylr> i was using it w/ jsdom to modify some html files, http://miketaylr.com/post/4e85dc30.png
  615. # [17:53] <miketaylr> but then i removed jsdom because i hate it
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  617. # [17:53] <Philip`> Surely the best approach is to tell everyone to use <!DOCTYPE html> and then never worry about doctypes ever again
  618. # [17:53] <matjas> odinho: no, just learned about //node() in XPath today, and noticed it even gets the DOCTYPE node
  619. # [17:53] <matjas> (i’m a complete XPath n00b too, fwiw)
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  621. # [17:53] <annevk> data:text/xml,<!DOCTYPE html><svg/>
  622. # [17:53] <odinho> matjas: Ah, I was answering annevk what you could do with it. :]
  623. # [17:53] <Ms2ger> BSOD
  624. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> Well, YSOD / RBOD
  625. # [17:54] <annevk> Ms2ger: not in Opera
  626. # [17:54] <Philip`> Solution: data:text/html,<!DOCTYPE html><svg/>
  627. # [17:54] <Ms2ger> Hence, the Red Box Of not-quite-Death
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  629. # [17:59] <TabAtkins> annevk: No need to ever use a doctype for SVG.
  630. # [17:59] <matjas> (^ for XML in general)
  631. # [18:01] <miketaylr> matjas: i think i found the other way, document[document.toString().slice(12,15).toLowerCase()+TypeError.toString().slice(9, 13).toLowerCase()]
  632. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> Booooo
  633. # [18:02] <tantek> what are folks' opinions on lowercase doctype vs uppercase DOCTYPE? e.g. <!doctype html> (faster to type, no shiftkey) vs. <!DOCTYPE html> ?
  634. # [18:02] <matjas> miketaylr: that’s cheating!
  635. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> tantek: <!DoCtYpE hTmL>
  636. # [18:02] <matjas> tantek: I like <!DOCTYPE html> as SGML always uppercases DOCTYPE
  637. # [18:02] <miketaylr> matjas: ok, but it was a good way to kill 2 minutes
  638. # [18:02] <tantek> TabAtkins - that's only because you can't use upside down letters
  639. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> tantek: True.
  640. # [18:02] <jgraham> I think my opinion is that time spent debating it would be better spent making crumble
  641. # [18:02] <TabAtkins> But anyway, I'm lazy so now I always just write <!doctype html>
  642. # [18:02] <matjas> miketaylr: brilliant use of TypeError, though
  643. # [18:02] * odinho agrees with jgraham
  644. # [18:03] <odinho> (But I do as TabAtkins)
  645. # [18:03] <tantek> which do you use in practice odinho jgraham? (not a debate, more of a poll)
  646. # [18:04] <TabAtkins> Same reason I usually use single quotes when I have to quote an attribute.
  647. # [18:04] <TabAtkins> No shift.
  648. # [18:04] <Philip`> tantek: How do you write the "<!" without the shift key?
  649. # [18:04] <tantek> good catch Philip :)
  650. # [18:04] <odinho> tantek: Looking over all my tests at w3c-test.org, they're all <!doctype html> if I wrote them myself (not porting other people's :P)
  651. # [18:04] <Ms2ger> Philip`, French keyboard
  652. # [18:04] <miketaylr> i use <!DOCTYPE html> because it looks cooler
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  654. # [18:05] <Philip`> tantek: Surely it's better to keep the shift key held down for all of "<!DOCTYPE" because then you've got the entire duration of the " " to release the shift key, whereas with "<!doctype" you've got to release it very quickly else you'll end up with "<!Doctype"
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  656. # [18:05] <TabAtkins> Philip`: I'm not sure what kind of keyboard you use, or how you type, but I can't "keep the shift key held down" for all of those letters.
  657. # [18:06] <Philip`> I always do <!DOCTYPE html> largely because KDE's syntax-highlighting text control thing complains about <!doctype ...> in underlined red
  658. # [18:06] <Ms2ger> How many fingers do you use? :)
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  660. # [18:07] <Philip`> TabAtkins: I have multiple fingers, so I can use my right little finger for shift while typing with the rest of my hands
  661. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> It feels supremely unnatural to try and hold down a shift on the same side as the letter I'm typing.
  662. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> When I do happen to write it in caps, I just use caps lock.
  663. # [18:07] <Philip`> I only do the O and P with my right hand
  664. # [18:07] <TabAtkins> Wait, the P is done with your pinky though, right?
  665. # [18:08] <jgraham> Presumably not
  666. # [18:08] <Philip`> No, that's done with my middle finger if I'm holding shift
  667. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> Okay, so I'm back to that just being weird.
  668. # [18:08] <Philip`> or with the next outermost finger if I'm not holding shift
  669. # [18:08] <TabAtkins> That's the ring finger.
  670. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> And that's still really weird. It's quite difficult for me to hit P with my ring finger.
  671. # [18:09] <TabAtkins> While it's directly above the ; key, so quite natural to use my pinky.
  672. # [18:09] <matjas> Philip`: better answer: use a custom keyboard layout
  673. # [18:09] * Philip` doesn't have any kind of consciously consistent pattern for what fingers he uses - he just hits the keys with whatever happens to be nearest at that instant
  674. # [18:09] <Ms2ger> Use a hotkey for <!DoCtYpE hTmL>?
  675. # [18:09] <odinho> This is getting unweild.
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  677. # [18:10] <matjas> DOCTYPEs are too mainstream.
  678. # [18:10] <matjas> stop using them & you get box-sizing: border-box for free!!11
  679. # [18:10] <tantek> lol
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  683. # [18:22] <tantek> annevk - on the topic of fullscreen - are you ok with the suggested edits from glazou? http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/1129.html
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  690. # [18:32] <tantek> and fantasai's comments are constructive/helpful as well: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012May/1131.html
  691. # [18:32] <miketaylr> matjas: oh thought of another one, document.all.item(0).previousSibling
  692. # [18:35] * Druide__ is now known as Druide_
  693. # [18:35] <Ms2ger> Objection!
  694. # [18:36] <Ms2ger> Also, not necessarily with whitespace
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  698. # [18:38] <miketaylr> :'(
  699. # [18:38] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  700. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> Reasonable afternoon, dglazkov
  701. # [18:40] <dglazkov> \o/ reasonable is almost good
  702. # [18:41] <tantek> good morning dglazkov
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  715. # [19:01] <odinho> https://github.com/Velmont/testharness.js/commit/0cba0a7a006cb9493a9f9d3eea5a64d0e606832a < docs look reasonable, anyone?
  716. # [19:02] <Ms2ger> odinho, it checks .name for the object, no?
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  719. # [19:03] <odinho> Ms2ger: Yeah. But I think it should do what I wrote, although I see that is rather stupid to do that. I guess I thought a bit too much about it and wrote it in.
  720. # [19:04] <Ms2ger> I mean, I'd be happy to have the code do what you documented
  721. # [19:04] <Ms2ger> But I want the docs and the code to match
  722. # [19:05] <odinho> I was all like, "it does that? yeah, strange, should maybe fix that. How to do it? Well, could do that. ... <long break>. So, writing this docs stuff. write/write totally wrong stuff, write."
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  759. # [19:52] <Ms2ger> odinho, and now the { type: "TypeError" } example :)
  760. # [19:53] <odinho> WÆÆÆ :P
  761. # [19:53] <odinho> So just remove the object example I guess.
  762. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> Wœœœœ
  763. # [19:53] <odinho> Because I can't manage to make a sane one.
  764. # [19:53] <Ms2ger> Make it `new TypeError()`, because that's what's actually used :)
  765. # [19:55] <odinho> There, pushed.
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  770. # [19:59] <Ms2ger> <Ms2ger> odinho, in the part where you check required_props.code === undefined, could you use `in` there too?
  771. # [19:59] <odinho> Ms2ger: I tried.
  772. # [19:59] <odinho> Ms2ger: Didn't work. :P Because it does set code on required_props
  773. # [19:59] <odinho> Ms2ger: But it sets it to undefined.
  774. # [20:00] <Ms2ger> Yeah
  775. # [20:01] <Ms2ger> I was thinking of var name_code_map = { ... }; if (!(name in name_code_map)) { throw... } required_props.code = name_code_map[code];
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  783. # [20:06] <odinho> Ms2ger: Ah, you want to expand that one. Sure that's needed? It was like that before. ... It might be a bit clearer, yea.
  784. # [20:06] <Ms2ger> I would prefer it :)
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  789. # [20:07] <odinho> Ms2ger: Will have a code_name_map and a name_code_map then, where code means different things in the two different ones :P
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  791. # [20:08] <odinho> assert_throws taking "code" is a bit strange now already.
  792. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> We already overload "code", no?
  793. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> Right
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  798. # [20:15] <odinho> Ms2ger: Refactored.
  799. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> Hmm, you could make it var required_props = { code: name_code_map[name] };
  800. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> Either way, push it
  801. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> (As one patch)
  802. # [20:18] <odinho> Ms2ger: Yeah, I was mindlessly moving code :P
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  887. # [23:46] <TabAtkins> Oof, just spent two hours working through a nerd-snipe.
  888. # [23:47] <TabAtkins> On the good side, Animations now has much cleaner markup.
  889. # [23:48] <tantek> TabAtkins, you know often you have to rework markup to "clean it up" in MediaWiki? Like never.
  890. # [23:48] <TabAtkins> MediaWiki markup is horrible and I hate it.
  891. # [23:48] <tantek> I stand by the assertion that specs as we develop them today have more markup than we need.
  892. # [23:48] <tantek> no argument about MediaWiki markup opinions - I'm neutral on it.
  893. # [23:49] <tantek> how do you feel about MarkDown?
  894. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> Shrug. You're wrong. If your assertion is that you would prefer a stronger preprocessor so you do more compact syntax instead of the occasional tag, okay, but you can't actually reduce the amount of syntax we have significantly.
  895. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> Beyond attaching a Markdown processor to the front of the preprocessor.
  896. # [23:49] <TabAtkins> Markdown is great.
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  898. # [23:50] <tantek> Markdown is not bad. Except how it does links seems bass-ackwards.
  899. # [23:50] <tantek> which seem quite critical
  900. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> I think doing links in plain text is a hard problem no matter what you do.
  901. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> But I'm okay with how it's done in Markdown.
  902. # [23:50] <TabAtkins> I'd also be okay with the brackets swapped.
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  904. # [23:52] <tantek> what gets me about the markup we use in spec development aren't the occasional things like emphasis, keywords, but rather the common text
  905. # [23:52] <tantek> li
  906. # [23:52] <tantek> ke
  907. # [23:52] <tantek> paragraphs, lists all become a noisier because of the markup
  908. # [23:52] <TabAtkins> I can sympathize with that.
  909. # [23:52] <Hixie> welcome to HTML
  910. # [23:53] <tantek> welcome Hixie
  911. # [23:53] <tantek> TabAtkins - so if wikis accepted Markdown - you'd think they're ok?
  912. # [23:54] <tantek> who "owns" the Markdown spec btw? like if someone wants to suggest syntax additions...
  913. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> Gruber.
  914. # [23:54] * Hixie wishes wikis would just use HTML
  915. # [23:54] <karlcow> Gruber owns markdown
  916. # [23:54] <karlcow> and not in a liberal way
  917. # [23:54] * tantek has documented Hixie's preference.
  918. # [23:54] <TabAtkins> tantek: I think Markdown is a technically superior syntax, so yeah.
  919. # [23:55] <tantek> karlcow - do you have a URL to the live spec?
  920. # [23:55] <karlcow> ah no! my bad
  921. # [23:55] <karlcow> Markdown is free software, available under a BSD-style open source license. See the License page for more information.
  922. # [23:55] <TabAtkins> http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/
  923. # [23:55] <karlcow> http://daringfireball.net/projects/markdown/
  924. # [23:56] <karlcow> I remember reading a stricter license in the past
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  927. # [23:59] <karlcow> and really my bad because the files on Web archives show a BSD license at least since 2004.
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  929. # Session Close: Thu May 31 00:00:00 2012

The end :)