/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2012-08-28 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Tue Aug 28 00:00:00 2012
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  29. # [01:14] <zewt> EVERYONE TALKING ABOUT THE PUSH API DRAFT (whatever that is, sounds like WebSockets) IS IMPRESSIVELY LOUD
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  31. # [01:15] * Hixie searches for "push api" in his inbox
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  34. # [01:15] <Hixie> oh you just mean their names
  35. # [01:16] <Hixie> oh god, more permission-based apis
  36. # [01:16] <Hixie> also, seriously, respec CONSIDERED HARMFUL
  37. # [01:16] <Hixie> _everyone_ who uses it ends up screwing up how they write a spec
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  39. # [01:18] <zewt> is that respec's fault or the fault of the category of people who decide to use respec? :)
  40. # [01:18] <zewt> (seems like "people who screw up writing a spec" is a pretty huge category to begin with)
  41. # [01:19] <Hixie> if the category of people who write good specs never use respec, that is also an indication of a problem with respec
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  45. # [01:25] <Yuhong> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ieinternals/archive/2012/08/28/custom-file-type-formats-renamed-to-zip-on-download-in-internet-explorer-when-application-octet-stream-is-used.aspx
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  47. # [01:27] <zewt> archived material from the future, MS has *all* the tech
  48. # [01:28] <TabAtkins> Looks like the date in the url is generated based on the UTC date, and it's already past midnight there. ^_^
  49. # [01:28] <zewt> also "And in the case of ZIP-based formats, the browser's technically right" no, the browser is technically an idiot and that behavior is always 100% wrong
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  52. # [01:29] <Yuhong> technically right in terms of it being openable by a zip reader.
  53. # [01:29] <zewt> i had to work around that idiocy way back when I had my own ZIP-based file format; had to fiddle with the header to keep it from happening (though I thought it was some ancient Safari that had that problem; this was years ago)
  54. # [01:30] <Yuhong> It is just not what you generally want to open the file with.
  55. # [01:31] <zewt> (also, "file starts with PK"? seriously? it thinks a text file that says "PKZIP rocks" is a ZIP?)
  56. # [01:31] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  57. # [01:32] <Hixie> zewt: windows thinks a file that starts with a "MZ IS AWESOME" is an executable...
  58. # [01:32] <zewt> (the header for ZIP is \x50\x4b\x03\x04)
  59. # [01:32] <Hixie> (iirc)
  60. # [01:33] <Hixie> (MZ is the DOS .exe header, iirc)
  61. # [01:33] <Yuhong> Yep.
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  63. # [01:38] <Yuhong> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2006/01/30/519388.aspx
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  70. # [01:44] <ojan> TabAtkins: how about s/scope-constrained/scope-filtered ?
  71. # [01:44] <ojan> TabAtkins: that's my mental model of it
  72. # [01:45] <TabAtkins> That's a better name, yeah.
  73. # [01:45] <ojan> TabAtkins: and what browsers would do in practice (match everything and filter out)
  74. # [01:46] <ojan> constrained and contained are practically synonyms to me :)
  75. # [01:47] <ojan> i'm glad we're solving this problem though...scope-contained >>> scope-filtered/scope-constrained IMO and should be the one we use wherever we're not constrained by back-compat
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  78. # [01:55] <TabAtkins> Scope-filtered is *useful*, and we should have it, but yeah, scope-contained is much more natural as a default.
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  91. # [02:17] <Yuhong> http://logbot.glob.com.au/?c=freenode%23whatwg&s=8+Aug+2012&e=8+Aug+2012#c712060
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  103. # [02:34] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-talk/1992MayJun/0022.html is amusing (i'm sure people have run into it before)
  104. # [02:35] * abstractj is now known as abstractj|away
  105. # [02:36] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-talk/1992JulAug/0017.html too
  106. # [02:36] <TabAtkins> Hixie: Your use-case for <font> was "the only element that allowed 'style'". When people pushed back and you made 'style' global, you killed <font> too.
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  108. # [02:37] <Hixie> ah yeah
  109. # [02:37] <Hixie> that sounds right
  110. # [02:37] <Hixie> oh right, <font> was the element that only generators could use or something
  111. # [02:37] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
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  154. # [06:03] <Hixie> anyone got IE handy?
  155. # [06:03] <Hixie> any version will do
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  158. # [06:13] <kennyluck> Hixie, I have IE9 here.
  159. # [06:17] <Hixie> what do you get on http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/document-write-and-scripts/002.html ?
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  161. # [06:17] <Hixie> (and what colour is the text)
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  163. # [06:19] <kennyluck> Hixie, text: "0 undefined 1" color: black
  164. # [06:19] <Hixie> wtf
  165. # [06:19] <Hixie> thanks
  166. # [06:20] <Hixie> same as firefox 3.6
  167. # [06:20] <Hixie> but different than webkit/opera (0 1 2) and different than modern firefox (0 2 2)
  168. # [06:20] <Hixie> i wonder if it's not blocking load on the style sheet or something
  169. # [06:22] <Hixie> kennyluck: if you're still there, can you try http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/document-write-and-scripts/002-long.html ?
  170. # [06:22] <Hixie> it'll dump a bunch of stuff
  171. # [06:22] <Hixie> if i could get you to /msg it to me that'd be awesome
  172. # [06:24] <Hixie> ohhhh
  173. # [06:24] <Hixie> i know what's wrong
  174. # [06:24] <Hixie> hang on
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  176. # [06:25] <mthz> is anyone aware of a copy of the html5lib tokenizer test data that is in alignment with the current spec?
  177. # [06:25] <mthz> the current tests are a mess, especially w/r/t error handling for entities
  178. # [06:25] <Hixie> kennyluck: can you try http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/document-write-and-scripts/002.html in IE now?
  179. # [06:26] <Hixie> kennyluck: (i'd forgotten to take out the console.log() calls which IE and old Firefoxen don't support)
  180. # [06:26] <kennyluck> Hixie, sure. 002-long.html gave http://pastebin.mozilla.org/1779848
  181. # [06:26] <mthz> or, does anyone which tests the following page even refer to (i.e. where can i get them?) http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Parser_tests
  182. # [06:27] <Hixie> mthz: that refers to the tests in the code.google.com repo for html5lib
  183. # [06:27] <kennyluck> Hixie, text "2 1 1" color: black
  184. # [06:27] <Hixie> kennyluck: !!
  185. # [06:27] <zewt> it's pretty (something) that even today you have to jump hoops to see console.log output on ios
  186. # [06:27] <Hixie> kennyluck: (you sure it's black and not dark blue?)
  187. # [06:27] <Hixie> kennyluck: "2 1 1" is typical IE behaviour. complete nonsense. :-P
  188. # [06:27] <kennyluck> Hixie, muh, I can't quite tell. Can you use another color or something.
  189. # [06:28] <Hixie> don't worry about it
  190. # [06:28] <Hixie> it's not critical
  191. # [06:28] <Hixie> oh... i see what it's doing
  192. # [06:28] <Hixie> interesting
  193. # [06:28] <kennyluck> Hixie, oh yeah. It's navy.
  194. # [06:28] <Hixie> k, cool, thanks
  195. # [06:31] <mthz> Hixie: Are you aware of a copy of those tests that mirrors the spec? They look way out of date. It even looks like the validator.nu code mimcs this behavior
  196. # [06:32] <Hixie> do you have an example of something out of date?
  197. # [06:32] <Hixie> i'm sure they're not perfectly up to date, but my understanding was that those were the latest tests
  198. # [06:32] <mthz> Yeah, or maybe I'm just misreading the spec.. I'll paste
  199. # [06:32] <mthz> Test: Entity in attribute without semicolon ending in i (test1.test): Input=<h a='&noti'>
  200. # [06:33] <mthz> It expects that to yield an error presumably b/c the matched entity didn't end with ';' and has ascii after the last match
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  202. # [06:33] <mthz> but the spec doesn't say to emit an error
  203. # [06:33] <mthz> bunch of entity related tests like that that all expect similar errors when my reading of the spec doesn't suggest there should be any
  204. # [06:35] * Hixie looks at the spec
  205. # [06:35] <Hixie> (in general i wouldn't be surprised if the error count was more out of date that the expected DOM tree, fwiw)
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  207. # [06:36] <mthz> i'm only running the tokenizer tests -- not the tree builder -- but yes, i agree. I think all of the out-datedness I've seen is related to error counts
  208. # [06:37] <Hixie> what does it say the output should be for that test?
  209. # [06:37] <mthz> "output":["ParseError", ["StartTag", "h", {"a":"&noti"}]]},
  210. # [06:37] <mthz> I think that's correct save for the parse error
  211. # [06:37] <Hixie> yeah, i think you're right
  212. # [06:37] <Hixie> do you know when the test was updated?
  213. # [06:38] <Hixie> that part of the spec was changed at some point
  214. # [06:38] <Hixie> to make it not an error
  215. # [06:38] <mthz> sep 24 2009 ;-)
  216. # [06:38] <mthz> makes sense then
  217. # [06:39] <mthz> I guess I'll compile a list of the ones I come across and log a bug for html5lib
  218. # [06:39] <Hixie> while you're at it, add a test for "&not=" (also not a parse error and not treated as an entity) if it's not there already
  219. # [06:40] <Hixie> that was changed april 2010
  220. # [06:41] <Hixie> looks like as of 2009 it was already not a parse error though
  221. # [06:41] <mthz> unfortunately I can't update the html5lib code itself -- probably a bad idea to update the tests and not fix the code
  222. # [06:41] <Hixie> well if the test is wrong the test is wrong :-)
  223. # [06:41] <mthz> heh
  224. # [06:42] <mthz> fwiw, not sure if you saw above, but Henry Sivonen's validator.nu code shows the same vehavior for all of the false negatives i've found
  225. # [06:42] <mthz> i'll send them mail
  226. # [06:42] <mthz> thanks hixie
  227. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> mthz: you know that's actually the same code that Firefox uses
  228. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> html parser code
  229. # [06:43] <mthz> Mike: the code is semantically correct -- it's merely error reporting which i don't think ever surfaces in the browser
  230. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> ah
  231. # [06:43] <MikeSmith> yeah, true
  232. # [06:43] <Hixie> ah i was wrong, the change was in r4960, also april 2010
  233. # [06:44] <Hixie> the change to make it not a parse error i mean
  234. # [06:44] <mthz> MikeSmith: random question, but do/did you work for google? i think we may have met before =)
  235. # [06:44] <Hixie> and r4959 was the revision that made = act like a-z in attributes
  236. # [06:45] <MikeSmith> mthz: there's a different Mike Smith who was a product manager for Chrome
  237. # [06:45] <Hixie> mthz: anyway, in any e-mail you said please let them know r4959 and r4960, to make it easier for them to track it
  238. # [06:45] <mthz> mike: ahh -- that's the one
  239. # [06:45] <mthz> hixie: will do.. thanks
  240. # [06:45] <Hixie> thank _you_!
  241. # [06:45] <mthz> for my own reference -- what repository do those revisions refer to?
  242. # [06:45] <Hixie> whatwg
  243. # [06:46] <Hixie> svn.whatwg.org/web-apps
  244. # [06:46] <mthz> figured.. thanks
  245. # [06:46] <mthz> later all
  246. # [06:46] <Hixie> later
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  249. # [06:49] <Hixie> why do Opera and Chrome (not Safari) return 0 for document.createElement('canvas').getContext('2d').moveTo.length
  250. # [06:50] <Hixie> Firefox and Safari get it right
  251. # [06:50] <Hixie> (2)
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  253. # [06:57] <Hixie> ok the change i just made to the spec is for a ridiculously complicated edge case. it's crazy that that is web-compat-critical.
  254. # [06:57] <heycam> O_o
  255. # [06:58] <Hixie> it's specifically for the case of an inline <script> that executes while the parser is re-entrantly parsing due to a document.write() call, in the case of there being a <link rel=styleesheet> pending that is itself blocking script execution.
  256. # [06:59] <Hixie> and it controls whether or not that nested inline script blocks or not.
  257. # [06:59] <Hixie> s/controls/affects/
  258. # [06:59] <heycam> oh, sorry I thought you specced the moveTo.length being 0
  259. # [06:59] <Hixie> the HTML parser, i mean
  260. # [06:59] <Hixie> heycam: no, no, that'd be crazy.
  261. # [06:59] <heycam> yes :)
  262. # [06:59] <zewt> yeah. *that* would be crazy
  263. # [06:59] <zewt> *cough*
  264. # [07:00] <Hixie> :-P
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  278. # [07:58] <annevk> Does anyone know what hg-git is called in MacPorts?
  279. # [08:01] * Quits: garciawebdev (~garciaweb@190.244.73.31) (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
  280. # [08:06] <MikeSmith> annevk: py27-hggit
  281. # [08:07] <annevk> Thanks, I ended up using easy_install
  282. # [08:09] <zcorpan> Hixie: opera gets .length wrong (is 0) all over the place. known bug, low prio.
  283. # [08:09] * Quits: Martin_L (~Martin_L@194.18.12.26) (Remote host closed the connection)
  284. # [08:11] <Hixie> it makes feature detection for new features that consisted of adding an optional argument harder
  285. # [08:11] <Hixie> if that helps bump up the prio
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  289. # [08:13] <annevk> MikeSmith: how do you authenticate for github?
  290. # [08:13] <MikeSmith> ssh
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  292. # [08:13] <annevk> MikeSmith: I have the hg push ssh+git:// thingie, but how do I pass username/password?
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  294. # [08:15] <annevk> ah found it
  295. # [08:16] <jgraham> Hixie: Does anyone apart from you try to do feature detection in that way? I imagine not if Chrome and Opera both get it wrong
  296. # [08:17] <Hixie> if opera and chrome didn't get it wrong, it would be a good way to do it for e.g. the new arcTo()
  297. # [08:17] <Hixie> but yeah, i don't think anyone actually does it
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  300. # [08:19] <jgraham> annevk: (I don't recommend the hg push ssh+git method, but if it worked for MikeSmith maybe it's fine)
  301. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> jgraham, annevk : what I'm using for the current mirroring to github/w3c is this:
  302. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> hg bookmark -d master
  303. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> hg bookmark -fr default master
  304. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> hg gexport
  305. # [08:20] <MikeSmith> git push github master
  306. # [08:21] <jgraham> Yes, I was going to say that hg gexport worked better for me
  307. # [08:21] <jgraham> I just had to look up what it was
  308. # [08:21] <annevk> my main problem is authentication
  309. # [08:21] <annevk> the rest seems to work fine
  310. # [08:22] <jgraham> Hmm, but for github authentication should be key-baed
  311. # [08:22] <jgraham> *key-based
  312. # [08:22] <jgraham> You shouldn't need to add username or pw anywhere
  313. # [08:23] <zcorpan> annevk: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20120827#l-771
  314. # [08:23] <jgraham> That is, if you set up the right keys on your computer per the instructions on github
  315. # [08:23] * Joins: jryans (~jryans@cpe-70-124-81-135.austin.res.rr.com)
  316. # [08:23] <jgraham> Then do what MikeSmith said up to the last but one step
  317. # [08:23] <annevk> github says https is recommended
  318. # [08:24] <jgraham> Then git remote add origin git@github.com:whatwg/dom.git
  319. # [08:24] <jgraham> git push -u origin master
  320. # [08:25] <jgraham> Since I just copied/pasted that bit from the github page I'm sure it's fine
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  325. # [08:30] <divya> jgraham: !!1 just wanted to check if you are on track to be in paris
  326. # [08:30] <divya> for the event
  327. # [08:31] <divya> and hoping you could give a talk too while at it
  328. # [08:32] <jgraham> divya: Yes, and yes
  329. # [08:32] * Joins: Ducki (~Ducki@pD9E39771.dip0.t-ipconnect.de)
  330. # [08:32] <divya> jgraham: sweet i will put you in touch with someone who wanted to find out what you would be talking aobout. hurray.
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  332. # [08:35] <jgraham> divya: Cool
  333. # [08:35] * Ms2ger approves
  334. # [08:35] <divya> :)) Ms2ger do you ever make an IRL appearance?
  335. # [08:36] <divya> MikeSmith: would you also be at TPAC?
  336. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> hey divya
  337. # [08:36] <MikeSmith> yeah, will be there
  338. # [08:36] <divya> so also for Test the Web Forward then MikeSmith ?
  339. # [08:36] <divya> :PPP
  340. # [08:36] <divya> you should ideall
  341. # [08:36] <divya> y
  342. # [08:36] <Ms2ger> Ever? Maybe
  343. # [08:37] <divya> ahaha :)
  344. # [08:38] <MikeSmith> divya: what's the dates?
  345. # [08:38] <divya> MikeSmith: 26-27 oct
  346. # [08:38] <divya> just before TPAC
  347. # [08:38] <divya> hold on it should be on csswg wiki
  348. # [08:39] * Joins: sedovsek (~robert@93-103-104-107.dynamic.t-2.net)
  349. # [08:39] <divya> MikeSmith: http://wiki.csswg.org/test/events/paris-2012
  350. # [08:39] <divya> MikeSmith: this is the internal organizational thing we will have the website ready by end of the week
  351. # [08:40] <MikeSmith> I see
  352. # [08:41] <jamesr_> othermaciej: i believe the wiki proposal for unrelated context does address your question about noreferrer
  353. # [08:41] <jamesr_> othermaciej: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Links_to_Unrelated_Browsing_Contexts#Current_Usage_and_Workarounds
  354. # [08:41] <Ms2ger> divya, s/Glassman/Glazman/?
  355. # [08:41] <divya> ahaha Ms2ger yes >_>
  356. # [08:42] <othermaciej> I see
  357. # [08:42] <othermaciej> jamesr_: is there a difference other than whether the Referer header is sent?
  358. # [08:42] <divya> Ms2ger: the person who has been updating the wiki doesnt know the members >_> i will have to dig out my credentials from the dark corners of my email archive
  359. # [08:42] <Ms2ger> Oh dear :)
  360. # [08:43] <jamesr_> assuming noreferrer nulls out the window.opener, etc, i don't think so
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  362. # [08:43] <othermaciej> jamesr_: also is it really ok to drop support for the window.opener behavior of noreferrer? that seems bold
  363. # [08:44] <jamesr_> you mean with rel=noreferrer and target=_blank ?
  364. # [08:44] <divya> Ms2ger: or glazou can edit it himself :PP
  365. # [08:44] <divya> Ms2ger: i can assure you though he is pretty sharp and planned the first one.
  366. # [08:44] <jamesr_> we've been doing it in chromium for several years, i don't know if i was around to know if we got compat issues when we started doing that
  367. # [08:45] <othermaciej> jamesr_: yes, the requirement to null out window.opener as per http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/links.html#link-type-noreferrer
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  369. # [08:45] <othermaciej> jamesr_: the wiki section you cited seems to suggest that this behavior of rel=noreferrer could be removed
  370. # [08:46] <jamesr_> oh i see. i don't know about that
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  372. # [08:46] <othermaciej> which seems all kinds of wrong to me
  373. # [08:46] <jamesr_> i thought you were referring to the nulling out behavior, which i think is fine
  374. # [08:46] <othermaciej> yes, the nulling behavior is good and I think a logical corollary of not sending referrer
  375. # [08:46] <othermaciej> and also it's probably relied on by more than just gmail
  376. # [08:46] <jamesr_> oh i'm sure
  377. # [08:47] <jamesr_> i can't find anything in the proposal suggesting that noreferrer would stop doing this
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  379. # [08:48] <othermaciej> oh, I misread
  380. # [08:48] <annevk> zcorpan: so yeah it was the caching :/
  381. # [08:49] <annevk> guess I'll just empty the cache again
  382. # [08:49] <othermaciej> I was looking at "Google Chrome also has a non-standard trick for opening links in a new process by using window.open(), setting the resulting window's opener to null, and then navigating the new window to a different site"
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  384. # [08:49] <jamesr_> ah gotcha
  385. # [08:49] <jamesr_> yeah that's a way to get the unrelated behavior with window.open()
  386. # [08:49] <jamesr_> as opposed to a link
  387. # [08:50] <zcorpan> annevk: is it possible to prune the cache automatically (or empty it once a every few months automatically)?
  388. # [08:50] <jamesr_> that's also a behavior other pages probably use now
  389. # [08:50] <jamesr_> (and one that not-so-infrequently breaks with gmail, heh)
  390. # [08:50] <othermaciej> does that method result in sending Referer or no?
  391. # [08:50] <othermaciej> I can't tell
  392. # [08:50] <annevk> zcorpan: I guess, but I'm fine with this
  393. # [08:50] <othermaciej> the page says gmail uses that technique, but I would be surprised if a mail client wanted to send referer
  394. # [08:50] <othermaciej> as that seems like a privacy issue
  395. # [08:50] <annevk> zcorpan: I'd rather we remove the cache, but maybe that would be too much of a hit on the SVN server
  396. # [08:50] <jamesr_> depends on what it is, you can sanitize the URL with a redirect
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  398. # [08:51] <jamesr_> i'll bet if you asked charlie reis he'd know the answer to all of these sorts of questions. this particular behavior is tricky to implement and i'm not super familiar
  399. # [08:52] <othermaciej> I'm in fact trying to ask him questions via email on the whatwg list
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  401. # [08:52] <annevk> zcorpan: might actually have been a hiccup from the SVN server too
  402. # [08:53] <jamesr_> the proposal does mention supporting rel="…" in general for window.open() would be useful. then you could just set noreferrer and there'd be no question about what happens
  403. # [08:55] <othermaciej> that part of the proposal seems ok to me (though only a small subset of link relations seem like they would be relevant in that usage)
  404. # [08:56] <othermaciej> I'm just not really clear on when you would want the "unrelated" behavior instead of "noreferrer"
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  406. # [08:57] <othermaciej> I am puzzled that he implies mail clients would want it, as sending referer with the url of the mail client seems clearly bad
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  410. # [09:03] <jamesr_> othermaciej: the use case was google reader
  411. # [09:03] <jamesr_> or imagine some sort of content aggregator app
  412. # [09:03] <jamesr_> seems pretty reasonable to send a referer from my rss reader to the page
  413. # [09:04] <othermaciej> most content aggregators I use don't presume to open windows for me, but if they did, I guess I could see how they'd want to null opener but still send referer
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  448. # [09:56] <Ms2ger> annevk, <annevk> please someone remind me tomorrow
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  450. # [09:58] <jgraham> We are reminding annevk that it is tomorrow?
  451. # [09:59] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: it's already fixed
  452. # [09:59] * Quits: hasather (~davidh@office.oslo.opera.com) (Quit: Ex-Chat)
  453. # [09:59] <Ms2ger> Ah, good
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  455. # [10:00] <Ms2ger> Also, nobody ever uses function.length
  456. # [10:03] <jgraham> Hixie: http://damowmow.com/playground/demos/document-write-and-scripts/002.html in Opera gives me 0 2 2
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  482. # [10:51] <jgraham> So, if you document.write in the load event, how many history entries should you end up with? Spec/firefox/IE say 2 (one before the write, one after), Opera/WebKit say 1 (after the write)
  483. # [10:51] <jgraham> Is there any reason the spec behaviour is more useful? AFAICT it usually breaks the back button
  484. # [10:52] <jgraham> <script>onload = function() {document.write("Go back and this will be rerun, so you will end up in the same place")}</script>
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  486. # [10:58] <zcorpan> Ms2ger: that's why it's low prio :-)
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  496. # [11:15] <gsnedders> Ms2ger: Test suites use Function.length!
  497. # [11:17] <zcorpan> gsnedders: that's why it's a known bug :-P
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  536. # [13:09] <zcorpan> so, w3c -= annevk
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  539. # [13:14] <beverloo> his new company just needs to join as a member :p
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  541. # [13:14] <beverloo> it's disturbing nonetheless
  542. # [13:15] <jgraham> It's not surprising
  543. # [13:17] <jgraham> Perhaps W3C will eventually learn that their craziness is bad if it has consequences
  544. # [13:18] <jgraham> Although it didn't work so well with HTML
  545. # [13:18] <jgraham> With the whole fork -> unfork -> fork thing
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  563. # [14:03] <withub> Is there any way to get the noreferrer relation to work on a script tag?
  564. # [14:04] <withub> so that when the src of the script tag is fetched from the remote server, a referer won't be set?
  565. # [14:04] <withub> s/set/sent
  566. # [14:06] <annevk> beverloo: the Member Agreement is not much better
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  639. # [16:24] <jgraham> Hixie: Is there a difference between the behaviour in bug 18459 and just updating the document base to be the new document base on pushState unless there is a base element in which case not updating it?
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  641. # [16:24] <jgraham> s/to be the new document base/to be the new document address/
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  726. # [19:31] <Hixie> jgraham: changing the <base> element dynamically presumably also affects things
  727. # [19:32] <Hixie> jgraham: (re document.write, weird, i guess that changed at some point? i must have an older opera at home)
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  730. # [19:44] <annevk> Hixie: just to be clear, you prefer html.spec.whatwg.org over what we have today?
  731. # [19:45] <annevk> Hixie: I guess that works too
  732. # [19:45] <annevk> Hixie: it's a little bit more hassle with the DreamHost people and becomes semi-problematic if editors change
  733. # [19:45] <Hixie> it's mostly because that gives the editors complete control over the subdomain, and i don't have to worry about managing anything or worrying about security
  734. # [19:46] <Hixie> why is there any hassle with dreamhost?
  735. # [19:46] * Hixie has 60+ subdomains, and is pretty used to it :-P
  736. # [19:46] <annevk> there was last time I think, because you assigned the subdomain directly to me
  737. # [19:46] <Hixie> changing editors is a concern, true, but the solution then is _don't change editors_ :-P pick up a responsibility and keep it for life :-P
  738. # [19:46] <Hixie> oh right, yeah, if we do that it's a bit more complex
  739. # [19:47] <Hixie> i figured we'd just have users under my account
  740. # [19:47] <TabAtkins> "The spec editor mates for life with their chosen spec."
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  743. # [19:48] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, fortunately we don't require picking a single spec...
  744. # [19:48] <Hixie> annevk: anyway, if it's all in a github repo it's not a huge deal if the editors change, you just wipe the directory and have hte new one do their stuff afresh :-)
  745. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> Nor do we require a single editor per spec. It's a happy polyamarous family.
  746. # [19:49] <annevk> Hixie: fair enough
  747. # [19:49] * Hixie is of the opinion that if you can be editing multiple specs, your spec isn't big enough, and multiple editors means diluted blame, which is even worse :-P
  748. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> The relationship graph of editors and specs is K2, luckily.
  749. # [19:49] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  750. # [19:49] <TabAtkins> Hixie: I edit one spec, it's just split up into multiple documetns.
  751. # [19:49] <Hixie> hah
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  757. # [19:59] <jgraham> Hixie: Yeah, changing the base is an interesting case I guess
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  761. # [20:03] <Hixie> any opera people around with opinions on <template>?
  762. # [20:03] <Hixie> as in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/spec/templates/index.html#introduction
  763. # [20:03] <Hixie> trying to work out whether to put it in the html spec or not
  764. # [20:03] <TabAtkins> Hixie: The only person we know of who's cared about it from Opera is jgraham.
  765. # [20:04] <jgraham> Hixie: Something like http://hoppipolla.co.uk/tests/pushState/003.html ?
  766. # [20:04] <annevk> well "cared" would also include me :p
  767. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> At least, in mailing lists so far.
  768. # [20:04] <TabAtkins> But you're not Opera, so there.
  769. # [20:04] <jgraham> Hixie: What sort of opinion are you looking for here?
  770. # [20:04] <Hixie> (i hate the way pushState() tests make it hard to view source in some browsers :-P)
  771. # [20:04] <annevk> TabAtkins: :)
  772. # [20:04] <zewt> i'm doing templating-in-markup already; i just stick my templates in a @hidden block, then clone its contents into a DocumentFragment
  773. # [20:05] <Hixie> jgraham: go/no-go, or anything more detailed
  774. # [20:05] <TabAtkins> zewt: That's problematic if you want to avoid loading resources. :/
  775. # [20:05] <zewt> doesn't have nice magical syntax for filling in contents, but that's easy enough with querySelector
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  777. # [20:05] <jgraham> I don't think that we object to the idea of web components or templates, but we might of course want to argue about the details
  778. # [20:05] <zewt> TabAtkins: i guess; in my case I do want everything preloaded
  779. # [20:06] <jgraham> So no objection to adding it to the HTML spec if that is generally considered to be the best home for it
  780. # [20:06] <TabAtkins> zewt: Okay. More generally, if you're stamping out templated html multiple times, you may want to vary a resource location in each stamp, like <img src='image{i}'> or whatever.
  781. # [20:06] <zewt> TabAtkins: my first instinct is that you should be able to (somehow) say something like "@hidden and also don't load resources for this hidden element", though of course that's far more complicated than @hidden today
  782. # [20:06] <jgraham> (if that was a vauge answer, it was a vauge question :p)
  783. # [20:07] <Hixie> jgraham: ok
  784. # [20:07] <zewt> i do that, eg. var newInstance = copyTemplate(template); newInstance.querySelector("img.some-image").src = image[i]
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  786. # [20:07] <Hixie> jgraham: any objection in particular to the proposed parsing mechanism (parsing "children" of <template> into an anonymous separate document)?
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  788. # [20:07] <zewt> like I said it's not as pretty as a more thorough templating system might be able to make it, but it's been working pretty well
  789. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> zewt: That's basically what <template> does. ^_^
  790. # [20:09] <Hixie> jgraham: yeah, that test is exactly what i meant
  791. # [20:09] <Hixie> jgraham: very interesting
  792. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> (re: hidden and don't load resources)
  793. # [20:09] <TabAtkins> (also, don't allow querySelector and friends to match into it)
  794. # [20:09] <zewt> TabAtkins: seems like it might be a useful thing in general, even without templates
  795. # [20:10] <jgraham> Hixie: I don't have a strong objection to the magical parsing. I am aware that hsivonen does and I think his argument has merit, but I don't have an alternative design for the feature that is better
  796. # [20:11] <Hixie> jgraham: chrome and firefox are freakishly interoperable on that test given the lack of basis for their behaviour in any spec
  797. # [20:11] <Hixie> jgraham: k
  798. # [20:11] <dglazkov> Hixie: you may want to check with Tony Russ and Rafael Weinstein who have been actively working on this spec first.
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  800. # [20:12] <jgraham> Hixie: I hate things that are freakishly interopable but contradict all known specs :)
  801. # [20:12] <Hixie> dglazkov: i am in close contact with rafael
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  803. # [20:12] <dglazkov> Hixie: great!
  804. # [20:12] <dglazkov> how close? :P
  805. # [20:12] <Hixie> he's one of the only people i've had a video conf call with this year :-P
  806. # [20:13] <dglazkov> whoa
  807. # [20:13] <Hixie> possibly in fact the only person :-P
  808. # [20:13] <Hixie> more than once!
  809. # [20:13] <dglazkov> btw, we spoke with other Mozillians (bz, sicking), and they don't think the magic parsing design is bad.
  810. # [20:14] <dglazkov> but raf would have a much more detailed information on that meeting
  811. # [20:14] <Hixie> k
  812. # [20:14] <Hixie> (hopefully they can let me know that directly, too)
  813. # [20:14] <dglazkov> I think raf is planning to send another mail to the list about that
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  815. # [20:15] <Hixie> k
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  880. # [21:49] <annevk> since I put my email at the top of the MetaExtensions page instead of getting emails about registering new users people complain about validation errors and wonder how to fix those
  881. # [21:49] <annevk> I might leave remove my email address again Hixie and only deal with those people that ask for an account on IRC
  882. # [21:50] <annevk> heh, scumbag steve
  883. # [21:52] <TabAtkins> annevk: Yeah, change the message to be "come to IRC and ask"
  884. # [21:52] <zewt> put a 4-page algorithm for deriving your email address
  885. # [21:54] * Quits: hasather_ (~hasather_@cm-84.208.71.130.getinternet.no) (Remote host closed the connection)
  886. # [21:56] <annevk> TabAtkins: done
  887. # [21:56] * Quits: LBP (~Mirc@pD9EB1647.dip0.t-ipconnect.de) (Quit: Bye, bye! See you on http://leanbackplayer.com)
  888. # [21:57] * ojan is now known as ojan_lunch
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  893. # [22:01] <charlvn> annevk: so you still unemployed?
  894. # [22:01] * Quits: tantek (~tantek@66-87-0-41.pools.spcsdns.net) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
  895. # [22:02] <annevk> charlvn: gonna start doing some work next week, but no pay for now
  896. # [22:02] <annevk> no need for money at the moment
  897. # [22:02] <charlvn> taking a break every now and then is a good thing
  898. # [22:02] <charlvn> enjoy it while it lasts :)
  899. # [22:03] <annevk> it's been a good two months so far :)
  900. # [22:03] * Joins: Kolombiken (~Adium@217.13.228.226)
  901. # [22:03] <charlvn> nice
  902. # [22:04] <annevk> charlvn: are you actually in the Netherlands these days?
  903. # [22:04] * Quits: Kolombiken (~Adium@217.13.228.226) (Client Quit)
  904. # [22:04] <charlvn> annevk: haven't been outside of the EU in almost a year
  905. # [22:05] <annevk> should visit one of those Fronteers meetups one day
  906. # [22:05] <charlvn> i have been putting it off but it's a good idea
  907. # [22:05] <charlvn> thanks for reminding me
  908. # [22:05] <annevk> and time it appropriately so we can meet, would love to learn some more Afrikaans :)
  909. # [22:05] <charlvn> lol my afrikaans has gone down the drain :S
  910. # [22:06] <annevk> too bad, together with Belgian I think it's more Dutch than Dutch
  911. # [22:06] * Quits: zcorpan_ (~zcorpan@94.234.170.59) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
  912. # [22:07] <charlvn> well they like to translate things "properly", not just take english words over
  913. # [22:07] <charlvn> actually i find it rather painful
  914. # [22:07] <annevk> right, Dutch is borrowed all over
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  916. # [22:07] <charlvn> when i try to use software in afrikaans the number of wtfs per minute is pretty high
  917. # [22:07] <charlvn> i don't understand half of the application anymore
  918. # [22:07] <annevk> and even made less Dutch (kado -> cadeau)
  919. # [22:07] <annevk> haha
  920. # [22:08] <annevk> admittedly I only use English software
  921. # [22:08] <charlvn> at work we have this application, the dutch translation pack has been bought from belgium
  922. # [22:09] <charlvn> none of us use it, we immediately switch to english
  923. # [22:09] <charlvn> we just talk of a "policy", not a "beleid" so it confuses us :)
  924. # [22:14] <divya> hey whatwg what is jgraham 's email id
  925. # [22:14] * divya is lazy to check mailing list.
  926. # [22:14] <gsnedders> divya: For Opera? jgraham .
  927. # [22:14] <divya> gsnedders: yes. o thnx.
  928. # [22:14] <divya> jgraham@o i suppose
  929. # [22:14] <gsnedders> Yeah.
  930. # [22:16] <divya> thnx gsnedders
  931. # [22:16] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  932. # [22:17] <gsnedders> divya: PS: I am now your LDAP directory.
  933. # [22:17] * Quits: ShaneHudson (~sh548@raptor.ukc.ac.uk) (Quit: leaving)
  934. # [22:17] <gsnedders> *not
  935. # [22:17] <annevk> not hers, but for #whatwg you are :p
  936. # [22:18] * jonlee|afk is now known as jonlee
  937. # [22:19] <gsnedders> :(
  938. # [22:20] <jgraham> gsnedders: You have many things in common with LDAP
  939. # [22:20] <jgraham> Like no one actually understands how you work
  940. # [22:21] * Quits: snowfox_ben (~benschaaf@50-77-199-197-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net) (Quit: snowfox_ben)
  941. # [22:23] <jgraham> divya: I got your email, thanks
  942. # [22:24] <divya> gsnedders: :)))))
  943. # [22:24] <divya> jgraham: AHAHAHA poor gsnedders
  944. # [22:24] <jgraham> I guess you are expecting me to reply
  945. # [22:24] * Quits: krawchyk (~krawchyk@65.220.49.251) (Remote host closed the connection)
  946. # [22:24] <divya> but it is true you are mysteriously magical gsnedders MUCH LIKE LDAP
  947. # [22:24] <divya> jgraham: not immediately no. email is not Instant Messaging :P
  948. # [22:24] <divya> or Text or call.
  949. # [22:24] * divya wonders how many media of communication exist
  950. # [22:25] <jgraham> divya: You are not expecting me to reply at all, or I should wait some unspecified time to make it sufficiently async to fit your notion of what is appropriate for email? :)
  951. # [22:25] * Joins: pablof (~pablof@144.189.101.1)
  952. # [22:25] <divya> jgraham: REPLY WHEN YOU PLEASE
  953. # [22:26] <divya> jgraham: or whenever is convenient!!!
  954. # [22:26] * divya takes note of jgraham's penchant for nitpicking
  955. # [22:26] <annevk> not a fan of dubstep, but http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgII2gDY-Rw is hilarious
  956. # [22:27] <jgraham> dglazkov: Is this your "implement Web Components or die" expression? https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-utqdXXy_BGU/UDuu7l702AI/AAAAAAAAKKM/-ptCs0_sffU/s657/IMG_20120827_101442.jpg
  957. # [22:27] <annevk> especially the woman in pink is great
  958. # [22:28] <dglazkov> jgraham: the only response to this that I can have is: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-utqdXXy_BGU/UDuu7l702AI/AAAAAAAAKKM/-ptCs0_sffU/s657/IMG_20120827_101442.jpg
  959. # [22:28] <dglazkov> or it's emoticon equivalent, <_<
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  961. # [22:29] <divya> ahahahaha dglazkov
  962. # [22:29] <divya> annevk: is this the video you have been recommending since morning
  963. # [22:29] <annevk> your morning, my early evening :)
  964. # [22:29] <annevk> just passing on the greatness showed to me by robbert
  965. # [22:31] <divya> that lady in pink is bestest
  966. # [22:35] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  967. # [22:35] <gsnedders> jgraham: I work in the same manner as most people in this industry: by hitting keys on a keyboard.
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  986. # [23:11] <Hixie> annevk: weird, i've only ever had people asking for accounts
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  1011. # Session Close: Wed Aug 29 00:00:00 2012

The end :)