/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-06-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 28 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  16. # [00:26] <zewt> Hixie: seems like it should just use data-* attributes, at least for now
  17. # [00:26] <TabAtkins_> anatolbroder: That would be a very large display. Remember that the CSS pixel is defined in terms of visual angle, so 1920 pixels is about 40 degrees of vision.
  18. # [00:26] <zewt> at least, until there are use cases for standardizing sub-types
  19. # [00:27] <zewt> TabAtkins_: that's pretty meaningless; no system knows how far the user is from the screen
  20. # [00:27] <zewt> (or some value approaching "none")
  21. # [00:27] <TabAtkins_> zewt: Theoretically, sure. In practice, screens are designed for a particular viewing range.
  22. # [00:27] <TabAtkins_> Phone versus desktop vs TV vs projector.
  23. # [00:27] <zewt> one with a very wide range
  24. # [00:28] <TabAtkins_> Sure, more or less a 2x factor each way, I'd say.
  25. # [00:28] <zewt> projectors are probably the worst case, since projectors don't even know how large a screen they're projecting (beyond some very broad limits)
  26. # [00:29] <zewt> (also a fairly rare case, though)
  27. # [00:29] <Philip`> (Don't they make projectors with automatic range-finders so they can correctly focus themselves?)
  28. # [00:29] <zewt> (if so, I doubt they pass that data on to the source)
  29. # [00:30] <zewt> it would be pretty amusing to have a webpage layout change as you move a projector around, though :)
  30. # [00:31] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: I'm with zewt - as far as I can tell, data-* attributes should be fine. I didn't read the entire bug thread, though, as it was very long.
  31. # [00:31] <zewt> (I only read the OP)
  32. # [00:32] <zewt> (once there's a body of metadata types, and people using them, it would probably make more sense to spec something more concrete)
  33. # [00:32] <TabAtkins_> Yeah, as new @kind values.
  34. # [00:32] <zewt> well, I'd leave that alone, and the spec would just be subcategories of metadata
  35. # [00:33] <Hixie> zewt, TabAtkins_: on what element would you be putting this content attribute?
  36. # [00:33] <zewt> (otherwise, you'd have to spec that unknown @kind means "metadata", for forwards-compatibility, which could cause problems with adding new unrelated @kinds later)
  37. # [00:33] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: The <track>.
  38. # [00:33] <zewt> Hixie: <track>
  39. # [00:33] <Hixie> zewt, TabAtkins_: this is about exposing an in-band text track's doohicket to an IDL object, the only element is the <video> or <audio>, there is no <track>.
  40. # [00:33] <Hixie> doohickey, even
  41. # [00:33] <TabAtkins_> Oh!
  42. # [00:34] <TabAtkins_> How are these doohickey's exposed? Is there a consistent way of encoding and detecting this?
  43. # [00:34] <TabAtkins_> s/'//
  44. # [00:34] <Philip`> zewt: Moving the projector around sounds like something that augmented reality people should be interested in - you could design a room with a web page virtually spread around its walls, and the projector works out where you're pointing and projects the appropriate section of the page to correspond to that wall
  45. # [00:34] <zewt> well, there's a separate discussion about adding metadata headers to VTT; that would, presumably, be exposed with an API on TextTrack
  46. # [00:34] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: it's a mess, but the bug lists some conventions we're going to use
  47. # [00:35] <Hixie> zewt: metadata in vtt is a solution in search of a use case, so far. (might be that the use case is in some of the feedback i haven't read yet)
  48. # [00:35] <Philip`> (It'd fit the usual AR pattern of taking something that you can already do conveniently on a computer, and then adding a layer of awkward UI on top of it so that it's harder to access the content)
  49. # [00:35] <zewt> Hixie: i've listed some concrete use cases (eg. providing info to muxers); this would (perhaps--havn't read into it enough) likely be another use case
  50. # [00:35] * Quits: miketaylr (~miketaylr@cpe-70-112-101-224.austin.res.rr.com) (Quit: Leaving...)
  51. # [00:36] <zewt> though, maybe not
  52. # [00:36] <TabAtkins_> Hixie: Hm. In that case, I guess textTrack.metadata
  53. # [00:36] <zewt> since I'd think you'd want this info in <track> so you can access it before the vtt is fetched ... guess I need to read through it (bleh)
  54. # [00:36] <zewt> > Page origin O exposes video/audio from a 3rd party P, which contains/refers to a metadata track sourced by P or sourced by a 4th party M.
  55. # [00:37] * zewt squints
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  57. # [00:38] <zewt> basically it either fits in <track data-xxx=> for the "available without fetching" optimization, or as VTT file metadata for the "not available without fetching, but can be sourced from a third-party without putting it in <track>" optimization
  58. # [00:39] <zewt> the former is more consistent, though (where you always put that sort of metadata on <track>, even if that means you have to jump some extra hoops for third-party content)
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  60. # [00:44] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: that seems a bit overly vague for something that is really just a type identifier for proprietary track dispatch
  61. # [00:45] <TabAtkins_> I'm assuming that more stuff will probably all out of the "get me some data from the stream".
  62. # [00:45] <zewt> parse error
  63. # [00:45] <Hixie> fall
  64. # [00:46] <Hixie> TabAtkins_: yeah, but then we'd want to use "metadata" for that :-)
  65. # [00:46] <TabAtkins_> Not actually sure what I was trying to type there.
  66. # [00:46] <Hixie> maybe media.inBandMetadataDispatchType
  67. # [00:46] <Hixie> or media.inBandMetadataTrackDispatchType
  68. # [00:46] <Hixie> er
  69. # [00:46] <Hixie> track.
  70. # [00:47] <zewt> seems like it'd make more sense to just implement generic VTT headers, and people can stick "Dispatch-Type: parental-advisery", then say track.metadata["Dispatch-Type"]
  71. # [00:49] <zewt> (or "X-Dispatch-Type" or "data-Dispatch-Type" or whatever the equivalent of data-* is in that namespace)
  72. # [00:51] <Hixie> that's like a zillion times more complicated
  73. # [00:51] <Hixie> and wouldn't work :-)
  74. # [00:51] <zewt> why wouldn't it work?
  75. # [00:51] <Hixie> the whole point is to expose specific existing fields that differ by format in a consistent way
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  78. # [00:52] <currency> hey
  79. # [00:52] <currency> i need some HTML6, where can i dl that and hav a luk
  80. # [00:52] <TabAtkins_> Try pirate bay, I hear they leaked it early.
  81. # [00:52] <zewt> expose how? isn't this only for JS to know how to interpret the contents of metadata fields, not for UAs exposing it differently?
  82. # [00:53] <zewt> (this bug is a headache to read; comments nested seven deep)
  83. # [00:53] <Hixie> i don't understand the question
  84. # [00:53] <zewt> i don't understand what you mean won't work
  85. # [00:53] <Hixie> this is for exposing specific in-band metadata track data so that a script can know which subscript module to dispatch a track to
  86. # [00:54] <Hixie> there are specific fields in existing in-band formats that they want to use for this
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  88. # [00:54] <Hixie> it's not a generic thing
  89. # [00:54] <zewt> not seeing how what I described wouldn't handle that
  90. # [00:55] <zewt> if the metadata fields in a VTT file are JSON with some schema (for example), the script does "if(track.metadata['Type'] == 'my-proprietary-json-format') { handleCueWithMyFormat(cue); }"
  91. # [00:55] <currency> html6 leaked on pirate bay?
  92. # [00:56] <Hixie> this has nothing to do with VTT
  93. # [00:56] <zewt> uh, okay, you could have said that ten minutes ago :)
  94. # [00:56] <zewt> then what does this have to do with HTML?
  95. # [00:56] <Hixie> i don't know how vtt entered the conversation, i keep saying it's about in-band tracks for specific formats :-)
  96. # [00:56] <Hixie> it's about HTML in that it's about the HTML TextTrack API
  97. # [00:57] <zewt> well, the bug is about text tracks, and the only text track format supported by HTML that I know of is VTT :)
  98. # [00:57] <Hixie> HTML is track format agnostic
  99. # [00:58] <currency> did html6 drop yet?
  100. # [00:58] <zewt> (of course, you could apply the API just the same, with other formats exposing their type as a metadata field)
  101. # [00:58] <currency> when is apple going to roll out html6?
  102. # [00:58] <zewt> troll score: 1/10
  103. # [00:59] <Hixie> afk for a bit
  104. # [00:59] <Hixie> think i'll go with track.inBandMetadataTrackDispatchType for now and hope someone comes up with a better name (or it never gets implemented and we can forget about it)
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  106. # [01:05] <smaug____> inBandMetadataTrackDispatchType is almost long enough to be invented by me
  107. # [01:06] <hober> currency: we already shipped html7, duh
  108. # [01:07] <currency> hober : ar eu with apple?
  109. # [01:07] <TabAtkins_> <meme>Unsure if trolling or crazy</meme>
  110. # [01:07] <currency> nice markup
  111. # [01:08] <currency> im not trolling
  112. # [01:08] <currency> i was reading about html6
  113. # [01:08] <currency> but then i looked at the date it was posted
  114. # [01:08] <currency> and it was april 2nd lol
  115. # [01:08] <currency> of course that was after i joind this channel and already askd about it
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  215. # [05:08] <annevk> Hixie: nah man, rename all the things!
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  230. # [05:48] <Hixie> jesus
  231. # [05:48] <Hixie> MPEG-4 is a seriously messed up format
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  236. # [05:57] <rniwa> Hixie: any spec. to do with video and audio are pretty much messed up IMO.
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  238. # [05:57] <Hixie> the spec is impenetrable
  239. # [05:57] <Hixie> as far as i can tell
  240. # [05:58] <Hixie> (if anyone here is familiar with MPEG-4 let me know, you could really help me out)
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  243. # [06:08] <MikeSmith> Hixie: track stuff?
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  252. # [06:27] <rniwa> Hixie: does HTML5 require named getter on document object?
  253. # [06:28] <rniwa> Hixie: i.e. named access; http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/browsers.html#named-access-on-the-window-object
  254. # [06:28] <rniwa> Hixie: it appears that webkit has some code to allow this on document but is not working.
  255. # [06:28] <rniwa> Hixie: it'll be nice if we can just get rid of altogether if we don't need them.
  256. # [06:28] <rniwa> get rid of them*
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  259. # [06:37] <Hixie> MikeSmith: yeah
  260. # [06:37] <MikeSmith> Hixie: yeah saw the bug now
  261. # [06:37] <Hixie> rniwa: dunno, look at the spec :-)
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  263. # [06:38] <rniwa> Hixie: i've looked at the spec but couldn't find it.
  264. # [06:38] * Hixie looks
  265. # [06:38] <Hixie> yes
  266. # [06:38] <Hixie> it's right there in the idl
  267. # [06:38] <Hixie> getter object (DOMString name);
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  269. # [06:46] <rniwa> Hixie: can I have a pointer?
  270. # [06:46] <Hixie> search for what i just pasted :-)
  271. # [06:46] <Hixie> it's in the Document idl block
  272. # [06:46] <rniwa> Hixie: ah, now i see it.
  273. # [06:47] <rniwa> Hixie: :( it's called named properties here
  274. # [06:47] <Hixie> ?
  275. # [06:47] <rniwa> that's why it wasn't hitting my search for "getters"
  276. # [06:47] <Hixie> how do you mean?
  277. # [06:47] <rniwa> or rather "accessors"
  278. # [06:47] <rniwa> Hixie: i was looking for named getters & named accessors
  279. # [06:48] <Hixie> ah
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  281. # [06:48] <rniwa> Hixie: it seems like there are a lot of synonymous for this thing
  282. # [06:48] <Hixie> well this is just webidl syntax
  283. # [06:49] <zcorpan> Hixie: wait, we can't use RESOLVED FIXED for fixed bugs now?
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  285. # [06:50] <Hixie> trying to get clarity on this from the chairs
  286. # [06:50] <Hixie> i expect we'll clone the bugs
  287. # [06:50] <Hixie> so that they don't get lost
  288. # [06:51] <zcorpan> is the w3c spec frozen?
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  290. # [06:54] <Hixie> not frozen, but it doesn't currently have an editor
  291. # [06:55] <zcorpan> you don't push updates to it anymore?
  292. # [06:58] <Hixie> no
  293. # [06:58] <Hixie> the chairs asked me to stop a while back
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  295. # [06:58] <zcorpan> ok
  296. # [06:58] <Hixie> (i finally got around to updating my script recently, after going through the bulk of bug report e-mails)
  297. # [06:59] <Hixie> (so that i didn't have to find a way to get the e-mails into bug form)
  298. # [07:00] <zcorpan> i wonder how long the chairs will take to decide on the bugs thing, having fixed ones stay open seems annoying for me
  299. # [07:01] <Hixie> sounded like they were going to come to a decision pretty quickly
  300. # [07:01] <zcorpan> good
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  302. # [07:03] <Hixie> oh sweet lord
  303. # [07:03] <Hixie> MPEG2 is EVEN WORSE
  304. # [07:04] <Hixie> also wtf is with these standards organisations that DON'T PUT THEIR STANDARDS ON THE WEB
  305. # [07:04] <Hixie> wtf is the point of a standard YOU CAN'T READ
  306. # [07:05] <zcorpan> is mpeg2 something we need to support?
  307. # [07:05] <Hixie> mpeg2 is what tv stations use, i believe
  308. # [07:05] <Hixie> so it's likely that most uses of the feature i'm speccing will use mpeg2
  309. # [07:05] <Hixie> note that i'm not convinced anyone will actually ever use this
  310. # [07:07] <roc> as I'm sure you know, selling copies of standards was (is) a common business model for standards bodies to fund themselves
  311. # [07:07] <Hixie> such standards bodies are idiots.
  312. # [07:08] <Hixie> or at least, seriously misguided
  313. # [07:08] <Hixie> and somewhat lacking in understanding as to how standards work
  314. # [07:08] <Hixie> (then again, i don't understand why standards bodies need funding. all you need is to pay for a web host and that's pretty cheap these days.)
  315. # [07:09] <roc> bureaucracy
  316. # [07:09] <roc> it costs money
  317. # [07:09] <Hixie> bureaucracy is not required to write a standard.
  318. # [07:09] <Hixie> in fact, it only detracts from it.
  319. # [07:10] <roc> I think you're preaching to the choir here
  320. # [07:10] <Hixie> yes. :-)
  321. # [07:10] <Hixie> just venting
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  325. # [07:20] <Hixie> zcorpan: (oh, and canvas stopped updating even longer ago)
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  327. # [07:20] <MikeSmith> Hixie: http://mumudvb.braice.net/mumudrupal/sites/default/files/iso13818-1.pdf
  328. # [07:21] <Hixie> ooh
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  330. # [07:21] <MikeSmith> that's just part 1, I think
  331. # [07:21] <MikeSmith> apparently there are 7 or more parts to it
  332. # [07:22] <Hixie> apparently i need the "Systems" chapter
  333. # [07:22] <Hixie> (?)
  334. # [07:23] <Hixie> which that seems to be
  335. # [07:23] <Hixie> let me see if it has what i need
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  337. # [07:24] <Hixie> oh i think i read this spec once
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  341. # [07:31] <zcorpan> Hixie: but fixed canvas bugs are not left open?
  342. # [07:31] <Hixie> i don't think i've fixed any since then have i?
  343. # [07:31] <zcorpan> dunno
  344. # [07:32] <Hixie> it's always possible i've accidentally closed some, especially if it was back when i still thought we'd resolve the canvas issue before we forked
  345. # [07:32] <Hixie> i kinda assume they're going to take all the changes
  346. # [07:32] <Hixie> if they're not, they'll probably have bigger problems
  347. # [07:33] <Hixie> than a few missed bugs
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  350. # [07:40] <zcorpan> WONTFIX resolutions are OK?
  351. # [07:42] <Hixie> probably not, but i told the chairs about that one
  352. # [07:42] <Hixie> it seemed pretty uncontroversial, other than you disagreeing with me :-)
  353. # [07:44] <zcorpan> yeah imma spend days ISSUEing and CPing over it
  354. # [07:44] <Hixie> :-)
  355. # [07:46] <MikeSmith> zcorpan: If you need any secret backroom deals later to get an extension, lemme know
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  357. # [07:46] <Hixie> so THAT's how hober and the a11y people are getting all these extensions
  358. # [07:46] <zcorpan> MikeSmith: shhh!
  359. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> whoops yeah I guess it's not secret any more
  360. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> damn
  361. # [07:48] <MikeSmith> can always count on dude to provide the lulz
  362. # [07:48] <MikeSmith> at his own expense
  363. # [07:51] <MikeSmith> Hixie: oh I see you did manage to find the MPEG-2 info you needed
  364. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> hahaha "I have no idea what I'm doing here."
  365. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> somebody's going to quote you on that man
  366. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> out of context of course
  367. # [07:53] <MikeSmith> well, I will at least
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  369. # [07:55] <zcorpan> i already tweeted it
  370. # [08:00] <MikeSmith> I'm saving it for a future CP
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  385. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> am I missing some context for http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2012Jun/0119.html ?
  386. # [08:56] * g4_away is now known as g4
  387. # [08:56] <webben> MikeSmith: I'm guessing "lightweight JSON objects" are the Canvas regions that have ARIA roles but not associated elements.
  388. # [08:57] <webben> MikeSmith: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-canvas-element.html#hit-region's-unbacked-region-description
  389. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> hey it's webben
  390. # [08:58] <webben> hey :)
  391. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> webben: thanks for the pointer
  392. # [08:59] <webben> yw
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  404. # [09:18] <Stevef> mikesmith: it's the half baked part of the canvas additions where there is no agreement or information about how it will work and whether the regions will be focusable or not
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  407. # [09:23] <MikeSmith> Stevef: I don't see what it has to do with JSON but OK
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  409. # [09:26] <Stevef> MikeSmith: mentioned here at F2F http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20120503#l-1083
  410. # [09:27] <webben> Yes. Strictly speaking they are effectively DOM properties of the <canvas> element, not "JSON".
  411. # [09:27] <MikeSmith> Stevef: ah, OK
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  415. # [09:28] <Stevef> mikesmith: there is other discussion can't find at the mo'
  416. # [09:29] <MikeSmith> Stevef: I understand the context now
  417. # [09:30] <MikeSmith> just, using that inaccurate terminology to describe it doesn't help
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  424. # [09:45] <Stevef> mikesmith: json idea originally floated by philip http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120223#l-117
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  429. # [09:50] <MikeSmith> Stevef: I see
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  454. # [10:35] <wirepair> man, CORS sure has made it easy to execute XSS against people who think passing parts of the URI to XHR is a Good Idea(tm)
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  456. # [10:35] <wirepair> s/people/sites
  457. # [10:39] <annevk> passing parts of the URI directly is never a good idea
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  460. # [10:41] <wirepair> of course not but CORS makes it much easier to get third party script code executed via an XHR call than without CORS support
  461. # [10:42] <annevk> zcorpan: retweeted from @whatwg
  462. # [10:42] <annevk> wirepair: yeah and new HTML features make it easier to bypass blacklist-based filtering
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  464. # [10:43] * wirepair shrugs
  465. # [10:43] <wirepair> if you're blacklisting you're doing it wrong :>
  466. # [10:44] <annevk> if you're reusing parts of the URL without checking you're doing it wrong too
  467. # [10:44] <wirepair> in that we agree as well :>
  468. # [10:46] <zcorpan> XDomainRequest doesn't have that problem
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  470. # [10:46] <zcorpan> (at least so long as XHR didn't support CORS in ie)
  471. # [10:47] <wirepair> yeah prob is people forget that xhr can now load from 3rd party sites
  472. # [10:47] <wirepair> so all taht old code is suddenly vulnerable
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  474. # [10:50] <zcorpan> yes, and when i first saw this problem being discussed, the proposed fix was *still* vulnerable because the guy who proposed the fix didn't know that urls like "//example.org" work
  475. # [10:50] <zcorpan> (the fix being "just prepend a slash and you'll be fine")
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  479. # [10:53] <wirepair> fantastic. :)
  480. # [10:53] <annevk> wirepair: hmm yeah, I guess it's too late now :(
  481. # [10:56] <wirepair> well yeah, i mean it's how CORS works so not really sure what you could even do.
  482. # [10:58] <annevk> well for XHR we could have had a different way to get access to CORS
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  533. # [12:43] <zcorpan> anyone have advice for this guy? (redirect and appcache) http://forums.whatwg.org/bb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5022
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  547. # [13:25] <niloy> zcorpan, move resources to cdn maybe?
  548. # [13:29] <zcorpan> niloy: feel free to reply in the forum :-)
  549. # [13:30] <niloy> zcorpan, sure :)
  550. # [13:30] <zcorpan> thanks
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  586. # [15:12] <gsnedders> jgraham: given you were asking yesterday, https://groups.google.com/d/msg/mozilla.dev.tech.js-engine/yYQyMCcMf-0/c1kHxnhOUlYJ
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  667. # [18:02] <Stevef> no meeting this week
  668. # [18:02] <Stevef> sorry wrong window
  669. # [18:03] <Ms2ger> No meeting here either :):
  670. # [18:03] * Ms2ger wonders why he has eyes on his chin
  671. # [18:05] <jgraham> Practising canibalism?
  672. # [18:05] <Ms2ger> Not usually
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  680. # [18:15] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
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  757. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> "When rendering li elements, user agents are expected to use the ordinal value of the li element to render the counter in the list item marker."
  758. # [20:05] <Ms2ger> "If the parent element is an ol element, then the li element has an ordinal value."
  759. # [20:06] <Ms2ger> If the parent element is *not* an ol element, what is rendered?
  760. # [20:10] * jondong is now known as Guest74715
  761. # [20:12] <Hixie> if the parente lement is not an ol element, there's no counter in the list item marker
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  766. # [20:14] <Ms2ger> <ol><div><li>A</div></ol>
  767. # [20:15] <Ms2ger> Should that have a number anywhere, and if so, where?
  768. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> Yes, before the A.
  769. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> Which number?
  770. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> The <li> generates a marker, and inherits a numeric type from <ol>
  771. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> 1.
  772. # [20:16] <Ms2ger> Now, <ol><div><li>A</div> <li>B</ol>
  773. # [20:16] <TabAtkins> The counter from <ol> isn't distrubed by having the <div> come between it and the <li>.
  774. # [20:17] <Ms2ger> You say 1. A / 2. B?
  775. # [20:17] <TabAtkins> If my mental model of the parser is right, sure. If you give me the DOM produced, I can tell you for sure.
  776. # [20:17] <gavinc> Sometimes validator.nu is a bit... amusing The encoding "utf-8" is not the preferred name of the character encoding in use. The preferred name is utf-8
  777. # [20:18] <Ms2ger> Yeah, nothing special going on in the parser here
  778. # [20:18] <Ms2ger> Now, <ol reversed><div><li>A</div> <li>B</ol>
  779. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> The <ol> genreates a fresh counter scope. Each <li> increments it.
  780. # [20:18] <TabAtkins> Ah, fun fun. Depends on how you implement @reversed.
  781. # [20:19] <Ms2ger> Not with CSS counters, because I'm told those can't reverse
  782. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> They can, but you have to have a starting value.
  783. # [20:19] <TabAtkins> You can say "start at 5, and each counter adds -1".
  784. # [20:20] * Joins: fantasai (fantasai@freenet6.org)
  785. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> You can?
  786. # [20:20] <Ms2ger> Hi fantasai
  787. # [20:20] <TabAtkins> Yeah, the counter-increment property takes any integer.
  788. # [20:20] <fantasai> hi Ms2ger :)
  789. # [20:21] <fantasai> TabAtkins: where are you?
  790. # [20:21] <TabAtkins> In the google office.
  791. # [20:21] <Ms2ger> <TabAtkins_> fantasai: I'm in the google office. Where's the moz office, and how do I get in?
  792. # [20:21] <fantasai> TabAtkins: is our phone dead again :/
  793. # [20:21] <fantasai> s/our/your/
  794. # [20:22] <TabAtkins> fantasai: Nearly, so I've turned it off.
  795. # [20:22] * fantasai sent a text with instructions half an hour ago
  796. # [20:22] <fantasai> ~_~
  797. # [20:22] <Ms2ger> Hmm, I didn't know we were right on the waterfront
  798. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I was talking with Ojan and Tony when I got in anyway.
  799. # [20:23] * fantasai didn't know they were in sf
  800. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Yup!
  801. # [20:23] <fantasai> anyway!
  802. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Do I need security or something to get up to floor 7?
  803. # [20:23] <TabAtkins> Or do you just want to come down and get me?
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  805. # [20:23] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, however, ol isn't specced in terms of CSS counters
  806. # [20:24] <fantasai> No, and we don't ask you to sign an NDA that you're legally incapable of signing, either :P
  807. # [20:24] <TabAtkins> kk, I'll be up in a sec then.
  808. # [20:24] <fantasai> Ms2ger: if it's specced using display: list-item, then it will be in L3
  809. # [20:24] <fantasai> Ms2ger: using an implied counter
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  811. # [20:25] <fantasai> right, so I was going to ask a question ...
  812. # [20:25] <fantasai> hsivonen: Is it intentional that </ins> gets ignored when </p> is implicit?
  813. # [20:25] <fantasai> hsivonen: http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?%3C!DOCTYPE%20html%3E%0A%0A%3Cins%3E%3Cp%3Einserted%3C%2Fins%3E%0A%0A%3Cp%3Enot%20inserted
  814. # [20:25] <Ms2ger> Well, it has display: list-item, but with an override for the counter
  815. # [20:26] <[tm]> gavinc: file a bug. our maybe there is actually an open bug on that one already
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  820. # [20:29] <fantasai> Ms2ger: for 'start' and 'value', you mean?
  821. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> And reversed
  822. # [20:29] <fantasai> ah, right
  823. # [20:29] <fantasai> that one, we can't do in CSS yet
  824. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> Hah
  825. # [20:29] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins just claimed he can
  826. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> But if bz and fantasai can't do it... :)
  827. # [20:30] <fantasai> you can count backwards :)
  828. # [20:30] <fantasai> that's easy
  829. # [20:30] <fantasai> but you need to know what number to start at
  830. # [20:30] <fantasai> and that's not possible afaik
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  832. # [20:30] <TabAtkins> fantasai: I'm in the lobby.
  833. # [20:30] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins (~tabatkins@nat/mozilla
  834. # [20:31] <Ms2ger> Welcome to the bright side, sir
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  836. # [20:32] <Ms2ger> fantasai, well, you can count the
  837. # [20:32] <Ms2ger> Wrong button
  838. # [20:32] <Ms2ger> Another case
  839. # [20:32] <Ms2ger> <ol><div style=display:list-item>A</div><li>B</ol>
  840. # [20:32] * Joins: hij1nx (~hij1nx@166.137.86.64)
  841. # [20:33] * fantasai notes that Ms2ger got both of us to lol
  842. # [20:33] <Ms2ger> Always glad to do that, m'lady
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  845. # [20:38] <Hixie> Ms2ger: sorry, was afk
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  847. # [20:39] <Hixie> Ms2ger: looks like the spec should say the ordinal value is 1 if there's no parent ol.
  848. # [20:40] <Hixie> Ms2ger: note that if the author uses css counters to override the default rendering, the numbers won't match, since css doesn't provide a way to get the ordinal value at the moment
  849. # [20:40] <jgraham> I have been told that webkit does something weird for @reversed like making the start value CSS dependant
  850. # [20:41] <Ms2ger> So, <ol><div><li>A</div><div><li>B</div></ol>
  851. # [20:41] <Hixie> it's not just reversed="" that causes problems, also display:none and so on
  852. # [20:42] <Hixie> bbiab
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  854. # [20:46] <pablof> has there been any additional work on appcache's prefer-online since http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7135&to=7136 ?
  855. # [20:46] <pablof> can't seem to find most of that text in the spec
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  857. # [20:46] <pablof> (tangentially, is there a place to do a blame on the svn files somewhere online?)
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  859. # [20:48] <jgraham> You want a web service that does something like 'def get_blame:return "Hixie"'?
  860. # [20:48] * Joins: mfb (~mark@j0.ramona.indybay.org)
  861. # [20:49] <jgraham> (yeah, I know svn blame does more than that :p)
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  863. # [20:50] <pablof> i'm after the commit/diff, not the author, we all know who to blame :P
  864. # [20:51] <jgraham> I doubt anyone provides that
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  866. # [20:51] <jgraham> I imagine it is slow to compute
  867. # [20:52] <jgraham> No one even provides a convenient git-svn version of the spec :(
  868. # [20:54] <Ms2ger> Hixie has per-1000-commit blames cached somewhere
  869. # [20:54] <Ms2ger> But I always forget where
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  921. # [22:14] <Hixie> Ms2ger, pablof: http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/blame.r5000 is available, for various values of 5000
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  924. # [22:16] <Hixie> blame.r0005 blame.r0954 blame.r2200 blame.r2800 blame.r3000 blame.r4667 blame.r5372 blame.r7000 blame.r0050 blame.r1000 blame.r2216 blame.r2905 blame.r3075 blame.r5000 blame.r5600 blame.r6400 blame.r0500 blame.r2000 blame.r2500 blame.r2947 blame.r4000 blame.r5287 blame.r6000 blame.r6666
  925. # [22:16] <Hixie> er let me sort that and try again
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  927. # [22:16] <Hixie> blame.r0005 blame.r0050 blame.r0500 blame.r0954 blame.r1000 blame.r2000 blame.r2200 blame.r2216 blame.r2500 blame.r2800 blame.r2905 blame.r2947
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  929. # [22:16] <Hixie> blame.r3000 blame.r3075 blame.r4000 blame.r4667 blame.r5000 blame.r5287 blame.r5372 blame.r5600 blame.r6000 blame.r6400 blame.r6666 blame.r7000
  930. # [22:17] <Hixie> (some of the more weird numbers like 2947 and 5287 correspond to diffs where a lot changed for editorial reasons so they come up often in archeology)
  931. # [22:17] <Hixie> feel free to document this on the wiki if you want btw
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  934. # [22:19] <pablof> thanks
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  937. # [22:22] <pablof> Hixie: were there any changes in the spec recently on appcache's prefer-online?
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  939. # [22:27] <Hixie> pablof: well it was added to the spec...
  940. # [22:27] <Hixie> pablof: how recently do you mean?
  941. # [22:28] <pablof> Hixie: i mean that i can't seem to find the text added in http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker?from=7135&to=7136
  942. # [22:29] <pablof> let me re-check in the one-page one, in case i'm dumb
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  944. # [22:30] <pablof> Hixie: yeah, never mind, the parts i was looking for weren't in the application cache section, sorry about that
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  946. # [22:30] <pablof> doh
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  954. # [22:48] <Hixie> pablof: ah ok
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  995. # [23:40] <Hixie> AryehGregor: you around? got some questions about drag and drop and contenteditable (in case you are and want to pretend you're not ;-) )
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  999. # [23:53] * jgraham would totally always pretend to be away rather than answer questions about contenteditable or drag and drop
  1000. # [23:54] <Hixie> yeah me too
  1001. # [23:55] <Hixie> hence me letting him know :-)
  1002. # [23:55] <jgraham> Also, I wonder what would happen if web developers saw that the HTML spec specifically thanks the inventors of the drag and drop API. I expect it would involve pitch forks and buring torches
  1003. # [23:55] <jgraham> Or failing that some mild sarcasm on twitter
  1004. # [23:56] <jgraham> 21st century revolution style
  1005. # [23:58] <Hixie> lol
  1006. # [23:58] <Hixie> dnd has been dramatically improved
  1007. # [23:58] <Hixie> with draggable and dragzone
  1008. # [23:58] <Hixie> it might even be possible to use it now
  1009. # Session Close: Fri Jun 29 00:00:01 2012

The end :)