/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2014-08-08 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Fri Aug 08 00:00:00 2014
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  15. # [00:29] <astearns> crankharder: default-src: * will disable inline script and style, and eval
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  40. # [01:27] <Hixie_> Domenic: you around?
  41. # [01:27] <Hixie_> Domenic: what is PromiseBuiltinCapability() ?
  42. # [01:32] * Hixie_ stares at ProceedToTranslate(loader, load, p) Abstract Operation in confusion
  43. # [01:35] * Hixie_ wonders what PromiseCatch() does and what returning PromiseCatch() is supposed to mean
  44. # [01:37] <jtcranmer> annevk: I've got a tough UTR#46 question for you
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  46. # [01:38] <jtcranmer> should I say faß.de and xn--fa-hia.de are "equivalent" domains?
  47. # [01:38] <Hixie_> how does PromiseThen(PromiseOf(undefined), F) differ from just calling F?
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  49. # [01:44] <Hixie_> man, i think the people who complain that the HTML spec is "too imperative" really need to read the ES6 spec to get some perspective.
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  57. # [01:52] <Hixie_> kittens, it's hard to follow promise-based code
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  59. # [01:52] <Hixie_> how do you even draw a flow chart for it
  60. # [01:52] <Hixie_> do you draw the line from the place that does the call, or from the place that's going to trigger the promise?
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  63. # [01:57] <jtcranmer> it's not hard if you use generators and promise wrappers
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  65. # [01:59] <TabAtkins> Promises are just a standardized abstraction over callback-based code, so whatever you've figured out for that, you can use for Promises.
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  70. # [02:05] <Domenic> Hixie_: PromiseBuiltinCapability() is a way of creating a record containing { [[Resolve]], [[Reject]], [[Promise]] } where the first two control the fate of [[Promise]]
  71. # [02:06] <Domenic> Hixie_: PromiseCatch(p, f) should be the same as p.catch(f), aka p.then(undefined, f), except it will work even if someone messes with the Promise global
  72. # [02:06] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: i've never had to trace code as complicated as the loader stuff in the ES6 spec before, so it's never come up...
  73. # [02:06] <Domenic> Hixie_: thus, returning PromiseCatch(p, f) will return the derived promise generated
  74. # [02:07] <Domenic> Hixie_: PromiseThen(PromiseOf(undefined), F) should be equivalent to EnqueueJob(<job_that_calls_F>, "PromiseTasks") I am pretty sure
  75. # [02:07] <Hixie_> Domenic: but PromiseBuiltinCapability() takes no arguments, so wtf are [[Resolve]], [[Reject]], and [[Promise]] ?
  76. # [02:07] <Hixie_> Domenic: and why would you ever need such a record
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  79. # [02:07] <Domenic> Hixie_: it is a way to create new promises, along with the things that control them
  80. # [02:08] <Hixie_> there has got to be a simpler way to spec that
  81. # [02:08] <Domenic> Hixie_: it is equivalent to `function promiseBuiltinCapability() { var resolve, reject; var promise = new Promise((resolve_, reject_) => { resolve = resolve_; reject = reject_; }); return { promise, resolve, reject }; }`
  82. # [02:08] <Domenic> It is only necessary because the ES spec doesn't have closures
  83. # [02:09] <Domenic> so it is easier to create these capability records and use them in a linear fashion, than to nest your code inside `var promise = new Promise((resolve, reject) => { /* oh no closures my only weakness */ })`
  84. # [02:09] <Hixie_> Domenic: i've no idea what that code does
  85. # [02:09] <Hixie_> Domenic: it looks like perl
  86. # [02:09] <Domenic> Hixie_: well, OK, guess it wasn't helpful. But, it will give you an object { promise, resolve, reject }
  87. # [02:10] <Domenic> where promise is pending
  88. # [02:10] <Domenic> and resolve and reject change the fate of promise
  89. # [02:10] <Hixie_> but what are resolve and reject?
  90. # [02:10] <Domenic> resolve is a function that resolves promise; reject is a function that rejects promise
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  92. # [02:10] <Hixie_> what do "resolves promise" and "rejects promise" mean?
  93. # [02:10] <Hixie_> and why can't that just be built-in to promises?
  94. # [02:11] <Hixie_> i don't understand why there has to be all these explicit functions internal to the spec
  95. # [02:11] <Hixie_> instead of just saying "return a new promise"
  96. # [02:11] <Domenic> ignoring the case where you call resolve(anotherPromise), "resolve promisewith x" means "the promise will be successfull, with x" and "reject promise with x" means "the promise will fail, with r"
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  98. # [02:11] <Domenic> where "successful with x" means when you do p.then(onSuccess, onFail), onSuccess gets called with x
  99. # [02:12] <Domenic> these can't be built in to promises because then anyone could resolve a promise, which is bad---a promise's fate should only be determined by the person who creates it
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  101. # [02:13] <Hixie_> i don't mean "built in" as in "exposed as an api"
  102. # [02:13] <Hixie_> i mean, just part of the definition of the spec concept
  103. # [02:13] <Hixie_> the spec right now is so utterly convoluted
  104. # [02:13] <Domenic> Ah. They are. You can just do ResolvePromise(p, x)
  105. # [02:13] <Hixie_> so why does the spec go through all these crazy hoops
  106. # [02:13] <Domenic> I am not sure what context you are seeing them used where the PromiseCapability is used
  107. # [02:13] <Hixie_> instead of just saying that
  108. # [02:13] <Domenic> One possible reason is because you might need to pass capability.[[Resolve]] to a real user
  109. # [02:14] <Domenic> Another might be that it hasn't had a chance to go through review; I believe the module loader section of the spec is in the process of being handed over from jorendorff to allenwb
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  111. # [02:15] <Hixie_> e.g. ProceedToLocate() calls PromiseOf(undefined) which calls PromiseBuiltinCapability() which calls CreatePromiseCapabilityRecord() which is an 11-step algorithm
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  113. # [02:15] <Hixie_> but i don't see why ProceedToLocate() can't just say "create a new promise" and the spec say somewhere that "a new promise is something that looks like _bla_"
  114. # [02:15] <Hixie_> without any need for these "Let constructorResult be the result of calling the [[Call]] internal method of constructor, passing promise and (executor) as the arguments" steps
  115. # [02:16] <Hixie_> whatever that means
  116. # [02:16] <Domenic> Not everyone hates formal language
  117. # [02:16] <Domenic> "create a new promise," backed by lots of implicit knowledge, is not really any better than PromiseOf(undefined), backed by explicit steps
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  119. # [02:17] <Hixie_> this isn't a formal language though
  120. # [02:17] <Hixie_> it's still just english
  121. # [02:17] <Domenic> It's very close to one
  122. # [02:18] <Domenic> The steps correspond almost 1:1 with (unoptimized) implementation code
  123. # [02:18] <Domenic> compare https://github.com/domenic/Array.prototype.contains/blob/master/spec.md and https://github.com/domenic/Array.prototype.contains/blob/master/reference-implementation/index.js
  124. # [02:19] <Hixie_> that's unfortunately not a benefit
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  126. # [02:19] <Hixie_> but whatever
  127. # [02:19] <Hixie_> my feedback is that the spec is unreadable :-)
  128. # [02:20] <Domenic> the barrier to entry is certainly high
  129. # [02:20] <Domenic> and i could believe that the sections you're looking at are particularly bad
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  131. # [02:21] <Hixie_> right now i'm still trying to figure out what the Loader Record is created
  132. # [02:21] <Hixie_> s/what/where/
  133. # [02:21] <Hixie_> i'm trying to trace execution of the module loading stuf
  134. # [02:22] <Hixie_> i started at RequestLoad(), and i've traced it down to UpdateLinkSetOnLoad() on one side and InstantiateSucceeded() on the other
  135. # [02:22] <Domenic> I wonder if it'd be easier to trace by using a debugger against a polyfill
  136. # [02:22] <Hixie_> (no sign yet of a loader being created)
  137. # [02:23] <Hixie_> btw the kind of thing i mean when i say it's not a formal language is "Let body be the result of parsing load.[[Source]], interpreted as UTF-16 encoded Unicode text as described in 10.1.1, using Module as the goal symbol. Throw a SyntaxError exception if the parse fails or if any static semantics errors are detected."
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  139. # [02:24] <Hixie_> bbl, gotta go
  140. # [02:24] <Hixie_> thanks for the help btw
  141. # [02:24] <Domenic> kk, gl hf
  142. # [02:24] <Domenic> hope jorendorff clears things up tomorrow :)
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  146. # [02:43] <MikeSmith> explicit functions internal to the spec" is the style the entire ES spec's written in, isn't it? seems like anything new that's added needs to follow the same style. unless the whole spec is rewritten
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  162. # [03:22] <caitp> it probably should be reimagined completely
  163. # [03:22] <caitp> it won't be, but it would be a net positive
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  226. # [07:17] <caitp> did http://www.w3c-test.org break or something? seems to be broken in canary at least =(
  227. # [07:17] <caitp> looks like it's not serving MANIFEST.json
  228. # [07:19] <caitp> guess I'll just run my own :u
  229. # [07:23] <Streusel> the site works, can't find any manifest.json though.
  230. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> caitp: w3c-test.org gets wedged sometimes. I may need to just restart the server
  231. # [07:30] <MikeSmith> but it looks fine to me right now
  232. # [07:31] <caitp> I get a 404 for MANIFEST.json, and subsequent reference errors because of that
  233. # [07:32] <caitp> (using the test runner)
  234. # [07:32] <MikeSmith> that's because there's no MANIFEST.json file
  235. # [07:33] <caitp> yeah, which the runner seems to need, thus no good right now =P but it's alright
  236. # [07:33] <caitp> not going to hack on more test failures at 2am on a friday anyways, nite
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  239. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> so it looks like some recent change to the tools/scripts/manifest.py script broke the manifest build
  240. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> and so the MANIFEST.json file's not getting regenerated
  241. # [07:37] <MikeSmith> I get the same error locally
  242. # [07:38] <MikeSmith> File "tools/scripts/manifest.py", line 565, in update_manifest
  243. # [07:38] <MikeSmith> manifest = load(kwargs["path"])
  244. # [07:38] <MikeSmith> KeyError: 'path'
  245. # [07:38] <Streusel> interesting array name
  246. # [07:39] <MikeSmith> that's not some built-in python array?
  247. # [07:40] <Streusel> I don't have a clue about python and their arrays, although I would assume it works like any other, I just thought the name was interesting
  248. # [07:40] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/acbcad1cb71c6eebd2a63c5cf16ea7f366812f48
  249. # [07:42] <MikeSmith> committed without review
  250. # [07:42] <Streusel> 9 days ago, and was only caught now? o-o
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  252. # [07:43] <MikeSmith> I've been away for a week, and left Ms2ger in charge :)
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  254. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> looks like the code's supposed to just use a default if no path value is explicitly specified from the command line
  255. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/acbcad1cb71c6eebd2a63c5cf16ea7f366812f48/tools/scripts/manifest.py#L579https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/blob/acbcad1cb71c6eebd2a63c5cf16ea7f366812f48/tools/scripts/manifest.py#L579
  256. # [07:47] <MikeSmith> but it seems to not be doing that
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  258. # [07:48] <MikeSmith> ah wait that's just when it calls the parser
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  261. # [07:57] <zcorpan_> hsivonen: ping http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/whatwg/20140805#l-400
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  303. # [09:01] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, I'm pretty sure that https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/commit/acbcad1cb71c6eebd2a63c5cf16ea7f366812f48 doesn't break anything that worked before
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  310. # [09:38] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, and reviewed at https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1133
  311. # [09:39] <MikeSmith> ok
  312. # [09:40] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: so I guess I'll need to figure out what earlier change it was that actually did break it
  313. # [09:40] <Ms2ger> There's a pointer in my commit message :)
  314. # [09:41] <MikeSmith> ah ok
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  335. # [10:17] <MikeSmith> um
  336. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: in fact your change is what broke it, as far as I can see
  337. # [10:19] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: if I check out the parent of that commit, the script was still working then
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  339. # [10:22] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, how? It tried to fetch opts.foo, and opts isn't declared anywhere
  340. # [10:23] <MikeSmith> Ms2ger: dunno but apparently it did work
  341. # [10:24] <Ms2ger> Can you print opts.path there?
  342. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> sure, gimme a second
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  344. # [10:25] <MikeSmith> opts.path: /opt/workspace/web-platform-tests/MANIFEST.json
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  346. # [10:27] <Ms2ger> Huh
  347. # [10:27] <Ms2ger> Oh, I see
  348. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> seems like opts is assigned on line 599 or so..
  349. # [10:28] <Ms2ger> MikeSmith, at line 600, add path=opts.path
  350. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> initialized
  351. # [10:28] <MikeSmith> ok
  352. # [10:30] <MikeSmith> success
  353. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> if you commit that I'll review it
  354. # [10:31] <Ms2ger> I was just going to suggest the opposite, but sure :)
  355. # [10:31] <MikeSmith> heh
  356. # [10:35] <Ms2ger> r? https://github.com/w3c/web-platform-tests/pull/1163
  357. # [10:43] <hsivonen> zcorpan: pong
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  365. # [11:00] <Ms2ger> Does anyone else than Gecko and Servo implement new Document()?
  366. # [11:02] <zcorpan> hsivonen: what is the 8 ball verdict for today?
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  376. # [11:34] <annevk_> jtcranmer: from the top of my head, per the URL Standard those are not equivalent, the first normalizes to fass.de
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  444. # [14:18] <Ms2ger> zcorpan_, r? https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/r/378
  445. # [14:18] <zcorpan_> Ms2ger: done
  446. # [14:18] <Ms2ger> Ta
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  449. # [14:19] <Ms2ger> zcorpan_, https://critic.hoppipolla.co.uk/showcomment?chain=669 is done now, right?
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  457. # [14:27] <zcorpan_> yes. resolved it
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  463. # [14:37] <Ms2ger> Thanks!
  464. # [14:46] <JakeA> annevk: when you said new WindowClient(), were you thinking of that being ServiceWorker only or on Window too?
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  569. # [18:15] <smaug____> Domenic: I don't know where you get your idea the output is the thing to read data from. https://github.com/sysapps/tcp-udp-sockets/issues/69
  570. # [18:15] <smaug____> never seen that elsewhere
  571. # [18:15] <Domenic> smaug____: things come out ... of the output ...
  572. # [18:15] <smaug____> fprintf(stdout, "foo")
  573. # [18:16] <Domenic> right, then the user reads from standard out, after someone put something there for them to read from
  574. # [18:16] <smaug____> API user doesn't read from stdout, in general
  575. # [18:16] <smaug____> one writes to output
  576. # [18:16] <smaug____> read from input
  577. # [18:16] <smaug____> that is how APIs work
  578. # [18:17] <smaug____> no reason to make web APIs work differently than rest of the world
  579. # [18:17] <Domenic> the java example in that threat is making me reconsider
  580. # [18:17] <Domenic> i agree no reason to depart from other programming models
  581. # [18:18] <smaug____> fprintf(stdout, "foo") is just the same as the java case
  582. # [18:18] <Domenic> the java example is general
  583. # [18:18] <smaug____> except that C is ancient
  584. # [18:18] <Domenic> stdout/stdin is an odd case, or so i thought
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  586. # [18:19] <Domenic> i will need to do some research, as it is still mind-boggling to me that the consumer would write things *in* to the *output*... the *producer* would do that, sure, but not the consumer
  587. # [18:19] <smaug____> I've never seen any IO library which reads from output and writes to input
  588. # [18:19] <smaug____> in general
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  590. # [18:20] <smaug____> of course one can do some piping (sp?) in which case you write to output and then read form the same stream elsewhere
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  597. # [18:37] <netzhuffle> hi, Question: Why is the picture element only under whatwg.org/specs but not under developers.whatwg.org?
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  599. # [18:39] <Ms2ger> Looks like the devs version is from 20 July
  600. # [18:41] * Guest33999 is now known as jory
  601. # [18:43] <netzhuffle> Ms2ger: can I find that date somewhere?
  602. # [18:44] <Ms2ger> I found it in a comment at the bottom of the page
  603. # [18:45] <netzhuffle> I see, thanks :)
  604. # [18:45] <netzhuffle> is it regenerated automatically or manually?
  605. # [18:46] <Ms2ger> I don't know what the current situation is
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  648. # [20:02] <Hixie_> jorendorff: i'm here
  649. # [20:02] <jorendorff> OK! I'm ready
  650. # [20:03] <Hixie_> i've been trying to trace how the loader works
  651. # [20:03] <Hixie_> right now i've got http://www.gliffy.com/go/publish/6036438
  652. # [20:03] <Hixie_> (scroll down a bit)
  653. # [20:03] <Hixie_> what i am primarily looking for right now is "what creates the Loader?"
  654. # [20:04] * jacobolu_ is now known as jacobolus
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  656. # [20:05] <smaug____> Why does postMessage work still on a closed BroadcastChannel
  657. # [20:05] <smaug____> somewhat odd
  658. # [20:06] <smaug____> I would expect some exception
  659. # [20:06] <Hixie_> that does sound wrong
  660. # [20:07] <Hixie_> yeah that's an oversight
  661. # [20:07] <Hixie_> file a bug?
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  663. # [20:07] <smaug____> ok
  664. # [20:08] <Hixie_> thanks!
  665. # [20:09] <jorendorff> Hixie: There's just one Loader and it's used again and again.
  666. # [20:09] <Hixie_> where is it created?
  667. # [20:09] <jorendorff> It's not, in ES6. ES6 doesn't specify anything about it.
  668. # [20:10] <Hixie_> so, if i create it, how do i pass it to ES6?
  669. # [20:10] <jorendorff> reading a bit
  670. # [20:12] <jorendorff> Hixie_: Do you call (or plan to call) "Initialization"? http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-initialization
  671. # [20:12] <Hixie_> i don't do anything yet
  672. # [20:12] <Hixie_> i'm waiting for allen to update the spec like he said he would before i try to reference it
  673. # [20:12] <Hixie_> (that involves changing that part, amongst others)
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  675. # [20:14] <Hixie_> jorendorff: btw, when the spec says things like "Return ProcessLoadDependencies(load, loader, depsList)", does it mean to return the result of calling that operation, or to return a reference to that operation bound to those arguments?
  676. # [20:15] <jorendorff> Return the result of.
  677. # [20:15] <jorendorff> Hixie_: OK. So, one thing "Initialization" does is create the initial Realm.
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  679. # [20:15] <jorendorff> A Realm is a global and all the associated junk
  680. # [20:15] <Hixie_> allenwb assures me that that initial realm is ignorable
  681. # [20:15] <Hixie_> because it's never used
  682. # [20:15] <jorendorff> oh, is he going to delete that?
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  684. # [20:15] <Hixie_> i think he wants to keep it for node.js or something
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  686. # [20:16] <jorendorff> Hixie_: ...great.
  687. # [20:16] <jorendorff> Hixie_: In any case, when you create a realm...
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  689. # [20:16] <jorendorff> there's no loader initially; what HTML has to do is make one, and then set the realm's [[Loader]] to it.
  690. # [20:17] <Hixie_> where does the realm get created?
  691. # [20:18] <jorendorff> Hixie_: (this is not terribly familiar stuff to me)
  692. # [20:19] <Hixie_> who is it familiar to? everyone i speak to says that. :-/
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  694. # [20:19] <jorendorff> Hixie_: My guess is, dherman or allenwb wrote all this.
  695. # [20:20] <Hixie_> is anyone implementing it?
  696. # [20:20] <Hixie_> i mean, they're the people who'd be most familiar with it...
  697. # [20:20] <jorendorff> Hixie_: I want to implement Reflect.Realm because I think it's cool, there's a guy at Moz interested, but it's just not done yet
  698. # [20:21] <jorendorff> I mean the *spec* isn't shovel-ready
  699. # [20:21] <Hixie_> ah
  700. # [20:21] <Hixie_> maybe i'm just doing all this too early
  701. # [20:21] <jorendorff> I can tell you generally how it's supposed to work
  702. # [20:21] <jorendorff> HTML must have stuff that happens when a new window or iframe is created, so a new Window is needed
  703. # [20:21] <Hixie_> what i am really trying to do ultimately is extend the module system so that it's the same system that handles loading e.g. images and style sheets
  704. # [20:22] <jorendorff> yes
  705. # [20:22] <jorendorff> well, the Loader stuff at least has some concrete semantics, though it's been 100% stripped of comments
  706. # [20:22] <Hixie_> "When a browsing context is first created, it must be created with a single Document in its session history, whose address is about:blank, which is marked as being an HTML document, whose character encoding is UTF-8, and which is both ready for post-load tasks and completely loaded immediately, along with a new Window object that the Document is associated with."
  707. # [20:22] <Hixie_> looks like allen said i then had to do some of the steps of 8.5 Initialization, in particular calling 8.5.1 InitializeFirstRealm ( realm ) after calling CreateRealm().
  708. # [20:22] <Hixie_> based on this e-mail i'm looking at
  709. # [20:23] <Hixie_> but he's going to rename that to InitializeHostDefinedRealm
  710. # [20:23] <jorendorff> ok, well, i won't try to get in the middle of that
  711. # [20:23] <jorendorff> sounds like fun
  712. # [20:23] <Hixie_> so anyway, the point is you're saying i need to create the Loader here too?
  713. # [20:23] <Hixie_> ok
  714. # [20:23] <Hixie_> that sounds doable
  715. # [20:23] <Hixie_> that's good, actually, it means i can define what exactly the Loader is
  716. # [20:23] <jorendorff> yeah.
  717. # [20:23] <jorendorff> yes
  718. # [20:24] <jorendorff> that's the design intent of the module loader, we don't have "fetch", you do
  719. # [20:24] <Hixie_> and make it something more elaborate than ES's built-in Loader
  720. # [20:24] <Hixie_> i wonder how hard it would be to extend it enough to support import styles from "foo.css";
  721. # [20:25] <Hixie_> or import html from "htmlimport.html";
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  723. # [20:25] <jorendorff> not so hard. let's see. switching behaviors based on the file extensions is a little weird
  724. # [20:25] <Hixie_> i was thinking switching based on magic keywords "styles" and "html"
  725. # [20:25] <Hixie_> or, based on the MIME type of the fetched file
  726. # [20:26] <Hixie_> not sure what you'd do with the keyword if you base it on the MIME type
  727. # [20:26] <jorendorff> ok
  728. # [20:26] <Hixie_> but basing it on the MIME type seems logical too
  729. # [20:27] <Hixie_> maybe import foo from "mystylesheet"; causes a "foo" variable whose value is the created <link> element to be exposed
  730. # [20:27] <Hixie_> that would be quite useful
  731. # [20:27] <Hixie_> i wonder if the "import" machinery can handle the thing being exposed not being a Module
  732. # [20:27] <jorendorff> that's doable, I'm like 98% sure
  733. # [20:27] <jorendorff> damn
  734. # [20:27] <jorendorff> you're right, it can't
  735. # [20:27] <Hixie_> or maybe i still export a Module but i just add some new fields on it
  736. # [20:28] <jorendorff> right
  737. # [20:28] <jorendorff> that is doable
  738. # [20:28] <Hixie_> to expose the underlying <link> or whatnot
  739. # [20:28] <jorendorff> just by specifying a suitable "translate" and "instantiate" hook
  740. # [20:28] <jorendorff> instantiate containing the important part
  741. # [20:28] <Hixie_> i'm gonna try to finish this flowchart, i think. it's helping me a lot in getting a handle on this thing.
  742. # [20:28] <Hixie_> and i can't really make progress til allen's done these changes anyway.
  743. # [20:29] <jorendorff> flow chart?
  744. # [20:29] <Hixie_> <Hixie_> right now i've got http://www.gliffy.com/go/publish/6036438
  745. # [20:30] <Hixie_> bbiab, lunch
  746. # [20:30] <Hixie_> thanks for the help so far
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  748. # [20:33] <Hixie_> (filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=26546 on the import styles idea)
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  783. # [21:42] <smaug____> if a script in page A creates some object using 'new someotherwindow.Foobar();', what is the incumbent settings object when ctor is called?
  784. # [21:43] * smaug____ never remembers this stuff, and 'incumbent settings object' is so bizarre term that it really doesn't help with this
  785. # [21:46] <smaug____> Hixie_: ^
  786. # [21:46] <smaug____> I assume incumbent settings object is the one from page A
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  788. # [21:48] * Krinkle|detached is now known as Krinkle
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  792. # [21:57] <jtcranmer> annevk: I'm aware they're not equivalent
  793. # [21:58] <jtcranmer> the question is, since they are both A-labels of faß.de (just under different definitions of transitonal/nontransitional processing)
  794. # [21:58] <jtcranmer> would it be better to, e.g., consider user@fass.de and user@xn--fa-hia.de to be "equal"
  795. # [21:59] <smaug____> Hixie_: any chance to get some examples of various settings object to the spec ?
  796. # [21:59] <annevk> no, registrars messed that up
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  798. # [22:00] <smaug____> incumbent settings object vs. entry settings object
  799. # [22:00] <annevk> jtcranmer: well not just registrars, but also the IETF
  800. # [22:01] <annevk> and whoever else is to blame for IDNA2008
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  802. # [22:04] <jtcranmer> annevk: theoretically, they're supposed to be owned by the same people
  803. # [22:04] <jtcranmer> which is why I bring it up
  804. # [22:05] <annevk> jtcranmer: in practice, they are owned by distinct entities
  805. # [22:05] <annevk> jtcranmer: which is also what the .de registry wants, but most (if not all) browsers consider bad for security
  806. # [22:06] * Krinkle is now known as Krinkle|detached
  807. # [22:06] <jtcranmer> the registrars even bungled that up?
  808. # [22:07] <jtcranmer> okay, so I'll treat all the assurances that IDNA says registrars are supposed to do as packs of lies
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  816. # [22:07] <annevk> so they a) don't want to handle bundling, b) in Germany they want ß and ss to be distinct
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  818. # [22:12] <Hixie_> smaug____: yeah, it's A, i think, because that's all within the JS spec and the JS spec doesn't manipulate the stack of settings objects
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  820. # [22:12] <Hixie_> smaug____: what part of "incumbent settings object" is bizarre? i'd happily use a better term if you have one
  821. # [22:12] <smaug____> Hixie_: just some example would be good
  822. # [22:12] <smaug____> incumbent settings object vs. entry settings object
  823. # [22:15] <Hixie_> ah, that's a good idea
  824. # [22:16] <Hixie_> will file a bug on that
  825. # [22:16] <smaug____> I just filed
  826. # [22:16] <Hixie_> even better :-)
  827. # [22:16] <Hixie_> thanks!
  828. # [22:19] <Hixie_> jorendorff: does "The System object is the Loader Object instance associated with the Realm of the current global object" mean "The property "System" of the global object is the current Realm's [[loader]]"?
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  831. # [22:26] <Domenic> Hixie_: I am 90% sure that is true
  832. # [22:26] <Hixie_> interesting
  833. # [22:27] <Hixie_> (isn't window.System going to clash with existing code?)
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  836. # [22:28] <Domenic> I wonder what happens when you override window.System
  837. # [22:28] <Domenic> will the browser try to use it anyway?
  838. # [22:29] <Domenic> or does it only work if you override properties of the built-in window.System
  839. # [22:29] * Joins: tantek (~tantek@corp-nat.p2p.sfo1.mozilla.com)
  840. # [22:29] <Domenic> System is a dumb name anyway, maybe it'll conflict and they'll change it
  841. # [22:29] <TabAtkins> The browser will certainly use the original one.
  842. # [22:29] <Domenic> TabAtkins: but the whole point of overridable loader hooks is to allow arbitrary user code to execute at those points
  843. # [22:30] <TabAtkins> Ah, then I dunno.
  844. # [22:30] <Domenic> yeah, unclear
  845. # [22:30] <Domenic> Hixie can probably tell us, now that he is an expert at this stuff ;)
  846. # [22:30] <Hixie_> i haven't traced this back far enough to reach [[loader]]
  847. # [22:30] <Hixie_> so i'll let you know!
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  850. # [22:34] * Hixie_ wonders what "Return PromiseThen(p, F)" means
  851. # [22:34] <Hixie_> (http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-promisethen is blank)
  852. # [22:34] <Hixie_> Domenic: any idea? ^
  853. # [22:34] <jorendorff> it needs to be changed. I'll file a bug. it means p.then(F)
  854. # [22:35] <jorendorff> possibly with some automatic coercions going on
  855. # [22:35] <Hixie_> what does that mean? return a new promise that resolves when F has been invoked?
  856. # [22:35] <jorendorff> Yes.
  857. # [22:36] <Hixie_> k
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  861. # [22:41] <Domenic> Hixie_: ah those sections rae still blank, wonderfully. They're supposed to just be un-tamper-withable versions of p.then(F), ya
  862. # [22:41] <Hixie_> jorendorff: why does the UpdateLinkSetOnLoad(linkSet, load) Abstract Operation sometimes (though not always) return a value? the return value seems to be ignored by the caller (which is always LoadSucceeded Functions)
  863. # [22:42] <Domenic> Hixie_: just guessing, but often "return values" in ES are just "did this function throw an exception or not" exception ~= abrupt completion.
  864. # [22:42] <Hixie_> that's ignored too
  865. # [22:43] <Hixie_> the caller just says "Call UpdateLinkSetOnLoad(linkSet, load)."
  866. # [22:43] <Hixie_> it ignores the result, abrupt or not
  867. # [22:43] <Domenic> ah OK. My guess is spec bug then. Allen caught many such bugs in my promises draft.
  868. # [22:44] <jorendorff> Hixie_: yeah, it should be changed for clarity to just say "7.a. Call LinkSetFailed... b. Return."
  869. # [22:44] <Hixie_> k
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  871. # [22:47] <jorendorff> Domenic: i added a comment to https://bugs.ecmascript.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2683 explaining what those abstract operations are for
  872. # [22:47] <jorendorff> Domenic: as for System conflicting -- it *is* a dumb name
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  874. # [22:48] <Domenic> jorendorff: ya looks good. I imagine all of the user-exposed versions will be implemented in terms of the abstract operations in one way or another.
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  876. # [22:49] <jorendorff> of course any name could have a conflict -- anyway, assuming one does occur with System, I think the intent was to use Realm.[[Loader]] consistently everywhere
  877. # [22:50] <Hixie_> Realm.[[loader]], lowercase L
  878. # [22:50] <Hixie_> ([[Loader]] is used on other records)
  879. # [22:51] <Hixie_> given PromiseThem(PromiseNew(A), B) in what order do A and B execute?
  880. # [22:51] <Hixie_> Then, not Them
  881. # [22:51] <Hixie_> or are none of them executed immediately?
  882. # [22:52] <jorendorff> where?
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  884. # [22:52] <Hixie_> where what?
  885. # [22:52] * Quits: TallTed (~Thud@63.119.36.36)
  886. # [22:52] <jorendorff> where does this occur?
  887. # [22:52] <Hixie_> http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-requestload
  888. # [22:53] <caitp> if native promises are anything like the conventions that have been agreed on by the community over the past few years, PromiseThen(not-a-function) should be irrelevant
  889. # [22:53] <jorendorff> (but Domenic can check me -- the answer is, A would be called immediately, and B definitely not during this event turn)
  890. # [22:53] <Hixie_> step 6 does "PromiseNew(F)", where F is a "CallNormalize(resolve, reject) Functions"
  891. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> I assume that PromiseNew(A) is the internal equivalent of new Promise(A).
  892. # [22:53] <jorendorff> yes
  893. # [22:53] <jorendorff> that one actually has spec text
  894. # [22:53] <Hixie_> so what are the "resolve" and "reject" arguments set to?
  895. # [22:53] <TabAtkins> So then yeah, A is executed immediately, as part of constructrion of the promise. B is executed when/if the first promise fulfills.
  896. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> The resolver and rejecter for the promise beign constructed.
  897. # [22:54] <Domenic> yepyep, Tab's got it
  898. # [22:54] <Hixie_> i tried to follow it down, but "resolvingFunctions.[[Resolve]], resolvingFunctions.[[Reject]]" doesn't mean anything to me
  899. # [22:54] <TabAtkins> Methods that, when called, resolve or reject that promise. They're the only way to manipulate the promise's state.
  900. # [22:54] * jorendorff is slightly relieved that the Promises spec is not a great deal more comprehensible than the Loader spec
  901. # [22:54] <jorendorff> though, i hasten to add
  902. # [22:55] <jorendorff> much more complete and correct
  903. # [22:55] <Hixie_> oh they're the spec-provided callbacks to actually resolve the promise, ok
  904. # [22:55] <TabAtkins> Yeah.
  905. # [22:56] <Hixie_> "Return the result of calling the [[Call]] internal method of resolve passing undefined and (name) as arguments" seems like a really convoluted way of just saying "resolve the promise"
  906. # [22:56] <Hixie_> but ok
  907. # [22:56] <jorendorff> yep
  908. # [22:56] <TabAtkins> Urf, agreed.
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  911. # [22:56] <jorendorff> this is one of those places where i would totally just file a pull request, if TC39 had a process
  912. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> This is why I switched the spec for the color classes to just use actual JS, because writing JS in prose is *terrible*.
  913. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> (And I needed enough detail that it was kinda bad to use prose.)
  914. # [22:57] <Hixie_> TabAtkins: i would have just said "resolve the promise with 'name' as the value"
  915. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> Normal prose, that is.
  916. # [22:57] <Hixie_> which seems like sufficient detail...
  917. # [22:57] <Hixie_> (along with corresponding changes around it, obviously)
  918. # [22:57] <Hixie_> anyway
  919. # [22:57] <TabAtkins> "Resolve promise F with "value"." is the defined language, I think.
  920. # [22:58] <Hixie_> yeah, something like that would be fine
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  923. # [23:00] <Hixie_> man, the ES spec uses this "Return Foo()" (where Foo() returns 'undefined' or nothing at all) style a _lot_
  924. # [23:00] <Hixie_> it's really confusing
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  929. # [23:01] <Hixie_> so wait, wait, wait
  930. # [23:01] <Hixie_> the function passed to PromiseNew() has to have 'resolve' and 'reject' arguments, right?
  931. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> Well, it'll get passed those args. It doesn't necessarily have to have them, obviously, since you're always allowed to ignore input args.
  932. # [23:02] <Hixie_> but why does the function passed as the second argument to PromiseThen() not have to also?
  933. # [23:02] <TabAtkins> PromiseThen() is nothing like PromiseNew().
  934. # [23:02] <Hixie_> i thought it was the same thing but chaining on from a previous promise
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  936. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> It doesn't get resolve/reject functions. You either return a value or throw a value; that resolves/rejects the chained promise automatically.
  937. # [23:03] <TabAtkins> (The constructor doesn't have the same behavior because you sometimes want to wait and resolve things *later*, by passing the resolve/reject functions to something outside.)
  938. # [23:03] <Hixie_> so there's kind of two types of promises? those whose handlers are async and those whose handlers are sync?
  939. # [23:04] <TabAtkins> No.
  940. # [23:04] <Hixie_> i'm so confused
  941. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> Most of the time, you deal with a promise by having your callback either (a) return a value (fulfilling the promise), (b) throw (rejecting the promise), or (c) return another promise (resolving the promise and slaving it to your returned promise, so it'll fulfill/reject later).
  942. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> But you need to bootstrap the promise in the constructor, so you're instead given the handles directly.
  943. # [23:05] <Hixie_> but CallNormalize() just does things synchronously
  944. # [23:05] <Hixie_> so why bother with a promise at all?
  945. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> I have no idea what that is, so shrug.
  946. # [23:05] <TabAtkins> I can just tell you about promises, not about whatever other crazy stuff the ES spec has in it.
  947. # [23:06] <Hixie_> jorendorff: ^
  948. # [23:06] <Hixie_> jorendorff: why does RequestLoad() use a promise to call CallNormalize()?
  949. # [23:06] <jorendorff> ok, this part of the pipeline is actually going to be a pleasant surprise for you, i hope
  950. # [23:07] <jorendorff> because it all sort of makes sense actually
  951. # [23:07] <Hixie_> try me :-)
  952. # [23:07] <jorendorff> second, multiple conversations...
  953. # [23:07] <jorendorff> ok. to answer your question first
  954. # [23:08] <jorendorff> it's just so that the normalize hook is called async
  955. # [23:08] <jorendorff> for consistency with all the other hooks
  956. # [23:08] <jorendorff> they're all called async in a fresh event loop turn
  957. # [23:08] <Hixie_> wait, it is?
  958. # [23:08] <Hixie_> i thought we established PromiseNew() would synchronously call the executor
  959. # [23:08] <jorendorff> yes
  960. # [23:08] <jorendorff> definitely
  961. # [23:09] * jorendorff looks at the spec text
  962. # [23:09] <Hixie_> PromiseNew() calls InitializePromise() which calls "the [[Call]] internal method of executor with undefined as thisArgument and (resolvingFunctions.[[Resolve]], resolvingFunctions.[[Reject]]) as argumentsList"
  963. # [23:09] <jorendorff> PromiseNew should call its argument synchronously
  964. # [23:09] <jorendorff> just like new Promise(f)
  965. # [23:10] <Hixie_> so then how is that calling it async
  966. # [23:10] <jorendorff> huh, it is totally calling it sync
  967. # [23:10] * jorendorff is confused
  968. # [23:10] <Hixie_> glad it's not just me :-P
  969. # [23:10] <jorendorff> maybe it got "fixed"
  970. # [23:10] <jorendorff> because the old way looked weird
  971. # [23:10] <jorendorff> it was like, why are you creating this pointless promise?
  972. # [23:10] <jorendorff> sorry
  973. # [23:11] <jorendorff> so let's address the spec as it is then
  974. # [23:11] <jorendorff> Hixie_: In that case the main difference between using PromiseNew to call a function
  975. # [23:11] <jorendorff> and just directly calling it
  976. # [23:12] <jorendorff> Hixie_: is that any exceptions thrown by the function are then caught for you and PromiseNew returns a rejected promise
  977. # [23:12] <jorendorff> (step 8 of InitializePromise, called from PromiseNew)
  978. # [23:13] <Hixie_> i was wondering why CallNormalise caught an abrupt termination but then just returned it instead of calling the rejection handler
  979. # [23:13] <Hixie_> i guess it's the same either way
  980. # [23:13] <Hixie_> but ironically in the spec prose it ends up not being automatic since you have to catch all the abrupt terminations
  981. # [23:13] <jorendorff> right. think of it this way
  982. # [23:13] <jorendorff> if you were implementing all this in JS
  983. # [23:13] <jorendorff> you would *definitely* do it this way, because it's quite a bit nicer to have `new Promise()` catch the exception than write a try/catch block
  984. # [23:14] <jorendorff> try/catch being what it is
  985. # [23:16] <Hixie_> ok so. next question then. AddDependencyLoad() takes an argument depLoad. Where does that come from?
  986. # [23:16] <Hixie_> it's called as the callback from a promise that fires once GetOrCreateLoad() has returned, if i'm following this right
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  988. # [23:17] <Hixie_> but GetOrCreateLoad() is just a promise callback, it doesn't resolve a new promise, so what's the value of the promise that gets passed to AddDependencyLoad() ??
  989. # [23:17] <Hixie_> is it the same "name" value as was passed to GetOrCreateLoad() from CallNormalize() ?
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  993. # [23:24] * jorendorff looks
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  995. # [23:29] <jorendorff> Hixie_: ok. PromiseThen does chain, so looking at RequestLoad, we have
  996. # [23:29] <jorendorff> 5. it calls new Promise(CallNormalize) directly
  997. # [23:29] <jorendorff> 8. and calls .then(GetOrCreateLoad) on that
  998. # [23:29] <jorendorff> now back to ProcessLoadDependencies
  999. # [23:30] <jorendorff> 4.e. and we call .then(AddDependencyLoad) on that
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  1002. # [23:31] <jorendorff> CallNormalize figures out the normalized name to use
  1003. # [23:31] <jorendorff> GetOrCreateLoad either finds an already-loaded Module, a Load already in progress, or it kicks off a new Load
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  1005. # [23:33] <jorendorff> AddDependencyLoad adds that as a dependency of this load.
  1006. # [23:33] <Hixie_> jorendorff: with you so far
  1007. # [23:33] <Hixie_> jorendorff: but what's the argument to AddDependencyLoad()? where does it come from?
  1008. # [23:33] <jorendorff> GetOrCreateLoad always returns a Load record, even for an already-loaded Module it just synthesizes one
  1009. # [23:33] <jorendorff> that is the value passed to AddDependencyLoad
  1010. # [23:33] <jorendorff> it's a record
  1011. # [23:33] <Hixie_> oh!
  1012. # [23:34] <Hixie_> the return value of the callback is what sets the argument of the next callback
  1013. # [23:34] <Hixie_> ok
  1014. # [23:34] <jorendorff> yes
  1015. # [23:34] <Hixie_> (if GetOrCreateLoad() wanted to be async, what would it return? a promise? does that then automatically get handled somehow?)
  1016. # [23:34] <jorendorff> yes
  1017. # [23:35] <jorendorff> yes, so suppose you d
  1018. # [23:35] <jorendorff> *you do
  1019. # [23:35] <jorendorff> p1.then(function (v1) {
  1020. # [23:36] <jorendorff> return <<some new Promise called p2>>;
  1021. # [23:36] <jorendorff> }).then(function (v2) {
  1022. # [23:36] <jorendorff> ...and so on...
  1023. # [23:36] <jorendorff> });
  1024. # [23:36] <Hixie_> is it http://people.mozilla.org/~jorendorff/es6-draft.html#sec-promise-resolve-functions that handles this?
  1025. # [23:36] <jorendorff> v2's eventual value is whatever p2 finally settles to
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  1027. # [23:36] <Hixie_> i'm not seeing anything there that checks if the return value is a promise
  1028. # [23:36] <Hixie_> (what if you actually want to return a promise? not just a promise to a value?)
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  1030. # [23:37] <jorendorff> Hixie_: what the spec does instead of "if v is a Promise" is "if v has a callable .then method"
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  1032. # [23:37] <jorendorff> (if you actually want to return a promise... I don't know, I think you're screwed? Domenic?)
  1033. # [23:38] <jorendorff> (some folks thought that was inelegant, but the design already had so much traction in real code, it was kind of a fiat accompli or whatever)
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  1041. # [23:53] <TabAtkins> The current API can't fulfill a promise to a promise, because it always uses the "resolve" algorithm, which automatically slaves to promises. We don't directly expose the "fulfill" algorithm yet, which would allow fulfilling a promise with a promise directly.
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  1047. # Session Close: Sat Aug 09 00:00:00 2014

The end :)