/irc-logs / freenode / #whatwg / 2007-06-21 / end

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  1. # Session Start: Thu Jun 21 00:00:00 2007
  2. # Session Ident: #whatwg
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  15. # [00:46] <zcorpan> http://www.bernzilla.com/item.php?id=875
  16. # [00:48] <Hixie> oops
  17. # [00:48] * Hixie replies to a mail without noticing it was sent to a mailing list
  18. # [00:48] * Hixie whistles innocently and moves on to the next mail
  19. # [00:49] <Hixie> zcorpan: hey, finally someone who agrees with me!
  20. # [00:49] <zcorpan> Hixie: yeah :)
  21. # [00:51] <zcorpan> actually, i feel "dirty" too, i just think that it's not really harmful and authors changing their documents to insert div tags around images to conform to html5 are wasting their time
  22. # [00:51] <Hixie> i was talking to citoyen yesterday about this
  23. # [00:51] <Hixie> the only reason we have <div> is to allow custom widgets to be made
  24. # [00:52] <Hixie> i can't work out how to make it hard to abuse it
  25. # [00:55] <zcorpan> if you make it hard to abuse div, people will abuse something else... :)
  26. # [00:55] <zcorpan> (like table)
  27. # [00:56] <Hixie> <table>, <br>, and <div> are the main ones i'm worried about being abused
  28. # [00:56] <Hixie> <table> is being dealt with by education
  29. # [00:57] <Hixie> moderately successfully, even
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  32. # [00:59] <zcorpan> <br> is a tough one. i don't know how to not use <br> in a forum that accepts bbcode. people want to be able to make one, two, three, many line-breaks. fwiw, they also aren't going to mark up headings in any other manner than pressing the BOLD button and hitting enter
  33. # [01:00] <zcorpan> (well, i guess a heading bbcode tag could be introduced -- that was an aside)
  34. # [01:01] <Hixie> the contents of forum postings are equivalent to wysiwyg editor output
  35. # [01:01] <zcorpan> yeah
  36. # [01:01] <Hixie> i don't know how to handle those either
  37. # [01:01] <zcorpan> it's not trivial
  38. # [01:01] <Hixie> the <meta generator> idea didn't go down well
  39. # [01:01] <zcorpan> indeed
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  43. # [01:04] <zcorpan> about div and what it means... perhaps when it contains block-level content, it means nothing, and when it contains inline-level content, it means a thematic group
  44. # [01:05] <zcorpan> or it always means a thematic group
  45. # [01:05] <Hixie> isn't that what <section> is?
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  47. # [01:05] <zcorpan> section affects the document outline, div doesn't
  48. # [01:06] <Hixie> i suppose i could buy your block vs inline semantics definition
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  50. # [01:07] <Hixie> but when it contains blocks, it really means nothing, imho
  51. # [01:07] <Hixie> that, btw, is why i didn't want it containing inlines in the first place
  52. # [01:07] <zcorpan> yeah
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  54. # [01:09] <Hixie> if <div>-containing-inline is "thematic group", what's the difference between <div> and <p>?
  55. # [01:09] <Hixie> maybe i should just bite the bullet and make them equivalent in the spec
  56. # [01:09] <Hixie> <div>-containing-inline and <p>, i mean
  57. # [01:09] <Hixie> not <div>-containing-block
  58. # [01:10] <zcorpan> i would be ok with that
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  63. # [01:27] <zcorpan> Hixie: somehow your scripts converted "<code title="attr-style-scoped">scoped</code> attribute" to "<code title=attr-style-scoped><a href="#scoped"></a></code>"
  64. # [01:28] <Hixie> i probably edited the file while the thing was being generated
  65. # [01:28] <Hixie> i'm using bert's script to do the cross-references
  66. # [01:28] <Hixie> it runs on cgi.w3.org
  67. # [01:28] <Hixie> and takes three years per generetion
  68. # [01:28] <zcorpan> ok :)
  69. # [01:29] <Hixie> and i have to do two each time i do a checkin (one for the w3.org version and one for the whatwg.org version)
  70. # [01:30] <zcorpan> oh yep
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  72. # [01:31] <Hixie> so that's six years :-P
  73. # [01:32] <Hixie> yeah, looks like i changed the file while i was generating it
  74. # [01:32] <Hixie> d'oh
  75. # [01:32] <Hixie> oh well
  76. # [01:32] <Hixie> fixed
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  83. # [01:41] <Hixie> i wonder why i used a different technique for <xmp> as for the other CDATA elements
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  89. # [02:01] <webben> Hixie: If div may be used for custom widgets (as it is in the wild), then treating div with inline children like p would presumably break paragraph to paragraph navigation.
  90. # [02:02] <webben> Is your current view that div-as-custom-widget be conforming, non-conforming but specified, or non-conforming and unspecified?
  91. # [02:03] <webben> Hixie: Having said that, it might be worth defining special parsing for p containing certain children, such as blockquote.
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  93. # [02:03] <webben> (where stuff which can go into print paragraphs cannot go into text/html paragraphs)
  94. # [02:04] <webben> *special parsing for div containing certain children, sorry
  95. # [02:04] <Hixie> webben: conforming but discouraged in favour of things like xbl2
  96. # [02:06] <webben> Hixie: How about processing WAI-ARIA attributes for such widgets then?
  97. # [02:06] <webben> which category would that fall into?
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  99. # [02:11] <webben> btw examples of paragraph-by-paragraph navigation include: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/2266 and http://images.apple.com/accessibility/voiceover/pdf/VoiceOverKeyboard_Color_v2.pdf and http://www.rnib.org.uk/xpedio/groups/public/documents/PublicWebsite/public_rnib003398.hcsp and http://www.gwmicro.com/window-eyes/manual/html/index.html?appendix_a_1.htm (though note this doesn't necessarily equal navigation by <p>)
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  101. # [02:11] <webben> e.g. "Window-Eyes defines paragraphs as any collection of elements that contain blank space both above and below the collection, regardless of whether that collection contains text, or any other element."
  102. # [02:12] <Hixie> i don't really understand any of your questions :-)
  103. # [02:12] <Hixie> we already have, e.g., <li> defined to be a paragraph
  104. # [02:12] <Hixie> i don't understand what the processing of WAI-ARIA would get us (they're woefully underdefined and redundant with most of what's already in HTML anyway)
  105. # [02:14] <webben> Hixie: It seems to be a fundamental premise of WAI-ARIA to prefer native widgets where available (which seems to be exactly the same as the position you're suggesting WHATWG adopt). WAI-ARIA is clearly not redundant for custom widgets since they aren't in HTML.
  106. # [02:14] <webben> Hixie: They don't seem to be so underdefined that Mozilla and AT can't implement them.
  107. # [02:15] <webben> Does WHATWG have an alternative proposal for accessifying such widgets in current browsers and AT?
  108. # [02:16] <Hixie> WAI-ARIA is redundant for most (all?) the widgets it supports, as they are all defined in HTML5 as far as I can tell.
  109. # [02:17] <webben> Hixie: WAI-ARIA doesn't support just a set of widgets but also a set of properties and states. Can Dojo use HTML5 widgets in current UAs and have them look as "nice" as their existing widget set?
  110. # [02:18] <webben> Mozilla doesn't seem to support some of the more basic HTML5 widgets yet ... e.g. slider.
  111. # [02:19] <othermaciej_> HTML5 doesn't define how to do widgets with custom look or behavior (in itself)
  112. # [02:19] <Hixie> they are underdefined, for example it is not at all clear what it would mean if you had a document with a wairole:treeitem as a child of a waitrole:checkbox or some such
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  114. # [02:19] <Hixie> WAI-ARIA and HTML5 both define new technologies, and therefore don't work in legacy UA ATs
  115. # [02:19] <webben> Hixie: Legacy UA AT != current UA ATs
  116. # [02:19] <Hixie> by "Legacy UA AT" i mean the currento nes
  117. # [02:20] <Hixie> ones
  118. # [02:20] <Hixie> as opposed to the ones that support the technologies in question
  119. # [02:22] <webben> Hixie: The breakage is not the same. You cannot write Dojo widgets in HTML5 and get them to look "nice" in IE. But you can write Dojo widgets and get them to look "nice" in all modern browsers, but also be accessible in Mozilla (and thus to major AT).
  120. # [02:22] * othermaciej_ is now known as othermaciej
  121. # [02:23] <Hixie> i disagree, but that's not really important
  122. # [02:23] <webben> With which bit? The cannot or the can?
  123. # [02:23] <Hixie> that you can't use the HTML5 elements and have them look good in IE
  124. # [02:24] <Hixie> it's just a matter of using the right elements and then replacing them in script with whatever you want to replace them with
  125. # [02:24] <Hixie> but anyway, i'm more interested in the long term solution to this
  126. # [02:24] <Hixie> which is, imho, to use xbl2 and html5
  127. # [02:24] <othermaciej> (or just CSS styling of form controls for simple cases if there's ever sufficiently interoperable support for that)
  128. # [02:24] <Hixie> yeah
  129. # [02:25] <Hixie> imho the wai-aria/role stuff is a distraction that is merely slowing the adoption rate for the long-term solutions
  130. # [02:25] <Hixie> wai-aria/role aren't scalable, and are far too complicated to implement by most authors
  131. # [02:25] <othermaciej> well, the long-term solutions are much more complex in terms of required browser engineering to deploy
  132. # [02:26] <Hixie> right
  133. # [02:26] <webben> Hixie: I doubt accessibility is the major driver for XBL2 adoption, so I doubt that's the case.
  134. # [02:26] <Hixie> the complexity is placed in the UAs, rather than the authors
  135. # [02:26] <webben> Hixie: Custom widgets are too complicated to implement by most authors full stop.
  136. # [02:26] <webben> (XBL2 is way too complex)
  137. # [02:26] <Hixie> (that's the right way to do it, it reduces the total implementation cost to the human race)
  138. # [02:26] <Hixie> anyway, gotta go, meeting
  139. # [02:26] <Hixie> bbl
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  148. # [03:09] * Philip` finally gets his multiplayer FPS working cross-browser (or at least across two browsers)
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  159. # [04:06] * Philip` gets up support for three browsers, which is plenty to say that any problems in other browsers are their fault and not mine
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  194. # [09:14] <hsivonen> annevk: svn co http://svn.versiondude.net/whattf/htmlparser/trunk/ htmlparser
  195. # [09:15] <hsivonen> finally got a sane ACL there
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  199. # [09:48] <zcorpan> Hixie: "Comment parsing is different." -- not anymore, right? only three parsing quirks left :)
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  203. # [10:25] <Hixie> don't kill me
  204. # [10:26] <Hixie> but i'm about to check in major changes to the way <head> is parsed
  205. # [10:26] <Hixie> zcorpan: that i know of :-)
  206. # [10:26] <Hixie> jesus, this is a 1000 line patch
  207. # [10:29] <annevk> dude
  208. # [10:29] <annevk> well, I suppose it gives me some more hacking fun :)
  209. # [10:30] <annevk> or is this the patch that makes EOF work and gives the tree construction stage just a set of phases
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  211. # [10:32] <annevk> seems it does indeed take three years before such things make it in :)
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  214. # [10:38] <Hixie> no, it's the change that allows <noscript> in <head>
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  216. # [10:38] <annevk> oh
  217. # [10:38] <Hixie> btw you might want to give more context for the patches on the tracker page, some of these changes are hard to follow if you don't have 20+ lines of context
  218. # [10:39] <annevk> svn diff ...?
  219. # [10:39] <Hixie> ironically i think the change to fold phases and insertion modes into one might be simpler -- except it'd probably introduce more bugs :-)
  220. # [10:39] <Hixie> dunno what the svn diff command is
  221. # [10:39] <annevk> that should be trivial to fix, if someone gives me the relevant command line options
  222. # [10:39] <Hixie> i use regular gnu diff
  223. # [10:39] <Hixie> in ~/.subversion/config
  224. # [10:40] <Hixie> i have, under [helpers]:
  225. # [10:40] <Hixie> diff-cmd = /home/ianh/.subversion/diff
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  227. # [10:40] <Hixie> and that file contains:
  228. # [10:40] <annevk> hmm, I'll figure something out
  229. # [10:40] <Hixie> #!/bin/bash
  230. # [10:40] <Hixie> diff=/usr/bin/diff
  231. # [10:40] <Hixie> args="-u20 --new-file --minimal --show-c-function"
  232. # [10:40] <Hixie> exec ${diff} ${args} "$@"
  233. # [10:40] * Quits: othermaciej (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  234. # [10:40] <Hixie> (--show-c-function isn't useful for the spec)
  235. # [10:40] * Joins: weinigLap (n=weinig@c-67-188-89-242.hsd1.ca.comcast.net)
  236. # [10:44] <Hixie> this checkin makes <head> element parsing much simpler
  237. # [10:44] <Hixie> though it does add a state
  238. # [10:46] <Hixie> right, checked in
  239. # [10:50] <hsivonen> Hixie: FYI, http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/%7Edistler/blog/archives/001324.html in case it didn't appear on your radar already
  240. # [10:54] <annevk> hmm, in theory scripting does not have to be enabled for fragment parsing
  241. # [10:54] <Hixie> hsivonen: i love how some of hte most important issues are relagated to a footnote
  242. # [10:55] <Hixie> annevk: indeed, not any more, not now that it's been abstracted out
  243. # [10:55] <Hixie> the only case i think we don't currently handle is error-handling of <noscript> contents in <head> when parsing is disabled and you're doing fragment parsing for a <head>
  244. # [10:55] <Hixie> not sure i want to both fixing it though
  245. # [10:56] * Joins: Dashimon (i=Dashiva@v035b.studby.ntnu.no)
  246. # [10:57] <annevk> yeah, I was reading the diff and spotted that edge case you mentioned there :)
  247. # [10:57] * Quits: Dashiva (i=Dashiva@v035b.studby.ntnu.no) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
  248. # [10:57] * Dashimon is now known as Dashiva
  249. # [11:00] <Hixie> right well, with that checkin, let's try sleeping again
  250. # [11:00] <Hixie> nn
  251. # [11:00] <annevk> g'night
  252. # [11:02] <hsivonen> nn
  253. # [11:06] * Joins: ROBOd (n=robod@86.34.246.154)
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  258. # [11:38] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jun/0023.html ...
  259. # [11:42] <zcorpan> oh, so it is modularization that makes xhtml. well then, xhtml 1.0 needs a new name, too
  260. # [11:42] <annevk> these discussions don't make sense to me at all
  261. # [11:43] <annevk> but I'm not going to get involved
  262. # [11:48] * moeffju[ZzZz] is now known as moeffju
  263. # [11:51] <zcorpan> so xhtml2 is not terribly different from xhtml1.1, and thus doesn't need a new namespace. html5 however slightly changes the semantics of <i>, and thus needs a new namespace. yep. makes sense.
  264. # [11:52] <annevk> it's not like they don't change the semantics of <input>
  265. # [11:52] * zcorpan goes back to writing test cases
  266. # [11:57] <othermaciej> zcorpan: xhtml2 is more backwards-compatible than html5!
  267. # [11:57] <othermaciej> zcorpan: haven't you heard?
  268. # [11:57] <zcorpan> othermaciej: yeah
  269. # [11:57] <othermaciej> also, all XHTMLs have always been modular
  270. # [11:58] <othermaciej> (except the one people actually use on the web)
  271. # [12:00] <zcorpan> i would love to see his comparison though
  272. # [12:06] <othermaciej> well, HTML5 slightly changes the semantics of the <i> element and XHTML2 removes it
  273. # [12:06] <othermaciej> so there's one example where XHTML2 is more compatible
  274. # [12:07] <othermaciej> HTML5 adds some new event listener attributes but XHTML2 removes them all and replaces them with XML Events, so there's another example
  275. # [12:09] <zcorpan> then obviously there are different interpretations on what backwards-compatibility means. is it compatibility with existing UAs or compatibility with prior specs?
  276. # [12:09] <othermaciej> well, XHTML2 doesn't have either
  277. # [12:09] <zcorpan> true
  278. # [12:11] <othermaciej> but it does have modules
  279. # [12:11] <othermaciej> maybe it is compatible in the sense that you could mix and match modules from XHTML 1.1 and XHTML 2 when making your web-fragmenting frankenlanguage profile
  280. # [12:12] <zcorpan> perhaps you would use server-side check if the UA supports xhtml2, and if not, you serve xhtml1.1
  281. # [12:13] <zcorpan> or use xslt
  282. # [12:18] * Joins: met_ (n=Hassman@b14-4.vscht.cz)
  283. # [12:19] <annevk> hmm, if citations of minutes are out of context than the minutes have not been done properly...
  284. # [12:19] <zcorpan> Hixie: <noscript><meta http-equiv=refresh> ?
  285. # [12:20] <met_> Steven: I believe that XHTML2 is more backwards compatible than HTML5, and I plan to make a document comparing them to demonstrate it. (cannot iin the irc log see the note about document preparing)
  286. # [12:21] * met_ just comparing http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-xhtml-minutes#item05 and http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/xhtml/20070620
  287. # [12:23] <annevk> interesting
  288. # [12:24] <annevk> they must have edited things
  289. # [12:24] <annevk> not in http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-xhtml-irc either
  290. # [12:43] <annevk> Ok, http://html5.org/tools/web-apps-tracker now has -up20 enabled and an updated title
  291. # [12:43] <annevk> I'll commit the changes
  292. # [12:48] <annevk> let me know if it is too much context
  293. # [12:48] <annevk> it takes some time for me to get used to it
  294. # [12:48] <annevk> at least
  295. # [13:01] * othermaciej is now known as om_sleep
  296. # [13:31] <zcorpan> htmlcollections are fun
  297. # [13:32] <annevk> and browsers are broken?
  298. # [13:32] <zcorpan> no, they work fine, although they don't interoperate on some points
  299. # [13:33] <zcorpan> for document.links, firefox only filters for <area href> when there is a <map> ancestor
  300. # [13:34] <zcorpan> for document.anchors, ie filters for <a> elements with a non-empty id or name attribute
  301. # [13:34] <annevk> that makes sense
  302. # [13:36] <zcorpan> what ie does for .anchors?
  303. # [13:36] <Philip`> When the spec says HTMLCollection has "a [[Get]] method that, ... when invoked with a property name that is a string, acts like the namedItem() method would when invoked with that argument", isn't that wrong because collection['item'] gives the item function and is not the same as collection.namedItem('item')?
  304. # [13:37] <zcorpan> haven't tested namedItem yet
  305. # [13:37] <zcorpan> only which elements that are filtered for so far
  306. # [13:37] <zcorpan> not done with all collections either
  307. # [13:38] <zcorpan> should get some lunch first
  308. # [13:39] <annevk> Philip`, same goes for collection["length"]; I guess that will be solved once [[Get]] is defined at the IDL-level instead of paragraph-level
  309. # [13:39] <Philip`> Oh, actually, <b id=item></b> ... c = getElementsByTagName('b'); c['item'] gives the HTML element in IE6 and Opera, but gives the item function in Firefox
  310. # [13:39] <annevk> ooh
  311. # [13:40] <annevk> cool
  312. # [13:40] <Philip`> (If nothing has id=item, then IE6 and Opera give the item function)
  313. # [13:40] <annevk> not cool
  314. # [13:51] * Joins: mw22 (n=chatzill@h8441169151.dsl.speedlinq.nl)
  315. # [13:55] <Philip`> Hmm, there's loads of ways it doesn't match IE6 - there's interesting behaviour in <a id=x></a><a id=null></a><a id=10></a> ... c[null]; c.item(null); c.namedItem(null); c[10]; c["10"]; c.item(10); c.item("10");
  316. # [14:00] * Quits: om_sleep (n=mjs@dsl081-048-145.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net)
  317. # [14:02] * Quits: met_ (n=Hassman@b14-4.vscht.cz) ("Chemists never die, they just stop reacting.")
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  322. # [14:59] * Joins: Fuzzy76 (i=fuzzy76@matilda.td.org.uit.no)
  323. # [15:02] * Joins: Lachy (n=Lachy@203-158-59-119.dyn.iinet.net.au)
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  325. # [15:20] <annevk> interesting
  326. # [15:20] <annevk> for namedItem() it stringifies and for item() it makes itself 0
  327. # [15:20] <annevk> for c[] it throws
  328. # [15:22] <annevk> hmm... item("10") is weird
  329. # [15:22] <annevk> so is item("null")
  330. # [15:26] * Quits: syp| (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
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  333. # [15:31] <Philip`> Ooh, I never knew you could do something like Object.prototype.toString.call(ctx) to work out the [[Class]] of an object
  334. # [15:31] * Joins: syp| (n=syp@lasigpc9.epfl.ch)
  335. # [15:33] * Joins: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@u-211000159129.hotspot.ne.jp)
  336. # [15:37] <Lachy> annevk, don't you agree with my answer to the .match(":root") matching in document fragments?
  337. # [15:40] * Quits: karlUshi (n=karl@124-144-94-188.rev.home.ne.jp) ("Where dwelt Ymir, or wherein did he find sustenance?")
  338. # [15:41] <annevk> dunno
  339. # [15:41] <annevk> didn't follow all of the discussion
  340. # [15:42] <Lachy> oh, well, read my last post on member-webapi
  341. # [15:42] <annevk> wtf
  342. # [15:42] <annevk> _member_?!
  343. # [15:42] <annevk> bah
  344. # [15:42] <Lachy> yeah, sorry
  345. # [15:42] <Lachy> I didn't start the discussion there, just responded to it
  346. # [15:43] * Joins: maikmerten (n=maikmert@T6ca4.t.pppool.de)
  347. # [15:43] <annevk> hmm, ok
  348. # [15:43] <annevk> it still clashes with the definition of root in HTML5 for lonely elements
  349. # [15:44] <annevk> but maybe that doesn't matter
  350. # [15:44] * zcorpan wonders what Lachy's answer was
  351. # [15:45] <annevk> zcorpan, you should be able to look it up now that you're working for Opera
  352. # [15:45] <annevk> zcorpan, if you're in an Opera office that is
  353. # [15:45] <Lachy> zcorpan: basically that in fragments that aren't part of a document, there is no root element
  354. # [15:46] <Lachy> so :root matches nothing
  355. # [15:46] <zcorpan> annevk: how?
  356. # [15:46] <zcorpan> Lachy: ok. makes sense
  357. # [15:46] <annevk> zcorpan, IP white-listing
  358. # [15:46] <Philip`> (Oh, that Object.prototype.toString thing doesn't work in IE (since that just says "[object Object]" all the time), so I guess it's not so helpful for people who care about testing IE :-( )
  359. # [15:47] <zcorpan> annevk: i don't follow
  360. # [15:48] <Lachy> this one explains it best, if you're able to access it http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-webapi/2007Jun/0019.html
  361. # [15:48] <zcorpan> i'm not
  362. # [15:48] <annevk> oh, maybe the swedes are not whitelisted
  363. # [15:48] * annevk ponders
  364. # [15:51] <Lachy> perhaps I should ask the CSSWG for clarification
  365. # [16:04] * Quits: Ducki (n=Alex@dialin-145-254-186-021.pools.arcor-ip.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
  366. # [16:25] * Joins: SavageX (n=maikmert@T656b.t.pppool.de)
  367. # [16:31] * Lachy mails www-style about the issue
  368. # [16:32] <Lachy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2007Jun/0116.html
  369. # [16:33] * Joins: billmason (n=billmaso@ip156.unival.com)
  370. # [16:35] <annevk> I'm not sure I argued. I just pointed out that that's what HTML5 says
  371. # [16:35] <annevk> or HTML5 defines as the "root element"
  372. # [16:35] * Joins: yod (n=ot@65.42.208.133)
  373. # [16:37] <Lachy> yeah, but Jonas still didn't agree, so I decided it would be worth asking anyway
  374. # [16:38] <Lachy> where does HTML5 actually define the root element?
  375. # [16:40] <Lachy> it does here http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#the-root but that doesn't really apply to fragments in general
  376. # [16:41] <Lachy> there it is http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/#root-element
  377. # [16:41] * Quits: maikmerten (n=maikmert@T6ca4.t.pppool.de) (Read error: 113 (No route to host))
  378. # [16:42] <annevk> that definition doesn't really cover subtrees outside the document though or document fragments
  379. # [16:43] <Lachy> it sort of does. it calls them orphaned nodes
  380. # [17:01] <zcorpan> fun! <table><form><tr><td><textarea>, then check form.elements
  381. # [17:03] <Lachy> it contains the textarea. Isn't that the expected behaviour?
  382. # [17:03] <zcorpan> not in the dom it doesn't
  383. # [17:03] <annevk> it does per HTML5
  384. # [17:04] <annevk> note how the form element pointer is set
  385. # [17:04] <Lachy> yeah, but I had a feeling HTML5 adds it to the forms collections anyway
  386. # [17:04] <annevk> and if that's not the case, it's a bug :)
  387. # [17:04] * annevk checks
  388. # [17:04] <zcorpan> annevk: it will probably be the case when wf2 is merged
  389. # [17:05] <annevk> I meant in the parser
  390. # [17:05] <zcorpan> oh sure
  391. # [17:05] <annevk> I suppose form.elements will be defined in terms of the form element pointer
  392. # [17:05] <zcorpan> yeah. it's not right now though
  393. # [17:06] <zcorpan> wf2 says to look at the ancestors and the form="" attribute
  394. # [17:07] <annevk> fair enough
  395. # [17:07] <annevk> <form> parsing prolly needs more testing than this
  396. # [17:08] <annevk> than it had so far
  397. # [17:09] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jun/0026.html
  398. # [17:10] <annevk> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-xhtml2/2007Jun/0025.html is nice too
  399. # [17:10] <annevk> "nice"
  400. # [17:12] <Philip`> Call it X-HTML5, because it's the XML version of HTML5, so people shouldn't object to that, and then just accidentally drop the hyphen every time you use the name
  401. # [17:12] * Quits: yod (n=ot@65.42.208.133) ("Leaving")
  402. # [17:13] <annevk> 1) I haven't seen it cause much confusion. 2) Not all XHTML languages are modular. 3) You want a short name for "XML serialization of HTML5"
  403. # [17:14] <annevk> 1) see http://blogsearch.google.com/blogsearch?q=xhtml5 2) see XHTML 1.0 and 3) well...
  404. # [17:14] * annevk -> food
  405. # [17:15] * Joins: duryodhan (n=chatzill@221.128.138.10)
  406. # [17:16] * Quits: MikeSmith (n=MikeSmit@u-211000159129.hotspot.ne.jp) ("Less talk, more pimp walk.")
  407. # [17:16] <duryodhan> Philip`: your page canvex.illuminati... the one you had said yesterday ...
  408. # [17:16] <duryodhan> I was able to use it from my work comp
  409. # [17:17] <duryodhan> (i.e school comp )
  410. # [17:17] <Philip`> The http://canvex.lazyilluminati.com/misc/drawwindow.html one?
  411. # [17:17] <duryodhan> I dont know how there it didn't give exception ...
  412. # [17:17] <duryodhan> yeah that one
  413. # [17:17] <duryodhan> from my home it is giving exception
  414. # [17:17] <Philip`> Hmm, sounds odd
  415. # [17:17] <duryodhan> I couldn't contact from school cos it behind a proxy ... IRC blocked :(
  416. # [17:18] <Philip`> Given the danger of letting random web sites show the user a dialog box which they won't read and where they'll click on either button at random to make the dialog box go away, when clicking the wrong button will give the web site complete control over the user's computer, I would expect it to be blocked by default...
  417. # [17:18] <duryodhan> yes ... that is true ...
  418. # [17:18] <duryodhan> but the thing is ...
  419. # [17:19] <duryodhan> it worked
  420. # [17:19] <duryodhan> :D
  421. # [17:19] * duryodhan is also suprised how good chatzilla is
  422. # [17:19] <Philip`> But if it works when it shouldn't, that's probably a bug :-)
  423. # [17:19] <Philip`> (or a weird configuration option)
  424. # [17:19] <duryodhan> exactly ...
  425. # [17:20] <duryodhan> what is that weird config ?
  426. # [17:20] <duryodhan> I can probably get away with asking ppl to do it
  427. # [17:20] <duryodhan> rofl
  428. # [17:21] <duryodhan> brb
  429. # [17:21] <Philip`> about:config -> signed.applets.codebase_principal_support = true enables it
  430. # [17:21] * Quits: duryodhan (n=chatzill@221.128.138.10) ("ChatZilla 0.9.78.1 [Firefox 2.0.0.1/2006120814]")
  431. # [17:22] * Joins: duryodhan (n=chatzill@221.128.138.10)
  432. # [17:22] <duryodhan> Philip`: aaah
  433. # [17:23] <duryodhan> signed.applets.codebase_principal_support
  434. # [17:23] <Lachy> LOL :-D "Steven: I believe that XHTML2 is more backwards compatible than HTML5, and I plan to make a document comparing them to demonstrate it." -- http://www.w3.org/2007/06/20-xhtml-minutes#item05
  435. # [17:23] <duryodhan> toggle that and you are golden
  436. # [17:23] <duryodhan> Lachy: well
  437. # [17:23] <Philip`> duryodhan: Toggle that and you're also much less secure :-)
  438. # [17:23] <duryodhan> I believe i can fly ....
  439. # [17:24] <duryodhan> Philip`: not me ... client :D
  440. # [17:24] <duryodhan> Philip`: not less secure ... you should just stop clicking OK blindly
  441. # [17:24] <Lachy> duryodhan: will you produce a document comparing your ability to fly with mine to demonstrate that?
  442. # [17:24] <duryodhan> Lachy: I will even make a canvas base64 image of it for you
  443. # [17:24] <duryodhan> rofl
  444. # [17:25] <Lachy> oh, I'm intrigued now.
  445. # [17:27] <Philip`> duryodhan: As far as I can see, codebase_principal_support doesn't directly make anything less secure - it just allows sites to ask for privileges without being identifiable (i.e. not using certificates and stuff)
  446. # [17:27] <Lachy> I'm confused by the XHTML2 WG's strange belief that altering the semantics slightly makes a language not backwards compatible, whereas completely changing processing requirements like XHTML2 does remains compatible
  447. # [17:27] <duryodhan> Philip`: that is what I was reading up on ...
  448. # [17:27] <duryodhan> Philip`: so If I maybe sign my scripts ....
  449. # [17:28] <duryodhan> Philip`: then maybe it will ask even if that config isn't toggled...
  450. # [17:28] <duryodhan> btw, if you are wondering where in the world I found this obscure option ... see the XML Digital Signature tool Firefox add on
  451. # [17:28] <Philip`> Lachy: It might help if they were clearer on what "backward compatibility" they had in mind (like old/new conforming/nonconforming documents in new/old UAs, with UAs implementing latest/all specification, etc)
  452. # [17:29] <Philip`> (because it seems you get different constraints and conclusions depending on which forms of compatibility you're interested in)
  453. # [17:29] <Lachy> I'll ask steven. I'm waiting for him to get back so I can speak to him in #xhtml
  454. # [17:30] <Philip`> duryodhan: http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/components/signed-scripts.html talks about Codebase Principals, which seems relevant here
  455. # [17:31] * duryodhan wonders why chatzilla links didn't open in a new tab
  456. # [17:33] <duryodhan> Philip`: I am still reading but at a glance it seems my hunch was right , that signing scripts would then not require me to enable codebase_principal support
  457. # [17:41] * Joins: h3h (n=w3rd@66-162-32-234.static.twtelecom.net)
  458. # [17:44] <Lachy> duryodhan: if you want links in chatzilla to open a new tab, you need to middle click them
  459. # [17:44] <duryodhan> yeah
  460. # [17:44] <duryodhan> I realised that now
  461. # [17:45] <duryodhan> I thought It would act as if an outisde app is opening page
  462. # [17:45] <duryodhan> (and thus firefox owuld open it in a new tab/window according to my prefs )
  463. # [17:46] <Lachy> yeah, it's a little unintuitive. It should follow that pref
  464. # [17:46] <Lachy> but it's not technically an external application
  465. # [17:46] * Philip` uses the high-tech strategy of selecting text from IRC in the terminal window, copying, switching to a browser window, opening a new tab, pasting, adding the h at the beginning that usually got missed when selecting the address, then pressing enter
  466. # [17:49] <Lachy> Philip`: which IRC client are you using?
  467. # [17:50] <Philip`> Lachy: Irssi
  468. # [17:51] <Lachy> oh. I tried that, but gave up on it cause I couldn't click on links
  469. # [17:51] <Philip`> Oh :-)
  470. # [17:51] <gavin_> terminal.app lets me click on links when I use irssi :)
  471. # [17:52] <Lachy> I'm using chatzilla at the moment. I used to use xchat on my mac, but my mac is faulty and keeps freezing
  472. # [17:54] * Philip` is just running in Konsole
  473. # [17:54] <Philip`> Ooh, Klipper helps - if I turn its 'actions' on, I can double-click a link and it pops up a little menu with options like "Open in Konqueror", "Open in Mozilla", "Open in Firefox"
  474. # [17:55] <Philip`> though somehow I've messed up Konqueror so when I try visiting a web site in it, it saves it to a temporary file and opens Opera instead
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  480. # [18:11] <h3h> ugh, versioning revisited
  481. # [18:14] <Philip`> I don't really see why document validity should be a goal in itself
  482. # [18:14] <h3h> it shouldn't
  483. # [18:14] <h3h> it's help as a means to an end
  484. # [18:16] <Philip`> Then, I don't really see why someone would think document validity is a goal in itself (but it seems some do think that)
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  513. # [21:48] <othermaciej> does anyone know where to find the latest editor's draft of xhtml2?
  514. # [21:48] <othermaciej> the most recent I could find is this: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2007/ED-xhtml2-20070402/
  515. # [21:49] <othermaciej> I assume it is in w3c cvs somewhere though
  516. # [21:54] <Hixie> do people really think that "XHTML2 and XHTML5" is bad but "XHTML2 and XHTML1.5" is good? especially given the reality of the 5>2 thing?
  517. # [21:55] <Hixie> i'd have thought 1.5 would be more confusing for authors ("clearly XHTML2 is what i should be using, XHTML1.5 is not as new as XHTML2")
  518. # [21:58] <othermaciej> I personally don't care either way
  519. # [21:59] <othermaciej> the XHTML 2 WG seems to hate the idea of any use of the XHTML name
  520. # [21:59] <Hixie> yeah that's more of a problem
  521. # [22:02] <Hixie> as you say in e-mail, the namespace part is worse
  522. # [22:02] <Hixie> though i personally think it's a non-issue
  523. # [22:02] <Hixie> let them include a fatal flaw in their language
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  525. # [22:02] <Hixie> it won't affect us in the slightest
  526. # [22:02] <Hixie> all it will do is guarentee nobody implements xhtml2
  527. # [22:03] <othermaciej> I don't mind them using it
  528. # [22:03] <othermaciej> but they want us to change our namespace
  529. # [22:03] <Hixie> oh
  530. # [22:03] <Hixie> well
  531. # [22:03] <othermaciej> because XHTML2 is more compatible
  532. # [22:03] <Hixie> that's not even really up for debate
  533. # [22:03] <Hixie> i wouldn't pay that much mind
  534. # [22:03] <Hixie> there's no way tim would side with them on that
  535. # [22:04] <Hixie> i mean, even if by some fluke of reality distortion fields the htmlwg was forced not to use that namespace, i would just make the htmlwg spec not mention the namespace and let the whatwg one handle it
  536. # [22:04] <Hixie> it's not an issue
  537. # [22:05] <othermaciej> I don't think so either, that's why I think it is ok to ignore them and let the Director settle it if needed
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  549. # [22:55] <Hixie> http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/xhtml/20070530#l-172
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  551. # [22:56] <jruderman> why is safari's "view source" command disabled on that page?
  552. # [22:57] <Hixie> safari doesn't enable it until the page has finished loading
  553. # [23:00] <jruderman> it seems finished
  554. # [23:02] <Hixie> hm, i learn more about what the htmlwg is doing from the secretive chairs list than i do from the public list
  555. # [23:02] <Hixie> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/2007AprJun/0203.html
  556. # [23:03] <Hixie> that's sad
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  558. # [23:05] <Hixie> hm, othermaciej was looking for a list of xhtml2 documents and their status, including latest editor's drafts, it seems that's here: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/Overview.html
  559. # [23:05] * aroben_ is now known as aroben
  560. # [23:09] <Philip`> That makes it sound like the editor's drafts listed there are constantly updated to always be the latest version, but then it looks a bit odd that the latest XHTML2 one is two months old
  561. # [23:09] <Philip`> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/autoPublication.html is slightly sparse on the details, sadly :-(
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  563. # [23:25] <Hixie> i think it's probably accurate that the draft hasn't been updated since april
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  570. # [23:48] <Hixie> othermaciej: < Hixie>|hm, othermaciej was looking for a list of xhtml2 documents and their status, including latest
  571. # [23:48] <Hixie> editor's drafts, it seems that's here: http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Drafts/Overview.html
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  573. # [23:51] <othermaciej> Hixie: thanks
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  575. # [23:51] <othermaciej> Hixie: I was wondering if they'd changed the namespace URI yet, it looks like not
  576. # [23:51] * duryodhan_ is now known as duryodhan
  577. # [23:51] <othermaciej> Hixie: even though they have been saying for a long time that they don't have a different namespace
  578. # Session Close: Fri Jun 22 00:00:00 2007

The end :)