/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2013-02-07 / end

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  143. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> Hixie: here now
  144. # [08:32] <MikeSmith> oh I guess you got your answer
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  187. # [10:02] <MikeSmith> Hixie: responded on that outline bug https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=20068#c3
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  190. # [10:07] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I agree that Hixie's expectation in the first case is bizarre
  191. # [10:08] <jgraham> I would at least expect C to be section 1.2
  192. # [10:08] <MikeSmith> yeah I think he may have just mistyped that
  193. # [10:08] <jgraham> I hope so :)
  194. # [10:10] <MikeSmith> but still the fact that the first markup case he gives should have an implied heading at the top level and the second should not, I don't understand why there should be difference
  195. # [10:11] <Ms2ger> jgraham, you should assume he isn't an idiot and reinterpret what he says in that light ;à
  196. # [10:12] <Ms2ger> ;)*
  197. # [10:12] <jgraham> Ms2ger: I preferred your first smilie. Although I don't know what it represents.
  198. # [10:13] <Philip`> I think it's someone being punched in the mouth
  199. # [10:13] <Ms2ger> Do you know Edvard Munch?
  200. # [10:13] <jgraham> MikeSmith: I assuming he is thinking that <section>a<section>b</section><h2>C</h2>c</section> is equivalent to <section>a<section>b</section><section><h2>C</h2>c</section></section>
  201. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> I think that smiley is he's giving you the finger
  202. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> jgraham: hmm, OK
  203. # [10:14] <jgraham> Which makes some sense
  204. # [10:14] <MikeSmith> yeah
  205. # [10:15] <darobin_> Ms2ger++ # "Do you know Edvard Munch?"
  206. # [10:15] * darobin_ is now known as darobin
  207. # [10:16] <jgraham> Pretty sure you need a seance to know Munch these days
  208. # [10:16] <jgraham> Unless you mean in the Biblical sense
  209. # [10:16] <darobin> errrr
  210. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> maybe ;à means he is simultaneously winking and grave. A grave wink.
  211. # [10:17] <darobin> you'd need one hell of a seance to know him in the Biblical sense I'd reckon
  212. # [10:17] <darobin> I interpreted it as a winking goatee
  213. # [10:17] <darobin> somehow I think that a goatee would really become Ms2ger
  214. # [10:18] <Ms2ger> I beg to differ
  215. # [10:18] <jgraham> Oh, goat*ee*
  216. # [10:19] <Ms2ger> Why thank you, jgraham
  217. # [10:19] <darobin> heh
  218. # [10:22] * Quits: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65) (Remote host closed the connection)
  219. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> I wonder what does Hixie use <!--CLEANUP--> for in the spec source
  220. # [10:22] <MikeSmith> something he's planning to come back and clean up later?
  221. # [10:22] * Joins: tomasf (~tomasf@77.72.97.4.c.fiberdirekt.net)
  222. # [10:24] <Ms2ger> I was wondering the same
  223. # [10:24] * Ms2ger summons Hixie
  224. # [10:24] * jgraham looks at the time in SF.
  225. # [10:24] * jgraham thinks "good luck with that".
  226. # [10:25] * jonlee is now known as jonlee|afk
  227. # [10:26] <jgraham> darobin: You could argue that we have had external contributers. For example Philip` is external for some definition of external.
  228. # [10:26] <jgraham> Roughly the definition that means "doesn't get paid to do this"
  229. # [10:27] <darobin> jgraham: I know, but I was thinking of people completely outside of the fold
  230. # [10:27] <darobin> I mean people know Philip`, it's not like he appeared out of the blue from nowhere like our new contributors
  231. # [10:27] <jgraham> Sure, for that definition of "external" I agree
  232. # [10:27] * Ms2ger had this manual stuff figured out long ago
  233. # [10:27] <darobin> also, I'm annoyed that Kris seems to have nothing better to do than undermine the work done in a group he's supposed to be running
  234. # [10:28] * Joins: annevk (~annevk@207.218.72.65)
  235. # [10:29] <jgraham> Well he was always (one of the) strongest opponents of the github thing
  236. # [10:29] * Quits: nvartolomei (~nvartolom@178.168.103.7) (Remote host closed the connection)
  237. # [10:30] <darobin> yeah, but at some point when the decision is made you don't keep shooting at it
  238. # [10:30] <darobin> what's more with arguments that are factually wrong
  239. # [10:31] <jgraham> For WebApps the decision Hasn't been made (in theory)
  240. # [10:31] <jgraham> s/H/h/
  241. # [10:31] <darobin> yeah but he was making comments about the HTML work
  242. # [10:31] <jgraham> Sure, I agree he was wrong about almost everything he said
  243. # [10:32] <darobin> almost? :)
  244. # [10:32] <jgraham> Well I guess he got his name right? ;)
  245. # [10:32] <darobin> hahaha
  246. # [10:33] * Joins: nvartolomei (~nvartolom@178.168.103.7)
  247. # [10:33] <jgraham> Anyway, I don't know if he is was just ignorant of the state of the move, or intentionally understating its success to try to put WebApps off
  248. # [10:33] <jgraham> I guess the former
  249. # [10:34] <darobin> yeah I'm guessing the former
  250. # [10:34] <Ms2ger> Clearly you guys haven't been explaining well enough in our meetings
  251. # [10:35] <jgraham> I was going to say, maybe an email to public-html[-something] giving the current state of the move would be helpful
  252. # [10:35] <jgraham> I have no idea if -something should be -testsuite -admin or nothing at all.
  253. # [10:36] <Ms2ger> I thought -admin was just for trolling?
  254. # [10:36] * Quits: Zauberfisch (~Zauberfis@2a01:4f8:100:73c3::3) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
  255. # [10:36] <darobin> I reckon to just public-html
  256. # [10:37] <jgraham> I suppose you are right, -admin is for DRM
  257. # [10:38] * Joins: bholley (~bholley@207.218.72.65)
  258. # [10:39] <Philip`> darobin: I did appear out of the blue once, but that was many years ago :-(
  259. # [10:39] <darobin> Philip`: well we all did, didn't we? :)
  260. # [10:40] <Ms2ger> darobin, well, you appeared in a whiff of smoke
  261. # [10:40] <darobin> out of the dark
  262. # [10:40] <darobin> smelling of brimstone
  263. # [10:40] <jgraham> I think you guys need to have a chat with your parents
  264. # [10:40] * Quits: nvartolomei (~nvartolom@178.168.103.7) (Remote host closed the connection)
  265. # [10:40] <jgraham> In unrelated news
  266. # [10:40] <jgraham> https://github.com/w3c/event-source/pull/7#issuecomment-13218167
  267. # [10:41] <jgraham> Does someone want to answer that
  268. # [10:41] * Joins: ^esc (~esc_ape@178.115.250.157.wireless.dyn.drei.com)
  269. # [10:41] <jgraham> MikeSmith, darobin: I'm looking at you :)
  270. # [10:41] * Philip` is currently "external" mostly in the sense of "not involved at all"
  271. # [10:45] <darobin> jgraham: done
  272. # [10:46] <jgraham> darobin: Thanks
  273. # [10:47] <jgraham> (that does sort of suggest we need a LICENSE file in the repo, or something, no?)
  274. # [10:47] <darobin> yeah, we should do that
  275. # [10:47] <darobin> actually, I should do that for all my GH repos... (sigh)
  276. # [10:47] <Ms2ger> Damn copyright
  277. # [10:49] <annevk> slightlyoff: btw, how about instead of inheriting from EventTarget we only give it on() and fire()?
  278. # [10:50] * Quits: jwalden (~waldo@c-71-202-165-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net) (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87-5.1450hg.fc17 [XULRunner 18.0/20130109143146])
  279. # [10:52] <darobin> annevk: are you going to the appcache thing tomorrow?
  280. # [10:53] <annevk> darobin: yes
  281. # [10:53] <darobin> cool, see you there then
  282. # [10:54] <annevk> ah fun
  283. # [10:54] <hsivonen> Hixie: I'm not assuming your are an idiot. Sorry if it looked that way. It would help not to treat the people who ask for app cache changes because they want to accelerate non-appy sites as non-idiots, too
  284. # [10:55] <hsivonen> Hixie: maybe "just use HTTP cache" isn't the answer when all those people want to push the boundaries of app cache instead of using the HTTP cache
  285. # [10:58] * Quits: JonathanNeal (~JonathanN@cpe-142-11-82-156.socal.rr.com) (Quit: JonathanNeal)
  286. # [10:58] <hsivonen> Hixie: yeah, we probably want a worker--based solution for the really hard cases
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  289. # [11:00] <hsivonen> doh. remove either "not" or "non-" in the last "idiot" sentence above
  290. # [11:02] <hsivonen> Hixie: part of the reason why solutions are sought in f2f meetings instead of seeking them at the WHATWG might be that you WONTFIXed the bugs when people tried non-f2f way of working
  291. # [11:03] * Joins: smaug____ (~chatzilla@nat/mozilla/x-heeeqpycbeysdciu)
  292. # [11:04] <hsivonen> Hixie: FWIW, I've been saying we might need a way for "important" sites to be able to ensure their HTTP cache entries don't get evicted on an LRU basis among all cache entries
  293. # [11:04] <hsivonen> i.e. having separpate cache quota and eviction policy for Facebook vs. random sites
  294. # [11:04] <hsivonen> *separate
  295. # [11:05] * Quits: danielfilho (~danielfil@201.87.94.89) (Remote host closed the connection)
  296. # [11:05] <jgraham> Why wouldn't every site want to opt in to the "I'm important" area?
  297. # [11:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: yes. We need to solve that
  298. # [11:05] <hsivonen> jgraham: app cache has that problem, too
  299. # [11:05] <hsivonen> Chrome just lets them store stuff
  300. # [11:06] <jgraham> hsivonen: It's not clear to me as a user that facebook *is* more important than any other site
  301. # [11:06] <hsivonen> Firefox prompts
  302. # [11:06] <hsivonen> the prompt is bad
  303. # [11:06] <jgraham> I mean sure, the fb engineers think so
  304. # [11:06] * Joins: richt (~richt@cpc15-gran4-2-0-cust9.12-1.cable.virginmedia.com)
  305. # [11:06] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, Facebook has the engineering resources to treat themselves as more important
  306. # [11:06] <hsivonen> i.e. work around the HTTP cache if we don't allow them to make themselves special there
  307. # [11:08] <jgraham> This is a bit distressing. The idea that we have to kowtow to big enough sites, even if it doesn't actually provide a net win for users
  308. # [11:09] <jgraham> (i.e. if we end up in a situation where fb + gmail always hit the cache, but other sites never hit the cache)
  309. # [11:09] <hsivonen> jgraham: other sites can hit the cache, if fb and gmail cache their stuff outside the normal cachequota
  310. # [11:10] <jgraham> hsivonen: Right, but at some level we only have a fixed amount of space to play with
  311. # [11:10] <jgraham> There is an element of zero-sum about this game
  312. # [11:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: well, on desktop the space is most of the time large enough not to matter
  313. # [11:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: on mobile, if we don't give them cache space, native app installation will
  314. # [11:11] <jgraham> If that was really true it isn't clear why LRU wouldn't be good enough
  315. # [11:11] <hsivonen> jgraham: so we should consider ourselves to be in competition with whatever space a native Facebook app gets to consume on the device
  316. # [11:12] <darobin> we are
  317. # [11:13] <darobin> do browser just use basic LRU? I would think that adding a notion of frequency might be helpful too
  318. # [11:14] <jgraham> Well, to the extent this is tied to webapps-as-installable-sites (e.g. a facebook button on your home screen that actually just launches the site), it makes sense to have seperate quotas (and permissions) for that "app"
  319. # [11:14] * Joins: marcosc (~marcosc@bl10-105-194.dsl.telepac.pt)
  320. # [11:14] <darobin> I reckon people are doing some f2f for appcache also because some parts get complicated enough that waving hands and doodling on a whiteboard become useful
  321. # [11:15] <jgraham> Maybe you could also tie it to pinned tabs in browsers
  322. # [11:16] <jgraham> So the point is that big sites aren't special
  323. # [11:16] * Joins: sicking (~sicking@207.218.72.65)
  324. # [11:17] <jgraham> But any site where the user has taken some positive step to indicate that they regard that site as special, is special
  325. # [11:18] * Joins: cheron (~cheron@unaffiliated/cheron)
  326. # [11:18] <Ms2ger> Philip`, while you're here...
  327. # [11:18] * Joins: baku (~baku@207.218.72.65)
  328. # [11:26] <annevk> jgraham: you'd implement some kind of popularity-based caching policy
  329. # [11:26] <annevk> jgraham: if you visit site A often, it would become more pinned than others
  330. # [11:27] * Ms2ger waves at baku
  331. # [11:27] <annevk> On another note, Ms2ger, how about "host-inclusive ancestor" for "inclusive ancestor" that also considers DocumentFragment's host concept
  332. # [11:27] <baku> good morning Ms2ger
  333. # [11:28] <annevk> Ms2ger: my checkin yesterday didn't consider nesting, so I think introducing a term might be better
  334. # [11:28] <jgraham> annevk: That sounds like it can work without anything other than "normal http caching"
  335. # [11:28] <jgraham> It just means doign what darobin said and changing LRU to some other heuristic
  336. # [11:28] <annevk> jgraham: except that appcache helps caching resources that might not initially be loaded
  337. # [11:28] <jgraham> So it doesn't seem like the same thing that hsivonen is talking about
  338. # [11:28] <annevk> jgraham: and groups them for a given origin
  339. # [11:29] <Ms2ger> I'm not sure if "host-inclusive ancestor" makes it clear that the node itself is included
  340. # [11:29] <annevk> What is LRU?
  341. # [11:29] <jgraham> Least Recently Used
  342. # [11:29] <annevk> Ms2ger: host-including-inclusive ancestor?
  343. # [11:29] <jgraham> So when you evict stuff you evict the stuff that was last loaded the longest ago
  344. # [11:29] <Ms2ger> I'd drop the second dash, I think
  345. # [11:31] <jgraham> Sure, I can see that using app-cache as a formal way of precaching resources can be good. But I don't quite see what you mean by "groups them for a specific origin"
  346. # [11:32] <annevk> jgraham: you cache a set rather than a bunch of individual resources
  347. # [11:34] <jgraham> But if there are items in that set that you just aren't using it doesn't make sense to keep them in the cache. And if you are using them they won't get evicted anyway
  348. # [11:34] <jgraham> So it isn't clear to me why coarser-grained caches are a win
  349. # [11:36] * Quits: cgcardona (~cgcardona@unaffiliated/cgcardona) (Quit: zzzzz)
  350. # [11:36] <annevk> You want to keep them in the cache because you might use them at some point while offline
  351. # [11:37] <darobin> there definitely is value in using appcache for non-appy stuff
  352. # [11:37] <darobin> independently of regular caching
  353. # [11:37] <jgraham> Yes, I agree that for offline you need a bundle of resources
  354. # [11:37] <darobin> for instance, I would like to have a cache of all wikipedia articles that I've ever read
  355. # [11:37] <darobin> ditto for specs
  356. # [11:38] <jgraham> darobin: You can't keep all specs you've ever read cached in your brain?
  357. # [11:39] <Ms2ger> Do you think he wants traces of DOM2 in his *brain*? :)
  358. # [11:39] <jgraham> But, yeah, offline wikipedia could be nice. But I would want that to be something that was explicitly turned on, or something
  359. # [11:40] <darobin> jgraham: I can't even seem to keep those I've written in my brain
  360. # [11:40] <darobin> Ms2ger: that's not at all the worst spec I've read...
  361. # [11:40] <Ms2ger> darobin, oh, I guess you get to read sysapps too :)
  362. # [11:40] <darobin> jgraham: yeah, sure, and you'd want to be able to remove stuff too
  363. # [11:40] <jgraham> darobin: Fortunately I have zcorpan sitting nearby. He is an excellent L2 cache
  364. # [11:41] <darobin> Ms2ger: that's *still* not the worst stuff by any margin :) even taking enums of very long strings into account
  365. # [11:41] <darobin> hahaha
  366. # [11:41] <Ms2ger> Do tell, what is the worst?
  367. # [11:41] * Ms2ger awaits "DOM"
  368. # [11:41] <darobin> mmmmmm
  369. # [11:41] <darobin> I reckon WSDL's got to be up there
  370. # [11:41] <jgraham> DOM3 events?
  371. # [11:41] <darobin> pah
  372. # [11:41] <darobin> XML Schema part 1 scores well on that count
  373. # [11:42] <jgraham> Oh well yeah I guess all the non-Web stuff could be even worse ;)
  374. # [11:42] <darobin> oh, and don't get me started on MPEG or 3GPP stuff
  375. # [11:42] <Ms2ger> These have specs?
  376. # [11:42] <darobin> the email and MIME specs are pretty sordid too
  377. # [11:42] <darobin> Ms2ger: not if by spec you intend to mean something that fosters interop
  378. # [11:43] <jgraham> Ms2ger: That depends how much you're willing to pay
  379. # [11:43] <darobin> but they do have documents pretending to define technology
  380. # [11:43] <Ms2ger> Sounds like DOM2
  381. # [11:43] <darobin> so yeah, from where I stand most of the DOM feels like a breeze of fresh air
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  394. # [12:30] <darobin> I want whoever designed the DOM 3 XPath API shot, and I want it now
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  396. # [12:32] <Ms2ger> You'll be meeting jst?
  397. # [12:32] <Ms2ger> Oh, Ray Whitmer
  398. # [12:32] <Ms2ger> Never heard of
  399. # [12:34] <darobin> I have dim memories of him on www-dom from a very long time ago
  400. # [12:35] <Ms2ger> Old man
  401. # [12:36] <darobin> he probably is :p
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  411. # [13:01] <hsivonen> Hixie: what was the rationale for not using JSON for app cache manifests? non-Draconian error handling? just the requirements not looking JSON-y enough?
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  436. # [14:02] <annevk> So should we add new DOMError()?
  437. # [14:02] <annevk> I guess it might be useful if you want your own API to reuse that object.
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  439. # [14:03] <annevk> FWIW, I talked to jst and he's not to blame. DOM was a heavily server-side dominated group at the time, designing the API for a client-side world.
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  449. # [14:37] <darobin> annevk: it doesn't suck any less as a server-side API :)
  450. # [14:38] <annevk> But but but Java!
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  453. # [14:38] <darobin> I reckon it sucks moderately even by Java standards
  454. # [14:38] <darobin> at least, the Java people seemed to think so
  455. # [14:39] <darobin> and it certainly sucked for all other server-side languages
  456. # [14:39] <annevk> hsivonen thinks so too I think and he's the only Java-"fanboy" I know
  457. # [14:39] <darobin> at some point "inventing your own tree API" was a sort of sport
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  459. # [14:40] <annevk> And these days it's graphs? (Microdata et al.)
  460. # [14:41] <darobin> I don't get the impression that people are building that many graphs APIs
  461. # [14:41] <darobin> everyone has made a templating language though
  462. # [14:43] <Stevef> darobin: ping for laters http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/html-wg/20130207#l-127 am sick so am going for a snooze
  463. # [14:44] <darobin> Stevef: ah yes saw that and have it tacked away for after I'm done with what I'm doing now
  464. # [14:44] <darobin> (get better man)
  465. # [14:45] <Stevef> cool thanks wasn't sure if you clocked it
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  467. # [14:50] <hsivonen> darobin: sad part is that the "better DOM" Java APIs are bad, too
  468. # [14:50] <hsivonen> darobin: for example, XOM made the mistake of using child lists instead of firstChild and nextSibling references
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  472. # [14:51] <hsivonen> annevk: and indeed, the DOM is bad from the Java point of view, too.
  473. # [14:51] <darobin> hsivonen: I actually like both depending on context
  474. # [14:51] <darobin> but yeah, XOM isn't great either
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  476. # [14:51] <hsivonen> dom4j is a kitchen sink that has the DOM interfaces in it, IIRC
  477. # [14:52] <hsivonen> jdom was bad, but I don't recall why
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  479. # [14:52] <hsivonen> I just recall that one of its original developers wrote a book about XML and got some basic XML spec lawyering wrong up front
  480. # [14:52] <hsivonen> which isn't a good sign
  481. # [14:53] <darobin> typical Java, though
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  483. # [14:53] <hsivonen> IIRC, I haven't gotten any requests for jdom support in the parser
  484. # [14:53] <hsivonen> but there are users of the XOM support
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  486. # [14:54] <darobin> by users, you mean some who aren't ERH?
  487. # [14:54] <hsivonen> yeah
  488. # [14:54] <darobin> fascinating
  489. # [14:54] <darobin> I thought that thing had died ages ago
  490. # [14:54] <hsivonen> adding jdom support would be trivial, FWIW
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  493. # [14:54] <hsivonen> basically just taking the time to type out some stuff
  494. # [14:55] <hsivonen> type as in push keys on keyboard
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  500. # [15:17] <boblet> Hey all. I’m wondering about the difference between del and s. Should del as “removed content” in theory not be displayed? Does anyone have another example for s that isn’t a price change? cc: hixie
  501. # [15:18] <Ms2ger> I would not suggest spending too much time on retrofitted semantics :)
  502. # [15:20] <boblet> Ms2ger: well, when duty calls… ;) I’m after a rule of thumb for a HTML5 Doctor article
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  504. # [15:20] <Ms2ger> When you'd strike something through rather than tipp-ex it
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  508. # [15:23] <boblet> that’s a nice real-world take of my obsolete vs edited (removed from doc) version
  509. # [15:27] <zewt> quotostrophes
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  515. # [15:56] <zewt> gah, bubbles and cancelable default to false when using the constructor/dictionary syntax? :(
  516. # [15:56] <zewt> true is almost always what you want, so that means having to say {bubbles: true, cancelable: true} on every single constructed event :|
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  519. # [15:59] <annevk> boblet: <del> is an edit, <s> is for fake edits
  520. # [16:00] <annevk> roughly
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  522. # [16:00] <jgraham> hsivonen: I believe Hixie objected to the lack of comments, and the need to define error handling because the format is much more flexible than the requirements suggetsed was needed
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  537. # [16:24] <hsivonen> jgraham: ok. (well, the requirements have grown since then…)
  538. # [16:24] <jgraham> Hopefully the desire for comments hasn't…
  539. # [16:24] <jgraham> (that's a huge misfeature of JSON)
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  541. # [16:27] <TabAtkins> boblet: <s> is the "sarcastic delete", basically.
  542. # [16:27] <TabAtkins> "That talk was <s>terrible</s> awesome."
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  544. # [16:33] <darobin> actually we should retrofit <s> for sarcasm in general
  545. # [16:33] <darobin> we all know it's needed
  546. # [16:33] <Ms2ger> </sarcasm>
  547. # [16:33] <TabAtkins> The default styling even works, crossing out the bullshit so no one else needs to see it!
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  549. # [16:34] <annevk> "I have been arguing for some time that we need a JS API to SQL -- the real SQL standard" apart from the question whether this is a good idea, that's not the way to get things done
  550. # [16:34] <darobin> exactly
  551. # [16:34] <darobin> well good, because it would be a terrible thing for that to happen in the first place :)
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  554. # [16:40] <MikeSmith> darobin: wow http://www.scientiamobile.com/blog/post/view/id/24/title/BDConf-and-Exposing-WURFL-Capabilities-to-JavaScript
  555. # [16:41] <MikeSmith> fun to know that Luca Passani is still around
  556. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> keeping WURFL alive I guess
  557. # [16:42] <MikeSmith> or trying to
  558. # [16:42] <TabAtkins> Oh for chrissakes, that's terrible.
  559. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> darobin: btw in my pyramid of tactful communicators, Luca is at the very top
  560. # [16:43] <MikeSmith> gold medalist
  561. # [16:43] <darobin> oooh, WURFL
  562. # [16:43] <darobin> yeah of course let's build that into browsers
  563. # [16:43] <TabAtkins> Honestly, 5 years ago it might have still been justifiable to make the distinction between "phone" and "tablet" meaningfully. That's long past.
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  565. # [16:44] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: that's not an uncommon reaction to an encounter with Luca
  566. # [16:44] <TabAtkins> haha
  567. # [16:44] <Ms2ger> TabAtkins, how about in UA strings?
  568. # [16:45] <TabAtkins> Ms2ger: Trying to reason about UA strings leads to madness.
  569. # [16:45] <karlcow> :)
  570. # [16:45] <karlcow> been there done that
  571. # [16:45] <MikeSmith> darobin: at least good to see that Luca has figured out that there's another browser scripting language other than WMLScript
  572. # [16:46] <jgraham> I reckon if I had to beat someone to death, I would rather have a tablet than a phone
  573. # [16:46] <jgraham> Is that a meaningful distinction?
  574. # [16:46] <TabAtkins> My point is that phablets exist.
  575. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> darobin: next we need a JavaScript API for Device Description Repositories
  576. # [16:46] <darobin> MikeSmith: VBScript?
  577. # [16:46] <MikeSmith> heh
  578. # [16:47] * darobin beats up TabAtkins with his thone
  579. # [16:47] <Ms2ger> jgraham, but if you brick your phone...
  580. # [16:47] <TabAtkins> MikeSmith: This is just your attempt at a bait-and-switch. As soon as we approve your spec and give you the /TR/DDR shortname, BAM, W3C IS ALL DANCE GAMES ALL THE TIME.
  581. # [16:47] <karlcow> http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/2012/10/08/introducing-device-stock-ua#comment97890952
  582. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> /TR/DDR?
  583. # [16:48] <Ms2ger> What's next, /TR/SovietRussia?
  584. # [16:48] * MikeSmith hopes that darobin's thone isn't a combination of a thong and phone
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  586. # [16:49] <darobin> MikeSmith: you know you really hope it is
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  588. # [16:50] <MikeSmith> TabAtkins: hahah :-)
  589. # [16:51] <MikeSmith> darobin: yeah almost as much as I'd hope to see Luca in a mankini
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  604. # [17:34] <hsivonen> WURFL--
  605. # [17:34] <dglazkov> good morning, Whatwg!
  606. # [17:35] <hsivonen> so they think marketing_name is a capability of the browser
  607. # [17:35] <hsivonen> *facepalm*
  608. # [17:35] <hsivonen> too bad Opera capitulated to them already and did the stock UA header
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  637. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> https://twitter.com/PaulLomax/status/299442850800734209 "Text columns in CSS are a total nightmare. The Times have spent £1m writing javascript to make columns work responsively"
  638. # [18:40] <MikeSmith> Really? I wonder how they calculated that.
  639. # [18:41] <rillian> lots of administrative and office space overhead?
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  645. # [18:50] <Hixie> TabAtkins, MikeSmith: btw, you should add yourself to http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Presentations if you like giving talks
  646. # [18:50] <Hixie> annevk: you should update http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Presentations
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  651. # [18:57] <annevk> Hixie: heh
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  654. # [18:58] <annevk> Hixie: but please say yes to that one request in the Netherlands ;)
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  657. # [19:01] <Hixie> dude i get asked like every week
  658. # [19:01] <Hixie> if i started saying yes i'd never get any work done
  659. # [19:01] <Hixie> and i'm already so far behind...
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  666. # [19:09] <MikeSmith> I like doing presentations about anything except Web-platform stuff
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  668. # [19:11] <Hixie> hah
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  676. # [19:17] <nimbu> :))))
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  678. # [19:17] <zewt> gar, why isn't ios webkit letting me defineProperty over scrollTop :| chrome allows it
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  681. # [19:19] <zewt> guess i can do it a little cleaner with a separate proxy property
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  683. # [19:20] <zewt> needing to be able to figure out if an onscroll event is happening because of a change to scrollTop, or because of the user dragging the window, so i can kill a scrollTop animation if needed
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  685. # [19:21] <zewt> which is particularly tricky with iOS scroll momentum
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  707. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> A question
  708. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> document.createElement("button").formMethod
  709. # [19:58] <Ms2ger> What should that return per spec?
  710. # [20:01] <JonathanNeal> heya
  711. # [20:02] * Hixie reads the spec to find the answer
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  713. # [20:02] <JonathanNeal> I love that there's interest in :media again.
  714. # [20:02] <Hixie> "must reflect the formmethod content attribute, limited to only known values"
  715. # [20:02] * Hixie follows links to find out what that means
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  717. # [20:02] <Hixie> "on getting, the IDL attribute must return the conforming value associated with the state the attribute is in (in its canonical case), if any, or the empty string if the attribute is in a state that has no associated keyword value or if the attribute is not in a state (e.g. the attribute is missing and there is no missing value default)"
  718. # [20:03] * Hixie looks up the formmethod content attribute
  719. # [20:03] <Hixie> "(There is no missing value default for the formmethod attribute.)"
  720. # [20:03] <JonathanNeal> https://twitter.com/necolas/status/299573744307941376 "We need native CSS media queries at the element/component/widget level, not just the viewport. Make it so, internetz."
  721. # [20:03] <Hixie> Ms2ger: i think it must return the empty string.
  722. # [20:03] * Hixie hopes he passed the test
  723. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> I think so too
  724. # [20:04] <Ms2ger> Now, Gecko's implementation doesn't...
  725. # [20:04] <Hixie> this changed relatively recently iirc
  726. # [20:04] * Ms2ger looks at others
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  729. # [20:07] <Ms2ger> Chrome gets it right
  730. # [20:07] <Ms2ger> But doesn't for formEnctype, which I think follows the same pattern
  731. # [20:07] <Hixie> it changed because mounir asked for it to change in https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17185
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  734. # [20:08] * Ms2ger shakes his fist at mounir
  735. # [20:08] <Ms2ger> Wait, huh
  736. # [20:09] * Ms2ger shakes his fist at mounir some more
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  740. # [20:24] <JonathanNeal> If we were to put media queries on individual element, would we use *:media or *::media ?
  741. # [20:24] <JonathanNeal> Pardon my lackluster understanding of : vs ::.
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  743. # [20:25] <JonathanNeal> *individual elements (oh how I wish my eyes would catch these things before I press return)
  744. # [20:25] <Hixie> :foo is a pseudo-class. it works like a dynamic class="" value. an element either has it or not.
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  746. # [20:26] <Hixie> ::foo is a pseudo-element. it works like a dynamic element. it doesn't match to an existing element, it relates to "fake" elements in the DOM
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  749. # [20:31] <JonathanNeal> So, if we were looking at section:media(max-width:20em) then we'd interpret it to mean "the section must be at least 20em wide to apply its css", whereas if we were looking at section::media(max-width:20em) we'd interpret it to mean "the page must be at least 20em wide to apply its css"?
  750. # [20:32] <JonathanNeal> Or is it implied that the :: pseudo-element belongs to the element?
  751. # [20:32] <JonathanNeal> (like a kind of shadow dom)
  752. # [20:33] <Hixie> neither of those would make sense, since you can't really have selectors depending on the layout
  753. # [20:33] <Hixie> but
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  755. # [20:34] <JonathanNeal> Also, div:before { content: ''; position: absolute; ... }, not a pseudo-element?
  756. # [20:34] <Hixie> it's easiest to understand the : and :: thing by looking at existing ones
  757. # [20:34] <Hixie> :before is a legacy name, it's really called ::before
  758. # [20:34] <Hixie> same with :first-line
  759. # [20:34] <Hixie> it's really ::first-line
  760. # [20:34] <JonathanNeal> and ::first-letter?
  761. # [20:34] <Hixie> so ::before is a pesudo-element because it matches an element that isn't actually in the DOM
  762. # [20:34] <Hixie> yeah, and ::after
  763. # [20:35] <Hixie> all four of those match elements that don't actually exist
  764. # [20:35] <Hixie> ::first-letter matches a fake <span> that surrounds the first letter of another element
  765. # [20:35] <JonathanNeal> Thanks, I've learned something relevant now too.
  766. # [20:35] <Hixie> so p::first-letter matches the inner element in: <p><::first-letter>H</::first-letter>ello</p>
  767. # [20:36] <Hixie> whereas p:hover matches the <p> in: <p class=":hover">Hello</p>
  768. # [20:36] <Hixie> conceptually
  769. # [20:36] <JonathanNeal> That makes sense.
  770. # [20:36] <Hixie> you can think of p::foo as really being short for "p > ::foo"
  771. # [20:36] <JonathanNeal> I might write up a blog post about this, can I quote you or attribute you to this knowledge dump you've given me?
  772. # [20:36] <Hixie> (that's also why pseudo-elements have to be at the end)
  773. # [20:37] <Hixie> (but pseudo-classes can be anywhere)
  774. # [20:37] <JonathanNeal> I never knew that's how it worked, and the way you've explained it makes a lot of sense.
  775. # [20:39] <JonathanNeal> So, like p:hover, p:media could be interpreted as a state of <p>?
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  777. # [20:39] <Hixie> yeah
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  779. # [20:39] <Hixie> though if you're depending on the style of the <p> that is pretty dodgy
  780. # [20:39] <Hixie> it's very very easy to end up with infinite loops if you define a selector based on the results of CSS properties
  781. # [20:40] <JonathanNeal> Yes, it is. We had a discussion about this with :hover once too.
  782. # [20:40] <Hixie> yeah even :hover falls into this
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  784. # [20:44] <JonathanNeal> I do like the idea of letting elements respond to their state vs the state of the page. For instance, in a 960 grid, being 12-columns-wide in 40em is very different than being 4-columns-wide in 40em. Right now, the best way to target this experience is to use a combination of media queries and classes <div class="four-columns-wide"><div class="widget"/></div> @media (max-width: 40em) { .four-columns-wide .widget { /* styles */ } }
  785. # [20:44] <JonathanNeal> This has the adverse effect of increasing the specificity and bloating the markup.
  786. # [20:45] <JonathanNeal> Whereas .widget:media(max-width: 26em) { /* styles .widget when it falls at or below 26em, and the selector weight stays happy */ }
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  789. # [20:48] <JonathanNeal> Would this be inline with the existing specification theory?
  790. # [20:48] * nimbu1 is now known as divya
  791. # [20:49] <Hixie> .widget:media(max-width: 26em) { width: 27em; }
  792. # [20:49] <JonathanNeal> .widget:hover { display: none; }
  793. # [20:50] <JonathanNeal> Consistent bugs. :)
  794. # [20:50] <JonathanNeal> Actually, maybe we could finally define what should happen in a loop.
  795. # [20:50] <Hixie> yes, :hover suffers from this. it's still a bad thing. :-)
  796. # [20:51] <JonathanNeal> Yes, but the benefit of :media and how it resolves the selector weight issue make it worth it to address the infinite loop bug.
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  799. # [20:57] <JonathanNeal> Let me test the waters with this … p:media(page-max-width: 40em) ?
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  801. # [20:58] <JonathanNeal> where p:media(page-max-width: 40em) { /*this*/ } is synonymous with @media (max-width: 40em) { p { /*this*/ } }
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  803. # [20:59] <JonathanNeal> Very very bad or actually close to something that could be?
  804. # [20:59] <Hixie> TabAtkins would be a better person to answer that
  805. # [21:01] <JonathanNeal> TabAtkins: join our party!
  806. # [21:01] * JonathanNeal hands him a hat.
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  829. # [21:43] <greggman> Hixie: I'm trying to add a proposal to the wiki but maybe I don't have permissions to make a new page? Comparing to another media wiki, when I go to a URL that does not exist there's a "create" button near the top right. But no such button is appearing on the whatwg wiki..user: gman
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  842. # [21:56] <gman2> Can anyone here help me with this? I'm trying to add a proposal to the wiki but maybe I don't have permissions to make a new page? Comparing to another media wiki, when I go to a URL that does not exist there's a "create" button near the top right. But no such button is appearing on the whatwg wiki..user: gman
  843. # [21:56] <Hixie> gman2: weird
  844. # [21:56] <Hixie> GPHemsley: can you help gman2 out?
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  847. # [21:57] <Hixie> i dunno what you have to do to be able to create a page :-)
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  850. # [22:00] <gman2> Hacking the url to an edit page url I get permission errors "You do not have permission to create pages, for the following reason: You do not have permission to create new pages."
  851. # [22:01] <gman2> If you can't give me permission to make new pages maybe someone could make this page? http://wiki.whatwg.org/index.php?title=CanvasInWorkers&action=edit and then I can edit it
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  856. # [22:06] <boblet> annevk, TabAtkins thx for the takes on del/s, btw. Much obliged.
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  864. # [22:19] <Hixie> gman2: sorry, had a kernel panic. will create the page momentarily.
  865. # [22:20] <Hixie> gman2: ok try now
  866. # [22:21] <JonathanNeal> How much weight do :: selectors add?
  867. # [22:21] <JonathanNeal> as much as a class name?
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  869. # [22:23] <gman2> Hixie: No luck :-( I tried logging out and logging back in. I tried another browser
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  871. # [22:23] <Hixie> gman2: the page should exist at least though no?
  872. # [22:24] <gman2> Hixie: This page? http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/CanvasInWorkers
  873. # [22:25] <GPHemsley> Hixie, gman2: You must be a registered and autoconfirmed user to create pages.
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  875. # [22:25] <Hixie> GPHemsley: did i miscreate his account? :-/
  876. # [22:26] <GPHemsley> Hixie, gman2: You can become an autoconfirmed user by making edits to existing pages and waiting a few days. Or you can be added manually to the user group.
  877. # [22:26] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Nope; this is an additional spam prevention measure.
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  879. # [22:26] <Hixie> we should just make it so anyone can create pages, i mean, nobody who's contacted us to get an account has then spammed anything right?
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  881. # [22:26] <GPHemsley> Hixie: Never say never :P
  882. # [22:27] <gman2> Hixie, GPHemsley: Okay but still, can someone please create this page http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/CanvasInWorkers so I can edit it :-)
  883. # [22:28] <GPHemsley> gman2: Hixie already did
  884. # [22:28] <gman2> GPHemsley, Hixie: Thank you.
  885. # [22:29] <GPHemsley> Hixie: You can add users to the autoconfirmed user group manually, if you want, just by going to [[Special:UserRights]].
  886. # [22:30] <GPHemsley> If anyone wants to know what rights each user type has, you can go here: http://wiki.whatwg.org/wiki/Special:ListGroupRights
  887. # [22:31] <GPHemsley> In general, it's (all) < Users < Autoconfirmed users < Administrators.
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  891. # [22:31] <GPHemsley> (Bots, which we don't have any of, get somewhat different rights.)
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  899. # [22:40] <Hixie> GPHemsley: i think we should err on the side of being as open as possible until we have a real problem
  900. # [22:41] <Hixie> and then do the minimum possible to avoid that problem
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  904. # [22:49] * GPHemsley is not the biggest fan of reaction over proaction.
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  907. # [22:52] <GPHemsley> Hixie: But anyway, I've enabled article and talk page creation for newly registered users.
  908. # [22:54] <GPHemsley> Hixie: But I will say for the record that I only did it because you asked me to. If spammy articles get created, I'm not cleaning them up. ;)
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  920. # [23:07] <Hixie> GPHemsley: fair enough :-) thanks :-)
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The end :)