/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-07-31 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Jul 31 00:00:01 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  7. # [00:13] <Hixie> wow, i accidentally started a whole conversation of confusion there
  8. # [00:13] <Hixie> sorry about that
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  10. # [00:16] <Hixie> hober: you editors had your meeting yet?
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  52. # [01:17] <UltraParadigm> Will my webpage look right in windows xp ie if I use <header> <footer> instead of <div>
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  54. # [01:23] <zewt> if you care about how your page looks in a browser, you're going to need to test in that browser :)
  55. # [01:26] <UltraParadigm> Yeah that's the best way but i think it's a pain in the butt get old version of IE.
  56. # [01:26] <gsnedders> UltraParadigm: Do you mean IE6/7/8?
  57. # [01:27] <UltraParadigm> I don't even use windows anymore except at work. We still have some xp at work u guess I can use to test.
  58. # [01:27] <zewt> if you aren't going to test in it yourself, you may as well give up, heh
  59. # [01:29] <UltraParadigm> yeah, alot of the world still uses xp unfortunatly, probably a good 30% at my work
  60. # [01:29] <UltraParadigm> Yeah gs
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  62. # [01:30] <UltraParadigm> Gsnedders: ms wont let xp users upgrade to a html5 version if ie.
  63. # [01:30] <gsnedders> UltraParadigm: No, I meant, which IE versions do you care about?
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  66. # [01:34] <UltraParadigm> 7 and 8.
  67. # [01:35] <gsnedders> Okay, IE8 is fine. IE7 you can fool into working by creating such elements through scripts before the actual elements in the page.
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  70. # [01:35] <UltraParadigm> Hopefully everyone has upgraded past 6 by now. Although I know at my last job (cable vision tech support) they still had it. Too bad for them
  71. # [01:35] <gsnedders> <script>document.createElement("header");</script><header>foo</header> parses differently to just <header>foo</header>
  72. # [01:36] <UltraParadigm> Gsnedders: neat!
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  83. # [02:02] <Hixie> aim:setstatus?message=wtf
  84. # [02:02] <Hixie> who designed this protocol
  85. # [02:03] <abarth> for real?
  86. # [02:04] <Hixie> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:http://dev.estage.aol.com/aimclient/OpenAIM182/technotes/AIMURL.html
  87. # [02:05] <abarth> AddBuddy?
  88. # [02:05] <abarth> :)
  89. # [02:05] <Hixie> also, jabber uses "jabber:" schemes for their namespace
  90. # [02:05] <abarth> is this actually used for something?
  91. # [02:05] <Hixie> abarth: apparently it's what the aim client supports
  92. # [02:06] <Hixie> i wonder how many people have yelled at the jabber folk for not buying into the distributed extensibility nonsense
  93. # [02:07] <abarth> I think we've got aim blacklisted in the external protocol handler\
  94. # [02:08] <Hixie> seems wise
  95. # [02:08] <gavinc> Hixie: errr, they did buy into it
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  99. # [02:13] <zewt> i've yelled at the jabber folk for their specs being a huge mass of "should" and "may"
  100. # [02:13] <zewt> total nightmare to do anything with
  101. # [02:15] <zewt> found their responsiveness to spec issues to be near-zero so i stopped bothering
  102. # [02:15] <Hixie> gavinc: "jabber:" isn't "distributed extensibility" (e.g. using dns), it's "landgrab namespacing" (what i advocate)
  103. # [02:15] <zewt> (seemed like a dead project, really, which is probably pretty much what xmpp is)
  104. # [02:18] <gavinc> Hixie: are we talking about the same thing? Jabber uses XML Namespaces
  105. # [02:18] <TabAtkins> Hixie's talking about the url protocol.
  106. # [02:19] <gavinc> aaaaahhh
  107. # [02:19] <gavinc> thank you :D
  108. # [02:20] <Hixie> actually you're both wrong :-)
  109. # [02:20] <Hixie> i'm talking about the url they use in their namespaces
  110. # [02:20] <TabAtkins> Oh!
  111. # [02:20] <gavinc> Oh!
  112. # [02:20] <Hixie> e.g. xmlns="jabber:client"
  113. # [02:20] <TabAtkins> JYNX
  114. # [02:20] <Hixie> which is pretty much exactly what i'd advocate, but nonetheless completely misses the point of distributed extensibility
  115. # [02:21] <TabAtkins> Or "jinx", rather.
  116. # [02:21] <TabAtkins> They're still going too far, imo. Their ns should just be "jabber".
  117. # [02:21] * boaz is now known as boaz|away
  118. # [02:21] <Hixie> well they don't really need namespaces at all, imho
  119. # [02:21] <Hixie> but that's another story
  120. # [02:21] <TabAtkins> Sure.
  121. # [02:22] <Hixie> (using xml for a stream-orientated protocol is pretty nutty)
  122. # [02:22] <zewt> there are a ton of namespaces in xmpp, though, not just those
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  129. # [02:28] <Hixie> in other news, this table has had me as its bitch all day and i have only finally defeated it. http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#autofill-field
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  131. # [02:31] <Hixie> btw if there are any chrome qa people around who want something to do, the "M" in the "Mlle" example in that table is vertically aligned incorrectly
  132. # [02:31] <Hixie> i've been unable to determine why, but haven't looked closely
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  152. # [03:12] <jamesr_> Hixie, what platform are you seeing bad alignment on?
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  154. # [03:13] <jamesr_> you mean the "M<sup>lle</sup?" entry, right?
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  161. # [03:21] <Hixie> jamesr_: mac and yes
  162. # [03:21] <Hixie> jamesr_: dev branch chrome
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  165. # [03:23] <jamesr_> ah i see it now - it's a bit lower than it should be, right?
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  189. # [04:04] <gavinc> ugh, balancing change/new features and doing what already works is very annoying.
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  272. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I wonder if the < 1 validations per second data you're seeing is due to the server hardware
  273. # [08:45] <MikeSmith> I'm seeing more like 1.9 validations per second
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  278. # [08:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: unlikely. e.g. validating the front page of my site takes 44 milliseconds
  279. # [08:51] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: and the server is configured for concurrency
  280. # [08:51] <MikeSmith> OK
  281. # [08:52] <hsivonen> also, the CPU load is very low
  282. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: well we have some fairly beefy hardware behind the W3C service, and the data is pretty consistent across the majority of the hosts
  283. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: OK
  284. # [08:53] <MikeSmith> anyway, the W3C stats show those hosts consistently doing about 1.9 validations per second
  285. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> based on roughly 115,000 validations so for
  286. # [08:54] <MikeSmith> 0.71 days
  287. # [08:55] <hsivonen> ok
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  289. # [08:56] <hsivonen> the *completely* unused features so far: XHTML output, SVG schema, custom Schematron
  290. # [08:57] <MikeSmith> yeah that's as expected I guess
  291. # [08:58] <hsivonen> I expected someone to validate an occasional SVG file
  292. # [08:58] <hsivonen> I expected the legacy XHTML+SVG+MathML schema to be used less than the SVG schema
  293. # [08:58] <MikeSmith> OK
  294. # [08:59] <shepazu> I'm surprised that nobody's tried to validate SVG… is that what you're saying?
  295. # [08:59] <hsivonen> as for HTML vs. XML input, HTML is more than 99%
  296. # [08:59] <hsivonen> (Occupy XML)
  297. # [08:59] <hsivonen> shepazu: yes
  298. # [08:59] <shepazu> huh!
  299. # [08:59] <MikeSmith> shepazu: raw data is here: http://validator.nu/stats.html
  300. # [08:59] <hsivonen> and http://html5.validator.nu/stats.html
  301. # [09:00] <shepazu> oh, I believe you… I just went for years without an SVG validator, I never got in the habit myself (I just used XML validation when needed)
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  303. # [09:01] <shepazu> 9K validations doesn't seem like much… what time period, out of curiosity?
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  305. # [09:02] <hsivonen> shepazu: see "Uptime in days" (which is < 1)
  306. # [09:02] <shepazu> oh
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  317. # [09:34] <hsivonen> Underspecified feature request is underspecified: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=18439
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  323. # [09:42] <rniwa> hsivonen: i can't even comprehend that sentence :(
  324. # [09:42] <rniwa> that is… the bug title.
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  335. # [10:07] <MikeSmith> hsivonen: I don't know if you noticed yet but the settings for the filter feature of http://validator.keegan.st/ are persistent
  336. # [10:09] <MikeSmith> as in, once you filter out a certain class of errors, it's going to filter those out for you automatically from then on
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  341. # [10:13] <hsivonen> I should pay more attention to the validator diagnostics. V.nu has been crashing due to an NPE that MikeSmith fixed over a month ago, because I had failed to redeploy after the fix
  342. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> damn
  343. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> sorry man
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  393. # [12:14] <hoolter1> are opening and closing <html> tags required?
  394. # [12:14] <hoolter1> or are they implicit?
  395. # [12:16] <jgraham> Impolicit
  396. # [12:16] <jgraham> *Implicit
  397. # [12:16] <hoolter1> jgraham: cool.
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  399. # [12:16] <hoolter1> jgraham: but then how can one specify doc language?
  400. # [12:16] <hoolter1> jgraham: any way?
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  402. # [12:19] <hoolter1> iis it possible to read a file that your user DnD'd, then have the user open said file in, say, notepad, modify + save the file, and then for you to read the new changes without the user having to re-DnD the file again?
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  410. # [12:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: it was my fault I didn't pay attention to diagnostics. the HTTP client had spammed me enough that it had taught me not to take the log4j emails too seriously :-(
  411. # [12:40] <hsivonen> MikeSmith: I guess I should upgrade to HttpClient 4.1
  412. # [12:40] <hsivonen> turns out the API has changed
  413. # [12:40] <hsivonen> not just a matter of changing package names
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  422. # [12:58] <AryehGregor> hoolter, "doc language"?
  423. # [12:59] <AryehGregor> hoolter, for the latter question -- probably not. That sounds like it would be a security vulnerability.
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  426. # [12:59] <AryehGregor> Although maybe you can, I don't know.
  427. # [12:59] <AryehGregor> I take that back, yeah.
  428. # [12:59] <AryehGregor> I doubt browsers copy the file.
  429. # [12:59] <AryehGregor> Dunno how it works.
  430. # [12:59] <AryehGregor> What API are you using to read the file?
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  439. # [13:28] <hoolter> AryehGregor: i've heard probably yes and probably no but i'm looking for someone who could tellme for sure.
  440. # [13:29] <hoolter> and i meant <html lang=en>
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  442. # [13:29] <AryehGregor> hoolter, well, you can't omit the root tag if you want to specify any attributes on it. You can still omit the end tag.
  443. # [13:29] <AryehGregor> If you want lang=en on the root element, you can't omit <html>, no.
  444. # [13:29] <AryehGregor> You could put it on <body>, although then you can't omit <body>.
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  446. # [13:30] <AryehGregor> hoolter, with respect to the file question: what API are you using to read the file?
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  451. # [13:42] <hoolter> AryehGregor: so I can have the following as my entire file and it's all totally fine then? | <!doctype html><html lang=en><meta charset=utf-8><title>t</title><p>hello, world!</p>
  452. # [13:43] <hoolter> AryehGregor: IDK. I'm just wondering if it's possible at all. See this video... just watch the first 25s of it or so, it's incredible. but i can't reproduce it or wrap my mind around how it could work. you know? www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY56fNmn2cE&feature=player_embedded
  453. # [13:44] <AryehGregor> hoolter, yes, that's valid. Enter it into http://html5.validator.nu/ and see for yourself. The shortest valid HTML document is: <!doctype html><title></title>
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  455. # [13:48] <hoolter> AryehGregor: sweet. do u mind checking the video? It is fairly cool regardless of my question.
  456. # [13:48] <AryehGregor> hoolter, I have other things I'm doing right now. If you have specific questions beyond what you've already asked, feel free to ask.
  457. # [13:48] <hsivonen> Now I remember why I went upgraded to HttpClient 4.1 yet. It's even more complicated to use than 3.1.
  458. # [13:49] <hsivonen> s/went/haven't/
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  465. # [14:00] <hoolter1> AryehGregor: well i mean, is what i described possible using any api whatsoever that's thus yet been implemented by a version of chromium?
  466. # [14:00] <AryehGregor> hoolter1, 1) I don't know offhand, 2) what does Chromium have to do with it? This is a standards channel.
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  470. # [14:07] <hoolter> AryehGregor: well that's the one that was used to demo the feature in the video. presumably it's at least a proposed standard of some sort.
  471. # [14:07] <AryehGregor> Probably.
  472. # [14:07] <AryehGregor> There are various file-related APIs floating around, I haven't been keeping track.
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  477. # [14:18] <hoolter> AryehGregor: ah, ok.
  478. # [14:22] <smaug____> hoolter: yes, chrome implements some file system APIs
  479. # [14:22] <smaug____> I don't think anyone else is going to implement those APIs
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  481. # [14:22] <smaug____> (but there will be some other file handling related APIs )
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  539. # [17:05] <zewt> heh alt/title thread going on right when i hit a curious bit of nonsense
  540. # [17:06] <zewt> http://valgrind.org/docs/manual/dist.news.html has title="2. NEWS" on the whole thing, which apparently means that no matter where I idle the mouse, a "2. NEWS" tooltip pops up
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  542. # [17:06] <zewt> (in Chrome, anyway)
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  547. # [17:11] <zewt> now, if @title had simply been named @tooltip, nobody would be getting confused and thinking @title means something like "title for this section", heh
  548. # [17:12] <zewt> ("but it might be displayed as something other than a tooltip!" ... that doesn't matter! heh)
  549. # [17:12] <odinho> heh. People.
  550. # [17:12] <jgraham> Maybe it shoudl have been named @banana
  551. # [17:13] <zewt> (because that would have been informative)
  552. # [17:16] <jgraham> Well it would stop people reading things into the name
  553. # [17:16] <zewt> reading things into the name is fine, if it's at least the right ballpark
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  556. # [17:22] <karlcow> @hint ?
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  559. # [17:23] <zewt> not like we can change it :)
  560. # [17:23] <karlcow> we can… it depends on the choices of life ;) being compatible or not with the deployed Web.
  561. # [17:24] <karlcow> being irrelevant as an art of life.
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  564. # [17:26] <zewt> well, we already know the answer to that, heh
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  587. # [17:54] <Stevef> some examples of title duplicating text content http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/title-usage.html
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  601. # [18:12] <jgraham> Hixie: Was there some change recently to the spec regarding pushState and base URLs? I (think I) remember you mentioning it, but I can't find it right now
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  607. # [18:16] <jgraham> Ah http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120629#l-110
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  609. # [18:18] <Hixie> jgraham: for some definition of "recently", yes
  610. # [18:18] <Hixie> jgraham: basically the concept of "current document's address" is entirely removed
  611. # [18:18] <Hixie> jgraham: it's a pretty big simplification
  612. # [18:18] <Hixie> jgraham: (unfortunately seems to screw opera for following the spec, sorry about that)
  613. # [18:20] <jgraham> Hixie: Well a month ago is pretty recently
  614. # [18:20] <Hixie> k :-)
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  617. # [18:21] <jgraham> Well I was away for 2.5 weeks of that time as well :p
  618. # [18:21] <jgraham> So what's an observable change here?
  619. # [18:21] <Hixie> let me get you a test case, one sec
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  621. # [18:22] <Hixie> http://hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/dom/level0/history/pushState/
  622. # [18:22] <Hixie> warning, these tests seriously confuse the back button
  623. # [18:22] <jgraham> Great, thanks
  624. # [18:23] <jgraham> Heh
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  636. # [19:00] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  637. # [19:00] <edwardbc> morning
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  639. # [19:01] <Hixie> ok, i've added examples to the autocomplete field table. yay for timbl whose name has all the needed fields. :-)
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  665. # [19:22] <zewt> a new (gross) one to me: someone sending mail with code in it ... with syntax highlighting
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  690. # [20:22] <hober> Hixie: nope
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  699. # [20:34] <Hixie> hober: k
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  712. # [20:59] <Hixie> zewt: yt?
  713. # [20:59] <Hixie> zewt: re http://www.w3.org/mid/CABirCh-3Fa6xH=JA_j1b=d-7fGfrhAiG8WFUr=zbx0HDBGqEkQ@mail.gmail.com -- what do you mean by "header line"?
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  719. # [21:20] <zewt> Hixie: a line eaten by the "Header" section of the parser
  720. # [21:20] <Hixie> do you mean that this:
  721. # [21:21] <Hixie> WEBVTT
  722. # [21:21] <Hixie> language:fr
  723. # [21:21] <Hixie> timestamp --> timestamp
  724. # [21:21] <Hixie> foo
  725. # [21:21] <Hixie> ...would treat "language:fr" as a "header" line?
  726. # [21:21] <Hixie> rather than as an "id" line?
  727. # [21:21] <zewt> yes, though it looks correct in that instance
  728. # [21:21] <Hixie> ok
  729. # [21:21] <Hixie> RESOLVED Working As Intended
  730. # [21:21] <Hixie> :-)
  731. # [21:22] <zewt> i mean if the "language:fr" line was actually something meant to be a "text track cue identifier", eg. step 31
  732. # [21:23] <Hixie> well the file is non-conforming either way
  733. # [21:23] <Hixie> this is just error handling
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  735. # [21:23] <Hixie> for all we know, the line in question could be the cue text from some previous cue whose timestamp got croped
  736. # [21:23] <Hixie> cropped
  737. # [21:23] <zewt> huh? webvtt cue identifiers are in the syntax
  738. # [21:23] <Hixie> or it could be that the --> line is actually meant to be a comment
  739. # [21:24] <Hixie> the point is the file is invalid, so there's no way to know what the author meant
  740. # [21:24] <Hixie> we're just doing our best to salvage what we can from the mess
  741. # [21:24] <zewt> okay, looking at the syntax, the correct answer is "there should be a blank line before the first cue"
  742. # [21:25] * boaz|away is now known as boaz
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  744. # [21:27] <Hixie> right
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  747. # [21:29] <zewt> (followed up on the thread to close that out)
  748. # [21:31] <zewt> (guessing that'll be a common mistake, but probably a harmless one since cue ids are probably uncommon)
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  769. # [22:14] <Areks|2> Hello all.
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  774. # [22:16] <Areks|2> Who made markup for tablet with android?
  775. # [22:18] <Areks|2> I use "Times New Roman" font in design, and all devices display it correctly except android.
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  777. # [22:19] <Areks|2> Does anybody had same problem?
  778. # [22:21] <Wilto> Areks|2: Some older Androids will default to Droid Serif for all serifs and Droid Sans for all sans-serifs. It may not have Times New Roman installed.
  779. # [22:21] <Wilto> The #CSS channel is a more appropriate place for these sorts of questions -- hope that helps, though.
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  782. # [22:24] <Areks|2> Wilto: The problem is really interesting, because cyrillic symbols display correctly
  783. # [22:24] <Areks|2> Wilto: i'll try to ask on css, thanks
  784. # [22:25] <Wilto> No worries, man.
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  835. # Session Close: Wed Aug 01 00:00:05 2012

The end :)